Chrono: Undo Oct 17th 2023 Nerf to Split Second

[Terrorhuz.4695]

4 minutes ago, Rdm.3186 said:

Your argument was (at least the one i was refering to since i started to talk directly to you), that you say chrono has to give up more than it gains when dropping one core line and with that should do more or at least same dmg than core. What is, from a balance pov, simply wrong. 

My argument was that power chrono was fine before the nerfs, in terms of counterplayability, damage and tradeoffs. It just did hit that sweet spot of being good without being broken. The only problem came frome excessive survivability from Signet of Illusions being able to restore Distortion, which is problematic in every mesmer and it's not a problem directly stemming from chrono. F1 hit for less, but with the right setup it could hit for more. You lose survivability, but shattering correctly give you alacrity to get some of that survivability back. It did work and the nerf was unwarranted. That's it.

[Rdm.3186]

11 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

My argument was that power chrono was fine before the nerfs, in terms of counterplayability, damage and tradeoffs. It just did hit that sweet spot of being good without being broken. The only problem came frome excessive survivability from Signet of Illusions being able to restore Distortion, which is problematic in every mesmer and it's not a problem directly stemming from chrono. F1 hit for less, but with the right setup it could hit for more. You lose survivability, but shattering correctly give you alacrity to get some of that survivability back. It did work and the nerf was unwarranted. That's it.

When a mesmer main like Shorts (i will just take the word of @Hightop.8294 here) called chrono offensively broken before the nerf, then it seems there can be different opinions about what is the correct amount of dmg on chrono even in current gamestate. No?

Casually you can ask for the dmg to stay as before, where you could compete with broken meta (a nono imo).

With a skilled competitive mindset you can say it needed a good nerf when you compare it to a gamestate where the skill ceiling is way higher than currently  and with that the power creep in offensive and defensive spam and forgiveness way lower than currently. That is the Melcor pov.

And you can have the opinion that they overnerfed it a bit (also a nerf was justified, just not that much)  in case it dropped as low as you make it look like. That would be my pov, because i do not care for GW2 being only a casual game with zero competition and low skill ceiling since years as much as ppl with melcors mindset and skill lvl.

Edited May 1 by Rdm.3186

[Deadmoose.6594]

16 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

2. True, chrono loses some instant dmg on f1 but getting additional hitspam/ zone-denial for that.

Can you explain to me how f1 is zone denial? F1 shatter can be easily dodged, and once they shattered they're gone...there's literally almost 0 zone denial...

16 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

Step 3: Doing the right comparision with the example Chrono for Dueling

You're missing the point, why are we comparing mes with mes? The topic is about power chrono, and how it is ineffective in the current meta. You make good points about comparing mes internally but that's not what this is about.

14 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I almost stopped playing power chrono for a reason; after the damage nerf it can't keep up with the meta. People facetank the burst and survive, that's literally it.

I mean yeah, this is literally all we've been saying.

14 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

There are 2/3 variations of a power build you can play, you test those and you find out they all are worse than the alternatives without offering much beyond grav well and CS; they're cool, but you're good once every 60s (if you're alive; you DID give up survivability) and a worse mesmer the rest of the time. That's it. You can write all the essays you want, then you try to apply your reasoning and it just doesn't work.

Exactly.

14 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

The only skills you actually care about are autoattacks, gs2, gs5

I actually disagree with you here, opening with g3 is important here for applying vuln if you took those traits, and g4 is a pretty solid attack and a good way to get the opponent to use up a dodge.

13 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

and when you have no fun in abusing zero braincell meta builds to compete in tourneys just because opponents will do the same, opponent who are actually not even a challenge skillwise but low skill ceiling makes them a challenge the moment you choose a fair balanced high skill demand build) than it is just a different approach.  Both have a right to exist. The question is, what does GW2 wants to be for a game? It started as competitive game including e-sports and is now a casual pve driven game where every pleb can feels as if he is good at the game/ class he plays. 

Right, let's now start talking about Anet's philosophy for spvp all. Let's stop here and discuss what Anet should do, but let's leave every broken OP build as is and let them exist. But when it comes to chrono and mesmer, let's not talk about an overnerf and just focus on the entire game mode instead. That's about as realistic as Melcor sabotaging the topic by trying to suggest Anet should decrease the survivability instead of just balancing chrono to the current meta.

Edited May 2 by Deadmoose.6594

[Rdm.3186]

4 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

Can you explain to me how f1 is zone denial? F1 shatter can be easily dodged, and once they shattered they're gone...there's literally almost 0 zone denial...

Forcing another dodge is already zone denial, a pretty strong one even, and in case the target has to dodge because he is too near to the center of the aoe to just walk out of it also baits out one more defensive cd than core f1. Baiting defensives with offensive moves (means using skills to force a defensive reaction not to actually hit the skill and also fake cast ofc to bait out cds is an important way of reactive and interactive outplays of the opponent, Terror seems not to be that familiar with when he complains about telegraphed greatsword bursts ppl can avoid so easy in his world and gs3 not being a skill opponents need to care about).

Depending how near you are to the chrono (or better, to the center of the second f1 tick) you might can just move out, what still means it forces movement and repositioning from the opponent or staying out of the aoe zone until the proc happend. At least gives you breathing time against melee attacks since it forces the opponent out of that specific aoe area for a brief amount of time or just trade with the dmg (means eating the tick).

Which means, with going from core f1 to chrono f1, you give up some of the instant dmg for non instant dmg+some defensive value+utility value (adittional blind or aegis remove from the additional hit spam). Balanced tradeoff. 

Just as the tradeoff from dueling vs chrono is balanced.

