How is vindicator balanced?

[Razor.6392]

yoo i didn't expect to see fighting game examples in here lmao, good stuff

[Flowki.7194]

37 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

lol they'd already done significant amounts of nerfs to Cata before the signet and written in stone buffs. Heck they'd even already done some before the scepter buffs.

Not even close, lol, Cata is both better and easier to get significant results out of than Renegade. There is, at best, a more difficult initial learning curve in trying to figure out what your skills do because you have more options, but some dude mashing buttons on Cata is still going to do better than some dude mashing buttons on Renegade.

But it is actually ineffective now compared to a meta sidenoder like Spb, you're right about that. I wouldn't ever deny that. But it's because they nerfed it for like a year straight because it was an absolute terror, and pre-nerf Hammer Cata was ABSOLUTELY just as faceroll as anything else. You're utterly delusional if you don't think it was.

You're making this massive mistake that you and plenty of other people constantly make in thinking that something is harder because it has more abilities, and that's not always true.
Having more answers, having the options to respond to more situations because you have more things, like blocks, projectile hate, or whatever else, is EASIER than being forced to handle them in some other way. Having the ability to recover from mistakes because you have actual sustain, or the ability to escape because you have actual disengage (that's not necessarily ele, just an example), is EASIER than having to have incredible positioning lest you instantly get w keyed and die.

Nobody in their right mind would say that someone like Gief, who has a fairly simple game plan, is easier than Luke or Ken (are these guys still strong? idk i don't keep up with street fighter i only play anime fighters cus air dashes are cool) because he has less options.

It's the same thing here. Number of abilities is not some inherent indicator of skill, nor is poor number tuning.
Vindicator has far more answers to any situation than either Herald or Renegade. It takes very, very little skill, if there's even a point where it matters at all, to meet the level at which those two can never hope to compete just based on spec design alone.

There are in fact a couple on NA. I forget their names, don't see them often. They play some goofy Mallyx/Ventari build. It does nothing but afk on mid and hope the enemy team is dumb enough to target them.
It's entirely ignorable and has no other game plan other than that.

 

When was the last time you played hammer cata? You should revisit it. What motive do you think I have to say hammer cata is mechanically harder than core rev/ren, when I play core rev currently, and played ren for a while on and off. What is my motive to lie? It seems more the case that ren has some clear limitations, and you confuse that with difficulty, and becuase hammer cata was once good.. that hammer cata is "easier" becuase it is "more effective". Ren is not harder than hammer cata, and like I said, go play hammer cata for a month and come tell me how effective it is, especially for its difficulty.

 

You are making the same cope mistake of imagining your build takes some special X skill to play. Listen mate.. I play core rev, it is more difficult than people realise, but it is not harder than hammer cata, neither is ren. Again, what is my motive to lie? I litterally main core rev now, and have done for the past year or so. Hammer vindi is also harder than core rev and ren, but atm, is also more effective. Overperforming? In good hands yes, but that does not justify nerfing it into oblivion, or nerfing it so that core rev/ren are as effective despite them being lower difficulty. Youre bias to your spec, its obvious. It is an absolute fact that complexity increases difficulty, ren/core rev are not as complex as vindi. Effectiveness is again another issue. Youre talking yourself out of logic, rather than accepting the spec you play is not that hard, just not that effective, the same as mine. Half of the issue is that their are also easier specs than ren that are more effective, which is wrong, very wrong imo. Difficulty should dicatate effectiveness, or put it this way it is better that vindi is currently meta, not ren, becuase ren is not as hard to play. 

 

I play mallyx/vent also, and it is far from afk on mid. We can play some unranked duo tommorow if you like, the spec has very good synergy with most other specs, mostly in the form of good uptime of CC+stab+resistence, allowing you to focus on dps. The CC uptime also gives good queen poison uptime, and good boon rips with absorption. Its a utility build, with decent enough damage that it can also win a lot of 1v1s.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 2 by Flowki.7194

[Shagie.7612]

44 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

What is my motive to lie?

Who said anything about lying?
I don't think you believe you're lying, I just think you've convinced yourself you know what you're talking about, when you clearly don't and can't even back it up with your performance. Clearly there's both a lack of knowledge and ability in both macro and micro level play.

44 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You are making the same cope mistake of imagining your build takes some special X skill to play.

No? I really don't think the mechanics of the elite are that hard. It's all the rest of what goes into gameplay that make it difficult, because if you screw up once you're dead, because it has no real responses, unlike multiple other builds including Cata. Positioning, timing, dodges, rotations, and so on. You have to be significantly cleaner on all of those.

44 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Hammer vindi is also harder than core rev and ren, but atm, is also more effective.

Again, there's a slightly higher initial learning curve because it has more abilities. That takes like an hour to read them and learn. Past that, playing Vindicator at any given rating is ABSOLUTELY easier than playing core, Herald, or Rene. It doesn't take that much knowledge or mechanical skill to hit a point where you can use the options it has well enough to surpass something that doesn't have those options.

