Spiders Lair Meta

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, it should not. There's place for slightly harder events in ow too and that's what it is. It doesn't involve any extraordinary mechanics or dps, players pug it normally without organizing your proclaimed "50 player raid squads

If that was the case I wouldn't have responded to this thread. I am not the only one complaining.  

 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

But that's not what's happening, you're the one who wants the game to disproportionaly cater to you and the moment 1 slightly harder meta event appears, you're announcing it has no place in ow.

That's exactly what's happening. A disportionate number of maps and metas have had harder content in recent expansions. Not only this but the try hards have been given above and beyond places to vet themselves without bothering the rest of us like HT cm and Cerus cm. 

 

I've previously stated that I'm not entirely against content like this but I do think it's overkill. There needs to be places in the game where I don't have to worry about what other people are doing and I can just enjoy their presence.

Edited August 15 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

38 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

If that was the case I wouldn't have responded to this thread. I am not the only one complaining.  

Never said you're the only one complaining about it, so not sure how is this answering to what I said. There are people complaining about story instances and they try claiming it's not made for solo players -literally, there was a thread like that recently. But it's not about the existence of the complaint as much as it is about its validity. You're free to dislike stuff, but that doesn't mean everything needs to be made to cater to your specific opinion, likes and dislikes -the same way someone liking harder events usually doesn't go around asking for every event to be made into a harder one.

38 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

That's exactly what's happening. A disportionate number of maps and metas have had harder content in recent expansions. Not only this but the try hards have been given above and beyond places to vet themselves without bothering the rest of us like HT cm and Cerus cm. 

No, it is not. Nothing "dispropotionate" about what's being discussed here. And how about you slow down with this nonsensical namecalling?

38 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I've previously stated that I'm not entirely against content like this but I do think it's overkill.

Weird, because in this thread you seem to be completely against it and based on this meta you already call it an overkill/"disproportionate amount" of content you don't want to see, while saying events like it should be instanced?

38 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

There needs to be places in the game where I don't have to worry about what other people are doing and I can just enjoy their presence.

Which is vast majority of the game. Yet here you are, repeating those "disproportionate" claims on top of saying this needs some "50 player raid comp". But it doesn't.

[Vayne.8563]

4 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

It's a valid complaint when you start playing a game that is a certain way to call out that it's changed and you're unhappy with it. And I suspect we'll end up with a pile of ghost metas in the long run. 

All MMOs change. To expect an MMO not to change over time is at the very best naive. Adapting to the changes is usually the game. If people don't like the changes enough, they leave. Anet had always wanted to include more difficult content in the game, and HOT was the first time they tried, so the game really changed eight years ago. And a lot of people couldn't deal with HoT, because there was no good ramp to it. It just hit people like a sledge hammer. That's no longer the case. Many changes have been made to make the game easier to play and learn.

The power creep right now is off the hook. We're much more powerful than we were, even with simple builds. Even without using full rotations. I know I am. And I hate complex rotations. In addition to that, we have the jade bot and the break bar, which didn't exist at launch. The defiance buff at launch was ridiculously hard to deal with and everyone ignored it. For the open world there are even tables now to help break bars.

The fact that you want the game to be the same in the open world in the middle of this crazy power creep, shows that you're not really paying attention to what's been going on. But this change to the game didn't change with Soto, or EoD. It changed with HOT, eight years ago.

Complain away, but we're not going back.

[Firebeard.1746]

 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Never said you're the only one complaining about it, so not sure how is this answering to what I said.

Really? Because you kinda did:
 

 

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

you're the one who wants the game to disproportionaly cater to you and the moment 1 slightly harder meta event appears

So that's false. "One" clearly refers to a single person, in this instance, myself. 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And how about you slow down with this nonsensical namecalling?

This is kinda rich. You're the one you likes to leverage personal attacks frequently (I mean heck, you just gaslit me by saying you didn't say what you said). Try hard doesn't have to have a negative context and I didn't mean it in a negative way. According to google AI:

Quote

 

"Try hard" is an informal term that has multiple meanings:
 

• To make an obvious effort

  To try to excel, but only achieve moderate success, especially when compared to ambitious goals. For example, "She just nodded, trying hard to disguise the fact that she'd been driving on autopilot".
• To act with excessive enthusiasm and effort

  To be known for enthusiasm, dedication, and persistence, and to give their utmost in all situations. For example, "Try hard individuals are often seen as role models and leaders".
• To conspicuously expend excessive effort

  To achieve a certain image, to the point where their personas are clearly contrived. For example, "The insult was originally hurled at those who conspicuously expend excessive effort into achieving a certain image".

 

 

Quote

Weird, because in this thread you seem to be completely against it and based on this meta you already call it an overkill/"disproportionate amount" of content you don't want to see, while saying events like it should be instanced?

People are allowed to clarify what they mean in a debate and I've already stated I'm not completely against it:
 

7 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Taking core tyria as an example we have 25 maps to TT. That's it. It's  not 20-33% of the game.  Teq is mostly a numbers thing and doesn't require alot of coordination so I'm not counting that. The rewards are sufficient to guarantee reliable success. But even if we chose to count teq, that's 8% of maps, no 20-33%

 

And to this:
 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yet here you are, repeating those "disproportionate" claims on top of saying this needs some "50 player raid comp". But it doesn't.