4 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

You're missing the point, why are we comparing mes with mes? The topic is about power chrono, and how it is ineffective in the current meta. You make good points about comparing mes internally but that's not what this is about.

Because Terror compared what chrono loses and gains compared to core mes in a very subjective, trivial and manipulative way and from an objective balance pov wrong. He more focused on what chrono loses and what core gains, forgetting what chrono gains and core loses. Also compared apples with oranges to fake the truth into his favor. That triggered me. So i replied to his inner-mesmer-comparision and put it into the right way of doing it.

 

4 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

That's about as realistic as Melcor sabotaging the topic by trying to suggest Anet should decrease the survivability instead of just balancing chrono to the current meta.

Melcor joined the thread to add his opinion, that asking for power chrono to be able to compete with current meta is asking to be just as op and easy to play as current meta. You also ask for Anet to balance the game in a way every build can compete on around same lvl (ofc not exactly the same meta lvl since that is impossible, but at least no build, also the skillful builds, dropping behind remarkable). That is not possible  in a game with low skill ceiling. Since you need high skill ceiling (you can have lower skill floor but not low skill ceiling) if you want builds who are a bit weaker than the meta picks still be able to compete, since for that even little skill differences of opponents need to matter. This is just not the case atm. High skill differences matter barely outside of mirror build duels atm, since the build carry is so high and the skill ceiling that low. Like i fought drazeh on staff warrior and some random g3 staff warrior and it barely made any difference to me. That is ridiculous. You will not find a good player who can play a non meta build in mat and win (maybe in NA bc USA is as team just so much stronger but even they go meta in finals), since even with more effort and skill input the build will not be able to compete against the build carry.

And why should a good player play a build needs more skill and effort, when it does not give a higher reward, not even when played very well? When you can have the same reward and impact with lower risk and lower effort? In high skill ceiling games you still can make harder to play builds work if the harder to play build has rewards over a low effort, low ceiling build when played well. That is not the case in gw2. Get what i mean? So asking for buffs to underperforming builds to be able to compete in metas, which have an overall low ceiling,  is asking for making those builds just as low skill ceiling as meta and with that makes the game worse and worse and easier and easier.

And another point: Anet does not have that much resources. They try to give every class at least one build that can compete (other classes have more than one, yes but they cannot achieve that for every class, so at least one build each class seems to be the goal). Since Anet devs are clueless and bad at the game they go for a casual low skill ceiling approach, so for mesmer it seems they wanted bunker support to be that one good meta build (because that was good for the game during esl already right? 😂). So if you want to play the game on meta spam and facetank lvl,  not bothering  about playing something op and with zero skill and brain needed, than you have 2 options: Play another class or play bunker support mesmer. 

But ooooh... now the ego power mes player jumps in and tells you, how braindead that playstyle is, and thats why you do not want to play it. But those ppl miss that making chrono do so much broken dmg to be able to compete in the meta, means you make power chrono just as braindead as bunker support, just in a different way. Since ppl seem to msiss that oppressive offensive is also a skill ceiling killer (needs to be on a higher lvl and overall less than bunker kitten does kill ceiling but still). So that makes no sense. IF you want to play something skillful, something you can be proud of and know you win by skill not by build, than play power mes and be handicapped in a game with overall low skill ceiling. OR ask for the game to be overall more skillful/ over all higher ceiling, if you want a skillful playstyle to be able to compete. 

 

So there you have options for every skill lvl and mindset to play this game and make balance suggestions for the game without contradicting yourself:

 

1. You either don't care to be carried by build, so you play meta (mesmer has a meta build= support chrono)

 

2.or you want to play skillful builds like power mesmer, and than you dont ask for the skillful builds to be overbuffed into the same low skillceiling meta since than it is not skillful anymore (and with that contradicts itself). So you leave power chrono builds for ppl who have the skill and the will to win by skill and overcome a handicap and accept an otherwise braindead gamestate

 

3.or you ask for the game to become overall more skillful so your skillful build can compete without becoming the same braindead low ceiling meta kitten (Melcors pov). 

Edited May 2 by Rdm.3186

[Terrorhuz.4695]

1 hour ago, Rdm.3186 said:

He more focused on what chrono loses and what core gains, forgetting what chrono gains and core loses

at this point I'm persuaded you're very capable of writing and not as much at reading.

1 hour ago, Rdm.3186 said:

do so much broken dmg to be able to compete in the meta, means you make power chrono just as braindead as bunker support,

No. The build runs with 15k hp, light armor, no stab\no prot\no barrier\slow movement\no cleanse; if you're braindead you die, and has always been this way for gs mesmer. It just doesn't work.
And you know your claim is false: even when F1 had its old damage, power chronomancers weren't dominating the meta at any level. They were represented at all levels, but never dominating because gs mesmer, by design, has always been very counterplayble.

Edited May 2 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Rdm.3186]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

at this point I'm persuaded you're very capable of writing and not as much at reading.

No. The build runs with 15k hp, light armor, no stab\no prot\no barrier\slow movement\no cleanse; if you're braindead you die, and has always been this way for gs mesmer. It just doesn't work.
And you know your claim is false: even when F1 had its old damage, power chronomancers weren't dominating the meta at any level. They were represented at all levels, but never dominating because gs mesmer, by design, has always been very counterplayble.

OMG dude thinks having counterplay is the only variable determines if something is well balanced, fair and healthy designed or not and that running a zero defense build (what is not even the case for glass chrono) with oneshot dmg is the peak of skill ceiling. Power mesmer is a burst class, that is not the same as an assassin oneshot class. Burstbuild does not mean you need to be able to kill or almost kill a full hp light target with only one inc (it does not matter how many buttons you press at same time during that inc), so that you win the fight in the first inc, because from that moment on, the opponent is so hard in disadvantage that he cannot even outplay you to turn the wheels in a skillful interactive response..

