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Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Mesmer [Merged]


Rubi Bayer.8493

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44 minutes ago, Maxwell.6127 said:

I maybe a weird one here but in my mind I expected it to be a condi weapon.. I mean they released a dagger which do not provide any condi dmg.. it's only condi due to traits and mechanics not really in it's base is it a condi weapon.. but it's just me.

none of the traits currently have condi synergy with the weapon and none of its attacks currently offer reliable damaging condis, what are you talking about?

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WvW / General Feedback

Role of that weapon is a bit unclear, i expect it to be an melee power AoE weapon. 
For that the cleave could a little higher, currently i think the Greatsword does this way better.

Usually i'd do a 2->5->2->4->F1-> F2 combo.
Issue is while 5 resets 2 you are not positioned correctly and have to run away from the target you ported to. This feels bad.

The biggest problem with positioning in a small scale enviorment is the missing access to swiftness. The spear needs a least to reliably grant swiftness. So you can position your self for Mind the Gap.

The personal leap range of Phantasmal Lancer and the Width of hitting could be wider to make this improve the cleave.

The Ambush is really weak.
 

Animations are beautilful, sadly they make it hard to see other animations. Which can be a huge problem

Edited by Nero.7369
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2 hours ago, sephard.2470 said:

none of the traits currently have condi synergy with the weapon and none of its attacks currently offer reliable damaging condis, what are you talking about?

That's why I said "I expected", it's an illusion of mine.. Also I mentioned "base" meaning built in condi application.. on the weapon itself..

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1 hour ago, Nero.7369 said:

The biggest problem with positioning in a small scale enviorment is the missing access to swiftness. The spear needs a least to reliably grant swiftness. So you can position your self for Mind the Gap.

That would be a step in the right direction, albeit a very small one. While it would be better than nothing, I am a bit worried that ANet will read a suggestion like this and think that's a good middle ground. Personally I don't think it is. Yes swiftness would help at least a little bit, but in my view it would have no meaningfull impact on the viability of the weapon in competitive game modes. Having to hit the outer edge to get THE crucial mechanic of spear just makes it too slow and unreliable. And at that point we haven't even talked about it being fun, which for me is the biggest issue. "Mind the Gap" just feels incredibly unfun to play in competitive.

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This is out of an purely pvp centered persepective,

I really love the the moveset of the new spear it feels really nice to chase enemies down and finally to be able to cast skills without target to fight against stealthing enemies.

The only big issue is the application of clarity in my opinion.
The application of clarity with the mind the gap skill is super unreliable and disrupting the flow on one hand since the spear is designed to rush into mele distance but then you need to try to get away from the enemy to proc it and on the other hand if its getting blocked or dodged you don’t get the buff and cant use it reliably to cleanse conditions or counter cc the enemy with your 5 skill.

Further I dislike the fact that you’re spear skills are so much stronger with clarity and are designed too jump into a fight with them, but you don’t got any way of applying clarity before you get into the fight so in the end you either slowly walk to the fight to get you’re clarity and use you’re beautiful movement skills not really for movement or you´ll basically loose the benefit of the skill to engage.

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I didn't have the chance to really try the mesmer spear because the beta seems to have ended early, but I know that regardless of how strong or fun it is to play, I will be skipping it—and ele spear—if the ground effects (for mesmer, spear 5; for ele, many skills) continue to obscure enemy aoe. Please change these skill effects to be transparent, because doing PvE encounters with this type of effect is very unpleasant.

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After a couple more days of Open World play with all 9 Profs.....

Mesmer Spear is somehow one of the better Spear implementations.  Yet it is not a weapon I can see myself taking as the playstyle of Power Virt and Power Chrono with Spear so far has been uninspiring (I don't bother with Mirage, I haven't touched it since PoF).  Perhaps a change to Clarity application and usage would help but micromanaging melee range and Clarity applications is a tedious and frustrating experience.

With all 9 Profs I find myself asking 'What is Spear doing that compels me to play it?'  At no point did I play a Spear build on any prof and think 'hey this is what I want to play, this is new and fresh, this is exciting'.

