WvW restructuring, negative consequences

[niteskate.3641]

Hope the devs get good feedback about WvW restructuring.

Here my take as ex-Desolation and now Melandru's Dome:

- The Desolation community is practically gone. Not really a user-friendly approach for a multi-player game.

- Guild size of 500 wasn't enough to keep the Desolation community together.

- Melandru's Dome more or less permanently outnumbered, so no fun to play. Balance issue. We had less than half the score as out matched opponent groups.

- Roaming more difficult, because of the high emphasis of very active, well organized groups. Where is the place for a player who does take part in organized voice groups, but also plays casually and/or as a roamer?

- General impression: The new system cannot match groups AND different playstyles well. In its current state, the new system threatens to alienate certain groups of WvW players.

Maybe others can report feedback, too. In case the devs read this, I hope we can provide feedback in a way which they can verify by reading logs, etc.

[SheepSeesYou.4690]

Drastically seconded. There's no fun to WvW anymore. The commanders that I knew are now all on different teams and the former-server mega-guilds don't offer the same security. If a guild leader doesn't like you? Boom, you're gone. The entire community you were playing with is gone.

Not to mention that casual play is effectively dead now. There's not a way to play solo roam or even smaller group roaming anymore, and thanks to the upcoming points changes any off-peak play is further penalized.

This was a good intentioned and horribly implemented idea, and I hope they get rid of it soon.

[Chaba.5410]

9 hours ago, SheepSeesYou.4690 said:

The commanders that I knew are now all on different teams

I still don't understand the idea of not joining your favorite commander's guild.

[Reina.1729]

Totally second this. WvW is in a strange state.

[Shadowsrb.6241]

well that was whole point of this, to kill old names and replace with new one...nothing else is done here, one day job...u have separate excel table to change wvw server instead of login excel table to select world. idk why they replace old server names, just to call it new feature?
What is alliance, ppl/guilds were switching servers before, some do it every week...how is this different, now its easier to switch server?
Is now guild, owner of the server or its anet,50ppl can go afk on strongest server and they cant login...which will be the case, as it is when u have big guilds que become unplayable. It is pretty simple problem, to give some purpose to guilds and anet destroy complete game to make something...same, but with different names, against mmo-rpg philosophy. Suddenly Wvw should be like job you had to apply your cv to guild leader so if he accept you can play on that server, they will select role and type of play you must play...I don't get it, instead of creating some separate competitions, war events...they waste time with changing server names. Why was this taking years...implementing blabla,if they keep old server names it would be same as it was...idk

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Shadowsrb.6241 said:

well that was whole point of this, to kill old names and replace with new one...nothing else is done here, one day job...u have separate excel table to change wvw server instead of login excel table to select world. idk why they replace old server names, just to call it new feature?

idk because they changed the underlaying system? 

But granted if you weren't just joking and that was the case then all the complaints on the forums about WR would be absolutely hilarious. 

[Exxcalibur.6203]

On 7/13/2024 at 4:10 PM, Chaba.5410 said:

I still don't understand the idea of not joining your favorite commander's guild.

Because  there are loads of us, who, as massive introverts / austisitc, almost vomit at the concept of being officialyl in a group.  HOnestly makes mes sick to the stomach. Have no fav comms anyway, prefer wandering with randoms. 

 

Amazingly, not everyone is like you nor wants what you want. 

[NaramSin.2693]

On 7/12/2024 at 10:10 PM, SheepSeesYou.4690 said:

This was a good intentioned and horribly implemented idea, and I hope they get rid of it soon.

I Agree but they will not do it soon, they need time to understand all the errors and what they got instead, many posts here during Betas showed them all the problems that we see now, but they ignored and closed all those threads, it's ok, they can do it those are the rules, but doing this do not solve the problem sadly, let's hope for the best.

[NaramSin.2693]

On 7/18/2024 at 4:03 PM, Shadowsrb.6241 said:

well that was whole point of this, to kill old names and replace with new one...nothing else is done here, one day job...u have separate excel table to change wvw server instead of login excel table to select world. idk why they replace old server names, just to call it new feature?
What is alliance, ppl/guilds were switching servers before, some do it every week...how is this different, now its easier to switch server?
Is now guild, owner of the server or its anet,50ppl can go afk on strongest server and they cant login...which will be the case, as it is when u have big guilds que become unplayable. It is pretty simple problem, to give some purpose to guilds and anet destroy complete game to make something...same, but with different names, against mmo-rpg philosophy. Suddenly Wvw should be like job you had to apply your cv to guild leader so if he accept you can play on that server, they will select role and type of play you must play...I don't get it, instead of creating some separate competitions, war events...they waste time with changing server names. Why was this taking years...implementing blabla,if they keep old server names it would be same as it was...idk

