condi mesmer with confusion damage getting more and more out of hand recently

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

They're not the same. Confusion hurts you for pressing buttons, Torment no longer does so.

Stop pressing buttons then.  If not attacking confusion does way less damage than torment:

Confusion (while not oonga boongaing your buttons): 10 damage per stack per second at level 80.

Torment (while moving): (0.054 * Condition Damage) + 19.8 damage per stack per second.

At 2k condi damage that's 127.8 damage a second per stack, while you are moving which is the 'weak' version of torment.

[Shagie.7612]

3 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Stop pressing buttons then.  If not attacking confusion does way less damage than torment:

Yeah, that's the point of it.

You're the one who made the weirdo complaint about condi rev because torment and tried to compare them lol

[arazoth.7290]

9 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Stop pressing buttons then.  If not attacking confusion does way less damage than torment:

Confusion (while not oonga boongaing your buttons): 10 damage per stack per second at level 80.

Torment (while moving): (0.054 * Condition Damage) + 19.8 damage per stack per second.

At 2k condi damage that's 127.8 damage a second per stack, while you are moving which is the 'weak' version of torment.

Stop pressing buttons? You only do 1v1 FFA arena dueling or what?

 

In a team fight if people are on you and while other condis also are ticking and let even in worst case add that you're cc'd.

In normal cases vs any other class/build you have some sort if counter play still. But no, you can't because if you press something 4,5k confusion ticks.

Because tou as starter to survive that stunbreak, already triggering one 4,5k. Now lets add that you want to use either a cleanse or leap away skill from the other danger or what many others are ticking on you. You can't because that's again another 4,5k..

Ez 9 k gone, no other class has that option atm in these amounts because lf that. 

The only thing you can pray for is that a support cleanses that from you

 

Confusion stacks are fine till 2-2,5k max bursts. Enough counterplay for whoever keeps pressing many skills on that.

But confusion shouldn't be a condi in higher amounts that you can't even afford a stunbreak or cleanse...

 

Also about oonga buttons pressing, I saw some time ago your untamed video you linked here. And that's exactly how it was played too. So you're in no right to talk about such if you're guilty yourself of that 😂👌

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Yeah, that's the point of it.

You're the one who made the weirdo complaint about condi rev because torment and tried to compare them lol

I did compare them, mathematically.  If you don't oonga boonga buttons confusion does very little compared to torment which will hurt you whether you move or not.  

 

48 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Also about oonga buttons pressing, I saw some time ago your untamed video you linked here. And that's exactly how it was played too. So you're in no right to talk about such if you're guilty yourself of that 😂👌

Apparently not enough oonga boonga'ing to make a complaint topic about getting wrecked by 9k confusion ticks.  

[Eddie.9143]

I play herald and vindi more than any other class, and I know that condi mes is a counter for Rev, classes have counters, vindi currently has very few. 

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

 

Apparently not enough oonga boonga'ing to make a complaint topic about getting wrecked by 9k confusion ticks.  

Why do I have to keep repeating myself... (read what I say and let it sink in ty).

These obscene high condition damage conditions are a part of the damaging conditions mesmers give. And in teamfights You don't only get confusion conditions because there could be a necromancer for example too.

Aside from other conditions from other players ontop of the mesmer too high confusion stacks, there is also power damage.

Other players can focus you too while you have that on, you're forced to respond then and not just waggle around waiting confusion out while everything else is trying to get you killed. 

Ontop of this again, you can get cc'd for few, you're forced to stunbreak out of it to not die by everything else or people taking opportunity because you're cc'd. 

Confusion condition mechanically wise promotes to use as less abilties as possible when it's on you. It shouldn't be shutting you completely down because of the absurd high amounts I see people putting out in bursts/overtime sustain confusion added on these to make it even more. This is just mesmer privilege that is taken for granted and even more recently.

I don't what specific change was made that suddenly I see builds being able to do 2k more confusion burst damage on mesmers. 3k's burst confusion was already on the higher end before and 2-2,5k's would be more balanced.

Just lower the amount of confusion stacks that can be put out by 50% to reach these numbers(I am not asking for lower confusion damage because it would hur others who have some acces to it too).

They can still balance the other conditions beside confusion like some buffs are already coming next patch. But confusion stack amount applied needs tuned down on mesmer...

