Necromancer Spear Description

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

This wasn't terrible but at the same time it left me utternly unenthused. This feels too much like a mix of greatsword and swords. I'm not sure what role it's trying to fill and honestly, it just doesn't feel like it will add much of a new playstyle for necro. I still feel like a condi cleave weapon was more needed at the moment. Slapping a single chill on the auto attack, like they did with sword, and pretend it synergizes with Deathly Chill is not enough. The fact that it also has chill on the auto attack like greatsword and sword is very telling too. I remember back in the ye olden days of HoT when they were revealing the greatsword skills and mentioning "Chill is a very powerful condition that we'd avoid putting in an auto attack, but this one is so slow we thought it was worth the payoff". Now we have it on 3 weapons, one of which is a ranged piercing projectile. I genuinely am just bummed that this is so similar to 2 already existing weapons, it's just kinda boring.

[Asum.4960]

44 minutes ago, Vennyhedgie.5369 said:

This wasn't terrible but at the same time it left me utternly unenthused. This feels too much like a mix of greatsword and swords. I'm not sure what role it's trying to fill and honestly, it just doesn't feel like it will add much of a new playstyle for necro. I still feel like a condi cleave weapon was more needed at the moment. Slapping a single chill on the auto attack, like they did with sword, and pretend it synergizes with Deathly Chill is not enough.  I genuinely am just bummed that this is so similar to 2 already existing weapons, it's just kinda boring.

Pretty much this. 

Especially compared to Ele ofc, where you get to play with almost all of the games mechanics in one weapon set, being ranged, AoE, boons - namely even Stability, Projectile destruction, evades, condition cleanses, Combo Fields, Blast Finishers upon Finishers, Barrier, Auras, - just straight up more than I can remember. 

Necromancer weapons are just so kitten boring. While this is probably the most complex one yet, what it does is already covered and then some. It has some cool ideas with comboing and resetting skills (although even that is heavily inspired by Gravedigger), but it's more 2s Chill on 3rd AA, increased damage to low health targets, and then some overrated anti-boon thing, which either pretty much doesn't matter at all in PvE, or get's boon spammed over and to oblivion these days in PvP. Oh, and the obligatory Life-Siphon stuff ofc, which can't Crit and isn't affected by any damage multipliers and therefor scales terribly. 

Worst case, it's yet one more dead power Weapon for Necro, best case, it replaces another one like GS or D/S, leaving those dead on the pile with Axe and co. instead. 

Necro, Power, Melee and out of Shroud is just not a winning combination, in any game mode (bar maybe chasing down a single escaping person after an already won teamfight in PvP or smth - but even that hinges entirely on a single, slow, easily dodgeable projectile which needs los on and to hit the target). The kit just needs way more interesting, interactive and fun things for that - like 1/10th of what Ele got.

Edited Saturday at 11:58 AM by Asum.4960

[StraightPath.3972]

Spear has a very clear purpose (provided a-net does not botch the numbers).

PvE - number 1 power dps weapon, ahead of GS.
PvP - chase and execute weapon, great for roaming and side noding.

And I forsee a lot of builds being created around it.

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

18 minutes ago, StraightPath.3972 said:

Spear has a very clear purpose (provided a-net does not botch the numbers).

PvE - number 1 power dps weapon, ahead of GS.
PvP - chase and execute weapon, great for roaming and side noding.

And I forsee a lot of builds being created around it.

Okay then let me ask you this: Why create a weapon solely to replace existing ones? Why not create a weapon that at least brings a new playstyle?

[Asum.4960]

14 minutes ago, StraightPath.3972 said:

Spear has a very clear purpose (provided a-net does not botch the numbers).

PvE - number 1 power dps weapon, ahead of GS.

Powercreeping the game and making currently used weapons redundant isn't exactly peak design though, is it?

[StraightPath.3972]

24 minutes ago, Vennyhedgie.5369 said:

Okay then let me ask you this: Why create a weapon solely to replace existing ones? Why not create a weapon that at least brings a new playstyle?

I'll answer the real (implied) question you're asking:

Because scepter, pistol, torch, scourge and harb.
If melee condi option gets introduced, current meta dps ranged options would have to take a hit
to keep things fair (melee dps > ranged dps because ranged dps is more consistent and safe).
And that would cause a kitten storm the size of Australia..

Also spear does not replace current weapons, it puts them in their place.
GS is still the king of cleave, with both aoe damage and CC. Not to mention it works great on condi reaper.
Spear takes over 1v1 scenarios, especially vs mobile enemies where GS just drops to the floor.
Also spear will fare better vs boon abusing enemies (more and more bosses on this list), since
GS can corrupt up to 4 boons .. very slowly via immobile pulsing field.
Spear can quickly remove 3 and on top of that deny application of another 3 for a while.

Meanwhile Swords interfere with neither of the two, since they're a ranged pick that trades a huge chunk of dps
for utility and mobility.

23 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Powercreeping the game and making currently used weapons redundant isn't exactly peak design though, is it?

It's not power creep if the roles are different.
GS loves big fights with plenty of targets that rush at you.
Spear loves isolated targets (bosses or singled out enemy players) and chasing them down.