A onetrick pony gimmick gank playstyle where you die the moment someone looks at you (because you have nearly zero active defense tools) while you also kill targets the moment you look at it, does not enable reactive and interactive and with that skillful gameplay, outside of shooter games. More skillful than bunker? Yes, but not much behind in braindeadness, EVEN when you die fast the moment someone looks at you. That is also not what the power greatswortd mesmer kit is build around, a oneshot gank style, since you still have some mechanically very strong defensive mechanics in the basic kit all mesmers specs share right now + some good utiltiy (while i agree that some utilties are too good or just unhealthy in its design, like signet of illusion) and elite options for that purpose.

The only statement of yours i can agree to is, that 800 critical dmg for the instant tick of chrono f1 on a light armor class and 350 noncrit happening frequentlyina correct played and setup shatterburst is too less dmg! Also compared to a higher skill ceiling gamestate melcor aims for. When that alone is your problem, than we agree,

But from what you all wrote outside of that, you seem to have some issues to be able to play mesmer in a reactive/ interactive way as glass canon, even when better mesmers still can do it and call out an offensive opness of chrono (before the last nerf to f1). 

Every other argument you brought up i directly dismantled as comparing apples with oranges and from an balance pov objectively wrong and that the issue from you is more  (so i have to assume at least) a skill issue of not being able to reactively outplay opponents by baiting cds. Instead you complain about telegraphed skills and counterplay so it looks you either need to rely on non reactive oneshot playstyle or you play builds that simply outspam the defensive abilties of opponents with too high dmg spam and/ or cc spam. Both things chrono is (or at least was pre nerf) also good at by its basic design.

You overvalue the things chrono lose and core gains, untervalue things chrono gets and core loses. And the idea to take away even more defensives from the basic chrono kit (your suggestion to make distort channeled on chrono) to justify non reactive amount of dmg (i play glass, i want to oneshot a thief even when i have weakness on me... your words! loool) are going into the totally wrong direction imo. Better is, to hold chronos basic kit of active defense, so it actually has a balanced not spammable amount of active defense to enable it to stay in ractive/ interactive fights for a bit more than just one assassin gank move and than lower the dmg to fit that defensive ability and just rework the problematic traitlines and utilities that actually make bunker/ support mesmer broken and braindead, while also causing issues on other mesmer builds (like inspi signet invul spam, signet of illusion etc.)

[Terrorhuz.4695]

5 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

OMG dude thinks having counterplay is the only variable determines if something is well balanced, fair and healthy designed or not

I fail to see how that's weird. Yes, if the outcome of a fight is entirely up to how well you and your opponent play, it is fair. I make a mistake I die, you make a mistake you die. How can that be problematic?

5 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

and that running a zero defense build (what is not even the case for glass chrono) with oneshot dmg is the peak of skill ceiling.

You're running a super glassy and risky build, and you're getting away with it despite one random passive being enough to deny your entire gameplay? Yes, it's good skill.

5 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

A onetrick pony gimmick gank playstyle where you die the moment someone looks at you (because you have nearly zero active defense tools) while you also kill targets the moment you look at it, does not enable reactive and interactive and with that skillful gameplay, outside of shooter games.

Except it does enable interactive gameplay. OFC you don't drag the fight for 30m like a fire weaver vs fire weaver duel would; I'm advocating for the glass cannon for a reason. But if you facetank the burst (which is at least 4 skills in melee range: GS2 => MoD => F1 => GS3; then you can add blink, continuum split, mirror images, F2, precast gs4... you can easily get in the 7/8 skills territory) and also don't cleanse the vulnerability, and also sit in the pulsing AoE, you deserve to die. After all, I don't get to facetank 4 skills from a vindicator, or a berserker, or a dragonhunter, or a willbender. For some of these classes even 2 skills are enough to kill me.

5 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

But from what you all wrote outside of that, you seem to have some issues to be able to play mesmer in a reactive/ interactive way as glass canon, even when better mesmers still can do it and call out an offensive opness of chrono (before the last nerf to f1).

GS mesmer can survive only when playing reactively. F3 to rupt key skills, dry F4 to cover your burst from random blinds, sword2 for fast evades, sword3 for jukes; reactivity is literally the only way to survive because the kit allows little to no room for errors. You don't "cleanse", you don't "resustain", you don't "barrier", all you have is positioning and a few active defensives.

5 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

the issue from you is more  (so i have to assume at least) a skill issue of not being able to reactively outplay opponents by baiting cds.

I reiterate: you're unable to read. I want mistakes to have consequences. I facetank your stuff, I die; you facetanks my stuff, you die. That's it. A willbender every 8s gets to erase up to 13k hp out of my 16k HP health pool with one skill, just saying. And that is fine: they specifically built to be a glass cannon, they get both the glass and the cannon. But if that's the case I also want actual damage.

5 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

You overvalue the things chrono lose and core gains, untervalue things chrono gets and core loses.

OR I just played chrono very intensely and after the nerf found every other alternative to be all around more effective. Once again: your claims are cool and all, then you bring them in game and you get farmed.

5 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

i want to oneshot a thief even when i have weakness on me... your words! loool

I reiterate: you're unable to read. I don't want to oneshot with weakness; I'm saying it's very counterplayble, to the point that a passive trait (weakness after dodge) denies the intended effect of 5/6 skills, or more; let alone reactive stuff.

5 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

just rework the problematic traitlines and utilities that actually make bunker/ support mesmer broken and braindead, while also causing issues on other mesmer builds (like inspi signet invul spam, signet of illusion etc.)