Given that Spears is about it for actual changes to gameplay mechanics in this xpac, combined with Homesteads (something I would never ask for in a game) and likely a continuation of their poor story writing since IBS, there is little drawing me to buy this xpac.

In fact the only thing I actually want from the xpac is another Shared Inventory Slot.

 

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3 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

After a couple more days of Open World play with all 9 Profs.....

Mesmer Spear is somehow one of the better Spear implementations.  Yet it is not a weapon I can see myself taking as the playstyle of Power Virt and Power Chrono with Spear so far has been uninspiring (I don't bother with Mirage, I haven't touched it since PoF).  Perhaps a change to Clarity application and usage would help but micromanaging melee range and Clarity applications is a tedious and frustrating experience.

With all 9 Profs I find myself asking 'What is Spear doing that compels me to play it?'  At no point did I play a Spear build on any prof and think 'hey this is what I want to play, this is new and fresh, this is exciting'.

Given that Spears is about it for actual changes to gameplay mechanics in this xpac, combined with Homesteads (something I would never ask for in a game) and likely a continuation of their poor story writing since IBS, there is little drawing me to buy this xpac.

In fact the only thing I actually want from the xpac is another Shared Inventory Slot.

 

with memser, the spear seems to be made for mirage, though boon chrono would love spear do to the fast clone generation.
damage is low, and needs to be buffed for final version, the way they present spear for the expension, doesn't make people exsiting at all.
mechanics for ele are fun at least, but like with mesmer, it just feels so weak.
in terms of beta for the spear.
i can see 55% of the player base, drop the beta, and go back  to their original main.
spear power was to underwelming to be utilized for a beta test.
only those who wan't to pratice future rotation, or check game mechancs with spear, stuck around with it.
for a beta to try and get as mucth information as possible.
the words they heard the most was, make the spear more powerfull with all 9 classes.
not what you want to hear for a beta, 45% of all comments being based on damage output.

i don't know why not more people say this, but i also do understand, cosidering the power of the spec.
mirage ambush damage buff, needs to be longer.
a 1 sec difrends on sharp edges, makes GS impossible to use.
as you needs at least 12 sec for the full burst rotation of GS.
you do 4 times GS 4 in the original rotation, witch is now impossible if you want 100% uptime on the most importand buff mirage got.
you got around 3 sec downtime on your damage buff for mirage.
you can't use a other weapon in your 2 weapons sets in your weapon slots if you want 100% uptime on the buff.

Edited by yoeri.9275
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I feel like the weapon is alright but nothing ground breaking. I like the aoe damage but the range of most skills seem a little too small. 

The ambush is a bit ofna tap out with copying whatever the rifle has but make it damaging condy and damage instead of heal, and still was copied with the old rifle bug where it self interrupted itself.

The cooldowns seemed a bit too long so I'd like to see some similar mechanic to necro where you can reset cooldowns or a way to shave off cooldowns but the visuals were absolutely stunning.

I also feel that making it strictly a power weapon is also a bit harsh, especially when this is going to be our new toy for the next year. 

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8 minutes ago, Gesbo.6420 said:

I feel like the weapon is alright but nothing ground breaking. I like the aoe damage but the range of most skills seem a little too small. 

The ambush is a bit ofna tap out with copying whatever the rifle has but make it damaging condy and damage instead of heal, and still was copied with the old rifle bug where it self interrupted itself.

The cooldowns seemed a bit too long so I'd like to see some similar mechanic to necro where you can reset cooldowns or a way to shave off cooldowns but the visuals were absolutely stunning.

I also feel that making it strictly a power weapon is also a bit harsh, especially when this is going to be our new toy for the next year. 

i have to dissagree.
it would be dagger all over again for mirage.
mostly a power weapon, with ambush being condi, but doing nothing for the mirage.
making the weapons crystal clear a power weapon, is better.
but if it where a condi weapon insted of power, that would have been fine, if it could do insane burn generation.
as condi mesmer, realy needs to shy away from toment and confusion, those 2 are condi mesmers biggest bane.
bleeds will conficlt with virtuosou, and posion isn't a condi for mesmer.
burn works with mirage, as mirage is a dessert dwelling spec
with insane burn generation, you could run axe/tourch spear.

