Vindicator has far too much evades, blocks, defense to be doing the amount of damage, and aoe damage that it does, what's the philospophy?

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@arazoth.7290 @Flowki.7194 just watch MAT and see for yourself how stupid vindi hammer can really be...

 

The only real good player utilizing it kinda was Drazeh, the others weren't...

And when he tried to 1v1 untamed, Spb he lost. Even though it was to stall a capped node by an almost winning match vs spb, but still lost.

He did well and was strong in the matches yes, but in the way that it just went through everything carrying, no.

I have seen multipble times his damage + bursts were neglected by support. Or that he had to wait some time before doing some weight on his bursts.

Would I say it's strong, yes. Too strong, hard carrying, no. And his performance is good on it because he is a good player. This doesn't count for many that it would carry them straight away by just having it, many are not on these levels.

Edited April 30 by arazoth.7290

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

mech, herald and ren are almost entirely absent, etc

Just want to quote and agree this is the baseline for actually terrible specs.  A lot of people forget that.

Maybe that's why such the defense of Vindicator as the other rev specs are straight trash in sPvP.  It would be nice for anet to bring those specs up instead of hammering everything into Vindicator.  

[arazoth.7290]

2 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Just want to quote and agree this is the baseline for actually terrible specs.  A lot of people forget that.

Maybe that's why such the defense of Vindicator as the other rev specs are straight trash in sPvP.  It would be nice for anet to bring those specs up instead of hammering everything into Vindicator.  

<= This, ty + other reasons summed earlier posts 

Edited April 30 by arazoth.7290

[Shagie.7612]

30 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

It would be nice for anet to bring those specs up instead of hammering everything into Vindicator.  

Both ArenaNet and the playerbase have a very clear hatred of Renegade as a spec because of two very short periods of time despite the cause of both of them not even existing anymore.
It won't happen. The Kalla rework accomplished absolutely nothing in terms of making it more playable and won't actually work unless they make the summons relatively low cost/CD, which puts it back into the "aoe spamming" category that they hated to begin with (it wasn't really a good aoe vomit spec, but that's their reasoning as to why they left it abandoned for like 6 years).

The legend has 600 range, no finishers, no condition cleanse, lost its unique -50% condition damage taken modifier on the heal, anywhere from a 1.5-2s delay on the spirits actually doing their effect, extremely high energy costs, and is a pure damage spec with very little ability to sustain, disengage, or protect itself from getting w keyed. The only way to balance that, plus the new design of the summons being a one and done, would be to make them be nearly one shots, and that's both stupid and never happening.

Functionally, Mallyx/Condi Rev builds have massive problems with their design in that energy is inherently a bursty/window based mechanic, and condi generally needs to have sustained application alongside actual varied types instead of 99% Torment, so that's not happening either unless they accidentally screw up Herald to where it wins by pure sustain again. Mallyx has been a mess since they reworked it + Corruption.
Centaur and support builds are bad because of the reliance on the tablet, plus staff and scepter are both poop. Decent projectile hate though, but it's just a 1v1 time waster, better at it than most supports tho I suppose.
Jalis is... mostly fine tbh, just doesn't really fit with the role the entire class is forced into in pvp.

Herald, on the other hand, fills the same role, and Vindicator's the only thing both players and developers care about, so it's screwed too.

Edited April 30 by Shagie.7612

[Myror.7521]

@arazoth.7290 nah the Problem is not the e-spec clearly. Its hammer doing ways too mutch dmg for just pressing a Button xd while also having some realy good Defence options ^^

Also...... it is not meant to do 1v1s the fact that it can do that while also been able to plus one (his actuall Job) made it stupid and OP xd

Edited April 30 by Myror.7521

[Lighter.5631]

on paper, hammer 2 is level 2 killshot that requires no adrenaline(close to non existence energy cost), shorter cast time and bigger aoe and no self root

but really, it's better in anyway, due to easy access of fury/quickness/damage modifier on rev, you can easily hit 6-7-8k on a balanced build

you hit like 6-7-8k semi glass killshot like once every 10 days

 

on paper, hammer 2 is similar to gunflame, that is not gated behind 2 cooldowns and 2 energy bar and hit everyone within 1200 range, while gunflame only has a radius of 180 even tho it does CC. hammer 2 is also not a projectile, so projectile hate has no effect

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Death drop can't be THAT strong. 