Edited Saturday at 12:33 PM by StraightPath.3972

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

9 minutes ago, StraightPath.3972 said:

I'll answer the real (implied) question you're asking:

Because scepter, pistol, torch, scourge and harb.
If melee condi option gets introduced, current meta dps ranged options would have to take a hit
to keep things fair (melee dps > ranged dps because ranged dps is more consistent and safe).
And that would cause a kitten storm the size of Australia..

This has never been true in GW2 and never will.

[StraightPath.3972]

Assuming your version - another question pops up then:

"What's the value of having a melee condi weapon if it won't overtake ranged options,
and said ranged options provide good AoE skills themselves?". Which is kinda big for cc ragoll-y necro.

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

Mainly cleave and avoiding projectile hate. A lot of necro's condi comes from projectiles (especially pistol and harbinger). The other option is scepter wich... is kind of meh, and we've been playing that for 12 years. Something new to spice things up would be neat. A more pure condi weapon that doesn't rely on gimmicks like condi transfer, which are also just kinda horrible feeling to play with in PvE would be welcome. 

[Magmi.6723]

15 hours ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

Necro has consistently been the second most popular profession in the game since its inception. Interestingly, this popularity was a double-edged sword for Necromancers in the past. MO's team seemed to struggle with the idea of Necro being widely favored while Mesmer remained overlooked.

by what metric?

GW2 Wingman and Efficency both show Mesmer to be pretty high up in terms of play.

[Dadnir.5038]

5 minutes ago, Magmi.6723 said:

by what metric?

GW2 Wingman and Efficency both show Mesmer to be pretty high up in terms of play.

Necromancer have always been 2nd on GW2efficiency. It's just that people tend to be more attracted by the extrem of "light" and "dark" theme. Keep in mind that, since the game have the "free to play" access the majority of the players only sample the game to get a taste.

Wingman on another hand base it's statistics off a small sample of players that feed it and it only matter for the end game content which is only done by a small sample of players (yeah, small x small = tiny).

[XECOR.2814]

4 hours ago, StraightPath.3972 said:

Spear has a very clear purpose (provided a-net does not botch the numbers).

PvE - number 1 power dps weapon, ahead of GS.
PvP - chase and execute weapon, great for roaming and side noding.

And I forsee a lot of builds being created around it.

idk how long u have played necromancer, but there is not a single matchup where it does any better than anything we have. Not even in the chase and execute.
Peopke can see that just by seeing how the animations are played and by reading the skills effects, forget about its numbers.
It is always the people who know just enough who bark the loudest thinking they know all, but its the same as every other person like that, you wont be here to see that you were wrong in time. 
Stop feeding wrong feedback to anet on something you are not on top of. Devs are usually enough oblivious already.

Edited Saturday at 04:40 PM by XECOR.2814

[StraightPath.3972]

2 hours ago, XECOR.2814 said:

idk how long u have played necromancer, but there is not a single matchup where it does any better than anything we have. Not even in the chase and execute.
Peopke can see that just by seeing how the animations are played and by reading the skills effects, forget about its numbers.
It is always the people who know just enough who bark the loudest thinking they know all, but its the same as every other person like that, you wont be here to see that you were wrong in time. 
Stop feeding wrong feedback to anet on something you are not on top of. Devs are usually enough oblivious already.

Well let's see, I've been maining it for around 10 years now (yes, this is an alt account).
And I full know well know the joy of getting dogpiled as a necro since pvp is a game mode i play frequently (got all my lege armors from there).
If anything, it's the warrior forum that has the right to throw these lines at me, not the necro one.

And you sure sound confident (if nothing else), given you haven't even had the chance to try the necro spear out.
As for me, I'll be happily waiting for the beta test to see who swallows their words after. Not saying it won't be me though.
If a-net botch the numbers and make the spear damage too weak that well may be me after all.

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

4 minutes ago, StraightPath.3972 said:

If a-net botch the numbers and make the spear damage too weak that well may be me after all.

 

From the stream, I don't think they did that for PvE. PvP is the real question there, since we know Addle will do zero damage in competitive because it has a daze on it at all.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

3 hours ago, Magmi.6723 said:

by what metric?

I don't know... Having 3 or 4 necros in your sPvP match? Targeting necro after necro when tab-targeting in a zerg fight in WvW?

[Sigmoid.7082]

27 minutes ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

From the stream, I don't think they did that for PvE. PvP is the real question there, since we know Addle will do zero damage in competitive because it has a daze on it at all.

I could see them changing the duration of the daze and immob in competitive modes. 

[Magmi.6723]

29 minutes ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

don't know... Having 3 or 4 necros in your sPvP match? Targeting necro after necro when tab-targeting in a zerg fight in WvW

Yet gw2 efficiency and gw2 wingman both show Mesmer to be well played. 

3 - 4 necros in ur spvp match… I’ve yet to ever see this lol. Necros popular sure. But it ain’t that popular 😂

[Magmi.6723]

3 hours ago, XECOR.2814 said:

dk how long u have played necromancer, but there is not a single matchup where it does any better than anything we have. Not even in the chase and execute

How have you decided this? lol.