Actually the old Server system still exists, they just added a new layer (full of problems) in top of them, now you need a guild to play and they can fix the rules (toxic or not, but mainly quite elitist and toxic, this is the dark side of this system), if you agree ok, you can stay on that server if you don't you are on your own and good luck, you will be scattered somewhere, for example if you want to play in an NA new server and you are from EU, you must pay for a Old server switch to go NA and only then find a proper guild to change server and it will maybe happen after some times, if you don't find a good guild there there is no way for you to go where the good guilds are, it's just rng now, a mess...

Edited July 21 by NaramSin.2693
added comment

[MaLong.2079]

On 7/13/2024 at 2:10 AM, Chaba.5410 said:

I still don't understand the idea of not joining your favorite commander's guild.

I still don't understand why some people don't realize that after playing for years in the same server with the same people, the whole server feels and acts like a big guild.

On 7/18/2024 at 5:20 PM, Exxcalibur.6203 said:

Because  there are loads of us, who, as massive introverts / austisitc, almost vomit at the concept of being officialyl in a group.  HOnestly makes mes sick to the stomach. Have no fav comms anyway, prefer wandering with randoms. 

 

Amazingly, not everyone is like you nor wants what you want. 

That, and also alliance guilds get full. My main guild has a waiting list of guild members that want to join the alliance guild.

I think this restructuring brought many problems and solved nothing. The queues and lag are still there, well not anymore because many people just stopped playing when they lost their servers. Now the game mode is just dead in my match.

On the bright side, now I have time to do Return to... stuff and get the legendary amulet. So-- much-- fun--   -.-

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, MaLong.2079 said:

I still don't understand why some people don't realize that after playing for years in the same server with the same people, the whole server feels and acts like a big guild.

You don't know that I used to be one of those "server leaders".  It's ok that you don't understand.  Not everyone played the "server meta-game".  Server communities are much more like a giant cargo ship than a big guild.  You have to turn the rudder way earlier, before you think you do, in order to get the ship to change course in the desired direction and location so as not to hit the iceberg and sink.

The worst thing that did happen to a few servers early in the game was when there were commanders that became too popular.  Those commanders carried the server essentially.  On the surface that looks like a good thing.  In practice for a long term game mode, it is not.  For one, it places way too much pressure on the popular tag and leads to some form of them burning out fast.  For another, it never gives space to others to develop as a tag and get their own pugs following.  The risk to the entire team was when these popular commanders would quit and there were very inexperienced unknowns or no replacement commanders, players would leave.  Then you get a form of implosion where guilds and players would start leaving for other servers.

If you never identify that risk, you never develop any strategies to mitigate it, like developing new commanders and giving them space to gain a following.  It happens with guilds too, not just servers.  From my perspective, when I read about there not being enough commanders and too many pugs to fit into the 500 man guilds of those commanders, that leaves the impression, that this risk was not really mitigated.  The "community" was conditioned to play a certain way and they fall apart when their tags are not available.  Now they're crashing into an iceberg that has been seen from miles and miles and miles away.
 

[cajalbelvue.5319]

On 7/12/2024 at 11:10 PM, Chaba.5410 said:

I still don't understand the idea of not joining your favorite commander's guild.

Think of all the reason you would want to and understand they're not you and don't want to.

[One more for the road.8950]

7 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

You don't know that I used to be one of those "server leaders".  It's ok that you don't understand.  Not everyone played the "server meta-game".  Server communities are much more like a giant cargo ship than a big guild.  You have to turn the rudder way earlier, before you think you do, in order to get the ship to change course in the desired direction and location so as not to hit the iceberg and sink.

The worst thing that did happen to a few servers early in the game was when there were commanders that became too popular.  Those commanders carried the server essentially.  On the surface that looks like a good thing.  In practice for a long term game mode, it is not.  For one, it places way too much pressure on the popular tag and leads to some form of them burning out fast.  For another, it never gives space to others to develop as a tag and get their own pugs following.  The risk to the entire team was when these popular commanders would quit and there were very inexperienced unknowns or no replacement commanders, players would leave.  Then you get a form of implosion where guilds and players would start leaving for other servers.

If you never identify that risk, you never develop any strategies to mitigate it, like developing new commanders and giving them space to gain a following.  It happens with guilds too, not just servers.  From my perspective, when I read about there not being enough commanders and too many pugs to fit into the 500 man guilds of those commanders, that leaves the impression, that this risk was not really mitigated.  The "community" was conditioned to play a certain way and they fall apart when their tags are not available.  Now they're crashing into an iceberg that has been seen from miles and miles and miles away.
 

