Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Ranger

[SeTect.5918]

3 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

I'd just add boon strip to it. A copy paste of the GS ambush, yeah, but it wouldn't hurt for Untamed to have more of one of the things it is "supposed" to do. It could also make a spear/gs untamed interesting for WvW.

The funny thing is that the GS and spear ambush have pretty much the same second half of their skill descriptions.

"Attack in an area around you, creating a spore under each enemy struck."

"Release a wave of corruption in front of you, damaging enemies and spawning spores under targets struck."

It's almost like they forgot to add the boon rip/corrupt from how it is worded. Out of the two, the spear sounds more like the boon ripping/corrputing one..

 

Now that you say it, yeah. 

Wave of corruption sounds kinda like boon remove/steal/convert.

Instead it just deals strike damage, which is kinda against the description. Wave of destruction would fit it more. But even in that case, it should deal more damage than sword or mace ambush because strike damage is literally the only thing it does now. 

But i am rather for giving a nice effect like boon corrupt or boon steal. 

I think boon corrupt would fit the best. Sure, greatsword has "only" boon remove and not boon corrupt or steal, but greatsword does more strike damage and additionally inflicts 5 stacks of vulnerability. Even more reason that spear ambush should receive a buff or 1-2 side effects.

Edited August 22 by SeTect.5918

[Arheundel.6451]

7 hours ago, Pharmacist.5410 said:

It’s performing incredibly well in PvP and WvW for me. Any one who says otherwise is just a matter of personal skill issues. You need to be running a proper build and have a thief like approach to your playstyle.

Sure....if by any chance ranger spear would be any good...I'd see at least couple rangers roaming...right now it's 0 rangers around like normal every day. Sorry but right now ranger spear is literally the worst there is...it's literally useless

 

Edited August 22 by Arheundel.6451

[AliamRationem.5172]

I am enjoying spear, but I think the hunter's prowess design is too cumbersome.  First, the fact that ambush skills are the same skill but better in every way makes the mechanic feel uninteresting.  There's no reason you would ever want to use the non-ambush versions of the skill over the ambush versions.  It's also slow because stealth adds a 0.5s cast time and a second skill activation as a prerequisite for your other skills.  And while that would appear to be a good trade, because the weapon must be balanced the damage from non-ambush attacks is artificially lowered with the expectation being that you use the stronger version whenever it's available.

For me, what worked best with ranger spear was the auto-attack.  It gives the weapon a decidedly melee play style, while still allowing you to be partially effective at range.  I really like that idea, so here are my thoughts on a re-envisioned spear for ranger:

Skill #1:

Drake's Swipe/Wyvern's Lash/Cheetah's Strike: No change.

Bee's Sting: No change.

Ravager's Abandon: Now causes 1s knockdown.

Skill #2:

Mongoose's Frenzy is now a 900 range attack that fires three piercing projectiles.  Grants 2s quickness to the ranger if used from stealth or while revealed.

Wolf's Onslaught now grants 2s quickness to the ranger upon skill activation in addition to its current effects.

Skill #3:

Falcon's Stoop now pierces.

Owl's Flight name changed to Bear's Fury, becoming a melee attack that strikes up to 5 targets at 240 range in a frontal cone while granting 3s fury to the ranger upon skill activation. 

Skill #4:

Warclaw's Engage now applies 3s daze if used from stealth or while revealed.

Predator's Ambush is no longer a 600 range leap but a melee attack that applies 3 stacks of might for 5s to the ranger.  If used from stealth or while revealed, the 3s daze becomes a stun instead.

Skill #5:

Panther's Prowl: No change.

Spider's Web: No change (unless you want to do something with that total eyesore of an animation!)

Hunter's Prowess: Removed because it's redundant as Warclaw's Engage, Predator's Ambush, and Spider's Web conditionals will function whether stealthed or revealed.