Heck, if you're a player that's at such a low skill level that the Alliance is too much for you, you can literally just play Shiro/Jalis, same build power Ren would, and you're the same thing except objectively better because Vindicator. At that point, it's easier at low skill levels too.

44 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Ren is not harder than hammer cata, and like I said, go play hammer cata for a month and come tell me how effective it is, especially for its difficulty.

It's not gonna be effective, because it's been nerfed continually. Nobody's denied that, and I explicitly stated pre-nerf hammer Cata. Anet nukes and abandons specs all the time. It's wrong, but Cata got sent to the shadow realm in the same way almost every other EoD spec has. And yet despite that, it's still better and more forgiving than Renegade.

Somehow Vindi is the only EoD elite that's avoided the chopping block. Probably because it's always in evades whenever Anet thinks about smacking it down.

If I'm biased what in the world does that make someone who constantly defended Catalyst, and currently defends Vindicator, when they were/are very clearly overperforming?

Edited July 2 by Shagie.7612

[Flowki.7194]

15 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Who said anything about lying?
I don't think you believe you're lying, I just think you've convinced yourself you know what you're talking about, when you clearly don't and can't even back it up with your performance. Clearly there's both a lack of knowledge and ability in both macro and micro level play.

But I am backing it up with my performance?  I play on/off peak, mostly solo Q, and even on a sunday, which is by far the the MMR at its widest, on a spec that has no "roam" carry, so is limited more to its team performance. I mostly sit around G3 in 5s, and finished in mid g3 for 3s this season (normally don't play it). I am happy with that, and I know kitten well its a good position to sit in given the spec role. So again, are you telling me I should be in p1+ every season? Show me the evidence of core revs sitting in plat, while playing over 500 games a season, solo Q, any time of the day/night. I'm not even trying to be cocky, im just commpitant youre massively downplaying the fact that sitting in g3 on core rev is about the same as sitting in p1 on a fotm roamer. Youre getting into plat on ren? Imaging where youd get on a meta build. But you enjoy ren, just as I enjoy core.

15 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

No? I really don't think the mechanics of the elite are that hard. It's all the rest of what goes into gameplay that make it difficult, because if you screw up once you're dead, because it has no real responses, unlike multiple other builds including Cata. Positioning, timing, dodges, rotations, and so on. You have to be significantly cleaner on all of those.

This is the confusion of effectiveness/punishment for mistakes/mechanical difficulty.

 

15 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Again, there's a slightly higher initial learning curve because it has more abilities. That takes like an hour to read them and learn. Past that, playing Vindicator at any given rating is ABSOLUTELY easier than playing core, Herald, or Rene. It doesn't take that much knowledge or mechanical skill to hit a point where you can use the options it has well enough to surpass something that doesn't have those options.

Heck, if you're a player that's at such a low skill level that the Alliance is too much for you, you can literally just play Shiro/Jalis, same build power Ren would, and you're the same thing except objectively better because Vindicator. At that point, it's easier at low skill levels too.

 

In this part you are only comparing rev with rev, and at that I still think youre wrong. Vindi is mechanically harder than herald/ren/core, not by miles (ok I got a bit excited on that one) but it is indeed mechanically harder. The effectivness and the punishment for mistakes differ, as roles between power, and more team fight builds like mine differ. I can survive things on core rev that I know absolutely get me killed on dps power rev, of any build. On the other hand, core condi has limitations in its' burst dmg, but offers really good team utility (obviosuly its not chrono meta level effective). This is the point I am making, you seem to be bluring the lines between mechanical difficulty, effectiveness, and punishment for mistakes. That aside, I think we can both agree rev in general, especially the energy manedgement, is a massive learning curve, which ramps up the difficulty. That makes the class one of the harder ones on a mechanical level by default, no matter the spec, and that mechanical difficulty peaks with vindi, while punishment relative to difficulty peaks with herald (too much so). Withought that energy manedgement, even vindi would not compare to the mechanical difficulty of hammer cata.

 

On another note, nobody really plays with tablet, but is the most difficullt, versatile and bloated legend (again, effectiveness is another thing). Rev support with tablet-X, on any spec, exceeds the difficulty of ele support, certainly core support, and chrono support. I think only firebrand would have a shout at competing with the difficulty of support rev, although I only played a little firebrand so can't be sure. Support rev is full of mechanics that are easily overlooked at a pass, the difficulty of it absolutely caught me by suprise.

 

15 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

It's not gonna be effective, because it's been nerfed continually. Nobody's denied that, and I explicitly stated pre-nerf hammer Cata. Anet nukes and abandons specs all the time. It's wrong, but Cata got sent to the shadow realm in the same way almost every other EoD spec has. And yet despite that, it's still better and more forgiving than Renegade.

Somehow Vindi is the only EoD elite that's avoided the chopping block. Probably because it's always in evades whenever Anet thinks about smacking it down.

If I'm biased what in the world does that make someone who constantly defended Catalyst, and currently defends Vindicator, when they were/are very clearly overperforming?

