More and more weapon updates from other classes put the Guardian support build to shame

[izzadi.9804]

A fan of support build here.

After Thief's scepter and now Warrior's staff, I no longer find any reason (or at least a strong reason) to play support build with my Guardian. It's like so many things to do but with so little effect to help others, where Warriors and Thief can do a lot better with just one weapon without even having to change to support build.

Yes Guardians do get better offensive updates, but it's just a shame that the support/healing got overshadowed by other offensive classes.

Thoughts?

[Assassine.1958]

A lot of people would say that guardian is anets favorite child. But personally I think the game is at the moment in a really unhealthy state in terms of balancing in all gamemodes!

In my opinion guardian (especially Firebrand) is a really great support class, with tons of aegis & other boons, condition cleanses, and good amount of heals, BUT i played recently a lot druid in raids, strikes and some fractal CM's and I must say druid is the better healer overall - the only thing is the alacrity (needs a bit of practice).

So get to the point: I mentioned in some other posts earlier, that there are plenty of "old", "unused" and "outdated" traits in guardian traitlines, which need some kind of rework. Also there are many traits which making no sense with some elite specializations e.g. Willbender and passive aegis regeneration on f3 (Indomitable Courage in virtues-traitline). Also i think its time to get some low amount healing on the staff autoattack (just like on trident).

I don't think, that the newer weapons are the issue right now. But I have to agree, that guardian feels like the "old potato". I mean you play the same traitlines and traits year for year, expansion for expansion - in every gamemode. E.g. playing on valor as an guardian doesn't give you much benefits in pvp (in my opinion!)

But I guess GW3 is coming xD

Edited April 3 by Assassine.1958

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Basically, Firebrand in its prime was easy one of the most busted OP specs ever made. 

And it's era of supreme reign was long. 

But at some point Anet finally decided that having one God king of support is maybe not the best idea and brought it and guard as a whole down a notch. One patch at the time. 

Now we see a somewhat balance version of FB. While others get a chance to support too. 

Also, Guard weapons were never good for support. It was the FB kit that carried it

Look at Mace. One of the worst weapons in the game. Crazy that this trash is still in the game like that. 

[izzadi.9804]

On 4/3/2024 at 8:13 PM, Assassine.1958 said:

Also i think its time to get some low amount healing on the staff autoattack (just like on trident).

I don't think, that the newer weapons are the issue right now. But I have to agree, that guardian feels like the "old potato". I mean you play the same traitlines and traits year for year, expansion for expansion - in every gamemode. E.g. playing on valor as an guardian doesn't give you much benefits in pvp (in my opinion!)

But I guess GW3 is coming xD

Such ability like on trident would great and yeah you try to play with a new playstyle but it seems like there's only one or two viable traitlines. I think valor is still alright compared to Honor, just sad. =(

On 4/3/2024 at 8:28 PM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

 Now we see a somewhat balance version of FB. While others get a chance to support too. 

Also, Guard weapons were never good for support. It was the FB kit that carried it

Look at Mace. One of the worst weapons in the game. Crazy that this trash is still in the game like that. 

Exactly, I wish anet will do something during this update phase... at least on the weapons that we have been ranting about for so long.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

Context?

I don't know of anyone using thief for support in competitive, and in PvE, heal alacrity spectre is a PITA to actually use due to having to switch targets all the time.

When it comes to warrior staff - staff pretty much has to carry warrior for warrior to be a healer at all, at least in PvE (healbreaker existed in sPvP before staff, but it was really more of a support/bruiser hybrid than a full support). Warrior utilities, traits, and mechanics have almost no foundation for support at all, so it all has to go on the weapon. Guardian, by contrast, especially firebrand, has a good amount of support in utilities, traits and mechanics, and so doesn't have to lean on the weapon so heavily.

The heals per second have dropped a bit relative to the field, and maybe the healing on staff and mace could be increased a little to account for that, but guardian, especially firebrand, has a pretty big bag of tricks to draw from. Thief and warrior aren't exactly the professions I'd be envious over when it comes to support.

[starlinvf.1358]

55 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Context?

I don't know of anyone using thief for support in competitive, and in PvE, heal alacrity spectre is a PITA to actually use due to having to switch targets all the time.

When it comes to warrior staff - staff pretty much has to carry warrior for warrior to be a healer at all, at least in PvE (healbreaker existed in sPvP before staff, but it was really more of a support/bruiser hybrid than a full support). Warrior utilities, traits, and mechanics have almost no foundation for support at all, so it all has to go on the weapon. Guardian, by contrast, especially firebrand, has a good amount of support in utilities, traits and mechanics, and so doesn't have to lean on the weapon so heavily.

The heals per second have dropped a bit relative to the field, and maybe the healing on staff and mace could be increased a little to account for that, but guardian, especially firebrand, has a pretty big bag of tricks to draw from. Thief and warrior aren't exactly the professions I'd be envious over when it comes to support.

