What should I have done in this situation?

[Quab.4106]

Hello! This is Quab, the one and only!

One of my recent random ranked PvP put my dear deadeye into a weird match up and I seriously got no clue at all what to do so we lost madly. Let me explain:

My DE was full crit chance and power damage, stealth and dodge defense; other than that, epic fragile with no defense and limited cooldowns (typical shadow-step). And the matchmaking put it against two daredevils, one was condition damage, and two mirages, one was condition damage as well. The 5th enemy was a berserker. Coliseum arena.

Before the first minute of match time one of the DD ambushed me while I was capturing home, I was expecting it so I survived, but knew it was impossible for me to try to either kill him or go back to my team while he was chasing me, so I took over 30 seconds struggling to get rid of him before he gave up and capture my home node. Meanwhile my team was fighting in mid, but at the time I reached mid my teammates were dead and the enemy had both home and far. I decide to go far in an attempt to do something useful, but in the way I'm assaulted by a mirage which I manage to dodge but by then the whole enemy team knew where I was and they simply tracked me down and killed me.

I decide not to get alone so I can avoid getting ganked by DD who can insta-kill me in a moment of distraction. But as soon as the enemy team sees me I get instantly dragged and dealt enough damage to die or with enough conditions to do so in a few seconds, so my participation in the teamfight is a bare flash and force a couple damage skills over me. The entire match I was subjugated by DD who could kill me if they land 2 skills on me and/or mirages I was unable to keep my aim in, both of them having more stealth than me, more mobility than me (including positioning chaos like illusions or long duration stealth between attacks) and less damage than me but I'm unable to fight back unless I catch 'em fighting someone else or in a bad situation, (I even mention that sore moment where I'm attacking the berserker but I'm getting the "out of range" warning, so I move on away from him but then he sees me and switches to rifle and kills me in one shot. I don't know, ask Arena.net). So it's like minute 11 (4 minutes since match started) and I'm never AFK in a match but I'm giving up thinking I bet a rock, paper, scissors round and I lost.

I've never seen 3 thieves in the same match, less being 2 daredevils vs 1 deadeye, not to mention the mirages who render my mark useless. ...And I could attack the tank...?

Usually I'm a support damage that shoots down enemies at low health and messes with the nodes when no one's looking, but in this match I couldn't do any of those, mechanically I had two assassins awaiting for me to pop up to instantly kill me (literally two heart-stab attacks or a few stacks of conditions), while the other enemies where mirages who could keep me unable to hit the non-illusion for the entire match.

So now I am recurring to GW2 PvP community wisdom: what were my options? What should I had done that I didn't realize?

(Sorry for making this long)

[Sahne.6950]

You encountered the fact that D/P  eats Deadeyes for breakfast.  

What you should have done: swap to D/P to be on level ground.   But only if you are confident in winning the mirrormatch.

[Mne Malo Tebya.2965]

Make a new forum post and ask for DE buffs. This class is so weak it needs them!

[Kuya.6495]

I guess swap when you run into daredevils? What's a good build that hard counters daredevil? I'm not familiar with what thieves hate other than that core thief and daredevils farm deadeyes.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 6/11/2024 at 3:08 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

You encountered the fact that D/P  eats Deadeyes for breakfast.  

Wonder why that is.

Oh yeah, blind.

I maintain these forums do not struggle with DE, and DE is only good in a duo.  Stealth on dodge doesn't change that--a SoloQ DE is going to have a rough time over DD.  

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

*whistling nonchalantly*

On 6/10/2024 at 6:48 PM, Quab.4106 said:

So now I am recurring to GW2 PvP community wisdom: what were my options? What should I had done that I didn't realize?

(Sorry for making this long)

You learned two things within the first minute:

>your team gets wiped at skimishes that don't involve the thief

>you're countered by the enemy thief, but can waste their time

You should have leaned in hard to helping your team wipe any skirmishes. Abandon far for now, regroup at home, call target on people you want off the board and force the dd to come deal with you.

When you have momentum, you can decap.

Edited June 12 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You should have leaned in hard to helping your team wipe any skirmishes. Abandon far for now, regroup at home, call target on people you want off the board and force the dd to come deal with you.

When you have momentum, you can decap.

Good advice, but for my money at best (and I mean no mistakes made) leads to a 450-500 loss since the DD was bullying OP from the gun. 

I've had enough 450-480 to 500 losses recently and most of them were 'throws' where we were winning then the team spazzes out--if getting bullied it's even less likely to eke out a win unless OP can outskill at least one of the other two thieves.  

My guess is enemy team would just keep nodes perma contested (esp. with two mirages), have the zerker burst people down and the DDs would be around to stall/bully OP if they tried decap. 

As opps had two thieves and somehow won, this tells me either OPs comp was fubar'd (i.e. like three necros + a mech + them or something) or there was a big skill difference.  

Edited June 12 by Gotejjeken.1267

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

On 6/11/2024 at 2:08 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

You encountered the fact that D/P  eats Deadeyes for breakfast.  

What you should have done: swap to D/P to be on level ground.   But only if you are confident in winning the mirrormatch.

I disagree. You just outstealth the DD and win via attrition. It's a pretty one sided match IMO. 

[ShadowLurker.8713]

This is why I almost never cap home at the start of the match anymore as a DE. Better to pick off people at mid and help rally your downed teammates by finishing enemy downs, unless mid is totally lost so then you quickly stealth up, abandon mid and go for the far decap, and maybe cap it fully if no one chases, or if mid looks winnable again then hurry back and attempt to do the same as before. Number one priority is to not die as always.

But take this with a grain of salt, maybe others have better strategy.

Yes. DP Thief is the counter to DE depending on how good they are.

[Sahne.6950]

5 hours ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

I disagree. You just outstealth the DD and win via attrition. It's a pretty one sided match IMO. 

Think so?

You literally play it super slow.... ignore all his stealthing shenanigans.   DONT PANIC!  There is no "outstealthing" he can do... theres no such thing in this matchup.

Just stand there..... and the second he pops up, you dodge,  hit tap and then 3.  He can either dodge this... and waste his stealth, cuz he still has revealed on him... Or you will hit him for 4k+ and blind his attack.       Depending how he got his initial stealth, he either now has 1 or 0 dodges left.....   From now on you have to be super aggressive.  

At this point hes sitting at like 11kish hitpoints and will die to your next  HS->Steal->BS combo.  So look for the opening! Easiest way to get the combo off is during his lengthy casttime of the Stealthattack.  So you mentally prepare yourself for him to open... lay a BP on your feet..... and the second you see the Beam starting,  you go  : HS -> steal -> BS.     Steal will interrup the Stealthattack(if you have good reflexes, that is), and you yet again got a free hit on him, or force him to blow his last dodge.  IF he doesnt dodge, or doesnt have one left... and the BS hits... hes dead.

if it fails, you rinse and repeat. And thats the matchup done....

 

A good DE will just outright avoid any DD because of this.     DE is stronger in a Conquest setting, simply because of the way they apply their dmg... but when it comes to 1v1, the DD should always win, unless HEAVILY outskilled.

Edited June 13 by Sahne.6950

[StefanB.4928]

On 6/11/2024 at 12:48 AM, Quab.4106 said:

while I was capturing home

You shouldnt be capturing home as DE (or any thief spec). Youre not build to hold nodes vs invaders. 

Decent players will instantly spot it and push for your home.