The big bad evils of Tyria. *SPOILERS*

[mandala.8507]

15 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I'd be far more con cerned our character didn't challenge the fact a deal was on the table to save Tyria. Sure we were incapicated, but Peitha's took a decision affecting our world and decided it for us. We seem to be swept up in a battle not of our own and I'm disconnected even more as to why.

She didn't decide anything. Labris intervened before any discussion could be had and sacrificed herself to Eparch. Peitha's "Oh?" could be interpreted both as a sarcastic dismissal of his offer, but also as genuine surprise that Labris would be the key to getting him to negotiate, which she makes clear by commenting on her being a weakness in his armor.

It's at this point that Labris stops the conversation from going any further and forces Eparch's hand by taking herself off the table.

Again, no decision was made because Labris intervened and shut the talks down right away.

[Zera.9435]

17 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I'd be far more con cerned our character didn't challenge the fact a deal was on the table to save Tyria. Sure we were incapicated, but Peitha's took a decision affecting our world and decided it for us. We seem to be swept up in a battle not of our own and I'm disconnected even more as to why.

Wow I didn't even think about this. Good point. Then again, the deal wasn't good to begin with. The deal was let the queen go, and Peitha is exiled to Tyria, and Tyria is spared. The Kryptis will continue to be subjugated by Eparch, however. Peitha is supposedly trying to liberate the Kryptis from Eparch's rule. I say supposedly because I think there is still room for Peitha to turn around and betray us after we get rid of Eparch, kind of like mister "Would you kindly..." from Bioshock.

[Doam.8305]

12 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

You'll need to watch more anime to know the complexity of demons and their society. 😆

That's a really bad example and actually proves the OP right

Western demons be making deals, playing fiddles, and stealing souls while in a nice suit
Anime demons be BESERK, HELLSING, and even the lighter anime like Bleach: Hellverse don't have the modern Disney tropes. Even the ones that do give the Disney treatment to demons like Demon Slayer only do so at the demons death when they get their humanity returned. Humanizing demons isn't supposed to be a thing unlike monsters like Vampires, Werewolves, and such Demon mythology isn't derived from a human. 

[mandala.8507]

I mean, this thread is actually the biggest compliment to the writers, when you think about it. The scenario they constructed concerning the innate prejudice toward the Kryptis was so compelling that the sentiments they are depicting in-game of prejudiced Astral Ward members mirror almost exactly the sentiments of some of the playerbase that can't see past the label "demon" and reorient to what it does and doesn't truly say about each individual Kryptis they come across.

Suffering from success, imo.

"They're demons, they're supposed to be-", *buzzer sound* Wrong. You failed the test, try again.

First introducing them to us via a violent insurgence really teed everyone up to develop negative preconceptions about the Kryptis. It's really interesting to play back through some of the conversations we have with Peitha from the initial SotO chapters and recognize the Commander working through deconstructing their perception of demons with her in real time, and how she weaponizes that initial prejudice and our double-edged fear to keep herself safe and our mouth shut for as long as possible.

[Squee.7829]

17 hours ago, GBEW.5947 said:

Joko was a side character that the community seems to worship for some reason even though this studio butchered his character, The entire raid through his palace was more of a comedy festival than anything and that can work, but you've already painted joko out to be a certain way in the previous games and it just was not met, completely anti-climactic. 


 

 

Did we play the same GW1? Because Joko was a comedic relief character from the start. He was always campy and ridiculous. That was mirrored pretty well in GW2.

Edited March 1 by Squee.7829
Formatting

[ugrakarma.9416]

Soto first release was on spot, Demons was scary, mess with our nightmares and was mysterios.

The other releases have fallen into "flinstones" wold buildnig.

"The flinstones" is just world building when other realms have ppl like us in another skin, so the flinstones was ppl in stone age, but like us, they work, have homens and cars, but using bones instead of steel.

I feel like next Soto Chapter will show Kryptis cooking, cleaning, and other daily tasks like us, but using "demon things".

[ugrakarma.9416]

4 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

I mean, this thread is actually the biggest compliment to the writers, when you think about it. The scenario they constructed concerning the innate prejudice toward the Kryptis was so compelling that the sentiments they are depicting in-game of prejudiced Astral Ward members mirror almost exactly the sentiments of some of the playerbase that can't see past the label "demon" and reorient to what it does and doesn't truly say about each individual Kryptis they come across.

Suffering from success, imo.

Doing same thing "they are just ppl like us" plot for 5999589898 x time, is a complimient? lmao.

The game should be rename to "humanization wars 2", different skins for the plot of find some monster tribe to discover that they are "like us".