Edited by yoeri.9275
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9 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

That would be a step in the right direction, albeit a very small one. While it would be better than nothing, I am a bit worried that ANet will read a suggestion like this and think that's a good middle ground. Personally I don't think it is. Yes swiftness would help at least a little bit, but in my view it would have no meaningfull impact on the viability of the weapon in competitive game modes. Having to hit the outer edge to get THE crucial mechanic of spear just makes it too slow and unreliable. And at that point we haven't even talked about it being fun, which for me is the biggest issue. "Mind the Gap" just feels incredibly unfun to play in competitive.

Well I thought similar first but as soon as the fights are larger it isn't an issue anymore. And if this will be more an air weapon for larger fights it's imo fine to have drawbacks in smaller fights. 

But I agree that this only helps for the initial hit with MtG. It doesn't help when you use it after skill 5. Dunno maybe if you hit somebody with 5 they should cound for clarity buff always on hit no matter the situation. Imo they have at least to address both problems.

I'd re-evaluate than. While I also didn't find that mechanic fun as well I think having some additional  depth and rewards for doing great could be okayish.

But I wouldn't mind if the mechanic would change completely either.

Edited by Nero.7369
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I’d like to suggest adding the "blade" mechanic to the spear weapon for Mesmer, while traited for the Virtuoso specialization through the Minor Adept Trait "Psychic Blades" as done with the greatsword.

This change is necessary to improve synergy with Virtuoso traits, which are based on blades. Having the spear not considered a "blade" results in blade generation to be inconsistent and slow. The reason for that there is no synergy with Jagged Mind, Bloodsong and the spear since it does not have any bleeding effects. As a result of this, Virtuoso with the spear has a lack of sustain with only Imaginary Inversion have an evade and heal.

  If "blade" mechanic is added to Mind the Gap, Phantasmal Lancer and Mental Collapse, it would improve spear for Virtuoso.

This adjustment won't negatively impact other specializations like Chronomancer and Mirage, as their playstyle don't depend on the "blade" mechanic.

Being in the same situation, sword main-hand and off-hand would also benfit from this tratement. Blurred Frenzy, Blade Leap & Returning Edge, Counter Edge (Illusionary Riposte) and Phantasmal Swordsman would make a good change for Virtuoso in terms of weapons availabilty.

Thanks for considering this suggestion!

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i would do a few reworks as wel.
making the axe more a burning weapon, making ambush spear infict burn.
letting clerity boost ambush burn generation.
making jagged edges trait increace burn damage by 33% and letting auto attacks generate burn stacks, renaming the buff to heated edge.
yes, auto attacks, not spear auto attacks, but all auto attacks.
the biggest problem with condi mirage, is the focus on torment and confusion as the main conditions.
you have proven more than inof, that you can never ballance those 2 conditions.
and mirage, your ballance bane, has both as the main condition.
just replace torment with burining, confusion and burning are still in the theme of a real live mirage.
hot and confusion.
you can keep the standard torment generation of mesmer, cause after you find out you got tricked by the mirage.
your tormented.
but that is the least importand part of a real live mirage.
hot (dessert) confusion (seeing the mirage) tormented (realizing it was a illusion)

Edited by yoeri.9275
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On 6/27/2024 at 10:59 PM, Jojo.6590 said:

Overall, the design team did well on this one. It just needs a handful of changes/touch-ups to make Spear compete with our other weapons for power.

Note my input and suggestions are based on my experiences in pvp/wvw. As someone who does raid weekly, I feel this will do fine eventually in pve given tweaks to numbers and that pvp/wvw have a higher priority in the weapon design/skill kit.

Critical:

·        Gaining clarity is tough in wvw/pvp (minus zerg play). This drastically puts the spear at a disadvantage as it is very noticeable that the weapon skills are lackluster without clarity.  Though skill 5 is the exception to this.