 

[Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259]

22 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

I rarely make a thread about something for some tuning because mostly there is always some counter play.

Translation: "I rarely complain about balance as long as revenant is overpowered" 

 

Confusion, a condition with free counterplay that does miniscule damage if you simply use your skills wisely. Condition mesmer, the thing that has barely any additional burst outside of confusion and torment thus making the threat level non existent compared to other builds. 

Mesmers have to trait and build then land wet noodle damage telegraphed skills and combos in order to high stack confusion on you as you say, all without considerable condition covers like many other classes have. All you have to do is use a single clear to negate all that, or kite for 2-3 seconds while they beg their team to finish you for them. But as you say, no counterplay I guess. 

[arazoth.7290]

19 minutes ago, Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259 said:

Translation: "I rarely complain about balance as long as revenant is overpowered" 

 

 

I mostly play off meta rev builds and still do well, so what are you trying to insinuate here?

[Shagie.7612]

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I did compare them, mathematically.  If you don't oonga boonga buttons confusion does very little compared to torment which will hurt you whether you move or not.  

Right, but you're comparing two conditions which serve vastly different purposes now.

Confusion elicits a specific gameplay action or you suffer (really a lack of action but whatever). You press buttons, you die.
Torment no longer does that, because 99.9% of the time it's simply just a damaging condition for Rev, which lacks the ability to create situations where the gameplay altering effect Torment technically still has matters.

You wouldn't compare Poison and Confusion for the same reason, because while they're both condition effects they exist for different purposes.

did you get wrecked by a condi rev or something lol, solid usage of whataboutism tho

[arazoth.7290]

21 minutes ago, Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259 said:

 2-3 seconds

??? So that's why I keep seeing it applied many times still after 2-3 seconds. They have a burst but also sustained amount that still keeps adding up on the burst too of this too.

It's more then 2-3 seconds if they keep reappllying it enough. If you met ones that hit like a wet noodle afterwards or yourself, they/you did something wrong. 

And 1 cleanse is far from enough on it if I had to use it 3 times in a row for not keeping entire fight letting it stack up to 15-20 stacks on sustained damage

[Gotejjeken.1267]

9 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Right, but you're comparing two conditions which serve vastly different purposes now.

You wouldn't compare Poison and Confusion for the same reason, because while they're both condition effects they exist for different purposes.

Why would you compare poison and confusion? Confusion is a two-part condition (attacking / non-attacking) and so is Torment (moving / non-moving).  

You are disregarding the non-moving part because Rev has limited immobs...but:

13 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

In a team fight if people are on you and while other condis also are ticking and let even in worst case add that you're cc'd.

See, even the other rev main realizes it's a team game and so your teammate could be doing the immobing while Torment (and other condis) do mad damage.

tldr; confusion and torment seem somewhat balanced at the moment--not like either rev or mes has much outside the way of these two right now.  So don't fight each other, band together and duo! 💀

[ThrenodyAria.9847]

Sorry double post

Edited June 2 by ThrenodyAria.9847
Accidental double post

[ThrenodyAria.9847]

Hi there!

I play condi mesmer both in WvW and SPvP. I switch between mirage and virtuoso mostly. For those that aren't sure what it is that's happening for confusion I can try and help explain it. 

On virt, you tend to take traits that increase confusion and add blind/cripple and other condis to your shatter skills. I tend to run staff/scepter+pistol for virt. Typically for the set up I will staff 3 for clones and try and chaos field ( staff 5 )for initial confusion and condi stacks. I of course staff 4 for chaos armor when you hit me for boons and condis. Then I switch. I pistol 5,4, for bleeds and confusion and then scepter 3 which is a channeled skill that then stacks confusion. Then I hit my f2 blade song. If I do all of this correctly and you are sitting there going hit me I'm open.... then I can get 25-30 stacks of confusion plus other condis. I have pretty much one shot people like this. That being said at any point in that set up if I miss, or you block something? Especially the f2 or scepter 3? I'm SOL for the next 13 seconds while my f2 comes back. The dps outside of the combo is pretty low. I have decent survival and some escapes but for mesmer, Virt is on the lower mobility side and lower clone generation than mirage. It is not instant. 

