Damage is too high in spvp (unfun)

[Shagie.7612]

19 minutes ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

So you're advocating for everything to be more glass to fix the burst problem?

Damage has gone up relatively proportionally to the increase in survivability, because bunker metas are even worse than what we have currently. It's not fun at all when nothing can die. It's been an arms race caused by the increase in hand holding and reduction in ability to punish people for their misplays, all of which started when they lost control of powercreep in the form of avoidance/mitigation/survivability.

That stuff's happened because players have been asking for the things you're asking for. People who are inexperienced and making mistakes die, and that upsets them, because losing sucks, and acknowledging your own screw ups goes against basic human psychology.

If you're not taking advantage of the boons or other forms of avoidance your class has, or you happen to be stuck on something currently underpowered, you're gonna get asploded. Which sucks, and I wish Anet was actually willing to make large scale changes to the underperfomers, and they definitely deserve more flack for that, but it's been that way for a long time now.

The thing I play for 99% of my games has some of the worst survivability and mitigation in the game. I don't typically feel like there's a burst problem, or that I'm dying instantly. The only times I get blown up are when I'm put in a situation where I just don't have access to things that an actual decent build would have, and even then it's not THAT fast, it's just an obvious, inevitable, unavoidable death coming down the pipeline.

e: I will say that, yes, if they were to actually address some of the above things on a significant scale, damage probably would end up having to come down, but I don't think burst, or even overall damage, is the current largest problem PvP's suffering from, and reducing it across the board without doing anything else would be a terrible approach.

Edited June 12 by Shagie.7612

[Lazer Candy.2837]

26 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Damage has gone up relatively proportionally to the increase in survivability, because bunker metas are even worse than what we have currently. It's not fun at all when nothing can die. It's been an arms race caused by the increase in hand holding and reduction in ability to punish people for their misplays, all of which started when they lost control of powercreep in the form of avoidance/mitigation/survivability.

That stuff's happened because players have been asking for the things you're asking for. People who are inexperienced and making mistakes die, and that upsets them, because losing sucks, and acknowledging your own screw ups goes against basic human psychology.

If you're not taking advantage of the boons or other forms of avoidance your class has, or you happen to be stuck on something currently underpowered, you're gonna get asploded. Which sucks, and I wish Anet was actually willing to make large scale changes to the underperfomers, and they definitely deserve more flack for that, but it's been that way for a long time now.

The thing I play for 99% of my games has some of the worst survivability and mitigation in the game. I don't typically feel like there's a burst problem, or that I'm dying instantly. The only times I get blown up are when I'm put in a situation where I just don't have access to things that an actual decent build would have, and even then it's not THAT fast, it's just an obvious, inevitable, unavoidable death coming down the pipeline.

e: I will say that, yes, if they were to actually address some of the above things on a significant scale, damage probably would end up having to come down, but I don't think burst, or even overall damage, is the current largest problem PvP's suffering from, and reducing it across the board without doing anything else would be a terrible approach.

Again, however you want to slice it, you're advocating for damage to be brought down. You're saying if you strip survivability from boons, people won't build as glass, which brings dmg down. Fine, I'm game; let's do it. However you wanna bring it down 15-20% I'm game. Then, If the super top tier players maintain the glass and can survive good for them. 

[Shagie.7612]

25 minutes ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

Again, however you want to slice it, you're advocating for damage to be brought down. You're saying if you strip survivability from boons, people won't build as glass, which brings dmg down. Fine, I'm game; let's do it. However you wanna bring it down 15-20% I'm game. Then, If the super top tier players maintain the glass and can survive good for them. 

Okay, I've been nice, but clearly you've already convinced yourself you're correct even though you're very clearly an inexperienced player.
This is like some guy getting mad about getting blown up in a fighting game because he won't hold downback.

2.1k in 2s and RBGs is a joke and has been for over a decade, you're not as good as you think you are at this game, at WoW, or probably at games in general, damage is mostly fine, and if you're getting consistently bursted as hard as you make it out to be, you're screwing up dramatically and need to rethink your gameplay and/or what you're playing.

Nerfing damage across the board is a terrible suggestion and you don't know what you're talking about. Sorry but that's the way it is.
The game mode not drawing new blood has very little to do with the PvP meta and whether or not damage is too high, there's far more important factors like the ones already mentioned here by myself and the others.