And once again you don't have the faintest trace of a clue as to what you're talking about. The problematic traitlines haven't been problematic anymore for months now; the only real issue came from signets allowing distortion spam, and that was changed a couple patches ago (the traits now directly compete with each other; you can either trait your signets with distortion OR you get resustain\cleanse on shatter, but you can't take both like you used to).

The only thing left is Signet of Illusions, which allows for any mesmer build to survive stuff they shouldn't survive, and that holds true for both glass cannons, bunkers and supports. But chrono damage was never a problem; it came with a decent set of drawbacks and clear counters, and the counters are still there whereas the damage is not. You're taking risks without getting the payout, and there is no reason to run power chronomancers anymore; players noticed that and stopped using the build altogether (even after the most recent buffs to Dueling, which were actually significant but ultimately pointless for power chrono).

Edited May 2 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Deadmoose.6594]

8 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

Which means, with going from core f1 to chrono f1, you give up some of the instant dmg for non instant dmg+some defensive value+utility value (adittional blind or aegis remove from the additional hit spam). Balanced tradeoff. 

Just as the tradeoff from dueling vs chrono is balanced.

Tell me you don't play power chrono without telling me you don't play power chrono. I can tell you right now that the majority of shatters in a team fight don't get purposefully dodged or mitigated some other way by like a block or an aegis. I don't see the staggered shatters as a disadvantage, I see it as an advantage. When they don't hit, it's usually because the target just got lucky in a zerg fight and had some defense going at the time. Most people in a team fight situation aren't paying attention to the chrono sending shatters their way, which just emphasizes my point even more. The shatters can be facetanked and the player carries on because of survivability for some classes in the current meta (war, ranger, ele, necro shroud - though this is forgiven for the most part because they have two health bars).

8 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

Melcor joined the thread to add his opinion, that asking for power chrono to be able to compete with current meta is asking to be just as op and easy to play as current meta.

I don't think so at all, all we're asking is for chrono to do what it is supposed to do. We know its survivability isn't very good, it will still have a lot of weaknesses (thief, mirage, rangers), but right now we're not taking out warriors and we're supposed to be the counter for warrior.

4 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

(while i agree that some utilties are too good or just unhealthy in its design, like signet of illusion)

I disagree with signet of illusion being unhealthy. About half the time if I'm in a situation where I have to use it the cast time is long enough that I'm dead anyway before I even get it and another f4 off, or I do pull off my signet and manage a second f4 while I'm trying to run away but die anyway as it means I'm getting ganked by 3-4 people. Outside of blocking twice with shield 4 if the second block is even available, and blink to try to escape a fight, that's literally all we have. Again, I like the survivability where its at. There are ways to use those abilities to pull off a lot of stuff, but it is the most glass class and build in the game, which is why I'm calling for it to actually be the damage benchmark. It should be doing the most damage in the game. I'm not saying it should be OP, I'm saying it should be doing the most damage.

8 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

2.or you want to play skillful builds like power mesmer, and than you dont ask for the skillful builds to be overbuffed into the same low skillceiling meta since than it is not skillful anymore (and with that contradicts itself). So you leave power chrono builds for ppl who have the skill and the will to win by skill and overcome a handicap and accept an otherwise braindead gamestate

This is what I'm doing right now, except I'm not asking to be overbuffed, I'm asking to be on par in the current meta. Being balanced doesn't mean it's suddenly overbuffed, braindead, low skill ceiling. I don't buy that Anet devs can't balance this, they definitely can. They're the ones who nerfed it to begin with.

Edited May 2 by Deadmoose.6594
meant f4 not f3

[Nepster.4275]

I haven been looking at this thread day by day to find some gems to get a good laugh at, people still do not seem to understand that mesmer is broken in it's core, hence it cannot really be taken as part of the game as of now as a real contender to anything, neither as a benchmark for damage neither as a skill cap benchmark and neither as being anywhere near to be part of the so called "meta" and I will even go into why

Mesmer as a damage benchmark, without taking ANY skill cap or survival skills (meaning we don't count how much buttons needed to pressed for max damage) into count is nothing special, most of the other classes have somewhat of the same damage, a reaper can burst you for the same numbers, a herald/vindi can burst you for the same numbers, meme riffle warrior, DH and so on, so with this mesmer cannot be a damage benchmark to anything since there is no synergy between how burst is happening in this game, for example a reaper can NCSY -> CTTB -> Reaper 4 and it will surely do the same damage or somewhere near as what a mesmer (daze+GS2+GS3+F1) does, but the problem with this is that while reaper can execute most of it's burst quite frequently, the same is not true for mesmer, having a benchmark of pure damage without any skill cap/CD involved can not work also for mesmer to pull somwhat or normal numbers in terms of damage a lot of things need to happen for it, meaning that the enemy should not be able to dodge/stunbreak, should not have aegis nor blocks while with Reaper you can be more reactive, since you can precast reaper 3 in case the enemy stunbreaks from CTTB

TLDR: There is no way anything can be a damage benchmark in this game, due to the versatility of the core class traits/mechanics