 

I think this would result in a weapon that is simultaneously more versatile and interesting while also being easier to use.  The 2 and 3 skills no longer require you to enable stealth for maximum impact, instead giving you the choice between distinct melee and ranged variants depending upon positioning.  Predator's Ambush/Warclaw's Engage allow you to choose between a leap engage or a higher damage melee attack + daze, but you can still add a daze to the leap via stealth or convert the daze into a stun on the melee attack.  You'd also still need stealth to activate Spider's Web.  This reduction in the reliance on stealth should make the weapon feel less cumbersome while having the additional ranged attacks will make it feel a little more complete when you can't be at melee range.

 

 

[Lazze.9870]

On 8/22/2024 at 2:25 PM, Pharmacist.5410 said:

It’s performing incredibly well in PvP and WvW for me. Any one who says otherwise is just a matter of personal skill issues. You need to be running a proper build and have a thief like approach to your playstyle.

I don't think the additon of spear is even worth the smokescale nerf, tbh.

They preemptively nerf (because of course they do, they always do that with ranger) smokescale and jaguar because of a bunch of stealth attacks on a single weapon. Nerfing smokescale is a nerf to pretty much any power build.

Giving Jaguar, a 15k health pet with no toughness, a 45s cooldown F2 is a death sentence.

Skill 2 and 3 need a damage bump, at the very least. I think I would have preferred a condi weapon with good cleave and utility over this. 

Edited August 24 by Lazze.9870

[Altex.6083]

I think the whole design goal with spear is just bad. Having stealth as tool... ok, fine. Stealth was possible before, it is a high skill cap gameplay(compared to other ranger builds), now this is the new toy that makes it more consistent.

So should it do more burst or control? More burst is probably what spear needs to be more useful in general, not just pvp/roaming, but is burst what ranger was missing before? I don't think so. If it get more control or utility, it will be THE forever pvp weapon. If they add just some vigor generation, crippling, might somewhere and call it a day I will be really disappointed. 

I almost think old ranger underwater skills on spear are better than the new one. 
 

[Mystiz.8795]

On 8/22/2024 at 8:25 PM, Pharmacist.5410 said:

It’s performing incredibly well in PvP and WvW for me. Any one who says otherwise is just a matter of personal skill issues. You need to be running a proper build and have a thief like approach to your playstyle.

I'm going to ask the question that no one is asking - Mind sharing this WvW untamed build of yours? I'm seriously keen to try it. Untamed roamers are extremely rare, and from my experience, they're severely handicapped once you kill their pets. This is how I always deal with them, and I'm wondering if you have any way to mitigate this. 

Also, I'm guessing your build is going to be power based and not cele. Is it able to beat the most kittenous builds like cele harbi/ele, willbender, and good thieves? Note that the first three are going to kill your pet very quickly, which is also why I gave up on untamed. 

[SeTect.5918]

8 hours ago, Mystiz.8795 said:

I'm going to ask the question that no one is asking - Mind sharing this WvW untamed build of yours? I'm seriously keen to try it. Untamed roamers are extremely rare, and from my experience, they're severely handicapped once you kill their pets. This is how I always deal with them, and I'm wondering if you have any way to mitigate this. 

Also, I'm guessing your build is going to be power based and not cele. Is it able to beat the most kittenous builds like cele harbi/ele, willbender, and good thieves? Note that the first three are going to kill your pet very quickly, which is also why I gave up on untamed. 

Untamed ambushes in WvW need a buff. I mean the 3rd auto attack literally does as much damage as the ambush. This is actually funny if it wouldnt be so sad.

[Arheundel.6451]

On 8/26/2024 at 5:58 AM, Mystiz.8795 said:

I'm going to ask the question that no one is asking - Mind sharing this WvW untamed build of yours? I'm seriously keen to try it. Untamed roamers are extremely rare, and from my experience, they're severely handicapped once you kill their pets. This is how I always deal with them, and I'm wondering if you have any way to mitigate this. 