I'm just going to point that that others have said the same or implied it:
 

 

On 6/23/2024 at 8:01 PM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

It's understandable that it fails often. 

Given his health, all 50 people need to do a minimum dps of 8.4k each to kill the boss in time. 

Which I way to high for the average Openworld player. 

 

On 6/23/2024 at 5:03 PM, Randulf.7614 said:

The key is rift management, not afking on the floor if dead and not losing focus by shouting at those afking on the floor when dead. Not much more you personally can do when you are relying on 50-60+ other players working as a team

See you like to leverage personal attacks without considering the thread context, or even reading anything else on it. So you're just there to argue with me, aren't you? 

 

47 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

All MMOs change. To expect an MMO not to change over time is at the very best naive. Adapting to the changes is usually the game. If people don't like the changes enough, they leave.

This could be true. More than doubling the type of content that is this way on a dime is a jarring change. I guess we just have to see how many casuals wander off or don't buy janthir to really see. I wasn't aware anet had this master plan all along, and I may not have taken this game seriously had I known. I found the open world in PoF and season 4 very refreshing when coming away from WoW and I'm not really sure what's differentiating this game if they expect my effort above that level when I'm not doing instanced content. 

At least one of us is getting what they want I guess. 

I do worry that anet doesn't fully respect the fact that some players may not always adapt to power creep or new play styles because they like their current build and playstyle and that some percentage of their players won't rise to meet the challenge and they need to be sure that those players can finish major content. I think not letting them finish the crowning meta of an expansion is kinda extreme. It might even go down better if they made the mid meta the harder one. 

Performance in this game is more capped than it is in games with vertical progression and I just really worry that anet doesn't fully respect that they're locking some players out of completing the content when they do this. Whether that's due to the player not adapting is moot, imo as this game is supposed to focused more on permanent progress than other MMOs and it's one of the major draws. 

Edited August 15 by Firebeard.1746

[Vayne.8563]

17 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 

Really? Because you kinda did:
 

 

So that's false. "One" clearly refers to a single person, in this instance, myself. 

This is kinda rich. You're the one you likes to leverage personal attacks frequently (I mean heck, you just gaslit me by saying you didn't say what you said). Try hard doesn't have to have a negative context and I didn't mean it in a negative way. According to google AI:

  People are allowed to clarify what they mean in a debate and I've already stated I'm not completely against it:
 

 

And to this:
 

I'm just going to point that that others have said the same or implied it:
 

 

 

See you like to leverage personal attacks without considering the thread context, or even reading anything else on it. So you're just there to argue with me, aren't you? 

 

This could be true. More than doubling the type of content that is this way on a dime is a jarring change. I guess we just have to see how many casuals wander off or don't buy janthir to really see. I wasn't aware anet had this master plan all along, and I may not have taken this game seriously had I known. I found the open world in PoF and season 4 very refreshing when coming away from WoW and I'm not really sure what's differentiating this game if they expect my effort above that level when I'm not doing instanced content. 

At least one of us is getting what they want I guess. 

I do worry that anet doesn't fully respect the fact that some players may not always adapt to power creep or new play styles because they like their current build and playstyle and that some percentage of their players won't rise to meet the challenge and they need to be sure that those players can finish major content. I think not letting them finish the crowning meta of an expansion is kinda extreme. It might even go down better if they made the mid meta the harder one. 

Performance in this game is more capped than it is in games with vertical progression and I just really worry that anet doesn't fully respect that they're locking some players out of completing the content when they do this. Whether that's due to the player not adapting is moot, imo as this game is supposed to focused more on permanent progress than other MMOs and it's one of the major draws. 

Logically speaking, making the game harder is the way to go.  At least some people want challenge and as we get more power creep the game needs to get harder to compensate. Of course, when it gets harder, it requires that people learn something of the mechanics, but this is all logical. The only way they could keep the game exactly the same, is to make it stagnant and you'd lose the people who wanted a challenge.

But challenge, of course, means different things to different people. Not everyone wants a raid challenge and not everyone who wants a challenge is going to jump into raids and fractals. A lot of people are self-conscious. They don't want to be in a small group where people depend on them. But they don't mind jumping into a harder meta to test themselves. Those people need content too.

You're complaining about the game as it is. I'm not. I'm saying I may not like everything, but I'm not asking for the game to change, you are. I'm saying it's fine how it is, even if I don't like all of it. Yes, there are some achievements I'm never going to get.

The big mistake Anet made with DE was locking the turtle egg behind it, after saying the turtle was a feature of the expansion. Particularly early on, when it was bugged, and the power creep hadn't quite amped up enough yet, it was a bad move on Anet's part and it took them too long to change it. Same thing with reqiuring a strike mission for the turtle. Again it was changed, but it took too long. That disenfranchised casual players.