Warrior has 2 trait lines for support, 2 utility types are support focused and warhorn has no offensive use.   The catch was, and still is, that Warrior support based around passive bonuses that got outpaced by the hard pivot to rampant boon generation thats at the core of all especs now.  
 

As a front liner, it doesn’t need to be a boon spammer, because classic guardian and ele filled those jobs.  Freeing up warriors to do what they’re designed to do….. control the play field. 

 

When anet gave up on emphasizing class playstyles to become a different WOW clone, it inherited all of WOW’s core design problems. Vertically stacking buffs, buff density, and doubling down on the two dps metrics.  Control no longer matters in any real significance, so naturally everything becomes fixated on DPS-in and DPS-out 

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, starlinvf.1358 said:

Warrior has 2 trait lines for support, 2 utility types are support focused and warhorn has no offensive use.   The catch was, and still is, that Warrior support based around passive bonuses that got outpaced by the hard pivot to rampant boon generation thats at the core of all especs now.  
 

As a front liner, it doesn’t need to be a boon spammer, because classic guardian and ele filled those jobs.  Freeing up warriors to do what they’re designed to do….. control the play field. 

 

When anet gave up on emphasizing class playstyles to become a different WOW clone, it inherited all of WOW’s core design problems. Vertically stacking buffs, buff density, and doubling down on the two dps metrics.  Control no longer matters in any real significance, so naturally everything becomes fixated on DPS-in and DPS-out 

Control absolutely matters in competitive, and it has never mattered in PvE outside of the odd breakbar mechanic because everything that didn't die too quickly to need control had Defiance. Prior to the current 'you occasionally get a bar to break' system, we had bosses which needed to have two dozen or so stacks of CC protection stripped before you'd get a couple of seconds of stun.

Nobody bothered. The dungeon meta pretty much since release was stacking buffs and doubling down on DPS. You're looking with rose-tinted glasses for a time that never really existed. The difference is that we're now the closest we've ever been to an environment where everybody gets to have a role in the meta rather than having entire professions locked out. Control was actually viable in GW1, but even then, 'dead is the best control' was a common mantra.

Warrior has always been good at Might stacking, but it never had the utilities, traits, or mechanics to really make for a good healer. Staff has to pretty much singlehandedly carry heal warrior for heal warrior to really be a thing. Guardian does have those supporting abilities, and it has multiple weapons that can be used for support, so none of them need to be quite as strong as warrior staff.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

Context matters here, because Healbrand is still the most demanded healer in an average Fractal group. It’s always been the case since release even if Healbrand’s heal output isn’t the strongest since Healbrand monopolizes the Aegis and Stability spam, the 2 things that make a Frac run extremely smooth. 

Compared to Healbrand, Heal Warrior (let’s take Heal Berserker since they’re both quick Heal builds) has only 1 access to Aegis share on Staff, and only 1 Stability share access on Banner. Naturally a Frac group that takes Heal Berserker over Healbrand will be tossed around like a ping pong ball due to lack of Stability, and cannot cheese mechanics due to lack of Aegis. This group will need another member to cover those 2 boons. So despite Staff carrying the entire Warrior support build, it’s still nowhere near the level to overshadow Firebrand as a whole in any way.

I don’t play Thief so I don’t know about it, but the rumor is that Thief Scepter support builds are objectively bad due to single ally-targeting. And I’ve not seen a heal Thief anywhere in ages, where does it even put Guardian to shame?

 

[zealex.9410]

I dont agree entirely, yes warrior got staff but the only build that would logically use it, alac bsw is not good because of the 1 weapon limitation, compared to that fb has nothing to fear imo.

[yLoon.5289]

Each class of supportive builds is special on its own for different Raid bosses. It is heavily subjected to the composition of classes in the raid team. 
For example, Druid provides Alacrity and powerful Heal; this is exceptional at Wing1 1st boss if your parties are disregarding the green circle.

But we do not need Druid if the team comprises Scourges that can provide barriers and assist ress, while for Alacrity, Renegade can be ADPS, and Guardian as HB with Quickness. You might argue yes the white tiger pet also provides Aegis. However, I still do not see any other class that can outperform Guardian at Aegis.

Perhaps this discussion will be more fruitful if you can enlighten us on how other supportive classes put Guardian in shame. 😉

Edited April 9 by yLoon.5289

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 4/8/2024 at 2:55 PM, zealex.9410 said:

I dont agree entirely, yes warrior got staff but the only build that would logically use it, alac bsw is not good because of the 1 weapon limitation, compared to that fb has nothing to fear imo.

Qheal Zerker is really good. Just outclassed by more busted heal builds at the moment. 

Druid kinda stacked currently. 

And Aheal + Qdps is often the better combo. Good luck finding a pug Adps. 

Edited April 10 by DanAlcedo.3281

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Qheal Zerker is really good. Just outclassed by more busted heal builds at the moment. 

