Ranger Spear Description

[Beddo.1907]

18 minutes ago, Bastrii.3047 said:

What Ranger actually needs is a Condi 2h with a Block and Movement potential, so we have parity with Power Greatsword. If Spear has Stealth and Stealth Attacks, it might have a block on its 4 or 5 key. But this is a big "maybe", and the blog never mentioned a block added to our toolkit.

It doesn't have a block.

[Levetty.1279]

Well that was kittening terrible.

WTB absolutely any other spear skillset.

[frazazel.7501]

I joined the stream a few minutes late and I missed it. Is it really terrible?

[Levetty.1279]

4 minutes ago, frazazel.7501 said:

I joined the stream a few minutes late and I missed it. Is it really terrible?

Imagine Greatsword but they removed the block and you have to press 5 before every maul. Utterly pointless weapon.

[Beddo.1907]

1 minute ago, frazazel.7501 said:

I joined the stream a few minutes late and I missed it. Is it really terrible?

It's not flashy like the others, so I guess it's off to the trashcan. /j

Now seriously. It will depend on feel and numbers. Nothing really reinvented the wheel, but to call it bad right away is just doomcalling. (Common for this forum.)

[Beddo.1907]

2 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Imagine Greatsword but they removed the block and you have to press 5 before every maul. Utterly pointless weapon.

You mean like engi having to press 2? Or mesmer having to press 2? Or rev having to press 5? Or necro having to press 2? Or guardian having to press 5 (or another skill in melee range)?

[Levetty.1279]

2 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

It's not flashy like the others, so I guess it's off to the trashcan. /j

Now seriously. It will depend on feel and numbers. Nothing really reinvented the wheel, but to call it bad right away is just doomcalling. (Common for this forum.)

Numbers don't matter because even if it ends up competing with Hammer/Sword in terms of damage it will still be pointless because Hammer/Sword exist.

Feeling is already going to be off because you will just be using 5 to feed into 2. No interesting synergies or combos just a plain melee weapon competing with much better ones.

[Levetty.1279]

1 minute ago, Beddo.1907 said:

You mean like engi having to press 2? Or mesmer having to press 2? Or rev having to press 5? Or necro having to press 2? Or guardian having to press 5 (or another skill in melee range)?

I'm sorry Which Mesmer weapon plays like Mesmer spear?

[Beddo.1907]

7 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

I'm sorry Which Mesmer weapon plays like Mesmer spear?

And how does ranger spear play like greatsword?

[Levetty.1279]

14 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

And how does ranger spear play like greatsword?

Be being a melee 2H weapon with a throw, a leap and a big damage 2 attack.

I also didn't mention how they removed the endurance gain, the Maul synergies from the extra damage buff and 5 reseting maul and the evade. So you are right it isn't like GS, it is like a really kitten GS.

[Beddo.1907]

4 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Be being a melee 2H weapon with a throw, a leap and a big damage 2 attack.

I also didn't mention how they removed the endurance gain, the Maul synergies from the extra damage buff and 5 reseting maul and the evade. So you are right it isn't like GS, it is like a really kitten GS.

It's hybrid not fully melee, 2 being bigger auto is common across most weapons and leap is common for few weapons.

We have evade on spear and we have synergies for damage (which you don't like), debuff condi, stealth and range.

I really can't see enough similarities to compare the two, since they lead to different playstyle.

[BadSanta.6527]

have to say ilove the idea of the wepon and gameplay looks fun but the animation looks bad in my opinon 

[frazazel.7501]

Weapon skill analysis:

1. Autoattack looks like it gives swiftness and cripple in the melee chain (hits 3 targets), but nothing special when thrown. It's melee within 170 range of your target, and the thrown range is 900. I'm a little bit unsure about the Untamed Ambush. It hits an area (in a cone in a big AoE), and spawns spores which pop (and apply poison) after a delay. I don't think there's anything else to it.
2. Compared to greatsword 2, it looks to me like spear 2 will hit faster, in a bigger area, applying 8 stacks of vulnerability for 8s instead of enhancing your pet's next attack. Hitting stealth first doubles the damage, similar to how greatsword 5 lets you cast 2 again. Different takes on a pretty similar attack. 5s cooldown.
3. Spear 3 is a ranged attack projectile finisher that deals similar damage to 2 if the enemy is immobilized, disabled or defiant, and applies some cripple. Hitting stealth first makes it pierce and unblockable,  the hitbox is wider, and guarantees the bonus damage, without requiring immobilized, disabled or defiant. 10s cooldown.
4. Compared to greatsword 3, spear 4's leap looks shorter and slower, but it's ground-targeted, hits a bigger area (radius 240) and includes evasion. It does ~25% more damage than spear 2, and a further 20% more if  the enemy is below 50% health. Using stealth first is a 3 second daze (300 defiance damage). It's a leap finisher. 15s cooldown.
5. The stealth skill has ammo with a 10s recharge, but not sure how much ammo it has. It provides 3s of stealth and 6s of swiftness. Recasting does AoE damage (similar to spear 2 damage) and immobilize, and leaves a crippling net on the ground. Pet gets superspeed for 3s.

PvE Strategy Discussion:

It sounds like the play in damage rotations will be to hit 5 before hitting 2, as suspected, but you won't have enough ammo to boost 2 every time. You might also want to save a charge of 5 for breakbars. 3 and 4 both look like more dps than an unboosted 2. I kinda wish that 4 wasn't a damage skill, so that we could save this skill for movement, evasion or breakbar damage. Empowered 4's daze duration can be boosted via trait, and casting it through a lightning field is going to be a massive single breakbar hit.