But neither of those conditions exist anymore and the new meta doesn't have anything you need locked behind it, so in my opinion it's fair game. And finding an organized group isn't that hard. This meta isn't nearly as hard as DE was when it came out.  So no, I say the game is okay the way it is, even if there are parts of it I don't enjoy because other people are enjoying it. But the changes you're talking about about making things more challenging, started with Heart of Thorns, and that came out 3.5 years after the game launched.

This is hardly a hidden agenda, the entire expansion was too hard for the most casual players. Others adapted.  POF was released as almost the anti-HoT because HOT caused a problem with casuals.  Every hero point soloable, unless you were super casual anyway, and the group challenges like bounties were completely optional (unless you wanted a griffon). At the end of the day, this isn't new or something that's just come up, it's the game as it stands for eight years.

I'm not sure what you think this secret agenda was. What's more logical than playing a game and getting better at it. In a game with horizontal progression, the only way the game progresses at all is with people getting better at it. That doesn't suddenly make it hard core. And there will be a percentage of people resistent to that, but the game, since HOT, has picked up steam mostly (pun intended), and is now in the process of growing at a higher level than it was back in say 2019. 

YOU may not like it, but that doesn't mean there are enough people in your demographic to affect game sales.

[Firebeard.1746]

15 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

But neither of those conditions exist anymore and the new meta doesn't have anything you need locked behind it, so in my opinion it's fair gam

It still feels kinda scummy with it being the final meta of the expansion and hence a major part of the story. I agree with most of your other points.

One I sort of disagree with is this: 

15 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Logically speaking, making the game harder is the way to go. 

Because I think there's a fair % of the player base whose output is static or they don't have time to improve. Also some of the player base will regress over time as they age. For example one of my coworkers has completely quit pubg even though it's his favorite game because he just doesn't feel relevant anymore due to his age (he feels he just can't compete anymore). With very little vertical progression, players will hit limits. I also don't want them to rely on power creep as a solution because some weapons like staff are super iconic for some professions like elementalist (which is the "wizard" profession), so relying on them to use spears to beat content will cause a lot of friction against personal interpretation of class fantasy. 

The appropriate thing is moving the harder stuff to instanced content imo. 
 

Edited August 15 by Firebeard.1746

[Mistwraithe.3106]

3 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

That's exactly what's happening. A disportionate number of maps and metas have had harder content in recent expansions.

Incidentally it sounds like the first two maps of JW don't have a big map meta and are potentially more like core maps with world bosses (on a timer) or other things going on. I expect the standard mobs will still be rather harder than core of course, but it might be more the sort of thing you are looking for.

[Sobx.1758]

17 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

18 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Never said you're the only one complaining about it, so not sure how is this answering to what I said.

Really? Because you kinda did:
 

20 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

you're the one who wants the game to disproportionaly cater to you and the moment 1 slightly harder meta event appears

So that's false. "One" clearly refers to a single person, in this instance, myself. 

No, without change I didn't say anything about you being "the only one complaining about it". What you quoted is talking about you being the one who wants the game to disproportionatly cater to you, instead of Vayne who you made that claim about.

17 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

This is kinda rich. You're the one you likes to leverage personal attacks frequently (I mean heck, you just gaslit me by saying you didn't say what you said). Try hard doesn't have to have a negative context and I didn't mean it in a negative way. According to google AI:

It's because you keep incorrectly writing it as 2 words (which then is confirmed by the descriptions you just included in your current post). "Try hard" you linked here is a VERB. Meanwhile you're using it in a sentence as a NOUN calling people "tryhards" ("but the try hards have been given..."), you simply incorrectly wrote it as two words, but it's clear what you meant because using it as a verb in that sentence doesn't make sense. And no, I did not insult or personally attacked anyone (nor do I know what "leveraging personal attacks" is supposed to mean).

17 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

People are allowed to clarify what they mean in a debate

It was unclear to me that you changed your stance now, no problem with that. Although you're making a comparison between lvl 80 expansions and core maps which are there largly for people who just started the game and still level up to lvl 80. At that point in the game they're learning the mechanics of the game and their characters are still gaining power which then they subsequently keep gaining in further expansions, which makes the difference in the difficulty perfectly reasonable. Not only that, but including this meta in this expansion still isn't 20-33% of the game (which is the claim you make in the post you've linked to, right?) and... not even close.

I also find it confusing that despite claiming you're not against it, you still keep sticking to your previous opinion about it not having place in ow, like in the very next post you wrote within the same hour you told me you're not entirely against it.

16 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

The appropriate thing is moving the harder stuff to instanced content imo. 

So which one is it? You're not entirely against it or there's no place for it? Because currently it seems to keep going in a new -and back to old again- direction every other post. But again, there is place for that content in ow, people are succesfully pugging it. It's ok for an event to fail here and there, especially when its mechanics are ignored. And no, it's still not anywhere close to 20-33% of the game/maps.

 

17 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

See you like to leverage personal attacks without considering the thread context, or even reading anything else on it. So you're just there to argue with me, aren't you?

At no point I insulted or personally attacked anyone, so clearly not.

 

16 hours ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

Incidentally it sounds like the first two maps of JW don't have a big map meta and are potentially more like core maps with world bosses (on a timer) or other things going on. I expect the standard mobs will still be rather harder than core of course, but it might be more the sort of thing you are looking for.