Also, I'm guessing your build is going to be power based and not cele. Is it able to beat the most kittenous builds like cele harbi/ele, willbender, and good thieves? Note that the first three are going to kill your pet very quickly, which is also why I gave up on untamed. 

It's a pretty straightforward strategy he's using: spear stealth is used to hide second unleash weapon swap and if they get close spear unleash and skill 2 apply great pressure, even better if you can land spear 4, spear 3 is rather meh/bad, technically that's the only bad skill on spear. Untamed roamers are rare due to lack of mobility compared to SB who can merge with 2 x dashing pets with the addition of GS and druid with stealth/relics. With spear, Untamed is now in the middle, still not suggested for roaming but it comes on top as duellist in dealing with boon cracking builds. With Untamed you need to learn good pet management and regardless you don't lose access to unleash if pet dies so it's not 100% over should they die. Untamed does well against cele willbender at least from my experience, killing those boons against willbender, can quickly turn the fight in your favour, a little less easy against cele eles but still doable. Against cele harbingers, a cele druid is your answer or some mace/mace build with high CC uptime (like using a SB with bird/gazelle) where you can abuse their lack of stability uptime and thieves.....sic'em power sword SB a very good counter otherwise some condi whatever....

That's the thing carrying spear...the stealth, I would consider spear a defensive weapon ...for now

Edited August 27 by Arheundel.6451

[Runechrome.8419]

After having played around with the ranger spear for a while now, I would also like to share my thoughts.

While the stealth mechanic sounded great in theory, in practice it feels restrictive and 'gatekeeps' the abilities. If you want more damage it's great to stealth with #2, but in practice it just feels like I add more cast time with it, and then it feels bad to use when not having stealth up. This issue extends to the other abilities, especially since stealthed #3 has limited use outside of specific PvP / WvW scenarios.

I would consider removing the stealth mechanic and making skill #5 just the throwing net. I think the stealth adds an unnecessary layer on top of the abilities that currently makes the weapon clunky. And I know the stealth in itself can be useful in instances, especially PvP and WvW, but I would appreciate it much more having fluid gameplay with the spear over it having stealth. I could also imagine it would be easier to balance the numbers on it, as there wouldn't be a need for balancing to sets of abilities on it. But I'll try not to delve too much into the numbers of it.

I would like to link to another post, as I think it describes very well that adding a complexity layer on top of the weapon (in this case the stealth abilities) does not necessarily equal to better gameplay. Link to post: More Complexity != Better Gameplay

If the spear needs to delve on a mechanic to diversify it, I would consider keeping #1 and #4 as is, make #5 into just the net, as mentioned before, and then let #2 and #3 flip depending whether we're ranged or melee to further the mechanic of a hybrid melee and ranged weapon. Also, I personally would hope for the leap in #4 to be longer range, as I currently think it feels a bit short.

Other than my concerns with the stealth mechanic, I believe the spear has great potential with some adjustments.

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 8/31/2024 at 3:59 AM, Runechrome.8419 said:

After having played around with the ranger spear for a while now, I would also like to share my thoughts.

While the stealth mechanic sounded great in theory, in practice it feels restrictive and 'gatekeeps' the abilities. If you want more damage it's great to stealth with #2, but in practice it just feels like I add more cast time with it, and then it feels bad to use when not having stealth up. This issue extends to the other abilities, especially since stealthed #3 has limited use outside of specific PvP / WvW scenarios.

I would consider removing the stealth mechanic and making skill #5 just the throwing net. I think the stealth adds an unnecessary layer on top of the abilities that currently makes the weapon clunky. And I know the stealth in itself can be useful in instances, especially PvP and WvW, but I would appreciate it much more having fluid gameplay with the spear over it having stealth. I could also imagine it would be easier to balance the numbers on it, as there wouldn't be a need for balancing to sets of abilities on it. But I'll try not to delve too much into the numbers of it.