Edited March 1 by ugrakarma.9416

[Doggie.3184]

21 hours ago, Entara.3075 said:

Based upon how the story is going I am fully expecting that we will find that Eparch is merely misunderstood and that Zojja is the true evil mastermind. 😁

I'd rather it was Peitha being the evil one all along since she's been the one spamming me with annoying whispers in my head the most this whole time and slaying her would stop it.

[Senti.2890]

On 2/29/2024 at 10:00 PM, GBEW.5947 said:

I understand wanting your villain's to be complex, to have relatable issues and some sort of goal based on logic rather than chaos. 
but Eparch is a demon lord, he shouldn't be feeling sad or vengeful or anything about the kryptis queens death. He is a demon lord.

ever read Paradise Lost?

even demons and devils can have emotions

and have for hundreds of years in fiction

lucifer fell because he loved god too much and were jealous of humans

heck even the bible has demons with emotions

[Trejgon.9367]

11 minutes ago, Senti.2890 said:

lucifer fell because he loved god too much and were jealous of humans

The story I heard was that he thought he can run the world busines better than God 😉

(Still very emotional being even in that interpretation)

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 2/29/2024 at 10:00 PM, GBEW.5947 said:

Eparch is a demon lord, he shouldn't be feeling sad or vengeful or anything about the kryptis queens death. He is a demon lord. 
As a consumer I have an expectation of such creatures to be brutal unforgiving psychopathic entities not complicated beings run by emotions.

On 3/1/2024 at 12:30 AM, GBEW.5947 said:

No. I can absolutely judge what has been given so far. especially when its completely antithetical to my expectations of what demons are.

On 3/1/2024 at 1:17 AM, GBEW.5947 said:

if thats the case then the japanese have demons wrong as well. seeking help and attachment from humans is the opposite of a demons purpose. they arent supposed to be misunderstood, they are supposed to be taken at face value. 

On 3/1/2024 at 4:22 AM, GBEW.5947 said:

I expect varied enemies, so a bit of both preferably, but when i see the kryptis i see something that needs to be more mindless, alien, whatever you want, anything but human. 

Demons have a set definition, they are meant to be anti-human, their jobs are to possess and torture. These demons that are being referenced from the animes are not demons, they are an interpretation of a demon, which is exactly what the kryptis would be, im saying they are terrible at it and are basically just weird looking people. 

Emphases added. Your whole complaint seems to boil down to "these NPCs don't meet my expectations so it's bad," which is your prerogative of course, but by definition something not meeting your personal/cultural expectations is a You problem. No game developer is obligated to cater to your personal preferences, especially when their product is marketed worldwide.

That's not in any way meant to defend the SotO story, mind you. It started off OKish then rapidly took a turn for the weird when instead of killing the demons, we're helping them now (or at minimum getting manipulated by them). There's more than enough bad writing and questionable story direction to critique without dragging your personal expectations of what a demon should be into it.

[GBEW.5947]

15 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Emphases added. Your whole complaint seems to boil down to "these NPCs don't meet my expectations so it's bad," which is your prerogative of course, but by definition something not meeting your personal/cultural expectations is a You problem. No game developer is obligated to cater to your personal preferences, especially when their product is marketed worldwide.

That's not in any way meant to defend the SotO story, mind you. It started off OKish then rapidly took a turn for the weird when instead of killing the demons, we're helping them now (or at minimum getting manipulated by them). There's more than enough bad writing and questionable story direction to critique without dragging your personal expectations of what a demon should be into it.

It is definitely my expectation because that's just what they are. It's more an expectation of accuracy than a personal preference. 
And taking a few steps back I could forgive the emotional side of things if it was written well. There are demon's from all sorts of cultures so there is room for this, but that doesn't change how lame the experience was, and has been throughout the rest of the story on average.
The best option they have for this story is to have Pietha go ahead with turning on us, But that's not going to be enough of a hit as its kind of obvious. 
She needs to do something evil aswell like offing zojja and frode or something. 

Explanation, there was some people that were excited to see zojja, she seems to be a generally liked character, I've personally seen lots of comments comparing her as better than taimi, whatever your opinion is I think its a fact that she is generally well liked. I like her as well. Her death especially by Peitha's hands would be a situation that would get me invested, mostly due to it being unexpected as I personally don't think peitha is going to turn on us and will end up being an ally in her realm. 

And Frode I think is a fan favorite from soto, I could be wrong but I have only ever seen love for his character which means his death is another option that could cause that general interest to come back. Another reason I believe this could be a good idea is that they could redo the entire dead parent dynamic they had with brahm and eir, only this time they don't let the child go off on a tantrum and all off a sudden we have an extremely bad kitten female character to adventure with. 