Yup, it seems it will be in a style of grothmar valley.

Edited August 16 by Sobx.1758

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

It still feels kinda scummy with it being the final meta of the expansion and hence a major part of the story. I agree with most of your other points.

One I sort of disagree with is this: 

Because I think there's a fair % of the player base whose output is static or they don't have time to improve. Also some of the player base will regress over time as they age. For example one of my coworkers has completely quit pubg even though it's his favorite game because he just doesn't feel relevant anymore due to his age (he feels he just can't compete anymore). With very little vertical progression, players will hit limits. I also don't want them to rely on power creep as a solution because some weapons like staff are super iconic for some professions like elementalist (which is the "wizard" profession), so relying on them to use spears to beat content will cause a lot of friction against personal interpretation of class fantasy. 

The appropriate thing is moving the harder stuff to instanced content imo. 
 

But you don't have evidence. You think this is the case. You have a guy you know that left. You know who has evidence of who plays what? Anet. I promise you if no one played that content, Anet wouldn't keep making it.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

@Firebeard.1746

Dps is LITERALLY the reason it fails. 

Get a dps meter and looks what kind of dps people are doing.

Many People are doing 5k dps. 

In a world where 2-3 button Openworld builds can do 20k dps. 

Where 30k+ is kitten easy to reach. 

The game is powercreeped to high heavens. 

It's just Openworld people whining again that them being unbelievably bad at the game doesn't get them rewarded. 

 

 

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@Firebeard.1746

Dps is LITERALLY the reason it fails. 

Get a dps meter and looks what kind of dps people are doing.

Many People are doing 5k dps. 

In a world where 2-3 button Openworld builds can do 20k dps. 

Where 30k+ is kitten easy to reach. 

The game is powercreeped to high heavens. 

It's just Openworld people whining again that them being unbelievably bad at the game doesn't get them rewarded. 

 

 

I wish people would stop saying 30 k is easy to reach.  Maybe 30k on a training golem, but not necessarily on a fight like DE, or the new meta.  There's too much downtime from too many mechanics. At any rate,  if everyone did 10k it would probably be successful.  You don't need a damage meter and telling people to go out of the game and set one up means a lot of people will just not do it.  The training golem is in the game and people can learn and experiment on that without downloading another program.

Not everyone is comfortable with figuring out how to use and install arc. I don't know how old you are, or what your computer background is, but there are a lot of people in this game who are older, not particularly computer literate, and it's a losing battle. I can't get half the people I deal with to jump into a discord. If they're not going to discord, they're not likely to use arc either.

But even if you have a few people doing 20k and a few people doing 10k and a few people doing 5k, you can still beat the open world content. I know because I've looked at arc results of DE and I've seen it successful.

But it's more than just a rotation. It's also the ability to stay up, which means knowing for and being ready for mechanics. You know them, so you stay up and do more DPS. A lot of people die very quickly or very often. In the new meta in inner nayos, that means flying back from the emergency waypoint, or using a revive orb.  It's just not as simple as you make it out to be.

People probably should learn the game at least a little, but that doesn't mean they need arc dps. They need to learn the basics first. Moving out of circles. Timing dodges. You'd be amazed at how many people playing this game don't know that a dodge gives you invulnerability even if you stay in a circle, as long as you time it right.  A lot of people don't know which of their skills are bar breaks, or what a defiance bar even does.

It's a lot more that arc dps. Source: I train a lot of new players  that arc dps wouldn't help initially. First you have to learn the basics. Plenty of people running around who haven't bothered, or don't even know there's something to learn. 
 

[Cyninja.2954]

3 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I wish people would stop saying 30 k is easy to reach.  Maybe 30k on a training golem, but not necessarily on a fight like DE, or the new meta.  There's too much downtime from too many mechanics. At any rate,  if everyone did 10k it would probably be successful.  You don't need a damage meter and telling people to go out of the game and set one up means a lot of people will just not do it.  The training golem is in the game and people can learn and experiment on that without downloading another program.
 

To be fair, reaching 30k is easy. It does require 3 points though )and these are not easily reached alone):

1. boons supports being present for all the offensive boons

2. proper gear of at least exotic quality

3. a proper build to accommodate that gear

Nearly every class has low intensity or some times no intensity (aka only auto-attack)  30k+ builds as such reaching that amount of damage, if the above 3 points are given, is very easy. The difficult part is conveying this information to all players.

Now the question here is:"should every player be aware of these builds?" and I personally believe the answer to that is: "no".

What players should be aware of is BOONS. If more players knew about boons, boons support builds and what creating a proper builds looks like, everything else falls in line.

Quote

But even if you have a few people doing 20k and a few people doing 10k and a few people doing 5k, you can still beat the open world content. I know because I've looked at arc results of DE and I've seen it successful.

That is true. Most if not all world bosses are easily beaten with the numbers you mention.

Which makes this  ironic since 3-5 players on proper boon support builds can literally carry entire metas (or convergences), making it even more depressing when in squads of 50+ people not even so few are on proper builds.

