Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Elementalist

[Josspai.4356]

¿What's the point in Weaver Dual Attacks with spear?

Dual Attacks are Weaver identity and fantasy, but on spear they're more like 'hey, don't bother, here you go, get immediate access to the next element with some minor effect that you probably don't even need right now'.

If I wanted to have instant access to every skill of an element, I'd use Unravel or just pretty much play as Tempest, Catalyst or Core Ele. 😕

Edit: I mean, spear was originally an underwater weapon, so if they're feeling uninspired, they could just take trident Dual Attacks as an inspiration, since those are 1200 Range.

Edited June 28 by Josspai.4356
additional idea

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

i'll quote myself from another thread and add to it, quoting to not retype it all:

5 hours ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

the etching system is very clunky and hard to use...

5 seconds of the etching is reasonable only to CHARGE the flip-over skill, but not to USE it. only enough time to either use the uncharged skill, OR to charge it. once the skill is charged, it needs additional time added to the clock. the base time needs to increase to make it functional. (most flip skills get longer duration)

the autoattacks are pure garbage. first, they only hit one target. second, there's no piercing, so the target might not even get hit because of other enemies getting in the way. third, they do less damage than staff auttoattacks, and staff attoattacks hit more targets. and staff is a SUPPORT weapon. fourth, they're really slow, both in cast time, and travel to target.

if this is supposed to be a glass canon, you got the glass part right, but the cannon part feels more like a wet noodle, compared to the other weapons in ele kit, which all hit a lot harder, AND are easier to use.

PS: very big MISSED OPPORTUNITY here, ele could use the old GW1 mechanic: If blocked, does damage. the mechanic was attached to skills like Glass Arrow, and this mechanic would be great on ele long ranged glass cannon weapon (i originally suggested this as part of 1500 range ele longbow skills)

 

3 hours ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

an additional note: spear air 2 (Fulgor) tooltip says it's supposed to do 1024 damage per hit (with beta exotic marauder gear) but actually ONLY does 502 damage per hit... there are so many bugs in the coding of spear damage that it feels like a level 65 weapon instead of a level 80 weapon. 

it really feels like the PvE numbers should be WvW numbers, and the PvE numbers need to be at least double (edit: in PvE). right now, the "glass cannon" spear can't even compete with the support oriented staff.

it's no fun in WvW when my biggest crit is less than 6000 (with full might stacks) while auto attacks (with full might stacks) crit at 1k, , and i'm constantly taking 8k, 9k hits from other spears, and sometimes 16-17k crits from warrior burst skills.

this weapon really feels like a nerf dart when everyone else has vulcan gatling guns

i need to add that in WvW, since it's so difficult to make the skills hit, they really need to do more damage to feel like a cannon.

twister (air 4) needs better timing on it's animation, as the float extends way beyond the end of the animation.

i agree that Fulgor needs way more damage, as autoattacks deal more damage than the DoT... and my opinion of the autos is that they're junk for being single target, no piercing. and compared to staff autos. so Fulger needs to actually be dangerous. the enemy almost has to choose to stand in it to take the damage, so make it actually punish the enemy for standing in it instead of tickling... 500 damage per second over 10 seconds means nothing in a competitive environment. i forgot to mention that this is the damage against NPCs in WvW, not players. and NPCs in WvW generally take double damage compared to players.

the "inner circle" skills need to hit harder, too, because they are also more difficult to land in WvW environment, where the enemy is constantly moving.

since the 5 skills need so much work to charge them, they should do minimum 10k hits to targets in WvW. because setup for other classes NON glass canon skills do 15k

in WvW, i can't even duel with the weapon, as a single movement skill puts the enemy into melee, and their melee skills kill me within a second or two while i'm CC'd

[PixeLpics.8017]

Do you have a good build yo try new weapon ? Im a noob theorycrafter, lol. 