Since 4 is a leap finisher, it's also possible to use it in conjunction with smokescale's smoke field to grant additional stealth to enable an extra empowered 2. I don't think this is going to be practical, though, and I think it will probably be a damage loss compared to using a higher dps pet.

I don't think empowered 3 will ever be the move in PvE, since blocking is so uncommon, and besides hitting more targets, it doesn't do much else. Similarly, empowering the 5 skill just uses up more ammo for a short immobilize, and controlling the area with some pulsing cripple. If you're in one of the handful of situations where immobilize is helpful in PvE, you'll want something better than this.

The vulnerability on this thing is going to be providing 8 permanent stacks, up to 16 of half the time. It provides swiftness on you. Not much else of interest as far as boons or conditions go.

Final thoughts:

If this ends up competing with hammer/sword in terms of damage, then this weapon is a win, since it has ranged attacks allowing you to continue to hit the boss while doing mechanics. It seems fine as a new weapon, providing what looks like another alternative for ranger power weapons. But it's far less exciting for a PvE player, compared to other showings. Maybe that 3s stealth is going to be the key to easy winterberry harvesting.

[Kydar Schattendolch.6879]

10 hours ago, frazazel.7501 said:

1. The stealth skill has ammo with a 10s recharge, but not sure how much ammo it has. It provides 3s of stealth and 6s of swiftness. Recasting does AoE damage (similar to spear 2 damage) and immobilize, and leaves a crippling net on the ground. Pet gets superspeed for 3s.

Correct me, if I'm wrong then, but would'nt this first skill be nearly the same as thief's Shadow meld, but with additional effects/boons, a shorter ammo recharge and not not an elite skill?

What a slap in the face then for thieves...

[Beddo.1907]

56 minutes ago, Kydar Schattendolch.6879 said:

Correct me, if I'm wrong then, but would'nt this first skill be nearly the same as thief's Shadow meld, but with additional effects/boons, a shorter ammo recharge and not not an elite skill?

What a slap in the face then for thieves...

Thief has way more stealth synergy, can use Shadow meld with any weapon and can use 2nd charge to extend stealth without coming out of it.

[Trejgon.9367]

3 hours ago, Kydar Schattendolch.6879 said:

Correct me, if I'm wrong then, but would'nt this first skill be nearly the same as thief's Shadow meld, but with additional effects/boons, a shorter ammo recharge and not not an elite skill?

What a slap in the face then for thieves...

didn't shadow meld remove revealed debuff ontop of everything else?

[Beddo.1907]

4 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

didn't shadow meld remove revealed debuff ontop of everything else?

That was removed.

[Trejgon.9367]

2 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

That was removed.

I see, must have missed it, didn't pay much attention to deadeye patch notes last... couple years.

[Levetty.1279]

21 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

It's hybrid not fully melee, 2 being bigger auto is common across most weapons and leap is common for few weapons.

We have evade on spear and we have synergies for damage (which you don't like), debuff condi, stealth and range.

I really can't see enough similarities to compare the two, since they lead to different playstyle.

Well yeah because you feel the need to run damage control for Anet for some reason. Literally everybody else can see this is an utterly pointless weapon that adds nothing new for Ranger.

Edited June 22 by Levetty.1279

[CETheLucid.3964]

It's not damage control, you're just wrong about your assertion that it's melee. It's both. Range and melee. That and the stealth + flip over skills is the gimmick. Ranger's always flirted with stealth and now we have a weapon set that is conducive to it. That's new.

[Beddo.1907]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Well yeah because you feel the need to run damage control for Anet for some reason. Literally everybody else can see this is an utterly pointless weapon that adds nothing new for Ranger.

Ok, what would you change?

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Well yeah because you feel the need to run damage control for Anet for some reason. Literally everybody else can see this is an utterly pointless weapon that adds nothing new for Ranger.

I really don't want to go find it but swear before maces were released you were telling me they were useless and when I posted a vid said it was just bad players in WvW.  

All this time later, we get a mace meta for months and then they inevitably get nerfed but are still heavily used.  

Spear is a weapon with two finishers on it, a self-stealth, a bunch of immob and cripple, also super speed to your pet.  There is no way you can look at this in a competitive standpoint and think it won't compete.  

[Levetty.1279]

7 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Ok, what would you change?

Make it fill a role that other Ranger weapons don't.

Ranged non projectile Aoe, cleaving condi melee or a more offensive boon focused support weapon are the ones I can think of of the top of my head for 2H weapons.

[Beddo.1907]

7 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Make it fill a role that other Ranger weapons don't.

Ranged non projectile Aoe, cleaving condi melee or a more offensive boon focused support weapon are the ones I can think of of the top of my head for 2H weapons.

That's seems to be all we are missing.
Besides making the spear projectile unbreakable and piercing, I doubt we can make range AoE.
However, changing power to condi seems rather easy. It's hybrid, so it can do melee already and we get range too and bleed, poison and torment can fit into what we have right now animation and theme wise.
So, if the condi version was done, would you be satisfied?

[Trejgon.9367]

14 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Well yeah because you feel the need to run damage control for Anet for some reason. Literally everybody else can see this is an utterly pointless weapon that adds nothing new for Ranger.

I'd appreciate if you spoke for yourself, instead of trying to speak for "literally everybody (else)". Looking just at this forums, there are more people than Beddo who likes the design of new ranger spear, whom do not consider it a pointless weapon. It does introduce new playstyle of interweaving ranged and melee attacks without being restricted to the cooldown od weapon swapping.

One does not need to "feel to run damage control for Anet" to be able to observe options this new weapon will provide to the ranger toolkit, and to be looking towards playing around this new weapon.