A boon support build providing 25 might, fury and quickness to 4 other players (let's ignore spillover here) will increase the dps of the squad by at least +20k and as much as +40-50k (compared to not having those boons). Easily seen in failing squads where the top dps are racing for 20k dps instead of 30k dps (which is a function of those dps players not having the required boons usually).

Quote

But it's more than just a rotation. It's also the ability to stay up, which means knowing for and being ready for mechanics. You know them, so you stay up and do more DPS. A lot of people die very quickly or very often. In the new meta in inner nayos, that means flying back from the emergency waypoint, or using a revive orb.  It's just not as simple as you make it out to be.

To a certain degree yes, but even this is supported and mitigated by boons and support builds. Most stuff in the open world can be face tanked no matter the meta/convergence.

Having a lot of players die over and over is most often a function of lacking healing supports rather than players lacking knowledge of mechanics (in open world content).

Quote

People probably should learn the game at least a little, but that doesn't mean they need arc dps. They need to learn the basics first. Moving out of circles. Timing dodges. You'd be amazed at how many people playing this game don't know that a dodge gives you invulnerability even if you stay in a circle, as long as you time it right.  A lot of people don't know which of their skills are bar breaks, or what a defiance bar even does.

Agreed, arcdps just provides a way for players to realize that something is off. Arcdps is not needed in the slightest if players were attune enough to pay attention to the already provided information given by the game, alas most are not.

The only thing most players need to learn is, and I am repeating myself here: this game revolves around boons. It always has and as long as boons are THIS powerful, it always will.

TL;DR:

The only thing this game needs is for more players to realize that boon support builds will carry any content. The developers have slowly changed their development approach to both expect some basic knowledge of boons from players as well as provide ample opportunity for each and every class to be able to provide boons. I believe it is not to much to ask from players to understand as little as this (not even talking about break-bars, or blasting, or rotations, or movement, or combo fields, etc.).

Even the most dysfunctional, non-synergistic, bad build will reach 5-8k dps with full boons while auto-attacking (go ahead try it out, make any class, give it random weapons, no trait and let it auto attack the golem with full offensive boons) which in turn is sufficient to beat nearly all open world content in this game.

Open world groups fail when both boons are not present AND builds are bad, because then the bottom dps actually reaches sub 2k and below.

Edited August 16 by Cyninja.2954

[Vayne.8563]

40 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

To be fair, reaching 30k is easy. It does require 3 points though )and these are not easily reached alone):

1. boons supports being present for all the offensive boons

2. proper gear of at least exotic quality

3. a proper build to accommodate that gear

Nearly every class has low intensity or some times no intensity (aka only auto-attack)  30k+ builds as such reaching that amount of damage, if the above 3 points are given, is very easy. The difficult part is conveying this information to all players.

Now the question here is:"should every player be aware of these builds?" and I personally believe the answer to that is: "no".

What players should be aware of is BOONS. If more players knew about boons, boons support builds and what creating a proper builds looks like, everything else falls in line.

That is true. Most if not all world bosses are easily beaten with the numbers you mention.

Which makes this  ironic since 3-5 players on proper boon support builds can literally carry entire metas (or convergences), making it even more depressing when in squads of 50+ people not even so few are on proper builds.

A boon support build providing 25 might, fury and quickness to 4 other players (let's ignore spillover here) will increase the dps of the squad by at least +20k and as much as +40-50k (compared to not having those boons). Easily seen in failing squads where the top dps are racing for 20k dps instead of 30k dps (which is a function of those dps players not having the required boons usually).

To a certain degree yes, but even this is supported and mitigated by boons and support builds. Most stuff in the open world can be face tanked no matter the meta/convergence.

Having a lot of players die over and over is most often a function of lacking healing supports rather than players lacking knowledge of mechanics (in open world content).

Agreed, arcdps just provides a way for players to realize that something is off. Arcdps is not needed in the slightest if players were attune enough to pay attention to the already provided information given by the game, alas most are not.

The only thing most players need to learn is, and I am repeating myself here: this game revolves around boons. It always has and as long as boons are THIS powerful, it always will.

TL;DR:

The only thing this game needs is for more players to realize that boon support builds will carry any content. The developers have slowly changed their development approach to both expect some basic knowledge of boons from players as well as provide ample opportunity for each and every class to be able to provide boons. I believe it is not to much to ask from players to understand as little as this (not even talking about break-bars, or blasting, or rotations, or movement, or combo fields, etc.).

Even the most dysfunctional, non-synergistic, bad build will reach 5-8k dps with full boons while auto-attacking (go ahead try it out, make any class, give it random weapons, no trait and let it auto attack the golem with full offensive boons) which in turn is sufficient to beat nearly all open world content in this game.

Open world groups fail when both boons are not present AND builds are bad, because then the bottom dps actually reaches sub 2k and below.

All good points. I don't disagree with anything you've said.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

@Vayne.8563

30k is easy to reach. 

Like cyninja said, proper gear and boons are needed. 

However, good exo gear is unbelievably cheap. We speak of less than a gold per piece which also comes with good upgrades.

Every class can get boons for themself too. 

