Let's talk stealth.

[BenaSPACE.6028]

Stealth is a bit of an odd bird when it comes to how players interact with it. In pvp and wvw, providing stealth for others rarely seem to have concequences, as teammates are generally more coordinated with it, either using it almost strictly to engage or disengage fights. 

In PvE, however, it becomes more problematic. It stops auto attacks, and God for bit you're a thief or especially a deadeye where this convolutes things so much more. 

I propose instead that when you would give players stealth in pve, instead you give them something I'm giving the name of Smokescreen. When you have smokescreen, instead of immediately getting stealth, if you evade in the next few seconds, then you get stealth. 

This feels like a flavorful way to provide stealth to players while still maintaining thier agency. Certain skills, such as shadow refuge, might not work as well with this, and might need a different mechanic (just being able to press F, I think, would fix that issue), but I general I think most things in pve would benefit from this change. 

Note: when a thief provides AoE stealth, they themselves should immediately go into stealth mode, and not get smokescreen. Smokescreen is meant for player-to-player interactions. 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

OH LOOK! Another thread complaining about OP stealth and nerf thei-....Oh....OH! This is actually a good thread. I take back everything I was about to say.

I like the idea. I only see one problem with it. The only way I see this really being usable is making it that little auxilliary command that we often get for situation specific abilities, most commonly right now using the Heart of the Obscure for rifts and such. The problem with that though is there's only one slot there, and it gets overwritten by whatever's new. So what happens if you're in the middle of the Wizards Tower meta, and you need to use the Heart, but then a thief pops stealth and now you have a smokescreen instead? Or if we give the Heart priority, then it rendered the AOE part of the thief stealth pointless. This is a fairly niche scenario but we do need to consider that. If we can get past that I like it though. Kinda like handing your friends a smoke bomb and they can use it or not, their choice.

[Cuks.8241]

I dont really see the problem, maybe in very niche cases and your solution is just as convoluted as the potential problem.

Is there really a case when you would mind a free stealth attack on thief? Its like a gift, ty ill take the extra backstab. Maybe on DE while not at full malice but you can just ignore it. Do you ever want to just normal aa on DE? I dont really have much experience with thief in pve.

And I would hate the change in pvp. But ok, you said pve.

[Beddo.1907]

It's so rare to see someone use stealth skills in PvE combat, that I don't see a point. Triggering stealth with dodge, seems like more of a hindrance than an improvement.

If I had to pick a way to fix it, I'd go with reducing the consequences over overcomplicating team stealth.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

11 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

It's so rare to see someone use stealth skills in PvE combat, that I don't see a point. Triggering stealth with dodge, seems like more of a hindrance than an improvement.

If I had to pick a way to fix it, I'd go with reducing the consequences over overcomplicating team stealth.

I main mesmer heavily but thief is my second most played, both of them the only classes really that use stealth (I know other professions have 1, maybe 2 skills with stealth, not the point though). On mesmer you are absolutely 100% right. There is ZERO reason to ever use stealth ever. It doesn't even see play in competetive. As for thief, the only time I use stealth is with my Deadeye. Build Malice, dodge, stealth, ambush, repeat.

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

Stealth, in some encounters, help to group the mobs ... So stopping auto attacks by default when stealthed is the best option I guess..can see some stealth plays in HT nm and CM... Also works in some other encounters but not needed much

[BenaSPACE.6028]

On 4/3/2024 at 3:12 PM, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

OH LOOK! Another thread complaining about OP stealth and nerf thei-....Oh....OH! This is actually a good thread. I take back everything I was about to say.

I like the idea. I only see one problem with it. The only way I see this really being usable is making it that little auxilliary command that we often get for situation specific abilities, most commonly right now using the Heart of the Obscure for rifts and such. The problem with that though is there's only one slot there, and it gets overwritten by whatever's new. So what happens if you're in the middle of the Wizards Tower meta, and you need to use the Heart, but then a thief pops stealth and now you have a smokescreen instead? Or if we give the Heart priority, then it rendered the AOE part of the thief stealth pointless. This is a fairly niche scenario but we do need to consider that. If we can get past that I like it though. Kinda like handing your friends a smoke bomb and they can use it or not, their choice.

To clarify, the Smokescreen effect only triggers on dodges, and F-pressing stuff would be limited to things like Shadow Refuge or Stealth Gyro, where the stealth is meant to be a "while-in-area" effect.

 

On 4/3/2024 at 3:22 PM, Cuks.8241 said:

I dont really see the problem, maybe in very niche cases and your solution is just as convoluted as the potential problem.

Is there really a case when you would mind a free stealth attack on thief? Its like a gift, ty ill take the extra backstab. Maybe on DE while not at full malice but you can just ignore it. Do you ever want to just normal aa on DE? I dont really have much experience with thief in pve.

And I would hate the change in pvp. But ok, you said pve.

The issue is mostly with how it can stop auto-attacks (to keep people from auto-ing right out of stealth on accident). Also, Deadeye especially relies on specific timing for stealth. While you can ignore it and press another attack button or whatever, the "Revealed" status that follows cannot be. And before you bring up Shadow Meld, that's an elite slot that's being taken up that could be something more damaging in PvE like Thieves Guild.

 

On 4/4/2024 at 3:48 AM, Beddo.1907 said:

It's so rare to see someone use stealth skills in PvE combat, that I don't see a point. Triggering stealth with dodge, seems like more of a hindrance than an improvement.

If I had to pick a way to fix it, I'd go with reducing the consequences over overcomplicating team stealth.

A lot of people avoid using stealth skills outside of just doing sneak attacks on thieves. One could argue that the reason group stealth skills are so rare are because of the problems they cause. Likewise, a lot of traits that could trigger on stealth could instead trigger on Smokescreen instead, cutting out that middleman completely. For example, Merciful Ambush.

On 4/5/2024 at 1:36 AM, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

Stealth, in some encounters, help to group the mobs ... So stopping auto attacks by default when stealthed is the best option I guess..can see some stealth plays in HT nm and CM... Also works in some other encounters but not needed much

This is a fair point. Mass invisibility and stealth gyro might be good to bring for these, and as such need to be pretty easy to use under these circumstances, though I think something like shadow refuge can be a decent substitute for when a thief needs to play this role.

[Tycura.1982]

I propose we remove all stealth

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, Tycura.1982 said:

I propose we remove all stealth

I propose we remove all boons.

While we're at it, let's just remove all skills too. That would really help with the high APM many builds have now.

[Tycura.1982]

13 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I propose we remove all boons.

While we're at it, let's just remove all skills too. That would really help with the high APM many builds have now.

Sure why not

[Yasai.3549]

I chuckle everytime I see a guide that warns the player that using Blinding Powder as part of their rotation potentially ruins the fight for other players because forcing Stealth on them stops all their AA chains. 
 

Edited April 7 by Yasai.3549

[ShadowKatt.6740]

13 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I propose we remove all boons.

I have already unironically stated we should remove all boons. It would destroy this meta where the focus is on boon uptime and how many of which you can support and Qheal or Aheal doesn't have enough and can't maintain 100% and blah blah blah blah F-ING BLAH.

Remove all boons. Get back to actually PLAYING the game instead of staring at the tiny icons over your skill bar.