Edited June 12 by Shagie.7612

[StefanB.4928]

45 minutes ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

Again, however you want to slice it, you're advocating for damage to be brought down. You're saying if you strip survivability from boons, people won't build as glass, which brings dmg down. Fine, I'm game; let's do it. However you wanna bring it down 15-20% I'm game. Then, If the super top tier players maintain the glass and can survive good for them. 

Thats not what hes saying. Hes saying he is playing an off meta build that needs some buffs to compete with the really good builds.  He is saying off meta builds need help. 

The issue is that youre comparing wow with GW2. 

GW2 is a twitch based reaction game where you read the opponents abbilities and base your actions on that, at that very moment.  You dodge, block, kite or use specicfic boons to counter play.  Wow is a CD management game where you try to combine your teammates CDs in to "goes", a string of CCs and interupts while using your offensive CDs.  Meanwhile you try to avoid or interupt goes made by the opponent.

Imagine if a new player that never played wow played against Whaaz and Chan in 3v3.  Imagine if that player would run to the forum and claim CC/interupt chains are too long and damage is 50% to high based on that game.  It wouldnt make sense since that new player lacks the knowledge to give a well informed statement about said topics. 

Long story short, your issue is with MMR and trying to avoid blaming anything but yourself.  You need to learn to play GW2 like GW2 and not like wow.  The sooner you simply accept that you suck and need to fix your gameplay, the faster youll be somewhat decent at the game. 

Prove us that were wrong: record a game or two and show us. 

Edited June 12 by StefanB.4928

[GuriGashi.5617]

100% a learn to play issue

[Saiyan.1704]

On 6/10/2024 at 11:36 PM, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

Hi everyone! 
I want to start by saying I'm a 2.1k player in WoW 2v2 and RBGs to add some credit to my opinion; that is, I'm not a newb when it comes to pvp in general. 

....why do people list their WoW credentials prior to sharing their wrong opinions in GW2 PvP?

If you think damage needs to be turned down because you got melted by a Willbender player, then you're doing it wrong. I've mained WB since release... a bunker meta (literally what will happen if you increase time-to-kill) is not what we need. I think you just need to position yourself better or better yet, get off of Zerkers amulet if you can't survive a WB burst.

Edited June 12 by Saiyan.1704

[Sahne.6950]

8 hours ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

This is a pretty toxic reply. I added that to show I'm not a newb to pvp because we all know as soon as someone makes a suggestion people reply with, " lol omg newb I bet you've never pvp'd in your life noob git gud!!" So for some context, I am a skilled pvper in some regard. I've pvped in various games for the better part of my life and here's my opinion. Your comment is pretty much the other end of the spectrum. If someone makes a suggestion and adds in some context, you get this reply. If you'd like to be constructive, please, I'm all eyes (and ears). Otherwise, don't be toxic.

wooowoww!

no intention of being toxic buddy. 😃

I very much agree with your Thread.  You hit the nail on the head.

Was just adding a little "funny" ontop, cuz i thought the " i am X and Y in Z game" was kinda funny. 

Sry if that caught you on the wrong foot.

[Kuya.6495]

I think the hardest players to teach how to play GW2 are WoW players. No matter how many times you try to explain things to them, they are CONVINCED that something is wrong here if their WoW skills don't translate into GW2 skills.

Like for example, my guy the OP is getting clowned by willbenders, a build that is nowhere near meta, not even a meme dragonhunter build for killing silver players, and despite all of us telling him it's a learn to play issue he's convinced we're all wrong. 🤷

OP, how about you instead ask for advice with how to fight willbenders instead of asking for a blanket overhaul to the game?

Edited June 12 by Kuya.6495

[Saiyan.1704]

1 hour ago, Kuya.6495 said:

how about you instead ask for advice with how to fight willbenders instead of asking for a blanket overhaul to the game?

Don't you know who this prestigious man is? Dont let that... 16 hour old.. newly-made account fool you..!

He has played throughout the years, reached the high Rank of Silver3, and has competed in the Monthy AT beaten people in The Pit by just afking and letting his pet do the work. He absolutely KNOWS the meta build because he himself is a meta man. The mmorpg community goes to him for insight. He makes meta blogs about MMO's that havent even been released yet.

He is the most interesting nerd in the world 🍺 

[Supernova Starr.2069]

On 6/11/2024 at 12:36 AM, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

I'm not a newb when it comes to pvp in general.