"checks wiki*

(2. 67)👀 Jesus all mighty. 

 

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@arazoth.7290 nah the Problem is not the e-spec clearly. Its hammer doing ways too mutch dmg for just pressing a Button xd while also having some realy good Defence options ^^

Also...... it is not meant to do 1v1s the fact that it can do that while also been able to plus one (his actuall Job) made it stupid and OP xd

There are classes who do more damage then it with more reliable ability hitting and some even in a larger aoe field while also having sustain same time.

I wonder if you all actually played it vs good people and how succesfull everything landed always and how many times the damage was even tanked without dodging bc they take it...

Many haven't seen/played against it for a long time and apparantly don't want to adapt to counter it/learn the mechanics to fight it...

lazy... play it and all try to put up something like drazeh did. How succesfull you all will be

 

[Sereath.1428]

5 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Just want to quote and agree this is the baseline for actually terrible specs.  A lot of people forget that.

Maybe that's why such the defense of Vindicator as the other rev specs are straight trash in sPvP.  It would be nice for anet to bring those specs up instead of hammering everything into Vindicator.  

That's it, tbh. Herald is far too unforgiving to play, and Renegade is just ineffective at everything compared to any other spec.
And as I said, just as the players on the receiving end: I dislike Vindicators playstyle around Death Drop.
I know why they do it. Unlikely they will address it directly, as they often like to reinvent the wheel.
Current playstyle is all around bursting targets as soon as possible. No emphasis on "dancing" between orange and blue alliance stances at all, it's mostly just Death Drop and hammer nukes from range right now. Full melee Vindicator was way more manageable to fight, unforgiving to play and shortbow has lower range and almost zero defensives.

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Death drop can't be THAT strong. 

"checks wiki*

(2. 67)👀 Jesus all mighty. 

 

Misleading numbers because of weird scaling. In-game it's in average 3.5k, which is still quite a lot and annoying.
(Most hammer skills have half that coefficient and hit twice as hard as Death Drop)

And as some of us have said. Hammer is also quite overtuned. Specially because of #4.

Edited April 30 by Sereath.1428

[Myror.7521]

@arazoth.7290 yes buuut you know Hammer does with litterly all dmg skills the same amount of dmg a warr does with its Burst skills and that should say like alot xd would it be just one thing only it would be okayish ... but 3 plus one of it is also a defensive Skill ^^

Alsooo one thing is "learn how to play against it" another is "you straight can not hit it cause it have like too short window between all its dodges/defensives xd. 

You are like now in the same Situation like me Sir xD. I never realy struggled against staff spellbreaker and to me it was ever just a l2p issue peops had. The only diff is that staff got instantly nerfed xd while vindi goes unnerfed into its Second season ..... aswell as Ranger Mace Mace actually xd

Edited April 30 by Myror.7521

[DanAlcedo.3281]

1 hour ago, Sereath.1428 said:

That's it, tbh. Herald is far too unforgiving to play, and Renegade is just ineffective at everything compared to any other spec.
And as I said, just as the players on the receiving end: I dislike Vindicators playstyle around Death Drop.
I know why they do it. Unlikely they will address it directly, as they often like to reinvent the wheel.
Current playstyle is all around bursting targets as soon as possible. No emphasis on "dancing" between orange and blue alliance stances at all, it's mostly just Death Drop and hammer nukes from range right now. Full melee Vindicator was way more manageable to fight, unforgiving to play and shortbow has lower range and almost zero defensives.