·        Better visual indication for when you have clarity is needed. Both for the Mesmer and those fighting them.

·        Skill 4; Phantasmal Lancer. The phantasms don’t always reach their target or bug out and disappear. This appears to be the same issue that disenchanter and phantasmal defender have. 450 range is low for what feels like is supposed to be an engage skill/gap closer.

·        Ambush buff for 4 seconds is not long enough in pvp/wvw and is not stacking/refreshing.

Suggestions:

·        Gaining clarity; A fix for this could be having skill 2 mind the gap give clarity when it lands as a critical hit thus emphasizing the power theme of the weapon. Another option can be making it so all skills (except the auto chain) give clarity when landing a crit. Or reduce the cooldown on skill 2 to allow more access to get clarity and increase the range of the aoe.

·        Darken the eye visual for clarity floating above the Mesmer.

·        Slight buff to damage on autos and skills 2 and 4.

·        Skill 2 mind the gap. Requiring clarity to gain the 4 might is odd, this requires us to double tap skill 2 then. Mesmer is starved for might outside of great sword. Having this skill remove boons if under clarity would be better. Then have this apply 3-5might when the skill crits.

·        skill 3 Imaginary inversion provides 2-3 stacks of stab on evade. Instead of having the Mesmer spin in place having them move back would be nice as this leaves us stuck when it comes to all the aoe in the game.

·        Skill 4 Phantasmal Lancer brings the range on this to 600-900 should be good.

·        Make spear skills count as blade skills for Virt, minus skill 5.

More aggressive suggestions/skill changes:

·        Make skill 3; Imaginary inversion a disengage instead of an evade/mini distortion. The skill that comes to mind is shadow strike (I know, I always request this). Have it remove/steal 2 boons. (Finally, another weapon to have some boon removal other than great sword and sword. It would be nice to have just a little more as to synergize with our boon removal traits.)

·        A lot of visual clutter in skills 2 mind the gap and 5 mental collapses. Make these a little more transparent.

·        Better visual indication for what counts as the outer ring for mind the gap (currently it appears to be the flower petals.)

 

Final thoughts:

I am attaching my previous input for reference, see above.

Overall, the weapon is a good start but again needs improvements to allow for it to compete with other weapons. All input provided is in addition to my previous input.

 

· Lowering cooldowns (CDs) on all the weapon skills while having skill 4 Phantasmal Lancer reset skill 2 Mind the Gap’s CD. Provide might generation on the other skills and not just on the auto chain and on the empowered version of skill 2 Mind the Gap.

·        Clarity’s impact on the weapon kit is massive as the skills are much less effective without clarity. It may be best to make the empowered versions of the skills baseline and then when you have clarity make the next skill used (ambush, 4, or 5) unblockable or crit, increased damage, ect. While for skill three increase the evade uptime, heal, and cleanse while also providing boons (might, fury, stab).

·        Skill 2 mind the gap; CD to 5 seconds. Lower base damage while making the skill unblockable.

·        Make skill 3 Imaginary inversion a disengage instead of an evade/mini distortion. Have the Mesmer leap back or to the side while evading. This allows for us to better fight with classes that use a lot of AOE. Make the condi clear baseline. Have the skill provide might, fury, and stab when empowered.

·        I am repeating this here because this is important. Skill 4 Phantasmal Lancer needs an increased range of 800-1200. Make it on Par with Necro’s Spear skill 4 Isolate. This skill is 1,200 range, applies chill, unblockable, and flips into Distress which teleports at 1200 while reducing the recharge.

·        Skill 4 Phantasmal Lancer and skill 5 Mental Collapse provide evade frames or reduce cast time as these are way too easy to interrupt/avoid leaving the Mesmer extremely vulnerable.

·        Skill 5 Mental Collapse. If making the empowered versions baseline, reduce the stun to 1 second. Also, note there is a decent delay in when the Mesmer teleports to their target and when the stun and damage are applied. This makes it very easy to evade out of the AOE and avoid the stun and damage. Not sure if this is intended or a bug/issue with the animation/skill.