On 6/11/2024 at 12:36 AM, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

Burst damage is so high you can die within a second (lookin at you willbenders)

That's a wrap.

Edited June 12 by Supernova Starr.2069

[Supernova Starr.2069]

On 6/11/2024 at 4:22 AM, lotus.5672 said:

idk what game you are playing but every match im in theres at least 2 condi reapers on each team

This meta certainly is better than having 3 condi reapers each team (2023)

[Lazer Candy.2837]

On 6/12/2024 at 1:22 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

wooowoww!

no intention of being toxic buddy. 😃

I very much agree with your Thread.  You hit the nail on the head.

Was just adding a little "funny" ontop, cuz i thought the " i am X and Y in Z game" was kinda funny. 

Sry if that caught you on the wrong foot.

Ah, you're just the one I chose to reply to. Sorry I misunderstood. If you read some of the other posts, there are many people attacking me for listing some min pvp credentials. Thanks for clarifying!

[Lazer Candy.2837]

On 6/12/2024 at 5:55 AM, Saiyan.1704 said:

Don't you know who this prestigious man is? Dont let that... 16 hour old.. newly-made account fool you..!

He has played throughout the years, reached the high Rank of Silver3, and has competed in the Monthy AT beaten people in The Pit by just afking and letting his pet do the work. He absolutely KNOWS the meta build because he himself is a meta man. The mmorpg community goes to him for insight. He makes meta blogs about MMO's that havent even been released yet.

He is the most interesting nerd in the world 🍺 

I think many of you are misunderstanding my view point. I'm not a newb to pvp in general. I don't claim to be the best and I certainly don't claim to know all of gw2 pvp ins and outs. I'm saying that as a low gold player I find this extremely unfun to play as someone who loves pvp. And in response y'all just keep saying the same stuff about how you have to be the number 1 pvper ever in existence of gw2 to comment on the way the game feels to play. 

 

Second, my account was created at launch. I've just never posted on these forums before, but reddit instructed me to share here so devs would see it. Y'all need to take a chill pill.
 

[Lazer Candy.2837]

On 6/12/2024 at 4:41 AM, Kuya.6495 said:

I think the hardest players to teach how to play GW2 are WoW players. No matter how many times you try to explain things to them, they are CONVINCED that something is wrong here if their WoW skills don't translate into GW2 skills.

Like for example, my guy the OP is getting clowned by willbenders, a build that is nowhere near meta, not even a meme dragonhunter build for killing silver players, and despite all of us telling him it's a learn to play issue he's convinced we're all wrong. 🤷

OP, how about you instead ask for advice with how to fight willbenders instead of asking for a blanket overhaul to the game?

I get that, but the point is there isn't anything IN the game that indicates what I've done wrong when I'm dead in 2 seconds. As a "low skilled gw2 spvper" it's pretty unfun to try to enter as the floor is really high and the ceiling is even higher. There's not enough time to dissect what happened or learn from the mistake when I'm dead in 2 seconds from some teleporting, spinning WB that has me rooted in place. And the combat logs aren't that helpful either.

 

It's clear though from these forum posters that what remains of the spvp community are folks who are proponents of this type of gameplay because all the others have left. And to that I say good luck, I'll see myself out with 90% of other new gw2 spvp players.

[Kuya.6495]

13 minutes ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

I get that, but the point is there isn't anything IN the game that indicates what I've done wrong when I'm dead in 2 seconds. As a "low skilled gw2 spvper" it's pretty unfun to try to enter as the floor is really high and the ceiling is even higher. There's not enough time to dissect what happened or learn from the mistake when I'm dead in 2 seconds from some teleporting, spinning WB that has me rooted in place. And the combat logs aren't that helpful either.

 

It's clear though from these forum posters that what remains of the spvp community are folks who are proponents of this type of gameplay because all the others have left. And to that I say good luck, I'll see myself out with 90% of other new gw2 spvp players.

I think your complaint is less about damage and more about tells and no detailed death recap or death rewind to teach you how you died and what could have been done differently.  Everyone is in agreement that gw2 is bad with telegraphing moves due to particle effect bloat and that the window that says what did the most damage to you when you die is unhelpful. 

[Flowki.7194]

I stopped playing glass ele around 1 year ago, from around that point, a number of specs could basically face tank 30k burst, so I seen no point playing on. On the one hand I kinde understand why the game shifted into being less punishing for mistakes, I use to gank less skilled players with just 1 updraft. Better players it took more than that, but if they made mistakes they died. The balance around then felt more skill based, although very punishing for newer players.