And not to mention that someone goes on a huge ego trip or there is some conflict getting brushed under the carpet, and suddenly you have either a full blow up or a toxic build up.

[Mabi black.1824]

7 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Now they're crashing into an iceberg that has been seen from miles and miles and miles away.

These are all superficial considerations and certainly do not justify WR. which came with the purpose of making the servers similar to each other and bringing epic battles. which is proving to be a wrong solution. First because the alternation of numbers is a feature of this mode, you just have to manage it (through the score if you want or by really checking thresholds and transfers) not solve it. and second because to get epic battles You must first create the conditions for players to be willing to 'participate' in a collective team action. And in a game based and built on teams/servers I don't even have to explain to you how you can achieve this emphasis. You should get there on your own. It's pretty simple and intuitive.

The drama because players come or go, guilds that transfer and commanders that change teams, has been happening since the dawn of time, and it has never been a problem for anyone, or at least for all those players who want to ''participate'' in a team game. Maybe it's a problem for those weird players who just want to ''win'' especially with numbers.

Edited July 31 by Mabi black.1824

[Cameirus.8407]

The biggest negative is the new player experience.

New player, you jump into WvW, you dont know anyone, but it looks interesting....

and there is no direction now, very few open tags visible. You have to join an alliance to really participate, but the in game direction for this is absolutely zero.

If you do find some commanders to run with, chances are that if you want to join the alliance is full. so you cant even join people you have been playing with, next relink and you are on different teams.

 

The new system may be liked by some (a minority I think) of existing players. But I cant help but see it as Anet, consciously or subconsciously, accepting they will not get new players in wvw and working on that basis.

 

Edited July 31 by Cameirus.8407

[Chaba.5410]

6 hours ago, cajalbelvue.5319 said:

Think of all the reason you would want to and understand they're not you and don't want to.

This topic isn't about me yet assumptions were made about me.  If you try to shut down conversation every time someone responds to those kinds of posts, that's on you.

[Chaba.5410]

2 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

These are all superficial considerations and certainly do not justify WR.

....

The drama because players come or go, guilds that transfer and commanders that change teams, has been happening since the dawn of time, and it has never been a problem for anyone, or at least for all those players who want to ''participate'' in a team game. Maybe it's a problem for those weird players who just want to ''win'' especially with numbers.

Yes.  I wasn't trying to justify WR with my iceberg reference.  Just used it to illustrate that WR is something we all knew was coming Soon (tm).  Not a matter of if, but when.  There was a lot of opportunity beforehand for server and guild leadership to prepare.

I know the EU experience is different from NA.  NA guilds and players seem more divergent than EU or it may have something to do with NA's population being more spread out across timezones.  NA server communities seem to have been playing a kind of WvW where everyone on a server was more split apart already than EU communities.  If 25% of your server plays in a completely opposite timezone from yourself, it's harder to feel much connection to those players than the ones you know from staying up a little later.

Our "server community" set up an alliance consisting of longtime NA primetime guilds, a few havoc guilds, and any solo players who wanted to continue playing with those guilds.  Most of the guilds have a few shared members, a consequence of playing a long time on the same server with a limited recruiting pool.  There were 2-3 significant guilds that were very much part of the "server community", one during EU timezone and another late night guild, that didn't join.  We would've been past the 500 limit if they had wanted to join, but they didn't and no one really asked either.  Some players got alt accounts and guilds helped them level up the alts so those players could still play with both groups.

Edited July 31 by Chaba.5410

[cajalbelvue.5319]

Alliances: Login WvW. No open tag. Do daily. Logout. 
No information on who's doing what, when they're doing it or who could oppose them.
Unused EU Alliance clearing house of information: https://discord.gg/7eJPy7sw
Alliances wanting to be islands unto themselves, hidden from the rest.
Diaspora and exclusivity.

Edited August 14 by cajalbelvue.5319

[MaLong.2079]

20 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

You don't know that I used to be one of those "server leaders".  It's ok that you don't understand.  Not everyone played the "server meta-game".  Server communities are much more like a giant cargo ship than a big guild.  You have to turn the rudder way earlier, before you think you do, in order to get the ship to change course in the desired direction and location so as not to hit the iceberg and sink.