This isn't to defend or deny that it's strong. With the set up and hitting it? It feels good and it hits HARD. But it also isn't instant and it's certainly defendable. That being said, good mesmers will bait out your condi cleanses and blocks and cds. That's true of any class. If you're fighting multiple enemies and feel you can't dodge cleanse all of them etc?   You shouldn't be able to! If you get caught 1v3 or get focused  ( target assist exists for a reason ) and stay to fight or you're a glass cannon.... hate to break it to you but confusion stacks or not you are most likely a goner.

I will have to see how the axe buffs pan out. I like axe, especially axe 3 with the mini teleport but overall scepter with the scepter 2 block and counter and the channel stacking is better imo.

 

 

 

[arazoth.7290]

26 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Why would you compare poison and confusion? Confusion is a two-part condition (attacking / non-attacking) and so is Torment (moving / non-moving).  

You are disregarding the non-moving part because Rev has limited immobs...but:

See, even the other rev main realizes it's a team game and so your teammate could be doing the immobing while Torment (and other condis) do mad damage.

tldr; confusion and torment seem somewhat balanced at the moment--not like either rev or mes has much outside the way of these two right now.  So don't fight each other, band together and duo! 💀

You take a part what I said and take it out of context and ignoring because of that same time what I tried to say a few times. 👌

[arazoth.7290]

18 minutes ago, ThrenodyAria.9847 said:

Hi there!

I play condi mesmer both in WvW and SPvP. I switch between mirage and virtuoso mostly. For those that aren't sure what it is that's happening for confusion I can try and help explain it. 

On virt, you tend to take traits that increase confusion and add blind/cripple and other condis to your shatter skills. I tend to run staff/scepter+pistol for virt. Typically for the set up I will staff 3 for clones and try and chaos field ( staff 5 )for initial confusion and condi stacks. I of course staff 4 for chaos armor when you hit me for boons and condis. Then I switch. I pistol 5,4, for bleeds and confusion and then scepter 3 which is a channeled skill that then stacks confusion. Then I hit my f2 blade song. If I do all of this correctly and you are sitting there going hit me I'm open.... then I can get 25-30 stacks of confusion plus other condis. I have pretty much one shot people like this. That being said at any point in that set up if I miss, or you block something? Especially the f2 or scepter 3? I'm SOL for the next 13 seconds while my f2 comes back. The dps outside of the combo is pretty low. I have decent survival and some escapes but for mesmer, Virt is on the lower mobility side and lower clone generation than mirage. It is not instant. 

This isn't to defend or deny that it's strong. With the set up and hitting it? It feels good and it hits HARD. But it also isn't instant and it's certainly defendable. That being said, good mesmers will bait out your condi cleanses and blocks and cds. That's true of any class. If you're fighting multiple enemies and feel you can't dodge cleanse all of them etc?   You shouldn't be able to! If you get caught 1v3 or get focused  ( target assist exists for a reason ) and stay to fight or you're a glass cannon.... hate to break it to you but confusion stacks or not you are most likely a goner.

I will have to see how the axe buffs pan out. I like axe, especially axe 3 with the mini teleport but overall scepter with the scepter 2 block and counter and the channel stacking is better imo.

 

 

 

In other 1v3's you have atleast some potential to kite out/survive to retreat, talking about not only rev pov here now.

You say you're out of stuff if that's done, but then why have I seen some mesmers still reapply these and few other condis in 5 seconds for sustain passive condi damage.

The sustain confusion damage is okay, it's these high burst combined with this that leads to 4,7k confusion hits like...

Just lower the amount of confusion stacks that these abilties apply to reduce max damage till 2,5k confusion. The rest to compensate for more healthy condition damage they can focus on these other condi damage appliances mike next patch foe example too. 

confusion condi damage should make press abilties less yes, but not complete shutting down to be afraid to even press a condi cleanse because you're about to get a 4,7k damage tick like come on....

And that's because of the way confusion damage works, you can't compare for example either to like torment, it is an entire different effect

[Frequency.6407]

Confusion counters ele and vindi. Balanced tbh.

[arazoth.7290]

28 minutes ago, Frequency.6407 said:

Confusion counters ele and vindi. Balanced tbh.

Not the amount of damage it does currently.

 

If certain power damage abilties are too high for power builds, so can be the same for condi.

And now this is the case in here. This was coming some time ago the way this condi mechanical works once it gets around these numbers.

Any class is affected by this, not only these 2.