[the krytan assassin.9235]

For the instanced PvE perspective:

since pretty much all skills in all attunements are better then AA's+have quite some cd's it is heavily incentivized to do a 4 attument rotation cycle. On top of that the requirement for the etching means you basically want to instantly proc all skills. on top of that the cd's of your etchings are 25 sec resulting in a big dps loss whenever you go out of your attunement cycle. This means that the class basically has 0 on demand utility. 

The skillset for each attunement feels very bland since basically every single skill does exactly the same in each attunement, dps output is in its current state also very low

The visuals look cool, but provide way to much visual clutter.

The cd's on the etchings are abit to long, doing a normal 4 attunement rotation in weaver/cata results in alot of downtime in your rotation. Ripple can partially solve this issue, but having a 600 dash immediatly followed up by either a cone attack that you manually aim or a new etching (locking you out of position of the group) feels really bad. Also the traveling distance greatly increases whenever you have superspeed on (skill becomes more like a 1200 range insta teleport) which makes it impossible to use on alot of encounters. 

There is a severe lack of synergy with some traits/espec mechanics. Persisting flames doesn't give any bonus right now and there's no alternative for the grandmaster fire traitline. The dual attacks in weaver don't proc weakness in superior elements and earth 4 is not giving sufficient weakness uptime either making the crit uptime less reliable. The weaver kinda feels like playing core ele with some extra annoying mechanics since you basically want to insta dual attune on every swap. Catalyst lacks proper energy management with spear skills (there are very little multihit skills)

Tempest seems kinda decent. the cd's on the spear flow relatively well with the cd's on overload when using transcendent tempest. Having overloads on melee range however feels kinda sad, sort of negating the purpose of a ranged weapon. Overload air post balance patch still feels abit weak to use, but not as atrocious as it used to be, please bring overload fire to atleast the same dps output as air so we can atleast do a dual overload rotation without having absolute kitten dps output for 4s every 20s. 

I think the main issue with ele and the new weapon proficiency release from soto & janthir wilds is that weaver and catalyst (+hammer) simply have quite alot of rules to follow in order for the especs to properly work (energy, dual attuning, EE stacks). Adding weapons with new mechanics added into it, only works aslong aslong as these mechanics don't interfere with the already established ruleset of the especs. It's the same reason why pistol is horrible for cata (condi weapon with espec that uses spheres that only deal power dmge & a lack of hits/sec) and for weaver (very confusing bullet mechanic when used while weaving attunements). 
i honestly had the most fun with spear while playing core ele (fire/air/water) since it felt like having the least amount of extra restrictions which is kinda sad imo

Edited June 28 by the krytan assassin.9235

[Amadeus.1328]

We need a different graph for each attunement. Fire is a circle, and the rest is a line.

We should have Earth and Fire as circle graph, Water, Air as a line graph.

Also, is unleashing full stack etching lacking impact or excitement?
I don't know if you guys got what I am saying, but fire lesser volcano low stack or full stack is not feeling much different in impact only in the size of the graph and the skill.

Same with every attunement, lacking the impact and the difference in impact between a full stack or no stack at all.

Another thing is that a volcano's initial eruption does not cause damage, but the little small meteors from it do the damage. I prefer the initial damage from the volcano to do little damage then the small meteors continues.

I suggest Derecho full stack to do the same sound effect of Hammer's air 4th skill and to push us backward.

The air 3rd skill feels so useless since we are going to run full berserk and we will always crit anyway, we might need something like the cooldown of the next spear skill is reduced. 

The water 3rd skill should convert the upcoming 3 hits to heal or immune for 2 seconds?

The etching mechanic does not work well with how Elementalist had to move from one attunement to another and it feels very weird especially with Weaver.

Give etching more depth and made it work with attunement much smoother, for example.

Like one circle for all attunement and keep it active as long as you are above it.
Using 3 skills from the attunement ( auto attacks counts ) will stack one part of the circle and you can unleash it whenever you want to deal damage depend on the current active attunement.
You gain boons and applying debuff from the on-going active attunement by using skills on top the circle. ( Enemies have to be on top of the circle to get the debuff which put Ele on High Risk, High Reward play style )
Swapping attunement won't remove the etching but you will start over the stacking because of the new attunement but the old stacking will stay as long as you did not unleash the etching.