As a skillcap benchmark, well, some people have said here that mesmer is hard to pull off and people who are complaining about it are just having skill issues, this can be true to some degree BUT it's rather less of a true statement due to the fact that a high skillcap should come with a high reward, and in mesmer's case we are not talking about any rewards compared to other classes mentioned above, if you do not believe this, go and watch a stream of the mentioned player called Shorts who said "mesmer is OP"(Even tho this isn't actually true), he is playing mesmer to it's full potential, and you can see him getting beaten by other classes that are more straight forward, so how can we compare a 95% potential vs 50% potential(someone else on a random class) and still the 50% wins, if mesmer would require such a high skillcap it should also have such high rewards and the above mentioned theoritical fight should end the other way, I played against Shorts on mesmer in not even one match as a condi reaper, he had no chance while I was just trying out the class, the unblockable marks+condies+weakness against a class that has no way of cleansing them aside from weapon swap in which case it loses it's ability to burst is not a skillcap issue, it's simply that mesmer as I said above can not be considered as a viable contender for this meta, and no, in no way I am calling Shorts a bad player, he is one of the best regardless of what class he players, but this example shows that mesmer can be beaten by most if no every class even when it's being played by someone who's able to minmax it mechanically

A lot of people are saying that mesmer has defenses, and while this is true, mesmer defense is just nothing compared to what other classes have, and this is the point where people would come up with F4, yes F4 is really useful but keep in mind, it's the only skill that can be considered as defense due to the fact that other classes have passive healing/damage reduc and other things baked into the traits while mesmer only has F4, even if we take a basic DPS build like LB SLB which isn't even a meta build, it has 1.5k range burst that can be unblockable, you have your pet which is already more defense than what F4 is capable of doing for you, not even talking about the fact that even if you are fully invuln even to condies, you have no cleanses and condies will kill you after F4 wears off

So all in all, mesmer was just not made for this meta where most of the classes that are opted to full damage are partly or fully countering passively (aegis/stab spam/blocks) or actively like thief can do or even willbender, or even Untamed or condi reaper, mesmer has a lot of problems and neither of them are starting with the fact that F1 does more damage or not, the time where chrono could dominate new players is gone, since the classes and builds became too tanky, while mesmer damage got cut due to all the whining on the forums while everyone forgot that most people with very little knowledge could counter chronos even back when it used to be good, and this isn't just chrono, virt is the same, clunky/slow/annoying blade mechanics and so on

It's pointless to prove or disprove mesmer's state in this current meta since it's not even part of it, ofc talking about the DPS variants only, support mesmer is a whole another topic

 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Terrorhuz is right that Chrono was fine before the nerfs (certainly not overpowered), and some forum frogs contibuted to worsening the class by complaining about not being able to dodge moa.

However it's not true that core power mesmer is better than chrono power mesmer, chrono has a lot of advantages like movement speed, lower cooldowns on everything, double elite sills, superspeed shatters.

The proper way to buff power mesmer would thus be to buff core power mesmer, and nerf Mirage slightly to compensate. This would help core, it would help chrono and it would help virtuoso - the three underperformers.

[Deadmoose.6594]

8 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Terrorhuz is right that Chrono was fine before the nerfs (certainly not overpowered), and some forum frogs contibuted to worsening the class by complaining about not being able to dodge moa.

Moa is really only a factor in arena, but in arena it is the most OP bs ability there is in the game. It literally just wins the game for you. You might as well click the button and automatically be gifted the win.

53 minutes ago, Nepster.4275 said:

It's pointless to prove or disprove mesmer's state in this current meta since it's not even part of it, ofc talking about the DPS variants only, support mesmer is a whole another topic

Really only going to reply to this as this seems to be your main point. I disagree, you can see how it stacks up to the current meta. The resounding message is that it doesn't do well. I don't know what else to say.

[Rdm.3186]

7 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I fail to see how that's weird. Yes, if the outcome of a fight is entirely up to how well you and your opponent play, it is fair. I make a mistake I die, you make a mistake you die. How can that be problematic?

You're running a super glassy and risky build, and you're getting away with it despite one random passive being enough to deny your entire gameplay? Yes, it's good skill.

Except it does enable interactive gameplay. OFC you don't drag the fight for 30m like a fire weaver vs fire weaver duel would; I'm advocating for the glass cannon for a reason. But if you facetank the burst (which is at least 4 skills in melee range: GS2 => MoD => F1 => GS3; then you can add blink, continuum split, mirror images, F2, precast gs4... you can easily get in the 7/8 skills territory) and also don't cleanse the vulnerability, and also sit in the pulsing AoE, you deserve to die. After all, I don't get to facetank 4 skills from a vindicator, or a berserker, or a dragonhunter, or a willbender. For some of these classes even 2 skills are enough to kill me.

GS mesmer can survive only when playing reactively. F3 to rupt key skills, dry F4 to cover your burst from random blinds, sword2 for fast evades, sword3 for jukes; reactivity is literally the only way to survive because the kit allows little to no room for errors. You don't "cleanse", you don't "resustain", you don't "barrier", all you have is positioning and a few active defensives.

I reiterate: you're unable to read. I want mistakes to have consequences. I facetank your stuff, I die; you facetanks my stuff, you die. That's it. A willbender every 8s gets to erase up to 13k hp out of my 16k HP health pool with one skill, just saying. And that is fine: they specifically built to be a glass cannon, they get both the glass and the cannon. But if that's the case I also want actual damage.

OR I just played chrono very intensely and after the nerf found every other alternative to be all around more effective. Once again: your claims are cool and all, then you bring them in game and you get farmed.

I reiterate: you're unable to read. I don't want to oneshot with weakness; I'm saying it's very counterplayble, to the point that a passive trait (weakness after dodge) denies the intended effect of 5/6 skills, or more; let alone reactive stuff.

And once again you don't have the faintest trace of a clue as to what you're talking about. The problematic traitlines haven't been problematic anymore for months now; the only real issue came from signets allowing distortion spam, and that was changed a couple patches ago (the traits now directly compete with each other; you can either trait your signets with distortion OR you get resustain\cleanse on shatter, but you can't take both like you used to).