I would like to link to another post, as I think it describes very well that adding a complexity layer on top of the weapon (in this case the stealth abilities) does not necessarily equal to better gameplay. Link to post: More Complexity != Better Gameplay

If the spear needs to delve on a mechanic to diversify it, I would consider keeping #1 and #4 as is, make #5 into just the net, as mentioned before, and then let #2 and #3 flip depending whether we're ranged or melee to further the mechanic of a hybrid melee and ranged weapon. Also, I personally would hope for the leap in #4 to be longer range, as I currently think it feels a bit short.

Other than my concerns with the stealth mechanic, I believe the spear has great potential with some adjustments.

Pretty similar to my thoughts and suggestions on it.  I wouldn't mind keeping the stealth, but I'd like to see it removed from its current role as the driver of DPS in the rotation.  That stems from the choice to make non-stealth skills essentially the same as ambush skills, only weaker.  If instead it applied to situational use abilities such as CC or simply changed some aspect of it, we could make the choice to utilize stealth for a specific purpose as needed instead of as a prerequisite for dealing damage any time it's off cooldown.  I also very much like the idea of the ranged/melee hybrid weapon based on distance to the target, where melee is generally more powerful while range is weaker but more versatile.  I think that's a great way to go with spear.

[Arheundel.6451]

On 8/31/2024 at 10:59 AM, Runechrome.8419 said:

After having played around with the ranger spear for a while now, I would also like to share my thoughts.

While the stealth mechanic sounded great in theory, in practice it feels restrictive and 'gatekeeps' the abilities. If you want more damage it's great to stealth with #2, but in practice it just feels like I add more cast time with it, and then it feels bad to use when not having stealth up. This issue extends to the other abilities, especially since stealthed #3 has limited use outside of specific PvP / WvW scenarios.

I would consider removing the stealth mechanic and making skill #5 just the throwing net. I think the stealth adds an unnecessary layer on top of the abilities that currently makes the weapon clunky. And I know the stealth in itself can be useful in instances, especially PvP and WvW, but I would appreciate it much more having fluid gameplay with the spear over it having stealth. I could also imagine it would be easier to balance the numbers on it, as there wouldn't be a need for balancing to sets of abilities on it. But I'll try not to delve too much into the numbers of it.

I would like to link to another post, as I think it describes very well that adding a complexity layer on top of the weapon (in this case the stealth abilities) does not necessarily equal to better gameplay. Link to post: More Complexity != Better Gameplay

If the spear needs to delve on a mechanic to diversify it, I would consider keeping #1 and #4 as is, make #5 into just the net, as mentioned before, and then let #2 and #3 flip depending whether we're ranged or melee to further the mechanic of a hybrid melee and ranged weapon. Also, I personally would hope for the leap in #4 to be longer range, as I currently think it feels a bit short.

Other than my concerns with the stealth mechanic, I believe the spear has great potential with some adjustments.

So removing the only thing that make people even consider taking spear, which is Stealth and leave spear as a pure pve weapon if even....what about NO?? 

You remove stealth from spear and it's a direct "into the trash bin" for everybody but some PvEr who want to RP with spear, to take screenshots

Stealth it's the only defensive mechanic on a 2 handed weapon and you want to replace it with the useless ranged immobilize..

Absolute madness 

Edited September 3 by Arheundel.6451

[Lazze.9870]

If I was gonna do as few changes as possible, I'd make all the stealth attacks the default skills and keep the 5 as it is now with the net as a flipover. But that's mainly becuase the differences between the skills are so miniscule anyway, with the exception of number #3 in WvW. Unblockable piercing without traits or setup skills is a godsend for ranger.

Sure, that removes the gimmick, but the stealth is strong because ranger depends on stealth for power builds. It's not strong because of OP stealth attacks. It's kinda like the maces and their grow mechanic. Why tack on this gimmicky mechanic instead of just giving us good baseline skills?

Edited September 6 by Lazze.9870