Either made the etching 10 - 15 seconds but smaller Or  I recommend to make the etching only 7 seconds and you can increase the duration from using skills inside the circle.
which pushing the player being more aggressive with glass cannon weapon.

Reduce the cooldown of etching depend on the above, if we have 10 - 15 seconds then keep it 20 seconds if it is going to be 7 seconds and increase with each casting skills then make it 30 seconds to be more punishing for players missing up the mini-game.

This as far as i think what would make spear very interesting a part of the other weapons in my opinion.

[CETheLucid.3964]

The instant cast Weaver skills are a real treat for ele spear. They work with the weapon very well. Otherwise I feel like I practically need to slot Arcane Blast or some other instant cast utility I can spam to reliably get the full power attack. In this scenario their simplicity is a blessing. Also frees up the Fresh Air slot in PvE so that's nice.

I joked about Trig seeming to have a hard time getting the full circle charge during the live stream and now I know why.

The etchings should last a few more seconds for the sake of other setups that aren't Weaver. Otherwise I don't have much else to add given the limited hours. It's a great weapon from my experience. It's the ranged DPS weapon lots of elementalists were asking for, but a spear.

The range is a blessing even if you are going to be playing it pretty close in most instances if you have any sense.

[zeyeti.8347]

Improve the duration of the all skill 5 , or add another 2-3 secs when it's charged , i know we can use utility skills to charge it up , but c'mon i don't think ppl will be happy spamming arcane skills.

sidenote for myself , but could you do a quote for the character "saying haboob incoming" when charging earth and "unleash the haboob" when launching , i swear if something like that happen i will never leave neither spear neither ele (i am serious ! ... euh maybe not...)

[Anela.3867]

You said this was a glass cannon. It's definitely glass but NOT a cannon. The damage doesn't make up for how fragile it is. 

[DaKillaOfHell.5907]

Sadly, they repeat the same mistake as with pistol again.

 

Instead of thinking about how to integrate the weapon with available mechanics, they switch to a completely new mechanic adding another 1 to the n broken mechanics of elementalist making it a far worse choice than some at least decent weapons.

Basically, it has potential as a weapon (yes), but just feels lackluster due to some serious design mistakes:

 

1.) The 5 skill should not provide a combo field by itself when, for example, you play as tempest or catalyst. The effect is just over the top and overlaps any other effect, therefore very problematic in any kind of scenario where overview is necessary.

 

2.) The weaver skills need a total redesign. Just providing lackluster buffs while not doing any damage is just the worst of all worlds together.

 

3.) The numbers have to be tuned a lot, right now, it is only a bit better than pistol but overall still very weak.

 

[origin.1496]

1 hour ago, Anela.3867 said:

You said this was a glass cannon. It's definitely glass but NOT a cannon. The damage doesn't make up for how fragile it is. 

Echoing this statement, you definitely feel like glass, but the cannon is not there to compensate. That being said, the general consensus on the forums indicates that most professions and their spears are weak. Perhaps this was intentional instead of being over-tuned? If this was the case, I could understand that.

Some other thoughts:

1. Can the Etch circle be an enchantment of sorts and just follow you, and not be a huge blinding mechanic blocker? Let it look like and function similarly to Herald's utility and facet VFX under them. Shrink the etch to this size to still appreciate the work put into it and let it follow us?

2. Mentioned every other post and following up on my above comment, etch is way too short and the cooldowns are too long. 1 CC and you're out. Making it more of a personal buff and enchantment that follows you would make the playstyle feel so fluid.