Edited by Jojo.6590
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We give detailed feedback only because we know there’s no way in hell they’ll ever delete Clarity. But deleting Clarity and make everything baseline is exactly what Mesmer Spear needs.

I don’t fcking understand why every time they introduce a new weapon, they have to bend themselves backward trying to cramp in a random gimmick. What’s even wrong with a good old-fashioned simple bonk stick? Press button, it does damage, that’s it. Simplicity is a kind of beauty too.

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11 minutes ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

We give detailed feedback only because we know there’s no way in hell they’ll ever delete Clarity. But deleting Clarity and make everything baseline is exactly what Mesmer Spear needs.

I don’t fcking understand why every time they introduce a new weapon, they have to bend themselves backward trying to cramp in a random gimmick. What’s even wrong with a good old-fashioned simple bonk stick? Press button, it does damage, that’s it. Simplicity is a kind of beauty too.

If they did this they’d have to nerf it lol, it’s not balanced to have full effects on every ability press. 

for mind the gap itself, I don’t think it’s a problem really, can’t say I ever struggled to get this thing to proc or had to pay that much attention to push its effects. 

Warrior got the exact description you give and it’s caused uproar several times the size of this, that could be why lol. People seem to get real mad when there isn’t some form of mechanic behind the weapon, 

imho, the additional mechanics seem fine to me, their pretty kitten simple, they don’t require a lot of maintenance and overall just add a small twist on 1 or 2 things. 

simplicity is beauty, in a game that demands difficulty, in gw2 the games so easy the complexity has to be player sided lol. You can’t have a bonk stick in the same game that majority of the difficult content is also a DPS golem. 

I don’t think clarity is that bad really, mind the gap is fun and outside of that one detail that requires little planning I think the weapons very simple to really use, 

each to their own however haha

Edited by Purple Effects.2503
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10 hours ago, Albiero.2658 said:

I’d like to suggest adding the "blade" mechanic to the spear weapon for Mesmer, while traited for the Virtuoso specialization through the Minor Adept Trait "Psychic Blades" as done with the greatsword.

This change is necessary to improve synergy with Virtuoso traits, which are based on blades. Having the spear not considered a "blade" results in blade generation to be inconsistent and slow. The reason for that there is no synergy with Jagged Mind, Bloodsong and the spear since it does not have any bleeding effects. As a result of this, Virtuoso with the spear has a lack of sustain with only Imaginary Inversion have an evade and heal.

  If "blade" mechanic is added to Mind the Gap, Phantasmal Lancer and Mental Collapse, it would improve spear for Virtuoso.

This adjustment won't negatively impact other specializations like Chronomancer and Mirage, as their playstyle don't depend on the "blade" mechanic.

Being in the same situation, sword main-hand and off-hand would also benfit from this tratement. Blurred Frenzy, Blade Leap & Returning Edge, Counter Edge (Illusionary Riposte) and Phantasmal Swordsman would make a good change for Virtuoso in terms of weapons availabilty.

Thanks for considering this suggestion!

That sounds like you want to make Spear for Condivirtuoso? I don't think that'll work since dagger skills hit multiple times and much faster than the spear skills ever will. For Powervirtuoso the damage buff of blades would definately be there, but if the spear has good dps alone, that should be enough considering all the other blade skills you use that are already buffed by that. And blade skills don't matter for powervirtuoso blade generation.

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I really like the skill animations, even Auto-Attack looks awesome!

Bugs: 

Empowered Illusions trait does not increase Phantasm Skill-Damage. At least it does not show up in the tooltip.

 

What should change in general:

- Spear Skills should be Blade Skills (the same is true for Sword, Off-Hand Sword and Underwater Spear).

- Damage seems pretty low. Most other classes will out-pressure you in melee. Easily.

- Spear needs more defensive options / mechanics. I mostly tested it in WvW. For Spear to deal any notable damage at all, you need to go full glass-cannon. But without an additional defensive option on the weapon, you can't afford to stay in melee for long. This caused a "hit-and-run", bursty, thief-like playstyle, which felt like a one-trick pony.

