Dawdler.8521 Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 6 hours ago, Erathiel.9318 said: Not to burst your balloon but roamers for example are left out of this equation altogether now that the WR system as you say, centralize communities around guilds and in turn on a small number of people on the top of this food chain who may decide who gets in and who doesn't instead of servers, who in fact did include roamers and newer players in said equation, since roamers were bound to the server of their choice to begin with. You can't force people to join guilds if they don't want to, yet are they to be punished for it by being tossed around to fill the empty gaps in random teams instead? There are far more factors that I haven't mentioned but let's keep it to roamers for now, and before one decides to devalue roamers, some do not simply roam about but in fact serve as scouts, camp cappers and more to easen the burden on larger pug/guild squads. Roaming and being in a guild isn’t mutually exclusive. 2 1 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erathiel.9318 Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said: Roaming and being in a guild isn’t mutually exclusive. Yet again you're dismissing the fact that not all roamers will join guilds though for various reasons, including reasons revolving around social anxiety which your statement completely dismissses, with the majority of pro-WR folks clinging to the statement that non-guilded players should now more or less force themselves to do in order to complete the circle of direct experience today's WvW offers. Punishing non-guilded roamers for not taking the initiative of joining a guild today no matter the reason proves yet again that the WR system excludes equations the previous system had and that it simply isn't for everyone to find a full fledged experience in. 5 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabi black.1824 Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 (edited) 18 hours ago, Kinzu.5820 said: I agree but keep in-mind this system is meant to urge you to invest in a guild rather than a server. Unfortunately, the servers existed and there are ties to enjoyable communes, with their commanders and regulars, that will be disrupted by this new experiment. If you want it to be just ''guild'' then you have to do the job properly and to the end. You don't leave things halfway. The game design is still the same as before, which has the server at the center. too bad that no one cares about the server anymore. too convenient to make the server useless and believe that you have finished the job. poor deluded . Score, comparison, ranking must be requalified and moved to the guild. And they'll have to make sure that my 10-man guild can climb the leaderboard just like your 100-man guild. Only then will I start looking with some interest at how you want to change this game mode. In my area they always say that if you want to do the job halfway, then it's better that you give up and do something else.😉 Edited October 7 by Mabi black.1824 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinzu.5820 Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 3 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said: If you want it to be just ''guild'' then you have to do the job properly and to the end. You don't leave things halfway. The game design is still the same as before, which has the server at the center. too bad that no one cares about the server anymore. too convenient to make the server useless and believe that you have finished the job. poor deluded . Score, comparison, ranking must be requalified and moved to the guild. And they'll have to make sure that my 10-man guild can climb the leaderboard just like your 100-man guild. Only then will I start looking with some interest at how you want to change this game mode. In my area they always say that if you want to do the job halfway, then it's better that you give up and do something else.😉 Initially, I think making sure that WvW provided it's own server grouping without the capabilities for transfer would have been a very good idea. With how MMO's have always 'worked' in process - the server flare has always been your first point of contact when investing time into the game. You want to immediately grow and mingle with the community or find out what alternative community fits for you. With the WvW system the politics started immediately and have never stopped. The first few years saw people moving and shifting around to try and balance their own experience and end up burning out when attempting to sort it themselves. Games before and after Guild Wars 2 have all found the same problem with server transferring as a whole, it's very easy to take up stakes and relocate. This is where the balancing issues can persist to ruin the experience once all of the best players end up finding each-other so long as they get along while fighting. If you're legitimately good, you'll have no problem mingling with whomever you want and shouldn't have many gripes between you resulting in very powerful coordination. The exact same thing can happen with a guild, you end up amassing the most talent in one zone and it obliterates everyone. That's not a bad thing, really. When you entitle it to a server grouping you have the issue where now everyone can pay to follow or engage alongside the powerhouses and it really makes you sore to think about the extra fee or reorganization that is readily available to entice you to transfer or move to avoid the interaction. Ironically, from a developmental point of view - It's healthier for