The only thing left is Signet of Illusions, which allows for any mesmer build to survive stuff they shouldn't survive, and that holds true for both glass cannons, bunkers and supports. But chrono damage was never a problem; it came with a decent set of drawbacks and clear counters, and the counters are still there whereas the damage is not. You're taking risks without getting the payout, and there is no reason to run power chronomancers anymore; players noticed that and stopped using the build altogether (even after the most recent buffs to Dueling, which were actually significant but ultimately pointless for power chrono).

Dude there is a difference between being properly punished for facetanking in an interactive fight both opponents have a chance to actively participate and being deleted from 100 to zero in under 1 second, in particular when this can happen out of stealth and combined with an instant max range teleport in a main gamemode where you have to pay attention to 8 other players as well.. And no, one mistake (does not even need to be a mistake, can be a server lag or ping issue that you dodge 1/4 sec too late and thats it, what a skillful win you achieve there as oneshot wonder...) should not already be a death sentence. 2-3 mistakes? Yes, that should be your death. Every first inc, even when fully hitting, should still enable the opponent  to flip the coin with heavily outplaying the opponent and recover from it in an interactive, reactive interaction. Recover potential after getting hit for once is basic requirement for skillful and interactive fights. So oneshots in the meaning of killing in the first inc in one second or less is not healthy nor skillful.

Other arguments you have are again just saying "but other clases can do even more with less effort"- mimimi "and i want that too". Than play those classes if you do not care to play a skillful mesmer. If you want to be pink play support as meta. Simple. And ofc i know that inspi got a rework but the signet inculn trait is still stupid by itself and should be reworked imo. Teh purpose of a burst build is not to be able to oneshot a thief, not even without weakness. That is were you go wrong already. How about you ask me before judging that i have no clue... asking me  if i know that inspi got reworked and just ask what and why i still think is a problem? You just try to find parts in my posts you can use to make me look clueless and prove me wrong, while you go over dead bodies to win an argument. Deadmoose gives me more a feeling that he rly tries to understand my points (aksing about the zone denial withotu annegative judge included already), asking me to explain before judging, what i did not expect from him tbh. I am surprised positive by his attidude and did expect more from you. Another reason why  discussing with you in particular annoys the hell out of me atm.

Also it is rly basic balance understanding, that the skill ceiling does NOT linear increases the more defense you give away and the more dmg you then add to compensate for the decreasing active defense. At some point you decrease the skill ceiling by deleting more active defensive outplay option and becoming a oneshot onetrick gimmick meme with an unhealthy amout of dmg (since you cannot fight reactive and interactive anymore at some point your active defense is too low, so killing in a non interactive oneshot/ ganking is all you can do). There is a break point, like a bell curve. And the maximum skill ceiling (the top of the curve) is not the point with max dmg and very low to zero  active defense. If you complain, that your chrono build has not enough defense to be played in healthy  reactive and interactive fights lasting longer than 1 secs and includes options of counterplay, also after getting it from the first inc, and includes recovery outplays for the opponent, then you either are just not good enough to play this build or your build is just not well balanced in terms of the amount of active defense (has an unhealthy low amount of active defense) and is with that not a healthy build. 

Anyway you again compare apples and oranges and mix up things in a nonsensical way, it is actually insane. I am getting a bit too tired of it to make even more of an essay response and go thru all your points step by step. I could! But im sick of writing essays talking to a wall. So i do not go further here. Stay with your opinion and i stay with mine. Should be fine for both of us.

If power chrono was fine or offensively broken before the nerf is a matter of taste, taste depending on what skill ceiling you want to have in that game and for mesmer, and also a matter of personal skill lvl. Because the worse someone is at the game or a specific class, the less op and the less easy to play he will personally experience and rate it. So i do not even dispute about that.

I was here to get some funny duel content and got triggered by your way of arguing when doing comparisions between core and chrono. And i tried to explain why ppl like melcor can have a totally different opinion about the gamestate and the mesmer balance according to his competitive mindset and high skill lvl. And that all those povs have a right to exist. So ppl like melcor should be also allowed to add their opinion without being accused of not playing mesmer or sabotaging the thread or such nonsense.

I am done here. Mesmer mains maaan... 🤦‍♂️  

Edited May 2 by Rdm.3186

[Deadmoose.6594]

12 minutes ago, Rdm.3186 said:

So ppl like melcor should be also allowed to add their opinion without being accused of not playing mesmer or sabotaging the thread or such nonsense.

Nobody is preventing anyone from replying to this thread, but I also have a right to defend my argument, which I believe is more valid based on my perspective of maining this spec. As in, literally ride or die with this spec. Even if its not performing well because of nerfs, I still use it. Melcor had more of an opinion about the overall gamestate, but we've already beat that dead horse.

19 minutes ago, Rdm.3186 said:

Other arguments you have are again just saying "but other clases can do even more with less effort"- mimimi "and i want that too".

What do you mean by do more? All we're asking for here is to undo the nerf to the f1 shatter. It can still be mitigated in several ways, we just want less facetanking a full chrono shatter.

[Rdm.3186]

1 hour ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

Nobody is preventing anyone from replying to this thread, but I also have a right to defend my argument, which I believe is more valid based on my perspective of maining this spec. As in, literally ride or die with this spec. Even if its not performing well because of nerfs, I still use it. Melcor had more of an opinion about the overall gamestate, but we've already beat that dead horse.