- Spear should be a brawly melee weapon. For that, Mesmers need to actually be able to survive melee for more than a few seconds. (Note that Willbender and Elementalist can fight in melee, even outnumbered, and don't have any problem at all)

- In WvW, using Spear creates a dilemma. Since it's completely melee focused, you need a ranged weapon on the other weapon set (or else the enemy will just merrily walk away and laugh). This boils down to Greatsword (which leaves you with no defensive skills at all) or Dagger + Shield/Sword/Torch/Focus, none of which are ideal.

 

Skill-by-Skill Improvements:

Auto-Attack: Feels a bit slow and also low on damage output. Also, it's really difficult to hit moving targets. Increasing the range of this skill would really help!

Ambush-Skill: This skill is having some issues with hitting its targets. Don't know why.

Skill #2, Mind the Gap: As many have already said before, the mechanic looked cool in the livestream on stationary golems, but against moving targets in this fast-paced combat meta, it's more or less a gamble to hit anything at the right distance. Also, the anti-synergy range-issue with Skill #5 made the playstyle rather clunky.

Skill #3, Imaginary Inversion: Since this is the only defensive skill on the weapon, it should do a little more. It could also provide a little knock-back to enemys in melee range, so that they are in range for Mind the Gap. Or let it heal more. Or increase the invuln-duration. Anything helps.

Skill #4, Phantasmal Lancer: I had a really hard time hitting anyone with this. And even when I did, the Phantasms rarely connected. I like the overall mechanic, though. But it desperately needs range-increases for both, Mesmer and Phantasms. This skill should also have a small evade-window.

Skill #5, Mental Collapse: Main issue with this skill is that, since it has the longest range, it encourages you to use it as an opener. But this would mean you "miss out" on the Skill #2 recharge. Also, casting Mental Collapse without Clarity seems pretty underwhelming so far. I suggest swapping the range of Skill #4 und #5. 

 

All-in-all, Spear provides Mesmer with things it has been lacking since release (aoe dmg without targets, etc.), but I feel it's not quite able to fill the role of a melee weapon yet (lack of defense, mostly).

 

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Feedback from the beta:

  • Overall, very nice weapon for mesmer, I can see myself trading greatsword in for this for open world.
  • Mind the gap, it's very difficult to understand the radius, I would like a simpler animation with some buildup and clear visual indicator whether or not it is in that outer range. Warrior hammer has a very good visual que when the attack hits, and where it hits. Another example, in League of Legends, Darius has a similar attack with visual feedback what the area is that you want to hit with. Contrast to that, Mind the gap feels very floaty. It is basically a skillshot, without any indicator.
  • Skill retargeting does not work with #4 and #5
    • #4, when you retarget, you still hit your target, but the phantasms don't spawn
    • #5, skill retargeting does not seem to do anything here
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  • Forum Moderator.3419 changed the title to Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Mesmer [Merged]

Well, I guess i'll also do a final thoughts post, now that I have more experience with spear and had time to think about other peoples comments.

I think there is a lot to like about the weapon, with its amazing animations and two mobility skills. The main issues for me remain that "Mind the Gap" feels incredibly unfun and too much of spears power is hidden behind clarity.

For me the best suggestions from this thread are:

  • make skill #2 always give clarity, not just on the outer ring
  • make skill #3 a backwards disengage (if Mind the Gap stays as it is, ideally putting you in perfect clarity range)
  • increase the range of skill #4 to at least 600
  • give evade frames to skill #4 and #5
  • give the following skills a weaker version of the clarity bonus as basline
    • skill #2: many might stacks with clarity, fewer without
    • skill #3: big cleanse with clarity, small cleanse without
    • skill #5: big stun with clarity and short daze without

While all of these suggestions fix an important desgin issue in my view, reading through this thread, the big take away should be that "Mind the Gap" is an unfun mechanic that should not make it into the live game. A close second for me would be that too much power is hidden behind clarity, even if concern number one is fixed.

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