Unless I’m missing something here. Necromancers other options don’t have teleports etc etc that this class brings, 

let’s of course ignore the condition it has completely unique to itself while we are here.

for its comparison to greatsword, that will be down to numbers. If it does more damage then greatsword it will simply do it better then anything we have. 

im ngl, it simply just sounds like your salty regarding the role it fills, it doesn’t need to be unique in its additions to be a better option to what exists. 

ignore numbers on a DPs weapon, interesting take. 

it has higher mobility baked into it then necros alternatives. It has a unique condition only applicable by the spear. It also has CD resets which simply allow the necromancer to execute more times. 

to try and say it does nothing current necro weapons can’t do, is abit weird. 

Edited Saturday at 08:17 PM by Magmi.6723

[Magmi.6723]

1 hour ago, StraightPath.3972 said:

As for me, I'll be happily waiting for the beta test to see who swallows their words after. Not saying it won't be me though

Unfortunately it’s forum rule 101 in mmorpgs, never say anything positive about anything new coming, everyone loves to play it out as if they’re getting the short straw 🙂 

it could be good, it could be bad, it will primarily come down to balancing. 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Power-wise, it looks like skill 5 will likely need some tweaks with its unique debuff, but spear looks on par with what we've got in damage. Just fills the gap of burst in our weapon kit.

However, I cannot deny there are a couple parts that don't look great.  Namely the copy-paste nature of the auto and the low overall life force gains on the weapon. Now, the latter might be intended design.  It doesn't look like we're really supposed to sit on spear, just use it for its burst and swap out.  The auto being what we already have on two other weapons though just seems lazy.

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

Honestly the more I think about it the less excited I am for it. Axe already has an execute playstyle. Greatsword already has an execute playstyle.  Idk this just seems like retreading the same ground a third time.

[StraightPath.3972]

Polar opposite of me then. The more I think about it, the more excited I get and ideas pop into my head.
But to sum it up real short on my end - from where I stand spear's design is solid, the only make or break being the numbers.
Both dps and healing from shards need to have proper values to matter, and encourage build craft.
Still it's far easier to adjust the numbers if they are off, than a bad weapon design and I'm totally not talking warrior spear... maybe.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

6 minutes ago, StraightPath.3972 said:

Polar opposite of me then. The more I think about it, the more excited I get and ideas pop into my head.
But to sum it up real short on my end - from where I stand spear's design is solid, the only make or break being the numbers.
Both dps and healing from shards need to have proper values to matter, and encourage build craft.
Still it's far easier to adjust the numbers if they are off, than a bad weapon design and I'm totally not talking warrior spear... maybe.

Yeah, overall design seems solid.  Just wish they had put in a bit more effort on the auto to not be a copy-paste of our existing power weapons.  Maybe a bit more vulnerability for our burst weapon to do its job.

Honestly, Warrior spear seems like a good design too, it's just nowhere near as flashy or interesting as the other classes got.  Still should be plenty effective.

[draxynnic.3719]

18 hours ago, StraightPath.3972 said:

I'll answer the real (implied) question you're asking:

Because scepter, pistol, torch, scourge and harb.
If melee condi option gets introduced, current meta dps ranged options would have to take a hit
to keep things fair (melee dps > ranged dps because ranged dps is more consistent and safe).
And that would cause a kitten storm the size of Australia..

It might be the catstorm we have to have. There's building pressure to nerf cvirt, and if that happens, condiscourge will probably rise up to replace it since it has similar strengths, it's just a little more APM-intensive, has a slightly lower benchmark, and the utility toolbox isn't quite as good as mesmer's. At some stage, a melee condi weapon might be needed to prevent condi scourge from being wiped out as a DPS option.

[XECOR.2814]

16 hours ago, StraightPath.3972 said:

Well let's see, I've been maining it for around 10 years now (yes, this is an alt account).
And I full know well know the joy of getting dogpiled as a necro since pvp is a game mode i play frequently (got all my lege armors from there).
If anything, it's the warrior forum that has the right to throw these lines at me, not the necro one.

And you sure sound confident (if nothing else), given you haven't even had the chance to try the necro spear out.
As for me, I'll be happily waiting for the beta test to see who swallows their words after. Not saying it won't be me though.
If a-net botch the numbers and make the spear damage too weak that well may be me after all.

 

forget about numbers. it will be super weak if it goes into beta like this.
Again you are thinking it would be able to fulfill the chasing and execute role, but im telling you it wont.
Chasing requires no target leaps or ports followed by a binding ability like immob, chill, slow, stun either on the same skill or on a skill thats low cast time and reliable to hit.
Also to chase u are using a projectile that has its own travel speed which gets negated by someone running with superspeed or using movement abilities which people who are running do.
Also if you manage to port u are not doing any blind or cover condi to pressure enemy, you are just a blob of matter being present theree waiting to be cc'ed or dpsed down.
This is not any other class, this is necromancer. You dont have stab, aegis, resistance to push through dps by porting in. You need cover condies. to do anything

Edited Sunday at 11:20 AM by XECOR.2814