It was more about how you defended your argument. Accusing him of not playing mesmer, then asking for a prove when he assures you that he does (implying he must be lying), then dodging the duels. Saying he sabotages this thread with his posts etc. You can disagree without devalueing ppl by calling them clueless. Or without accusing them of not being able to read like Terrorhuz does, even tho he is the one not even trying to understand my points, only trying to win an argument at any costs and devalueing my reading skills, while his are actually lacking.  I personally highly doubt (ofc cannot know for sure), that melcor has a less good understanding of the game and mesmer than you or terror. I think quite the opposite is the case. But as i explained in my last post already:

Quote

If power chrono was fine or offensively broken before the nerf is a matter of taste. Taste depending on what skill ceiling you want to have in that game and for mesmer, and also a matter of personal skill lvl. Because the worse someone is at the game or a specific class, the less op and the less easy to play he will personally experience and rate it. So i do not even dispute about that.

Edited May 2 by Rdm.3186

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

Moa is really only a factor in arena, but in arena it is the most OP bs ability there is in the game. It literally just wins the game for you. You might as well click the button and automatically be gifted the win.

I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say that if getting moad is an instant loss for you is because you don't know your buttons as duckmode

 

But

 

At the same time the sentiment is legit. Add jump to Moa /lockout utilities on mes if it lands to balance it maybe.  I think just allowing moaform to jumping puzzle would go a long way toward making it less free for arena. 

Edited May 2 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Mhina.1827]

On 4/27/2024 at 6:43 AM, Flowki.7194 said:

Im not complaining if mesmer in general is underplayed with its current mechanics. If its not spamming you with confusion its spamming you with daze, if not daze, then its invuln/block spam. All of those mechanics (ontop of target drops) lead to a very uninteractive engagement of just checking your debuffs, checking their buffs, and retargeting, it isn't fun to fight, ever. It isn't the only one mind you, SLB is still annoying af as nion all of its damage is track/lock on, with enough stab/0 0 0/stealth/cc to make it 1 way traffic for the first 10 seconds, WB is much the same, and thief is thief. They are just unengaging to duel.

 

Would they change mesmers reliance on this lack of interactive dueling? Unlikely, wish they would though.

Just wanted to say as someone who by far plays thief/mesmer the most (while I've asked about other classes, even most of my forum posts are about thief) I'm surprised this post got so many confused faces...lol I'd be interested in how anyone thinks this is false. 

[Deadmoose.6594]

Just now, Mhina.1827 said:

Just wanted to say as someone who by far plays thief/mesmer the most (while I've asked about other classes, even most of my forum posts are about thief) I'm surprised this post got so many confused faces...lol I'd be interested in how anyone thinks this is false. 

There are only two people here who think its false, and their opinions on the topic aren't as valuable as they don't main a mesmer so they're objectively clueless.

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say that if getting moad is an instant loss for you is because you don't know your buttons as duckmode

I have done better after learning the moa attacks, but its still prone to taking full shatters and damage spam. The dodge ability on it needs to be much faster in arena, that little one second delay = death.

6 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

It was more about how you defended your argument. Accusing him of not playing mesmer, then asking for a prove when he assures you that he does (implying he must be lying), then dodging the duels.

It was pretty clear that he doesn't main a mesmer in pvp. There's a big difference in being able to play a mesmer, and the actual experience of playing several matches a week as a mesmer. I'm literally on every night pvp'ing as a mesmer. He doesn't have this experience and it shows. As for dodging duels, I didn't engage with that because its a preposterous idea. Even if he were to win, it wouldn't prove or disprove anything related to my argument. You just wanted it to happen so you could get a good chortle out of it.

6 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

I personally highly doubt (ofc cannot know for sure), that melcor has a less good understanding of the game and mesmer than you or terror. I think quite the opposite is the case. But as i explained in my last post already:

Yeah come in here with your 32 posts and try to argue with me about who has a better understanding of the game and mesmer than I do. Rank =/= understanding of the game. Rank = understanding how to manipulate queue dodging, duo queueing AND understanding the game, but nobody should be considered a master over others because they know how to do the first two.

[Shagie.7612]

I've been avoiding making a real comment because it's not gonna actually convince anyone but whatever:

I don't think mesmer players know what it's like to actually be glass and vulnerable.
Not on a class with possible stealth(s), a long block on shield, non-targeted blink, continuum split, distortion, sword 2 and signet of illusions.

For example, Shorts is very good, but he also regularly overextends himself and plays really greedy in non-important matches, then manages to escape them anyways when something actually glass would have died just for thinking about it.

I think what's actually happening is mesmer players feel like they deserve to instantly kill anyone if they press their buttons but also don't want any of the consequences or drawbacks that necessarily come with that, nor for other players to have the ability to stop or survive it.
Thief players are the same.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

21 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I think what's actually happening is mesmer players feel like they deserve to instantly kill anyone if they press their buttons but also don't want any of the consequences or drawbacks that necessarily come with that, nor for other players to have the ability to stop or survive it.
Thief players are the same.

You're so close 

Think bigger

 

 

Edited May 3 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Shagie.7612]

7 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You're so close 

Nah, someone losing is unfair as a generalization, but it's definitely worse in some players of certain classes than others lol

[Terrorhuz.4695]

16 hours ago, Rdm.3186 said:

I was here to get some funny duel content and got triggered by your way of arguing when doing comparisions between core and chrono.

You didn't even bother taking a lvl1 mesmer in FFA for a 10 minutes ride before coming here with suggestions about what traits should people run and how should they play
Then refused to read the points of people who ACTUALLY bothered to do your own homework and tested your claims
Then got triggered when the findings you CBA to search wouldn't fit with your narrative.

Stay triggered, you deserve it. It will help you grow as a player and as a person. If the time you spent to write those 10 2k words essays was spent in the actual game, you would have had both your answers and your sanity.

And the reason why you are being called out instead of Melcor is because I might disagree with his points but he had the common sense to test them.