Druid kinda stacked currently. 

And Aheal + Qdps is often the better combo. Good luck finding a pug Adps. 

I've pugged quite a few groups with healbrand or healherald and adps. Mind you, most of my pugs tend to be groups that aren't inclined to wait for a 'perfect' group.

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

On 4/5/2024 at 8:28 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Control absolutely matters in competitive, and it has never mattered in PvE outside of the odd breakbar mechanic because everything that didn't die too quickly to need control had Defiance. Prior to the current 'you occasionally get a bar to break' system, we had bosses which needed to have two dozen or so stacks of CC protection stripped before you'd get a couple of seconds of stun.

Nobody bothered. The dungeon meta pretty much since release was stacking buffs and doubling down on DPS. You're looking with rose-tinted glasses for a time that never really existed. The difference is that we're now the closest we've ever been to an environment where everybody gets to have a role in the meta rather than having entire professions locked out. Control was actually viable in GW1, but even then, 'dead is the best control' was a common mantra.

Warrior has always been good at Might stacking, but it never had the utilities, traits, or mechanics to really make for a good healer. Staff has to pretty much singlehandedly carry heal warrior for heal warrior to really be a thing. Guardian does have those supporting abilities, and it has multiple weapons that can be used for support, so none of them need to be quite as strong as warrior staff.

I concur. I was there back when the endgame was CoF p3 speedruns and the meta was 4 Warriors PS + 1 Mesmer for Quickness when it was actually a rare boon to have. You had these massive clownfiestas of threads where Necromancers, Rangers, etc were trying their hardest to convince people they were viable. I forgot who was the speaker for the Ranger who made a autoattack sword build for them that dealt 4k per auto, and competed with Warriors, but i recall Nemesis being one of the speakers for Necromancer. Dude was a bit abrasive but i liked some of his guides.

Anyway, GW2 was always about boonstacking, but back then you spent more time actually blastfinishing and Phalanx Strength-ening your way to the top, and the 4 warriors would keep those stacks up longer. I think Anet went towards the other way where vomiting boons is the core gameplay because they don't want that to become the meta again, and i do see where they're coming from ( altho i do think the other extreme is just as bad ).

[Strider.7849]

On 4/3/2024 at 5:13 AM, Assassine.1958 said:

A lot of people would say that guardian is anets favorite child. But personally I think the game is at the moment in a really unhealthy state in terms of balancing in all gamemodes!

In my opinion guardian (especially Firebrand) is a really great support class, with tons of aegis & other boons, condition cleanses, and good amount of heals, BUT i played recently a lot druid in raids, strikes and some fractal CM's and I must say druid is the better healer overall - the only thing is the alacrity (needs a bit of practice).

So get to the point: I mentioned in some other posts earlier, that there are plenty of "old", "unused" and "outdated" traits in guardian traitlines, which need some kind of rework. Also there are many traits which making no sense with some elite specializations e.g. Willbender and passive aegis regeneration on f3 (Indomitable Courage in virtues-traitline). Also i think its time to get some low amount healing on the staff autoattack (just like on trident).

I don't think, that the newer weapons are the issue right now. But I have to agree, that guardian feels like the "old potato". I mean you play the same traitlines and traits year for year, expansion for expansion - in every gamemode. E.g. playing on valor as an guardian doesn't give you much benefits in pvp (in my opinion!)

But I guess GW3 is coming xD

I play all healers in both end game PvE content and WvW.

Druid has stronger burst heals and more cleanses. It's weakness is that it has a hard time preventing damage and allowing your dps to continue, dpsing. To compound these issues, druid also has both a cooldown and an energy requirement to use its more powerful heals, cleanses, and buffs. In PvE its ability to self generate (and give) alacrity helps a lot with its access, but in WvW it doesn't and you can notice it's weaknesses much easier.

Healbrand, is a weaker direct healer, rbut has strong sustained heals. Where it shines is in that it can do a bit of everything, it brings easily accessible stability, and brings aegis/reflects. Played properly, I make it where my dps doesn't need to stop to dodge anything but effects that are guaranteed death. This is huge in overall dps of the party, and more often then not you will clear content faster and more safely with a firebrand than you will with a druid. 

Where I feel Firebrand needs improvements is not in its heals, but in the quickness it provides in WvW. If they were able to maintain quick through its traits alone, it would allow room for better utility and condi clear.

[zealex.9410]

On 4/10/2024 at 8:15 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Qheal Zerker is really good. Just outclassed by more busted heal builds at the moment. 

Druid kinda stacked currently. 

And Aheal + Qdps is often the better combo. Good luck finding a pug Adps. 

The main thing is youd rather have the alacrity giver do the healing and q dps zerker is really strong so you kinda handicap it with giving it healing but yeah, in terms of performance it outclasses alac bsw as do most every boon heal provider.