3. I want to praise ANet on being accurate to what the final etch skills do in nature. You can tell the team put in some thought in the weapon's concept. Etch in earth, air and water are straight-lined storms or events for the most part. Coming from a natural POV, air, water and earth etch skills make sense, but the Derecho and Haboob are both missing the secondary effects these storms leave behind. For example, Derecho is a massive straight-lined lingering wind storm, and not some one-and-done event. A Derecho, like a Haboob, both leave behind long-lived storms in addition to it's initial impact. Maybe Derecho and Haboob should also leave behind a pulsing lightning and dust storm aoe, respectively. Jökulhlaup makes sense, but the width is tiny. Easy to strafe away from it. And finally a volcanic eruption should be exactly that- an eruption. Maybe add an initial explosion when it goes off?

4. The spear is FUN.

Edited June 28 by origin.1496

[ippy.9048]

Everyone seems to be really demanding... The spear is truly cool.

Magic circle construction time: It might be borderline, but making it any longer would make it too easy. If we could always fire at full power, it would be boring. Idle motion: It's the best. Please don't change it. Combination with elite specs: I hope the combination with elite specs will be adjusted gradually. I'd like to avoid having traits that are completely ineffective if possible.

I don't think at all like the hardcore players who say things like, "I want every new weapon to be the best compared to others," or "If you're going to use this spear, you might as well use a staff, it lacks differentiation."

Are people seriously saying there's no point in adding weapons that can't top the benchmarks? Thank you, Anet. Please keep up the good work.

[Mascarun.7910]

16 minutes ago, Mascarun.7910 said:

In my opinion, etchings should:

-Pulse damage (spear has no way of maintaining persisting flames)

-Have zero cast time (etchings can interrupt overloads, which sucks)

-Automatically execute after the timer is up (the 3 skill activation requirement is not really that interesting nor flexible)

-Have some sort of delay before you can use the flip skill (holding 5 for a bit too long wastes the skill on the weak version of the flip)

Further critiques:

-Skill 3 does not provide weakness for weaver's superior elements trait (even just 1 pulse of 1 damage would help)

-Autoattacks. My grandmother can autoattack for more than what elementalist can with spear (not that autoattacks were ever a strong point for ele, but sceptre and sword have much better autoattacks, especially if you are a tempest waiting for overload air)

-Autoattacks, again. To repeat what everyone has been saying, AAs have 0 aoe or pierce; anet truly does not put any effort into making them useful or distinct for elementalist.

-Fulgor does not crit

-Multihit attacks for energy generation for catalyst? Where are they?

-Fire 3 (and possibly Air 3? haven't personally confirmed) can be consumed by auto attack. Why?

 

It's really awkward to make use of this weapon on tempest, what I hope to play spear on. It seems like this spear has a "good" concept, yet in practice it works against the elite ele specs, making it rather clunky. As a tempest, I want to constantly swap into and out of Air to use overload air. Do you think I want to spent any long amount of time preparing an etching under the current system? If Anet wants to give players this fantasy of "big nuke caster", then I pray that they seriously reconsider the above points. Again, it would be really cool if i could just have the etching skills of any element go off as I'm overloading air. 

My opinion from another thread. To add to that: one major concept of elementalist weapons is the fact that swapping attunements doesn't interrupt your weaponskills from a different attunement. However, this concept goes out the window with spear, given that the 5 can only be reactivated if you STAY in the same attunement. I find that this lacks coherence and interrupts the usual ele rotation flow.

[Ragnarox.9601]

Weapon dmg is low even with berserker

5th skill need to last 3 sec more

Air 2...bugged? Nothing is happening if i put it on the enemy at least it could drop some spears from that cloud. ( I wish that this is skill is like lightning spears coming down from that cloud now its just meh, misses almost in 90% cases.)

It looks promising but it lacks lots of stuff. So far its lower than pistol, I would say pistol 2.0.

Edited June 28 by Ragnarox.9601

[ippy.9048]

It seems like we're seeing completely different things if you think this weapon is inferior to the pistol. Saying it needs to last three seconds longer makes me worry that it might not be suited for playing an Elementalist. This class is designed for busy key touches, you know? Why do people want to make things easier and easier?