 

The issue now, is that dmg is still decently high on specs like virt, DH, WB, Druid, Untamed, SPB.. but they are very crept in defense/cc/mobility. That has basically alienated a lot of power builds that have similar or more damage, but lack the face tank/block-immune spam (herald for example). Furthermore, those more sustain crept power builds also tend to have decent condi cleanse, so they also oppress condi builds that cannot confusion/condi bomb. Then ofc are specs like DE which are just horendous game design, you can't kill the druid/virt in any decent time frame in a group fight, yet you can't kill the DE coz DE. It is no suprise games are now full of specs that are like DE low risk, or like virt easy sustain, while both itterations do good dmg. Playing anything inbetween those, you will die for mistakes that they won't, and fast. Since most people are playing the slew of low risk or block-invuln-barrier-daze spam, then it is no suprise most people would suggest damage isn't that high. Jump on any spec like herald for a reality check.

Edited June 13 by Flowki.7194

[Lazer Candy.2837]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I stopped playing glass ele around 1 year ago, from around that point, a number of specs could basically face tank 30k burst, so I seen no point playing on. On the one hand I kinde understand why the game shifted into being less punishing for mistakes, I use to gank less skilled players with just 1 updraft. Better players it took more than that, but if they made mistakes they died. The balance around then felt more skill based, although very punishing for newer players.

 

The issue now, is that dmg is still decently high on specs like virt, DH, WB, Druid, Untamed, SPB.. but they are very crept in defense/cc/mobility. That has basically alienated a lot of power builds that have similar or more damage, but lack the face tank/block-immune spam (herald for example). Furthermore, those more sustain crept power builds also tend to have decent condi cleanse, so they also oppress condi builds that cannot confusion/condi bomb. Then ofc are specs like DE which are just horendous game design, you can't kill the druid/virt in any decent time frame in a group fight, yet you can't kill the DE coz DE. It is no suprise games are now full of specs that are like DE low risk, or like virt easy sustain, while both itterations do good dmg. Playing anything inbetween those, you will die for mistakes that they won't, and fast. Since most people are playing the slew of low risk or block-invuln-barrier-daze spam, then it is no suprise most people would suggest damage isn't that high. Jump on any spec like herald for a reality check.

Thank you, this post was well written and made a lot of sense. I think someone else was trying to get at this point earlier as well. But if you take away the defense creep, then they won't build as glass and that will bring dmg down, right?

[Flowki.7194]

30 minutes ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

Thank you, this post was well written and made a lot of sense. I think someone else was trying to get at this point earlier as well. But if you take away the defense creep, then they won't build as glass and that will bring dmg down, right?

The defense does not really have a lot to do with the damage, they two things are mostly seperate in weapon and trait line choices. In the past, their was a more clear distinction, you had good tank and lower damage/mobility, or more damage/mobility and lower tank. There were amulet changes, all class weapons, new weapons, nerfs to older meta builds which allowed easier sustain builds to come into play, and changes to things like DH block mechanics etc. Through the combination of those things, a hand full of specs are now "basically" aproaching celestial status, running dps amulets with sustain traitlines and/or a mix of weapons that partiallly or fully eliminate "traditional" gaps in sustain or mobility. Many builds are still forced to make a dmg/defense/mobility compromise, and cannot really compete with that. SPB is probably the best example of it all, it is not that difficult to pick up and play, and is average or above in dps/sustain/mobility/cc. Mace druid and virt are similar to SPB, while things like DH are just a jacked up virsion of scourge, huge dmg/area denial while spewing out "what is dodge" blocks, which is free sustain for minimal effort, while pumping out unblockables.

Edited June 13 by Flowki.7194

[arazoth.7290]

3 hours ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

I get that, but the point is there isn't anything IN the game that indicates what I've done wrong when I'm dead in 2 seconds. As a "low skilled gw2 spvper" it's pretty unfun to try to enter as the floor is really high and the ceiling is even higher. There's not enough time to dissect what happened or learn from the mistake when I'm dead in 2 seconds from some teleporting, spinning WB that has me rooted in place. And the combat logs aren't that helpful either.

 

It's clear though from these forum posters that what remains of the spvp community are folks who are proponents of this type of gameplay because all the others have left. And to that I say good luck, I'll see myself out with 90% of other new gw2 spvp players.