Misleading numbers because of weird scaling. In-game it's in average 3.5k, which is still quite a lot and annoying.
(Most hammer skills have half that coefficient and hit twice as hard as Death Drop)

And as some of us have said. Hammer is also quite overtuned. Specially because of #4.

I find it crazy that there are skills in pvp with over 2.0 coeff. A game mode that should be on a lower powerlevel. 

Meanwhile, we have tons of skills in PvE which hit like wet noodles when they should hit like trucks. 

Why does the hammer Primal Burst do auto attack dmg in pve? 

But a dodge in pvp is OK having almost double the coeff?

I need some logic here. 

[Shagie.7612]

43 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

But a dodge in pvp is OK having almost double the coeff?

Because the dodge doesn't have weapon damage in its formula like Rupturing Smash does.
It's always gonna be a large number relative to weapon skills because of that. It's why a lot of utility skills have relatively high coefficients too.

If you think it's too much damage, say that. Don't just read a number off the wiki without understanding what you're looking at.
It makes you look like you're developing the ranger class when you do that

Edited April 30 by Shagie.7612

[DanAlcedo.3281]

44 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Because the dodge doesn't have weapon damage in its formula like Rupturing Smash does.
It's always gonna be a large number relative to weapon skills because of that. It's why a lot of utility skills have relatively high coefficients too.

If you think it's too much damage, say that. Don't just read a number off the wiki without understanding what you're looking at.
It makes you look like you're developing the ranger class when you do that

Today I learned that utility skills don't use weapon strength. 

You would assume I should have known that 18k hours into the game. Better late than never I guess. 

I should also note that I have no idea how much dmg vindi dodge does as I have not played pvp in like 6 years. 

I'm just mad that certain skills still do noddle dmg in PvE for no reason. 🙃

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Because the dodge doesn't have weapon damage in its formula like Rupturing Smash does.
It's always gonna be a large number relative to weapon skills because of that. It's why a lot of utility skills have relatively high coefficients too.

If you think it's too much damage, say that. Don't just read a number off the wiki without understanding what you're looking at.
It makes you look like you're developing the ranger class when you do that

This has stated like many times in this thread already, I don't get why people keep scrolling over this and not understanding the math behind it.

No idea how to say it un English, niet verder kijken dan hun neus lang is...

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

 

I should also note that I have no idea how much dmg vindi dodge does as I have not played pvp in like 6 years. 

Yea well this leads to some issues for balancing things in general. There gets talked about stuff and arena net reads it, while both are trying to figure it out and don't have a clue what the problem is because of such situations 😒

[arazoth.7290]

4 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@arazoth.7290 yes buuut you know Hammer does with litterly all dmg skills the same amount of dmg a warr does with its Burst skills and that should say like alot xd would it be just one thing only it would be okayish ... but 3 plus one of it is also a defensive Skill ^^

Alsooo one thing is "learn how to play against it" another is "you straight can not hit it cause it have like too short window between all its dodges/defensives xd. 

You are like now in the same Situation like me Sir xD. I never realy struggled against staff spellbreaker and to me it was ever just a l2p issue peops had. The only diff is that staff got instantly nerfed xd while vindi goes unnerfed into its Second season ..... aswell as Ranger Mace Mace actually xd

The damage on staff was fine I think, for a support weapon mainly*

The longer cc animation in staff pull was whined a lot too on, and it got tuned. I never had a problem with it, if it pulled me fine because I was not paying enough attention my mistake then. 

Mostly a problem with it was the self sustain I guess, which might be little bit too much reduced. Atleast I am happy for warriors they increased the outgoing heals coëfficiënt for allies on it, so that part didn't suffer too much for who likes support warrior.

I still think many support warriors aren't tapping in full potential yet. Because most do atm now like max 700k-800k'ish healing during a match if support. While I know a guy who has been using support warrior before staff and did these numbers/higher even. He reaches like now always 1 mil and average close to 2 mil, max he had was 3 mil so far I heard.