[Azhkanizkael.1406]

Feedback:

• It feels bad, like really bad, that the AOE etchings don't give their buffs to allies.
• No healing from water, No stab from earth, No fury from air, No might from fire To anyone except yourself.
• Being able to accidentally cancel skills feels bad, especially when they go on full cooldown after being accidentally cancelled by trying to queue up the next skill.
• Auto Attacks should NOT consume buffs from skill 3.
• The etchings only feel good if you've got quickness, they really do need more duration.
• Can we view what the flip skills (Charged and Uncharged) of the etchings do without having to charge them up? We shouldn't have to take a screenshot of the skill to know what it does.
• The small aoes need to be a little bit larger
• Etching Volcano needs to not take 1.5 seconds to start doing damage after a 0.75 second cast time. - make it start immediately after casting it.
• Etching Volcano minimum damage being 0.5% damage is bad, the minimum damage it should land would be better left at 50%.

Edited June 28 by Azhkanizkael.1406
added more info

[origin.1496]

23 minutes ago, ippy.9048 said:

It seems like we're seeing completely different things if you think this weapon is inferior to the pistol. Saying it needs to last three seconds longer makes me worry that it might not be suited for playing an Elementalist. This class is designed for busy key touches, you know? Why do people want to make things easier and easier?

Because spear *is* inferior to pistol. Unlike spear, pistol melts it's intended target behind a complicated rotation. From an endgame POV every other profession can achieve a similar or higher benchmark with minimal effort and have way more utility in their kit. This is applied to most ele elite specs and weapons. You miss one button press and it becomes incredibly hard to get back in sync with a rotation. Ele has to jump through hoops to achieve that benchmark, and often times when we do, we get nerfed. We don't need ANOTHER piano play-style to achieve a fraction of what other classes can do for numbers and with a lack of real group utility.
Open world? Spear rocks. End game content? Spear is a massive rotating wheel that deals the same damage as a cVirt auto attacking.
So no, we do not need nor want another complicated weapon.

[ippy.9048]

Yes, so I really understand now that people like different aspects. I understand that we might not see eye to eye. I want to play in a piano-style manner with the spear as well.

However, I will provide feedback with some improvements in mind without making it easier.

 

The issue with Element Swap not working: When switching elements, the magic circle should switch to match the element. If it doesn't, it hinders the fundamental playstyle of an Elementalist, which is to switch elements.

The issue with the maximum power state of non-fire #5 skills being too dull: All #5 skills should be circular explosions like the fire #5. As it stands, it's stronger not to include #5 in the rotation at all. Continuously using the fire AA is the best move. Line skills are meant to be used in close combat, not as long-range artillery skills.

 

 

This might be difficult, but my personal ideal would be for the magic circle to rotate around the Elementalist. The magic circles from Dragon Quest are a good reference. These circles would be canceled if you receive a daze. Conversely, if you don't get dazed, the magic circle increases and charges up to the third stage.

This idea maintains difficulty while adding a sense of grandeur.

 

I lOVE ELE. THANKS ANET.

[Kris Knives.8513]

1 hour ago, Mascarun.7910 said:

My opinion from another thread. To add to that: one major concept of elementalist weapons is the fact that swapping attunements doesn't interrupt your weaponskills from a different attunement. However, this concept goes out the window with spear, given that the 5 can only be reactivated if you STAY in the same attunement. I find that this lacks coherence and interrupts the usual ele rotation flow.

Tempest already wants you to linger on an attunement so I don't think there isn't any space for that gameplay.  It is odd though since Tempest, whom would seemingly work will with this mechanics, doesn't over all synergize well with a long range glass cannon weapon.

[IIIxVxIII.2135]

I find that ground targeting for a lot of the skills is unnecessary. Skill 2 and skill 4 on any element should not be targeted. Skill 4 should act similar to scepter fire 2.

Also I think either the damage numbers need to be buffed or the weapon needs more utility. Right now neither feel adequate.