The worst thing that did happen to a few servers early in the game was when there were commanders that became too popular.  Those commanders carried the server essentially.  On the surface that looks like a good thing.  In practice for a long term game mode, it is not.  For one, it places way too much pressure on the popular tag and leads to some form of them burning out fast.  For another, it never gives space to others to develop as a tag and get their own pugs following.  The risk to the entire team was when these popular commanders would quit and there were very inexperienced unknowns or no replacement commanders, players would leave.  Then you get a form of implosion where guilds and players would start leaving for other servers.

If you never identify that risk, you never develop any strategies to mitigate it, like developing new commanders and giving them space to gain a following.  It happens with guilds too, not just servers.  From my perspective, when I read about there not being enough commanders and too many pugs to fit into the 500 man guilds of those commanders, that leaves the impression, that this risk was not really mitigated.  The "community" was conditioned to play a certain way and they fall apart when their tags are not available.  Now they're crashing into an iceberg that has been seen from miles and miles and miles away.
 

I guess you don't understand that we didn't need a 'server leader' (really?) to tell us what to do. By the call outs alone I knew we had enough people on their way to defend whatever objective was under attack. No squad, just good people that wanted to play the game. We did alright most of the time except against meta groups. And even then, we managed many beautiful unlikely victories.

Some times commanders would ask people to leave the map so their squad could get in to fight an invading group. Some of those squads would sit by the waypoint, not helping, hoping to get people to leave the map for the rest of their group to enter. They sat, they cried and they left.

By the way, this was on our home borderlands, whatever it was, desert or alpine. There was something about defending the home bl. I guess I took those people for granted. Lesson learned.

Oh and my server was a big guild (not a... cargo ship?) full of people that knew where to go and what to do. They even knew-- WE knew,  that map chat was for call outs and team chat was mostly for drama.

I miss my server.

[Chaba.5410]

13 hours ago, MaLong.2079 said:

I guess you don't understand that we didn't need a 'server leader' (really?) to tell us what to do.

Server leaders don't "tell people what to do" and especially not at the lower level of what's happening on a map or during a skirmish or even a single match.  That isn't their role nor what they really should spend their time doing.  That's something "boots on the ground" commanders and havocs do.

Edited August 1 by Chaba.5410

[Mister.2315]

Since the final beta restructuring it has been horrible to continue in the world, you have not achieved anything that was expected.
1.- You have managed to separate communities, so to join again you have to create a community guild to meet again.
2.- total imbalance in the different servers according to the time slots.

The best thing would be to return to the previous mvm situation, removing t5, so the population of each mvm server would increase to for each server. It is preferable to queue than to be alone playing.

I think that the population of world versus world has decreased by what is mentioned in the game... you can verify that I am right.
If it weren't for the friends I have in gw2 I would have left the game, it hasn't been fun for me lately.

(Google translator)

[Dantana.8510]

After many years of WVW fun with server mates and protecting our realm, it is now over, .ANET has ruined WVW. I gave it good try but the fun is gone, my

friends are gone and WVW is gone. Even trying to make new friends, they are gone in 6 weeks. Please return WVW or I'm done.

[Shadowsrb.6241]

Its even worse then I thought, didn't know about this "new teams", just throwing bunch of new names every week. This is it, there is no turning back to old. They completely scrap idea of defending something, your land, fighting for your server, your realm, to have some obligation, connection...
I guess wvw died when ppl started switching servers every week, they moiled this serverless csgo crap based on their preferences.Its funny ppl were calling them lowlifes...but they are actually gw2 target audience.
Generally gw2 was always like this, it is why most of ppl quit after a month...they just don't understand, that wet dream they have about converting gw2 to csgo style was always there, it just hit wvw now. But its not complete yet, they should remove armors...weapons, i don't want to grind, i just want to enter and play wvw...

[One more for the road.8950]

1 hour ago, Shadowsrb.6241 said:

Its even worse then I thought, didn't know about this "new teams", just throwing bunch of new names every week.

If you're on a new team every week you better contact support.

Or maybe you should look around a bit better.

[Warhawk.6083]

Crazy I play a game with the balls to call itself GUILD WARS when you dont care about that aspect AT ALLLLL. If i'm not on for a specific time with 1 of my 5 Guild slots selected correctly then I can't play with my friends for a month. People have real life you cant always be on for restructuring!!!!! Now instead of Monetizing WvW more, investing in GvG, and adapting like shouldve been done from the start, were stuck with a change that benefits "NOBODY". I USE TO PAY YOU $20 FOR A TRANSFER AND I STILL WILL GLADLY but I cant because of a system nobody even ask for!!!! You wanna make changes make WvW more competitive, Reward top guilds in servers for there monthly or matchup PPT contribution, and MAKE GVG GREAT AGAIN F***!!!!!