 

Btw idea: How would this go if you would go on berserker full glass with riffle and staff for defense/kiting. You would be now mainly range and staff if defense needed and kiting with some occasional cc/damage? 

 

[Myror.7521]

@arazoth.7290 Well heal supp spell and core are both underrated (at least to me). That been said.... I think its only not that often played cause it lacks important stability/Aegis share xd. Also on core you have no real self defence ^^. To the Zerker build .... It might sound good in theory but in practice it totaly lacks dmg thanks to Warrior in generel lacks dmg actually ^^. Think about it a Hammer Vindicator does the same dmg of warrs best and highest bursts skills on 3 out off 5 skills and that is just one weapon (Hammer)  alone xD

Edited April 30 by Myror.7521

[Endo.1652]

6 pages later and people are still trying to crack the code on hammer vindi

[ArthurDent.9538]

10 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

on paper, hammer 2 is level 2 killshot that requires no adrenaline(close to non existence energy cost), shorter cast time and bigger aoe and no self root

but really, it's better in anyway, due to easy access of fury/quickness/damage modifier on rev, you can easily hit 6-7-8k on a balanced build

you hit like 6-7-8k semi glass killshot like once every 10 days

 

on paper, hammer 2 is similar to gunflame, that is not gated behind 2 cooldowns and 2 energy bar and hit everyone within 1200 range, while gunflame only has a radius of 180 even tho it does CC. hammer 2 is also not a projectile, so projectile hate has no effect

On paper CoR is way easier to read and dodge as an animation compared to gunflame which is just a slightly slower auto attack with a new (and extremely fast projectile animation). Also the cascading effect of CoR is often a massive hindrance over a normal projectile as it becomes useless on a lot of terrain. Normal kill shot is bad though no debate there.

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Myror.7521 said:

@arazoth.7290 Well heal supp spell and core are both underrated (at least to me). That been said.... I think its only not that often played cause it lacks important stability/Aegis share xd. Also on core you have no real self defence ^^. To the Zerker build .... It might sound good in theory but in practice it totaly lacks dmg thanks to Warrior in generel lacks dmg actually ^^. Think about it a Hammer Vindicator does the same dmg of warrs best and highest bursts skills on 3 out off 5 skills and that is just one weapon (Hammer)  alone xD

I can't go to deep into conversation about warrior since I don't play it, but just saying what I saw, can't argue about it more because lack of knowledge.

About the damage, I think that's little bit how warrior is build though/functions.

They could have done hammer rework different though. In my view, what I said earlier on rev forum something similar. =====> 

• Auto attack: Cast time duration/amount of damage is fine, don't buf it anymore or nerf it, it's in between just fine.

•Weapon Skill 2: 

Damage/cd stays the same.

Change animation that it hits more reliable over uneven grounds. They could rupture the ground up in mist/fire animation like you smashed it up, this would increase the height and go over it. It also Still hits upfront like it works now. 

Enemies who get hit gain 3 second weakness condi and allies/yourself gain 3 seconds 25% reduction on all damage during that time.

• Weapon skill 3: Stays same, untouched.

• Weapon skill 4: I really don't care about the damage on it now, as long it would work like this ===> 

Initial instant effect still gives same amount of duration anti projectile field. If the 0,75 second cast time is completes, it shares 1 aegis in 300 radius to yourself/allies.

- Passive effect: If enemies hit you while anti projectile field is up, your Weapon Skill 2 gets 1 second reduced cd. ICD proc time would be 0,5 second cd and it can get max 6  seconds cap reduced.

• Weapon Skill 5: 

Back to 2 seconds stun and no longer resets Weapon Skill 2 (if weapon Skill 4 gets changed like described).

The cast time/animation work likes how it is now + same short amount cast time.

After the 0,50 second cast time and hammer gets summoned there is a delay before it hits like 0,75 seconds. So while you cast the 0,50 second ability, you also taunt enemies inwards on that location where hammer is about to drop.

 

There is still time to counter it enough like it should be and double counter with resistance boon for all who have it.