[Sarm.5923]

Admittedly I'm not a good player, but spitballing a random thought: Does the etching really need a duration at all? You're already imposing a limitation / expectation on the player to remain in a specific spot in order to power it up. It doesn't sound like there's any desire or benefit for using the lesser version anyway, so if you make it as long as its cooldown, you can still have skill expression in how quickly a player can flip the etching without imposing as much of a binary pass/fail for running out of time.

[Shaman.2034]

2 hours ago, ippy.9048 said:

Are people seriously saying there's no point in adding weapons that can't top the benchmarks?

Um, no, that's not what people are saying. You seem to be taking negative feedback as a personal attack against your opinions. We all think spear is cool too, but the fact is that it sucks in its current state. Don't worry, it will still be cool if it gets buffed.

Not every weapon needs to top the benchmarks. Spear does need to top the benchmarks, because it is explicitly designed to be a selfish glass cannon with almost no defensive or utility skills. It has nothing to do with it being a new weapon, and everything to do with its role. It is not achieving its role.

[Shelph.6501]

I would love to see a bit more team utility on this spear.
I think with a weaver spear build it feels like it doesnt give a single boon to anyone in your group, and the other specs aren't much better. Ele doesn't have great utility on it utility skills and it needs them for dps. The weapon needs some utility to make it really succeed in pugs and open world, and so that when I see a spear ele join my group I am happy.
There are lots of ways they could get utility, like a group aegis, group cleanse 1 condi, boon extension, projectile reflect, remove 1 boon from enemy, very minor group heals in water, a partial res, group swiftness/super speed, or a 10 man stunbreak ;).
As an ele main, I feel like I am starving for ways to help my group on a dps build. Even as someone who plays ele because I prefer melee combat, if this weapon actually has the utility that ele desperately needs I would excited to play it.

 

Edited June 28 by Shelph.6501

[Antycypator.9874]

I feel like Ele spear in PvE is designed purely for instanced combat. It's incredibly clunky without quickness/alacrity, so forget about smooth combat while playing solo.

[fuzzyp.6295]

Boring weapon that hits like a noodle at range and forces camping and spamming for any decent pay off. I played of full marauders in WvW and still felt limp.

Etchings need to last longer or have some sort of persisting mechanic (ex: I drop a fire etching but swap to water and the etching automatically changes to water for the water finisher)... Making them last longer is the best and easiest solution, as I think the whole camping attunement thing is just a l2p change in mindset issue.

 

Ironically the bugged Ripple dash is the only thing keeping me alive in WvW 

Why is Haboob's etching a dark field and not a smoke field? Disappearing into a sand storm is literally right there. I know this weapon isn't meant to have much survivability but it's perfect synergy.

The whole inner/outer effects on spells is dumb. Either scrap it or increase the benefits of hitting with the outer ring and make the small sweet spot really devastating.

Nothing so far spear offers has convinced me to purchases JW. Really sad if this is the first expac since Factions I'm not hyped over.

 

Hope you make some major changes to the weapon.

[Kris Knives.8513]

I'll just say I personally really enjoyed elementalist spear.  I agree with the critique it doesn't slot cleanly into any elite spec but that didn't bother me personally and spear was both beautiful and fun.  My top weapon by far.  Small tweaks aside for balance, such as giving crits to air skills and adjusting some number or boons, I think it is a great concept largely well executed and am excited to play with it more.

I'm a bit wary of changing the etchings too much.  I like it is a risk reward mechanics and I wouldn't want it to be made so easy and consistent that is feels risk free and then gets nerfed making the mechanic meaningless.  I'd prefer it to be challenging and impactful, though some visual feedback before we loose our etching widow would be very much appreciated. 

Perhaps a compromise could be that you can extend the duration of etching through some secondary mechanic rather than flatly increasing it durration?  Like if you use Etching at full health or something like that it has a bonus 2 second duration or whenever you land a crit while in that attunement it extends the duration up to 10 seconds.  Something like that so if you really want to make sure you land the etching you can stack the odds if your favor or just drop an etching as is and race to charge it in the original 5 second window before flipping to your next element.