My Openworld build on Warrior has 25might and Perma Fury, stab and Quickness. It even shares might and fury. 

Truth is, nobody expects Openworld players to get good. They only need to be semi decent. 

The performance of so many Openworld players is just so horrendous. I question reality sometimes. 

[Randulf.7614]

30k is not "easy". It's easy to people because they have the skill do it, the mindset to understand it or the time to practice and make it seem easy. If it was easy, almost everyone would be doing it without any real effort or memorising rotations or looking at guides etc. For some, it's a game they play for an odd hour or two to unwind. It should never be expected they know every facet of combat to be able to push to raid level dps in open world.

People need to stop blaming players for low dps when the game has never encouraged having 15, 20, 30k dps in most circumstances (in fact it teaches quite thte opposite) nor does it teach how to do it in game. This ridiculous blame game (of both sides) needs to stop. It's not healthy for the game nor is it the principle the game is built on.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't be encouraging people to improve where practical, but it's undermined by going "30k is easy" when it clearly isn't. Players who do it easily are just good

[Cyninja.2954]

53 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

30k is not "easy". It's easy to people because they have the skill do it, the mindset to understand it or the time to practice and make it seem easy. If it was easy, almost everyone would be doing it without any real effort or memorising rotations or looking at guides etc. For some, it's a game they play for an odd hour or two to unwind. It should never be expected they know every facet of combat to be able to push to raid level dps in open world.

People need to stop blaming players for low dps when the game has never encouraged having 15, 20, 30k dps in most circumstances (in fact it teaches quite thte opposite) nor does it teach how to do it in game. This ridiculous blame game (of both sides) needs to stop. It's not healthy for the game nor is it the principle the game is built on.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't be encouraging people to improve where practical, but it's undermined by going "30k is easy" when it clearly isn't. Players who do it easily are just good

No, 30k is easy if you have the boons, and as mentioned by me those will obviously have to come from boon supports (which themselves usually reach decent dps numbers and too can be played as low intensity builds and will suffice to reach 15-20k dps).

We have builds which reach 30k when ONLY auto-attacking like core guardian:

There are DOZENS of videos from content creators about LOW INTENSITY builds on youtube, many which outperform even auto attack core guardian.

The time where 30k was in ANY shape or form related to ANY rotation are over 6 years past and not remotely applicable since the pre EoD and post EoD power creep.

Current rotations and "proper" builds hover at around 42-46k dps. 30k of today is the old 20k of the past.

All this forum information is way way WAY outdated. When people talk about power creep then THIS is what is being refereed to. Well this and the amount of boon spam and availability.

The reason why most are not doing "damage" was explained by me: bad builds and no boons, neither by them nor others around them. THAT'S the issue. Compounding ineptitude being then covered for in forum discussions. No players should not need to run proper rotations for open world content (in fact this is almost needed for no content in this game) but what one can expect is for players to understand FUNDAMENTALS of this game, like significance of boons.

You can succeed at "challenging" open world content with either running a proper build (and having no one give you boons) or having a bad build but other giving you boons. Either approach works for all open world dps checks because that's how lenient the encounters are designed. What you can't do is lack both AND expect guaranteed success on the "challenging:" open world content. That does not work.

The developers have opened up boons and access to boons ever since EoD to break up the pigeon-hold of the 4 meta support classes back then (druid, chrono, FB, herald). They've made access to boons and keeping them up permanently easier too. The expectation now is that players, or at least those which still have not gotten with the program, make use of this fundamental game design aspect to succeed. That's where we are at now.

EDIT:

and just to be clear, this is a NO INTENSITY build. It literally requires 0 input and works off of pure auto-attacks and staying on target. 

Edited August 16 by Cyninja.2954

[Randulf.7614]

16 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 

me if they expect my effort above that level when I'm not doing instanced content. 

At least one of us is getting what they want I guess. 

I do worry that anet doesn't fully respect the fact that some players may not always adapt to power creep or new play styles because they like their current build and playstyle and that some percentage of their players won't rise to meet the challenge and they need to be sure that those players can finish major content. I think not letting them finish the crowning meta of an expansion is kinda extreme. It might even go down better if they made the mid meta the harder one. 

Performance in this game is more capped than it is in games with vertical progression and I just really worry that anet doesn't fully respect that they're locking some players out of completing the content when they do this. Whether that's due to the player not adapting is moot, imo as this game is supposed to focused more on permanent progress than other MMOs and it's one of the major draws. 

I can’t reach 30k dps. I can’t even 20k or even close. It’s simply not that easy. I could prob spend time and effort and do it, but it would challenge me and I doubt I’d be having fun. Nor do I want to run around in zerker stats with auto attack hammer and do nothing else. That’s not fun, I’m not going to play the game in that way, even if it locks me from cms and raids.

She got 30k by being good enough and knowledgable enough to discover it. Most players aren’t going to go watching videos - as I said the game is just a chill, casual fun fest in the evenings for many of us. Not atudying the game is not a sign of ineptitude and it’s annoying people keep falling back on this and hyperbole like “yeah it’s easy”.