the game to have some force of contact and less user-input control as to whom is sorted where, apart from guilds. The alternative problem apart from tactile play is the coordination of personality and who you love playing the game with! This is where there needs to be a reasonable amount of sacrifice to allow recirculation of the server grouping concept while gently sacrificing being on your best friends side, potentially. The automated system will stop the player-made shuffling by shuffling it themselves and is inherently a good idea, somehow, some way. The server-bearing entitlement is more-so a runoff from how MMORPG's have always been. Even I felt a fair share of investment to the server I was playing on but because of user-made shuffling it did end up snuffing itself out. One day I was incredibly pleased and having non-stop fun - A few months after hiatus to return from an alternate franchise and the entire server was different, anyway, and I had no control at that point either. I think an overhaul is a good idea but has it worked thus far? I'd like to see some core improvements to a few things as-well as see what the algorithms are basing their calculations off-of through metrics we can track in-game. As I've said prior, all mechanical faults of the current game aside (cheating, API key farming for cheating methods, pushing against the system, MMO typicality's of class balance and gear, etc) it's not necessarily a 'half-baked' job proposition as you've alleged but it sure does feel like it when considering what server titles did, and usually do, add to games like this. In regards to guilds they do add a much more harmonious component underneath the server entity and should be favored more-so than what we have all stereotypically classified as the first point of identification. At the end of the day, apart from core-communities there was a large portion of people mixing and matching their playstyles with server transfers, anyway. There's a certain point where even guilds are capable of sacrificing their own less-consistent units because of play-timing and contributions which will eventually auto-sort your own guild for you, where the people whom don't often contribute might not reach the matchup. It's a little depressing regarding your social aspects of the game but for the competitive aspect it's a win - You probably didn't choose the right guild anyway if you've been sorted out of your team without them, anyway. I think, in the grand scheme of things, moving away from a 'static' ordering system of being rooted by your guild or server, for this game specifically, is a worthy thing to try to allow experimentation with. Eventually, based on how hardcore you are - You'd end up where you are with the most likeminded competition and maybe flagging up as different tags and names as it progresses is an enjoyable future prospect. I think the community needs to allow more egregious change and fluctuation for this beta-period to see exactly how well the new system can manage it, for a temporary period of time to make sure everything results without being a truly 'half-finished' job in itself. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuks.8241 Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 7 hours ago, Erathiel.9318 said: Yet again you're dismissing the fact that not all roamers will join guilds though for various reasons, including reasons revolving around social anxiety which your statement completely dismissses, with the majority of pro-WR folks clinging to the statement that non-guilded players should now more or less force themselves to do in order to complete the circle of direct experience today's WvW offers. Punishing non-guilded roamers for not taking the initiative of joining a guild today no matter the reason proves yet again that the WR system excludes equations the previous system had and that it simply isn't for everyone to find a full fledged experience in. Youre mixing 2 completely different things. Being a roamer has absolutely nothing with not wanting to join a guilds due to some personal reason. 5 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said: And they'll have to make sure that my 10-man guild can climb the leaderboard just like your 100-man guild. Only then will I start looking with some interest at how you want to change this game mode. In my area they always say that if you want to do the job halfway, then it's better that you give up and do something else.😉 Why would they accomodate your 10 man guild? You said it well yourself. Want to compete? Dont do a halfway job, assemble a proper guild thats able to do it. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Safty.7326 Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 9 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said: Score, comparison, ranking must be requalified and moved to the guild. This I hope would be something of the end goal of these changes as current iteration is as meaningless as the old one if not more so. Whatever the implementation I would hope it would be to encourage greater participation and growth as the benefits to a guild are something akin to its original release where server buffs were a thing to its server members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erathiel.9318 Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 4 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said: Being a roamer has absolutely nothing with not wanting to join a guilds due to some personal reason. What's your proof to this claim? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 (edited) 8 hours ago, Erathiel.9318 said: What's your proof to this claim? Being a roamer or choosing to roam is a type of game play. Not wanting to join a guild due to "reasons" or w/e has far more to do with personal and social issues. Neither requires the other to be valid in order to exist. Edited October 8 by Cyninja.2954 2 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 10 hours ago, Erathiel.9318 said: What's your proof to this claim? What an incredibly weird thing to demand proof of. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One more for the road.8950 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 10 hours ago, Erathiel.9318 said: What's your proof to this claim? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? One is a way to play the game mode, the other is a social choice. It's like asking for proof for the claim that what movies you like to watch has nothing to do with what kind of snacks you eat when watching it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabi black.1824 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 (edited) 17 hours ago, Kinzu.5820 said: I think, in the grand scheme of things, moving away from a 'static' ordering system of being rooted by your guild or server, for this game specifically, is a worthy thing to try to allow experimentation with I pretty much agree with what you're saying here. The previous format, in addition to having all the balance problems we all know, was also in a perpetual form, there was never an end and this is definitely boring. In fact, I have suggested several times to use WR every 12 months. This way the game design still makes sense. It's still a team/server competition worth playing. You have more time to ''feel'' team up with everyone else around you. you have more time to get to know them. You have more time to confront your enemies. You have more time to build a season/tournament for all the other teams. I have been suggesting a 'compromise' for a long time now. that is capable of involving all players with or without a guild , no one excluded. Edited October 8 by Mabi black.1824 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabi black.1824 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 15 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said: Why would they accomodate your 10 man guild? You said it well yourself. Want to compete? Dont do a halfway job, assemble a proper guild thats able to do it. I would say that I don't do a half-hearted job if I choose to play with 10 long-time friends. and common sense should still allow me to participate in a team confrontation / competition like all the others. It is Anet who does things halfway when he excludes me from the confrontation / competition because I play without a guild or because I have a guild of 10 men. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinzu.5820 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 5 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said: I pretty much agree with what you're saying here. The previous format, in addition to having all the balance problems we all know, was also in a perpetual form, there was never an end and this is definitely boring. In fact, I have suggested several times to use WR every 12 months. This way the game design still makes sense. It's still a team/server competition worth playing. You have more time to ''feel'' team up with everyone else around you. you have more time to get to know them. You have more time to confront your enemies. You have more time to build a season/tournament for all the other teams. I have been suggesting a 'compromise' for a long time now. that is capable of involving all players with or without a guild , no one excluded. Having the Reset every year - or even on a longer monthly period would be an interesting change but it might result in stagnant response - returning to the same problem we've faced before through servers and now automated teams but in regards to a month into play due to burnout. In a perfect world you'd want the sort to be the best possible and most consistent resulting in this potentially happening anyway with the most intense team matchups being the same in consistency as they were at a more stable point of the game's early history. The automated system is pretty cool in regards to this game wherein even if that happens, and the same players are on the same three teams regarding their consistent behavior, we're still able to be mixed into a different 1/3 every week (and if not this should be the case for some fun rivalry and revelry). Something I'd want to see is an opposite to really pressure the system to find where players sit. Maybe a havoc week - but not for roaming. Reset every day based on parameters once they're more developed to really push the algorithm to see what happens. Afterwards having a matchup take the regular week to have it reflect upon itself while being monitored is an easy way to boost the system's throughput. It'll work while testing manufacturing machines, it'll work with the game - although it will end up being chaotic. In the early days of the game, however, I did want for the matchups to last longer than a week when most borderlands were queued and everyone was learning the core play, that was a lot of fun and sometimes the reshuffle killed the vibe. If these algorithms are fit to maximum potential we might see that return sometime in the future. There's a lot of PvP game alternatives that just aren't what you can get here or don't have room for what WvW is. The guild entity was there but having a pug of really good mix-around members still felt like a coordinated