But atm, people still get out of it easier in fights then it should be, even with quickness which is frustrating cluncky seeing it.

 

 

 

 

[Aaron.1294]

@arazoth.7290 except drazeh played DE not rev

make hammer 3 quicker reduce it's evade frame and revenant is balanced

Edited April 30 by Aaron.1294

[arazoth.7290]

16 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@arazoth.7290 except drazeh played DE not rev

make hammer 3 quicker reduce it's evade frame and revenant is balanced

Lmao mindkittened, Thought Dra was Drazeh alt or something he logged. I got confused apparantly by watching whos name 😂. 

And shorter evade from skill 3 nty, it's an evade others can see coming. Because I can forsee complaints coming, the dodge is too fast hitting me while I can't counter and then it gets nerfed. I have never seen anyone till now have a problem with evade skill 3 labeling it as too strong or such

[Shao.7236]

2 hours ago, Endorphin.9147 said:

6 pages later and people are still trying to crack the code on hammer vindi

Thing was slept on even before the changes. Literally outside having easier damage output, nothing else changed on Hammer. It's the same thing that I was recruited for a MAT when EoD was fresh. It didn't stop stuff like Specter from being massively broken tho. It also didn't have two evades yet I felt it was already in a strong position, but when they announced the changes, it was easy to predict that it would become the new problem eventually.

[Flowki.7194]

15 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

hey just out of curiosity have u ever made a post that wasn't a thinly veiled "they nerfed my cata!" complaint?

just wondering

I predominantly played core, tempest and hammer cata, I rarely played scepter/focus cata, which is what youre hinting at. But do explain why you feel multiple perfectly fine specs got nerfed into none existance becuase of condi cata, and why I should be happy about that? And now, the same thing is breathing down the neck of power vindi (I predominantly play core rev btw, its not personal). All I care about are decently skilled specs being great/in the meta, hammer vindi takes decent skill.. I don't like to see such specs get destroyed becuase a bunch of gold 1-3 players can't take getting slapped about by a P+ player on a spec they know nothing about.

When specs with high skill floor/punishing mechanics are popular, SUPERB. Holo, herald, Vindi, power ele, power untamed etc. If they are not good at the spec, their face tanking leads to death, fast, if they are better than me, then I die. I like it that way, an emphesis on skill rather than spec choice.

 

14 hours ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@arazoth.7290 @Flowki.7194 just watch MAT and see for yourself how stupid vindi hammer can really be...

 

The fact that you have to go to the smallest % of the playerbase to prove your point, is proving my point. The vindis you are likely to come across, are not good enough to course you much bother. If they do, they simply outskill you, and would destroy you on any other capable power spec. It is the exact same as holo/power untamed/power cata, high skill floor/punishing; 95% of the time, losing to those specs mean you were outskilled. It is only once you reached the very top level, where you see a true "class counters", as in X spec has 0 chance vs untamed/cata etc.

 

That right there is the problem with low skill floor specs that are effective.. you will find those "class counters" in lower elos, for half the effort/skill, and it is intolerable to play against. Hammer vindi is not that, so be careful what you ask for... becuase with every spec that gets nerfed, another takes its place. Again; mace ranger.. still flying under the radar.

Edited April 30 by Flowki.7194

[Aaron.1294]

@arazoth.7290 therefore making it easier to land but also easier to counter should make it less oppressive  when rev decides to go even tankier build

@Flowki.7194 Tell me man, what do you think "top level gamer" is in gw2 right now. Dude that knows what dodge means? Or maybe the one that can stow their weapons so they won't get their projectiles reflected or cds wasted? or maybe the one who can deliver combos while kiting?

All I can see that there is a problem with vindi, most players are very unhappy that it can delete ur hp bar while having better defensive options and deal more damage than sword/sword and is RANGED. If you can't see it as a problem because of "high skill floor gaming" that requires you to understand what dodging or kiting is, u shouldn't make any comments about balance because you have 0 clue what you're talking about.