I will say it again, confusion damage should only slow the amount of times abilties are pressed to not receive too much damage. But it shouldn't completely shut everything down. Because there for are cc's already in game

[ThrenodyAria.9847]

1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

In other 1v3's you have atleast some potential to kite out/survive to retreat, talking about not only rev pov here now.

You say you're out of stuff if that's done, but then why have I seen some mesmers still reapply these and few other condis in 5 seconds for sustain passive condi damage.

The sustain confusion damage is okay, it's these high burst combined with this that leads to 4,7k confusion hits like...

Just lower the amount of confusion stacks that these abilties apply to reduce max damage till 2,5k confusion. The rest to compensate for more healthy condition damage they can focus on these other condi damage appliances mike next patch foe example too. 

confusion condi damage should make press abilties less yes, but not complete shutting down to be afraid to even press a condi cleanse because you're about to get a 4,7k damage tick like come on....

And that's because of the way confusion damage works, you can't compare for example either to like torment, it is an entire different effect

Because mesmers still have abilities. I don't not attack or use weapon abilities. You're still going to get some condi damage and weapon skill application but the burst and hard stacking you're talking about only comes from the combo set up. Can I apply some conditions and still do damage? Of course. On a revenant once you're done doing a burst combo does that mean you can't use utilities or or weapon skills? Of course not, but by and large your combo and chaining attacks do the most damage. Mesmer isn't any different.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

2 minutes ago, ThrenodyAria.9847 said:

by and large your combo and chaining attacks do the most damage. Mesmer isn't any different.

(except it is)

[arazoth.7290]

29 minutes ago, ThrenodyAria.9847 said:

Because mesmers still have abilities. I don't not attack or use weapon abilities. You're still going to get some condi damage and weapon skill application but the burst and hard stacking you're talking about only comes from the combo set up. Can I apply some conditions and still do damage? Of course. On a revenant once you're done doing a burst combo does that mean you can't use utilities or or weapon skills? Of course not, but by and large your combo and chaining attacks do the most damage. Mesmer isn't any different.

Just saying the sustained damage is still enough in that 13 second window you were talking about.

In general bursts are alright, but it's just how confusion condi damage mechanically works at these extreme high amounts currently. I already said to tune down the amount of these stacks that can be applied to still let it function well but nog complete shutting something down, it shouldn't be that you have to act like a unbreakable cc is applied (doing noting).

For my part like they already doing soon, the other parts that aren't related to this one can be upped for some compensation ofcourse. I am not for breaking something in uselessnes, there should be compensation in a healthy way.

 

 

[Shagie.7612]

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

See, even the other rev main realizes it's a team game and so your teammate could be doing the immobing while Torment (and other condis) do mad damage.

Because a situation in which someone's been condi bombed and then stuck in immobilizes (or immobilized and then bombed and unable to avoid it through dodge or other skills) means they're gonna die regardless of which kind it is, torment ticking 30% harder than normal doesn't make a significant difference in that kind of moment. It's only ~16% more than an equivalent stack of poison or bleed, and less than half of burning. 

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

tldr; confusion and torment seem somewhat balanced at the moment--not like either rev or mes has much outside the way of these two right now. 

I don't think that's very accurate. Torment's stationary damage isn't that scary on any build currently. Any situation in which you landed torment stacks on a stuck target would be just as dangerous if it were any other condition. That's just how large condition bombs work in pvp.
It's a very large part of why the class hasn't had a successful condi build in a long time, because it's like 90% of rev's condi damage.

 

anyways i'm not entirely sure things like legend swap, song of the mists, balance in discord, and whatnot should activate confusion given that the way for the class to handle conditions often involves swapping to use a specific legend skill, but i also kinda hate vindicator and it's the main one to suffer from that, so i also don't care that much

Edited June 2 by Shagie.7612

[Myror.7521]

Actually i struggle more against the more populair daze Spam mes than the confusion one but maybe thats just me ;d

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

Actually i struggle more against the more populair daze Spam mes than the confusion one but maybe thats just me ;d

Atleast stability stacks can work vs that one for counter for some little time

 

[Kitty.4806]

Purple class go brrrr

[Saiyan.1704]

21 hours ago, Eddie.9143 said:

I play herald and vindi more than any other class, and I know that condi mes is a counter for Rev, classes have counters, vindi currently has very few. 

The counter to vindi is to ignore him and farm his teamates instead :)!

"my entire team just died around me" - a vindi main somewhere.