What class you play against them?

[StefanB.4928]

8 hours ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

I get that, but the point is there isn't anything IN the game that indicates what I've done wrong when I'm dead in 2 seconds. As a "low skilled gw2 spvper" it's pretty unfun to try to enter as the floor is really high and the ceiling is even higher. There's not enough time to dissect what happened or learn from the mistake when I'm dead in 2 seconds from some teleporting, spinning WB that has me rooted in place. And the combat logs aren't that helpful either.

 

It's clear though from these forum posters that what remains of the spvp community are folks who are proponents of this type of gameplay because all the others have left. And to that I say good luck, I'll see myself out with 90% of other new gw2 spvp players.

There are a few things to dissect here:

- MMR Imagine if a top GW2 player would try WoW arena for the first time. What would happen if he would face Whaaz or whatever top team? His team would die within 20 seconds.  What is the issue if that would happen? Thats right; matchmaking. 

After each season each player gets a soft reset MMR wise. Literally everyone will be placed with almost everyone. At times i add ppl to my friends list to check where they end up at at the end of the season. I have some from this season who are 1700+ eu while others are 700-900 rated. 

AND new players will start their placement games off with a relatively high MMR which is believe is around 1500.  1500 in this game allready means you are in the top 200.  The starting point of new players should be around 1000 or even lower. Thats the thing that need to be fixed. 

- Blaming. You started of with blaming the game. "the game is broken and damage needs to be fixed". Next time try to turn it around and share your experiences followed up with "how can i fix this?" or "what am i doing wrong?".

You tried a pvp mode of a game thats been around for 12 years for the first time. What did you expect? There is a learning curve and you can reach plat + even as new player within 1 -2 seasons. You need to be willing to learn tho and not blame all the hickups on balance.  Record your game and ask for feedback. 

  

 

 

 

Edited June 14 by StefanB.4928

[Lazer Candy.2837]

12 hours ago, StefanB.4928 said:

There are a few things to dissect here:

- MMR Imagine if a top GW2 player would try WoW arena for the first time. What would happen if he would face Whaaz or whatever top team? His team would die within 20 seconds.  What is the issue if that would happen? Thats right; matchmaking. 

After each season each player gets a soft reset MMR wise. Literally everyone will be placed with almost everyone. At times i add ppl to my friends list to check where they end up at at the end of the season. I have some from this season who are 1700+ eu while others are 700-900 rated. 

AND new players will start their placement games off with a relatively high MMR which is believe is around 1500.  1500 in this game allready means you are in the top 200.  The starting point of new players should be around 1000 or even lower. Thats the thing that need to be fixed. 

- Blaming. You started of with blaming the game. "the game is broken and damage needs to be fixed". Next time try to turn it around and share your experiences followed up with "how can i fix this?" or "what am i doing wrong?".

You tried a pvp mode of a game thats been around for 12 years for the first time. What did you expect? There is a learning curve and you can reach plat + even as new player within 1 -2 seasons. You need to be willing to learn tho and not blame all the hickups on balance.  Record your game and ask for feedback. 

  

 

1) Not my first time. I've played the game on and off for 12 years. I was plat at one point in this game. 
2) The feedback you get in game is abysmal. There's very little you can do to say, "how can I do better" other than have better reflexes. Ok, cool I'm 34 better reflexes ain't happening.

3) The damage is too high.

4) Matchmaking is def also to blame as I've had to fight multiple people who are in the top 20 players now as a 1200cr player. But also the top players are to blame because they're on alts in some of these incidents. Smurfing chokes the life out of comp pvp.

Edited June 14 by Lazer Candy.2837
formatting

[Lazer Candy.2837]

17 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

What class you play against them?

Been playing Tempest support with a friend of mine. Before that vindicator, though I think I've improved quite a bit since I was playing vindi this season. Vindi burst is also insanely high, but it seems less people play them because they have less defensives compared to WB.

[Kuya.6495]

1 hour ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

Vindi burst is also insanely high, but it seems less people play them because they have less defensives compared to WB.

Omg

Edited June 14 by Kuya.6495

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

Been playing Tempest support with a friend of mine. Before that vindicator, though I think I've improved quite a bit since I was playing vindi this season. Vindi burst is also insanely high, but it seems less people play them because they have less defensives compared to WB.

hmmm you can go pretty tanky still with it I think 

[Ferus.3165]

7 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Omg

i had to laugh too 😄