If the only way to hit 30k dps without extensive understanding is to copy an out of game video build to the letter, then it’s not really “easy” for everyone to be expected just to go ahead and do it off the bat.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

7 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I can’t reach 30k dps. I can’t even 20k or even close. It’s simply not that easy. I could prob spend time and effort and do it, but it would challenge me and I doubt I’d be having fun. Nor do I want to run around in zerker stats with auto attack hammer and do nothing else. That’s not fun, I’m not going to play the game in that way, even if it locks me from cms and raids.

Again, this was an example build. There are dozens more to chose from and different builds will bring different playstyles.

 The claim was:"reaching 30k dps is easy".

This build and others like it prove it is.

7 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

She got 30k by being good enough and knowledgable enough to discover it. Most players aren’t going to go watching videos - as I said the game is just a chill, casual fun fest in the evenings for many of us. Not atudying the game is not a sign of ineptitude and it’s annoying people keep falling back on this and hyperbole like “yeah it’s easy”.

If the only way to hit 30k dps without extensive understanding is to copy an out of game video build to the letter, then it’s not really “easy” for everyone to be expected just to go ahead and do it off the bat.

I'm sorry, lack of understanding of game fundamentals, okay.

Lack of understanding buildcraft, okay too.

Lack of will to look up a proper build if struggling with something too?

At which point is it the players responsibility to actually "come prepared" to content?

Sure, and players which fail have then just gotten feedback that they need to change something about their build. How they go about doing that is left to everyone to decide themselves.

There are resources availbale but in the end, every player gets to decide themselves how and if they make use of those.

[Firebeard.1746]

19 hours ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

Incidentally it sounds like the first two maps of JW don't have a big map meta and are potentially more like core maps with world bosses (on a timer) or other things going on. I expect the standard mobs will still be rather harder than core of course, but it might be more the sort of thing you are looking for.

That's definitely good to point out. I just want control over when I'm doing something more difficult and I want the OW to more or less be fine to play how it was in PoF/S4 era. That's what sold me on the game. The hints they're making convergences harder don't bring me any peace given how much NA struggles with Umbriel (and is part of the reason I haven't purchased Janthir yet. I don't pay the PVE team to give me unenjoyable experiences when it comes to public content). I have yet to have a kill on him. Also I think NA doesn't have any backbone. I joined a group for this last night for kicks and giggles and initially we were doing fine, but I noticed people dropping from squad at the first sign of trouble and then rifts stopped getting done and then it was downhill from there. 

If I buy Janthir it will be because of those maps and/or homesteads, but I'm worried if I buy too soon I'll signal that I'm happy with the state of the game and most of the PVE has felt off for me since drizzlewood. THe feel for the most part just isn't there and everything is spongy. If I'm buying a game where I can't play half the public content, that's not a game to me. I play this game because of the relaxed public content. I'll do harder content, I'll even fill a role or play a support to help carry in OW, but I do not liike failing events because the right people didn't show up at the right time or because NA players have so much trauma with DE that they leave at the first sign of trouble. My understanding is that EU has taken this direction far better than NA and it will ruin NA's playerbase imo.

Edited August 16 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I can’t reach 30k dps. I can’t even 20k or even close. It’s simply not that easy. I could prob spend time and effort and do it, but it would challenge me and I doubt I’d be having fun. Nor do I want to run around in zerker stats with auto attack hammer and do nothing else. That’s not fun, I’m not going to play the game in that way, even if it locks me from cms and raids.

She got 30k by being good enough and knowledgable enough to discover it. Most players aren’t going to go watching videos - as I said the game is just a chill, casual fun fest in the evenings for many of us. Not atudying the game is not a sign of ineptitude and it’s annoying people keep falling back on this and hyperbole like “yeah it’s easy”.

If the only way to hit 30k dps without extensive understanding is to copy an out of game video build to the letter, then it’s not really “easy” for everyone to be expected just to go ahead and do it off the bat.

On one hand , I get what you're getting at. On the other though, if dealing 30k dmg is a google search and an afk autoattack build away, it is easy even if someone isn't willing to do the search or gear for it. As in someone not doing x doesn't exactly dismiss x being easy.
But how the players are supposed to know they don't have the damage when the game didn't encourage them to care about their damage? Well... enter those few events that are able to fail. See the hp bar you didn't deplete before the time ran out? That's the information. See someone saying "not enough dps" (and if you failed an event here and there due to dps.. you DID see someone mention it) and you're not sure what damage you're dealing? Well, maybe it's time to test it out on a golem or sth. But hey, what if you just don't care about improving? Well, cool, you have majority of the game to play and succeed while not caring about any bare minimum. Is this unfair? I don't think it is, because apparently what was blamed for it was "the game not requiring" and "the game not letting you know it's not enough". If it does let you know these things and you don't care, it sounds like it then becomes a choice.

Tbh I think it's more important here to point out it's not even really about "30k dps is easy" claim (although I get why some feel it's fair to contest it since that's the exact claim which was made here) because you don't even need close to 30k dps there anyways. In other words: it doesn't even need to be argued that "30k dps is easy", because you'd be fine with half of that (including the event-specific damage buff you can pick up), right?