This is purely just off the top of my head and in no way do I think it will be implemented or is it a perfect idea. I just would like to put it out there that these are the type of tiny details that we are missing in the story and I have put only ten minutes of effort into this, story telling is not hard with the amount of other brains, money and time that they have, I don't think bad writing is ever acceptable. 

Edited March 3 by GBEW.5947
editing duh

[Kalavier.1097]

On 2/29/2024 at 10:00 PM, GBEW.5947 said:

I understand wanting your villain's to be complex, to have relatable issues and some sort of goal based on logic rather than chaos. 
but Eparch is a demon lord, he shouldn't be feeling sad or vengeful or anything about the kryptis queens death. He is a demon lord. 
As a consumer I have an expectation of such creatures to be brutal unforgiving psychopathic entities not complicated beings run by emotions. I understand that their power comes from emotions but they are supposed to be the epitome of said emotion, not a victim of it. 

Joko was a side character that the community seems to worship for some reason even though this studio butchered his character, The entire raid through his palace was more of a comedy festival than anything and that can work, but you've already painted joko out to be a certain way in the previous games and it just was not met, completely anti-climactic. 
 

OH goodie, another "How dare these other fantasy races have any emotions" complaint thread.

The Gandara assault was a comedy festival? That's an interesting take.

On 3/1/2024 at 4:22 AM, GBEW.5947 said:

Joko was a Jokof a character. His last moments were spent fearing me, he tortured copies of my body, that told me right there that he was a zero level threat. it was actually pathetic and a far fall from the joko i knew in nightfall.

Interesting take that doesn't actually match anything that happened ingame.

On 3/2/2024 at 10:19 AM, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Emphases added. Your whole complaint seems to boil down to "these NPCs don't meet my expectations so it's bad," which is your prerogative of course, but by definition something not meeting your personal/cultural expectations is a You problem. No game developer is obligated to cater to your personal preferences, especially when their product is marketed worldwide.

That's not in any way meant to defend the SotO story, mind you. It started off OKish then rapidly took a turn for the weird when instead of killing the demons, we're helping them now (or at minimum getting manipulated by them). There's more than enough bad writing and questionable story direction to critique without dragging your personal expectations of what a demon should be into it.

Some people very much get weirdly upset when other races have any sort of emotions. There was threads a while back basically complaining that Charr felt anything at all.

9 hours ago, GBEW.5947 said:

It is definitely my expectation because that's just what they are. It's more an expectation of accuracy than a personal preference. 
And taking a few steps back I could forgive the emotional side of things if it was written well. There are demon's from all sorts of cultures so there is room for this, but that doesn't change how lame the experience was, and has been throughout the rest of the story on average.
 

Expectation of accuracy to what? This is Guild wars, and demons are "Beings formed in the mists" The Kryptis are already different from regular demons as they have an actual society and culture. This isn't related to any cultural description of demons from real life or other settings. 

Another example of this is  like how GW vampires are mindless bat-creatures and not at all like Dracula or such.

[GBEW.5947]

32 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

OH goodie, another "How dare these other fantasy races have any emotions" complaint thread.

The Gandara assault was a comedy festival? That's an interesting take.

Interesting take that doesn't actually match anything that happened ingame.

Some people very much get weirdly upset when other races have any sort of emotions. There was threads a while back basically complaining that Charr felt anything at all.

Expectation of accuracy to what? This is Guild wars, and demons are "Beings formed in the mists" The Kryptis are already different from regular demons as they have an actual society and culture. This isn't related to any cultural description of demons from real life or other settings. 

Another example of this is  like how GW vampires are mindless bat-creatures and not at all like Dracula or such.

You're just hating to hate, you enjoy soft emotional garbage and thats ok, but this story is bad lol.

[Kalavier.1097]

38 minutes ago, GBEW.5947 said:

You're just hating to hate, you enjoy soft emotional garbage and thats ok, but this story is bad lol.

Interesting statement from the guy who is unhappy that GW2 demon culture doesn't match any RL cultures view of demons?

Funny as well how I neither stated what I enjoy nor said the story was good or bad.

[Trejgon.9367]

11 hours ago, GBEW.5947 said:

It is definitely my expectation because that's just what they are. It's more an expectation of accuracy than a personal preference. 

With statement like this, I'd be somewhat expecting you to have some scientific research papers on the subject of existance of demons irl, that materially prove what they actually are.

If you don't then this statement is nonsense in attempt to obscure the fact it is about your personal preferences of what a demon should be, by pretending there is objective known to human truth on what they are.