group. - Grew new guilds, I'm sure a lot of current players felt that. I think if they can nail this algorithmic system and provide some form of personal stats pertaining to whom or who is interacting with the matchups we'll see some fun content you won't want to put down. Above seeing no-one excluded I'd also like to see a third borderland iteration so there can be that dynamic of specific matchups running a field of attack and defense with encouragement that the next week has a different place to start. Something to give incentive to not just hound EBG and less dismay if someone doesn't like the Alpine or Desert borderlands. I do enjoy all of them, personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuks.8241 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 I like the higher change cadence with WR. We get to play with different enemies and allies more often. So you can see their playstyles, meet new players and so on. In the old system your allies stayed the same over long periods unless you hopped servers a lot. And servers often ended up in similar tiers so you even often met the same enemies. It's also fun to play against guilds that you've been on the same server with in the past. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabi black.1824 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said: I like the higher change cadence with WR. I agree with this, since we are still in a beta version, I also recommend pushing and forcing the new mechanic so as to check where it takes you. 1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said: It's also fun to play against guilds that you've been on the same server with in the past. absolutely true. I would add that at the moment it is one of the few motivations you have left. Edited October 8 by Mabi black.1824 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinzu.5820 Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 On 10/6/2024 at 7:16 PM, Erathiel.9318 said: Not to burst your balloon but roamers for example are left out of this equation altogether now that the WR system as you say, centralize communities around guilds and in turn on a small number of people on the top of this food chain who may decide who gets in and who doesn't instead of servers, who in fact did include roamers and newer players in said equation, since roamers were bound to the server of their choice to begin with. You can't force people to join guilds if they don't want to, yet are they to be punished for it by being tossed around to fill the empty gaps in random teams instead? There are far more factors that I haven't mentioned but let's keep it to roamers for now, and before one decides to devalue roamers, some do not simply roam about but in fact serve as scouts, camp cappers and more to easen the burden on larger pug/guild squads. With all due respect there is no bubble to burst. I am a roamer. I stopped joining guilds because being entertaining ended in someones jealousy ruining it quite often behind the scenes and wanting to show up for a clock-in-clock-out raid time made the game feel like work from a personal perspective but I did it and did it well in some very well-maintained guilds back in a, now depricated, earlier era. It's more fun for me to hop in and contribute where I want to rather than a more static concept but I do understand your POV. I do wish to assert that I immediately found duels, pick-team fights and havoc content dropping in immediately from hiatus - and within all timezone growth, peak and descent play-frequencies. It's not my game and the system is on, right now. You can't change that as of right now unless they opt out of this type of sorting method - which is possible. I simply wish to state that, in this virtual testing zone, that fighting against this system and telling it to not do what it wants to do, by automated purpose, is going to stop it from getting to where the developers want it to be. The central concept has always been in the name and I feel it's worthy to provide for. Again, I am a roamer. I find it the most fun, now. Yes, you get seperated from friends - If you aren't a toxic kitten you will be fine to play with the people you stomp and if they spark fued in social activities with you that's a voluntary admission of bridge burning that ends up making being sorted away from your regulars suck worse. I bring this up as I did in-fact do that myself at a time and I can reference that as a thing to dwell on, as a roamer, unknowing if you're going to find consistent players. The community always seems to perceive the developer as being unknowing to it's wishes in WvW, they're trying and have much more to analyze than what most players seem to understand. There's always a vocal majority of audible volume flying around trying to pop bubbles that might not be there as an intrinsic concept to justify my statement. Losing your friends in a shuffle sucks but it's for what the game truly does lean towards. If I worked here I'd present my own idea in regards to simulated theory to balance classwork and gearwork but with this game it is very diverse and immense to tackle - It will take some time for all of the pieces to fit how it's progressed in comparison to prior play and it's exactly relative to what goes into actually playing it, as you can see. It's not balanced for roamers but they do take note when they can and, ultimately, perfect balance can be achieved while maintaining diversity and action: Like team sorting desires to do. See you out there! 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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