 

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I just want control over when I'm doing something more difficult

And you have that control by choosing what content/event you're participating.

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

The hints they're making convergences harder don't bring me any peace given how much NA struggles with Umbriel (and is part of the reason I haven't purchased Janthir yet. I don't pay the PVE team to give me unenjoyable experiences when it comes to public content)

So... now you're not only against that ow content, but even against the harder instanced content, which is now partially what makes you not buy the expansion? I don't know if I'm somehow still missing something here, but it really seems you keep changing your stance about in every other post you make here.

[Firebeard.1746]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And you have that control by choosing what content/event you're participating.

True, but would you really only want to play a game where you're missing 25-33% of the content? I don't want to spend most of my time organizing groups. So to me, public content is most of the content even if I'll play instanced content. 

 

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So... now you're not only against that ow content, but even against the harder instanced content, which is now partially what makes you not buy the expansion? I don't know if I'm somehow still missing something here, but it really seems you keep changing your stance about in every other post you make here.

You're missing the part where I want to enjoy public content, which is what I've already stated. Convergences are public content. I do not want to spend a huge pportion of my time in organized groups. It adds a lot of overhead. Again, you seem to struggle read my posts:

 

 

3 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

If I'm buying a game where I can't play half the public content, that's not a game to me. I play this game because of the relaxed public content. I'll do harder content, I'll even fill a role or play a support to help carry in OW, but I do not liike failing events because the right people didn't show up at the right time or because NA players have so much trauma with DE that they leave at the first sign of trouble. My understanding is that EU has taken this direction far better than NA and it will ruin NA's playerbase imo.

The % of public content they're making difficult is much higher than it's ever been. Personal attacks on me don't change that fact at all and that I just dont find having to organize content fun.

I could be the only one, then it's just anet's loss if I decide I don't want to keep buying  the game or just don't get the more expensive versions like I did. They're the ones with the bean counters.

Overall though, the game just doesn't feel the same for me and PVE team feels completely different than before and I don't think it's all in a good way. 

Edited August 16 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

True, but would you really only want to play a game where you're missing 25-33% of the content? I don't want to spend most of my time

As already pointed out, it's not 25-33% of the game's content. But if you feel you don't want to play the game then you're also free to make that choice, but if that's what everyone would base it off, nobody would buy any mmorpg with content of ranging difficulty levels. At which point we go back to the game not specifically catering to x player, because it delivers range of content for range of players.

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

You're missing the part where I want to enjoy public content, which is what I've already stated. Convergences are public content. I do not want to spend a huge pportion of my time in organized groups. It adds a lot of overhead. Again, you seem to struggle read my posts:

Convergences are instanced content. They're literally as public as any other instanced content.

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

The % of public content they're making difficult is much higher than it's ever been.

Maybe if you include core maps designed for low level players who started playing the game. Whcih was already pointed out in the previous posts.

Edited August 16 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Convergences are instanced content. They're literally as public as any other instanced content.

So there's not a "public" and "private" option with the public option only being open for a short period of time, circumventing the need for me to organize a group? Now you're just playing dumb because you don't want to be wrong. 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

As already pointed out, it's not 25-33% of the game's content.

If you tally the content that is public and weight that against the amount of time I spend in game actually playing (not doing chores), it's easily that if not more. It doesn't matter if they have 50 other instanced maps I have to organize groups for if it's not content I'll regularly be playing. I imagine most players don't spend their time in instanced content a majority of the time.  DE is practically dead in NA most of the time. For anyone who enjoyed OW content, it's a lot of content to lose an entire map. Admittedly, nayos isn't as bad. 

Edited August 16 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

So there's not a "public" and "private" option with the public option only being open for a short period of time, circumventing the need for me to organize a group? Now you're just playing dumb because you don't want to be wrong. 

First you're against this content. Then you're saying you think this content shouldn't be in ow, but just in instances (which I still disagree with and don't see the basis for). Then you point out to me that you clarified and aren't against that content. Then you're saying CONVERGENCES (instanced content) is part of the reason you're not buying the expansion. Now you're saying... it's about "public" vs "private" squads.
Like.. what? What is the "private vs public squad entry" supposed to be changing about anything here?

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

If you tally the content that is public and weight that against the amount of time I spend in game actually playing (not doing chores), it's easily that if not more.

Nope, it easly is not.

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I am against it being a disproportionate number amount of content compared to the game historically and I've stated that before, this is you willlingly not trying to understand my posts in context. We've had more than enough for now and no amount of you splitting hairs going to make me suddenly love this content. What's your goal here? 

If there's any disproportional amount of content, it's on the easy content's side. If you want to keep playing core game, the only way to do it is keep playing core game. And that's also the option you have, so I wish you all best in playing the content you want to play, exactly like other players do without requesting the game to overwhelmingly cater to them and just them. Which is also what was pointed out quite a while ago, I believe by Vayne.
And with that, good luck not buying the expansion if that's what you feel is the best for you, most of the other players will buy it and either play all of the content or partial content that they're intersted in. 🤷‍♂️ 

Edited August 16 by Sobx.1758