[mandala.8507]

Glad to see this community has so many talented amateur writers. Some real M. Night Shyamalan-level twists being suggested here. They should pay US to write for GW2. Clearly we are experts and write very good. Yep. 🙃

[Kalavier.1097]

13 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Glad to see this community has so many talented amateur writers. Some real M. Night Shyamalan-level twists being suggested here. They should pay US to write for GW2. Clearly we are experts and write very good. Yep. 🙃

The real demons were the Choya who were present all along from the very start of GW2, watching us from the planters.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 3/1/2024 at 11:24 AM, Randulf.7614 said:

I'd be far more concerned our character didn't challenge the fact a deal was on the table to save Tyria or show any remorse for it after Labris died (the after instance dialogue touches on it without any remorse). Sure we were incapicated, but it also seemed likely Peitha was to take a decision affecting our world for us and we need to be questioning her a bit more and not trusting her so blindly. We seem to be swept up in a battle not of our own and I'm disconnected even more as to why - surely we are not that naieve?. I can see Izgarren's point of view to be honest.

The Commander likely didn't "challenge the fact" because the deal never had a chance of going through:

Eparch: I will make only one offer: release my queen and you will go free. Tyria will be spared, and you can live in exile there.

Peitha: Oh?

Queen Labris: No! You cannot compromise with these traitors, not even for me!

Peitha: It appears we've found the gap in your armor.

Queen Labris: You will not use me this way!

Queen Labris: I see now how I have failed you, my beloved. I have become a weakness for you. But no longer.

Queen Labris: (screams)

Eparch: No!

Eparch: You sought a war? You shall have it. Bring your army then. I will devour everything.

Labris interrupted any potential of negotiation right away. And even if the negotiations had gone on, Peitha had shown earlier to be a cunning leader (albeit not perfect given how this execution backfired on her) with how she forced Nephus's hand into joining her by giving Labris reason to accuse him. As such, though everyone thinks Peitha had no interest for accepting Eparch's deal, she would have been smart enough to at least use the negotiation to her advantage - possibly even to get the Commander room to join it.

That said, if you talk to NPCs after Eparch leaves, you do ask if they think Eparch would have honored his agreement. They all consider it unlikely but possible.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 hours ago, GBEW.5947 said:

It is definitely my expectation because that's just what they are. It's more an expectation of accuracy than a personal preference.

That's what they are in a small sample of other fiction. As others have pointed out, even in old Christian-centric fiction, the notion of demons having a wide variety of emotions is very present and common place. Even among older mythologies, it is.

Your "that's just what they are" is created not from any source material - as shown by how you've not linked any such thing - but instead by what you believe the source material should make it be.

12 hours ago, GBEW.5947 said:

Explanation, there was some people that were excited to see zojja, she seems to be a generally liked character, I've personally seen lots of comments comparing her as better than taimi, whatever your opinion is I think its a fact that she is generally well liked. I like her as well. Her death especially by Peitha's hands would be a situation that would get me invested, mostly due to it being unexpected as I personally don't think peitha is going to turn on us and will end up being an ally in her realm. 

And Frode I think is a fan favorite from soto, I could be wrong but I have only ever seen love for his character which means his death is another option that could cause that general interest to come back. Another reason I believe this could be a good idea is that they could redo the entire dead parent dynamic they had with brahm and eir, only this time they don't let the child go off on a tantrum and all off a sudden we have an extremely bad kitten female character to adventure with. 

This is purely just off the top of my head and in no way do I think it will be implemented or is it a perfect idea. I just would like to put it out there that these are the type of tiny details that we are missing in the story and I have put only ten minutes of effort into this, story telling is not hard with the amount of other brains, money and time that they have, I don't think bad writing is ever acceptable. 

Killing off characters people like for the sole sake of invoking a response is Bad Writing Techniques 101. It's called Fridging, and that's a trope that's always, ALWAYS terrible because everyone - audience and characters alike - forget about the dead characters 10 minutes after that initial shock value wears off.

A character's death should make sense in the moment, and have a lasting impact on other characters. Eir's death was good for this reason. Mabon's death was.... okay for this reason. Still done more for shock value of a beloved character dying than Zojja's (and others') character development, but the latter was there. Aurene's death was bad, made worse by the nonsensical way of resurrecting 3 minutes later. Fridging is a bad thing and let's face it, who honestly believes that Luke Skywalker actually cared about Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru after that scene changed? Or to use a GW2 example, who honestly cared that Mai Trin died other than the wasted potential of the character? Or Vlast?