Edited May 3 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Moa is a buff.

Tldr thread: the spec that only has burst, because both sustain and sustain damage is garbage should not kill someone who facetank two bursts back to back. But mesmer should die because it's the risk of having put 7 skills on CD.

 

[Rdm.3186]

5 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

You didn't even bother taking a lvl1 mesmer in FFA for a 10 minutes ride before coming here with suggestions about what traits should people run and how should they play
Then refused to read the points of people who ACTUALLY bothered to do your own homework and tested your claims
Then got triggered when the findings you CBA to search wouldn't fit with your narrative.

Stay triggered, you deserve it. It will help you grow as a player and as a person. If the time you spent to write those 10 2k words essays was spent in the actual game, you would have had both your answers and your sanity.

And the reason why you are being called out instead of Melcor is because I might disagree with his points but he had the common sense to test them.

I never gave any suggestions about what ppl should play on mesmer, i just explained to you how to make comparisions which actually hit reality. Not more not less. Also i did never make any statement or shared any opinion about the current dmg of chrono, i even said i agree to you in case the dmg is as low (happening frequently and when played the class correctly) as you claim.

And i tried to explain that it makes no sense to have a dispute about the question if the pre nerf dmg was balanced compared to current gamestate or balanced compared to a hypothetically better balanced, higher ceiling gamestate or not. Since that is just a matter of personal mindset (depending on how much skill ceiling you want to have in the game, casual lower or very high ceiling) and also a matter of personal skill lvl, since worse player will rate the difficulty of the game and of a specific class/ build way higher than someone who is better at the game/ class/ build.

Again you have nothing left as response than passive agressive sidekicks that do not even hit the statements i made. Great reading skill and braincell showcase of yours. I guess you are just too emotional and too much a rage kiddo atm and too busy jumping on everyone disagreeing to you, that you can think straight anymore. 

 

11 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

There are only two people here who think its false, and their opinions on the topic aren't as valuable as they don't main a mesmer so they're objectively clueless.

Do you mesmer guys even pay attention to, or focus during reading the posts you reacting to? Check the Flowki comment Mhina is quoting again and then decide new if you agree to it... at least i would be surprised if you do agree to Flowki 😂

 

11 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

TIt was pretty clear that he doesn't main a mesmer in pvp. There's a big difference in being able to play a mesmer, and the actual experience of playing several matches a week as a mesmer.

Melcor lit assured you of doing so. What you expect him to do to prove? Duels are the only way to prove that he has enough skill to play power mesmer in pvp balance environement in a doable amout of time. Cringe to ask him for footage over months or for doing pvp matches with you. So he offered a decent way to prove that he actually can play mesmer (what you first also doubted), what then also gives you a good indicator that it is a low risk of believing him, that he plays it in pvp frequently, as he said he does. But you prefer to ask for impossible to deliver proves just to continue to claim something that is very very likeable wrong, while you do this based on zero evidence or indicator that you could be right... reality is not what you care for , you care only for being right no matter what, and you think the prove that you are right is the very questionable claim (also unproven btw)that you are more experienced, and with that right by default, both points i highly doubt as mentioned.

Also did not know that number of forum posts are an indicatior for the amount of game and class knowledge/ understanding 🧠 

For some mesmer mains in this channel, their reading sklills, braincells, reality check abilities, social competence, conflict abilities and logic where just an illusion all along... 🤦‍♂️

Waste of time talking to those kind of ppl. A low number of posts in this forum is for that a sign of being smart enough for not getting baited into this senseless time sink game too often. That is also why i said i want to stop here (so pls just let me gooooo) and why Melcor probably gave up long ago in this thread. 

Edited May 3 by Rdm.3186

[Rdm.3186]

24 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Moa is a buff.

Tldr thread: the spec that only has burst, because both sustain and sustain damage is garbage should not kill someone who facetank two bursts back to back. But mesmer should die because it's the risk of having put 7 skills on CD.

 

If you facetank both bursts from a chrono (means double cs burst) you ofc should be dead. No one here claimed otherwise. I was refering to eating the initial inc. Means only one burst. No one complains about a half hp amount of burst dmg. Also did even anyone in this thread complained about moa? Moa was not the topic at all until now, if i am not mistaken.

Edited May 3 by Rdm.3186

[Deadmoose.6594]

On 5/3/2024 at 8:41 AM, Rdm.3186 said:

Cringe to ask him for footage over months or for doing pvp matches with you.

No one asked for this, there are other ways to prove how much experience a person has with a certain spec.

On 5/3/2024 at 8:41 AM, Rdm.3186 said:

that you are more experienced

Anyone can message or mail me in game and we can exchange discords, I'll literally show you via screenshots.

 

 

User story #1: I went up against a team last night that had a berserker and a spellbreaker, and struggled against both. Oh, berserker can do 11k with one attack (Arc Divider) AND there are people here complaining about chrono shatter damage??? Not even mentioning the damage reduction, multiple blocks, full heals, and whatever ability they have that makes your damage pop 0's...yeah and mesmer is more survivable. I'm not buying it.

On 5/2/2024 at 9:52 PM, Shagie.7612 said:

I don't think mesmer players know what it's like to actually be glass and vulnerable.

I don't think you know what you're talking about. If we don't use those abilities, we are dead in literally one second. Whereas pretty much every single class aside from thief can run around taking damage while still attacking. So yes, mesmer is vulnerable. Once you run out of those abilities, that's it, you're dead. By the way, if we're using those abilities we're on the run, trying to get out of harms way and leaving combat because otherwise we're dead. We're not just standing there mitigating damage and swinging away like a warrior does, there's a huge difference.

Edited May 5 by Deadmoose.6594