 

I think you are again confusing effectiveness with difficulty, and again I am not so sure I agree hammer cata is more forgiving. You have to agree both hammer cata and ren are not performing well, evidenced by the fact I rarely see either, and they are normally a 10 second kill when I do (even as core rev). I would honestly say hammer cata and rev are both similar in punishment, and as we hopefully agree, both underperforming. However, the specs work quite different, so your idea of which is more effective I disagree with (ren is more effective). The reason is the current meta, their is a lot of mobility, and hammer cata has 0 answer to that, its mobility is shocking, its range is shocking, and its CC relative to no mobility is shocking (see SPB/druid). Because of those reasons, it is a high risk spec to side node with, any spec with mobility can leave if losing, and since the cata has no mobility, it is a free +1. It then has to contend with SPB/druids, which are far better duelists in nion every conceivable way.. evidenced by the fact of SPB/mace ranger representation over hammer cata. Hammer cata also sucks in group fights, low range, 0 mobility, low CC count, and not very good condi cleanse. Ren is margianlly better, simply becuase it has more range pressure options, and some choice not to step in the fuzz, hammer cata has no choice but to step in it.. or just do no damage?

Edited July 2 by Flowki.7194

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Ok flowki, it took a moment to remember who you are, sorry got a lapsus.

Now that I DO know who you are, I can confidently say you're lying.

I love you and respect you but none of the several builds I've seen you playing would beat any vindicator beyond plat1 and that's already stretching it.

Not through your fault, you're playing on harder difficulty because you play very original and offmeta builds, but that's a matchup you don't win and you should stop pretending you do.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

21 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Ok flowki, it took a moment to remember who you are, sorry got a lapsus.

Now that I DO know who you are, I can confidently say you're lying.

I love you and respect you but none of the several builds I've seen you playing would beat any vindicator beyond plat1 and that's already stretching it.

Not through your fault, you're playing on harder difficulty because you play very original and offmeta builds, but that's a matchup you don't win and you should stop pretending you do.

Alright that's it

I'm transferring to EU

I NEED context for this, what are yall doing over there

I'm joining underworld in 4 hours

Edited July 2 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[arazoth.7290]

21 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

 

I love you and respect you but none of the several builds I've seen you playing would beat any vindicator beyond plat1 and that's already stretching it.

1v1 that core build if same skill lvl won't win vs vindi.

In teamfights if that core build is played well, then it has more to offer for the team while same time pressuring openents. Power vindi shiro almost has zero team benefits aside damage and little cc that sometimes can hit.

So aside dueling, the roles of both is comparing apples with oranges. If that core build would be played according to role well in a good duo and doing everything you can, plat 2-3 are 100% obtainable.

So comparing both builds vc different roles is meaningless in both argue

[arazoth.7290]

9 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Alright that's it

I'm transferring to EU

I NEED context for this, what are yall doing over there

I'm joining underworld in 4 hours

I added you some time ago 😘😻

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Just now, arazoth.7290 said:

I added you some time ago 😘😻

@Myror.7521 I approach

[arazoth.7290]

10 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Alright that's it

I'm transferring to EU

I NEED context for this, what are yall doing over there

I'm joining underworld in 4 hours

underworld, perfect,  my world 😂

[arazoth.7290]

Just now, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Myror.7521 I approach

I am not myror, I am purple 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 minute ago, arazoth.7290 said:

underworld, perfect,  my world 😂

You have good taste. I'm from Gate of Madness but guess which title I picked

Edit: I also need to fight Myror which is the reason for the tag

Edited July 2 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[arazoth.7290]

Just now, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You have good taste. I'm from Gate of Madness but guess which title I picked

Ultimate ritualist?

[Flowki.7194]

42 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Ok flowki, it took a moment to remember who you are, sorry got a lapsus.

Now that I DO know who you are, I can confidently say you're lying.

I love you and respect you but none of the several builds I've seen you playing would beat any vindicator beyond plat1 and that's already stretching it.

Not through your fault, you're playing on harder difficulty because you play very original and offmeta builds, but that's a matchup you don't win and you should stop pretending you do.

I have repeatadly stated in many other threatds that I will not beat a vindi p2+ in a duel, in a group fight that is a whole other thing, I can CC the vindi, so that others can follow up, and thats about all I can do. Becuase I simply do not have the skill to beat a p2 player on any able spec, then I have no business talking about p2+ level balance, which I don't. 

 

Are all of the people here p2+ and can speak of vindi at that level? If yes, then you guys have your own discussion, I will not get involved, its beyound my level. Below that, which I actaully feel is 95% of us around here, I have a place to talk about vindi balance. I played it before it was buffed, Ive played rev for almost 1.5 year? Ive beat p1 vindis in duels, as core rev, and vindis <g3 were 99/100 times a win in 1v1, at times I even killed them in a 1v2, becuase they can quickly be punished for not evading properly. My only goal here is to stop what happened to many other specs, happening to vindi. It is a difficult/punishing spec, a rewarding spec if played right, just like holo, and should not be nerfed into the ground.

 

And for more clarity, I was playing mace ranger about a month or two before it went meta, although I wasnt that good at it, I came to these forums (you can find these posts) telling people how it was bloated, and was looking pretty OP in good hands, even known long time ranger mains around here laughed at me, and then it went meta. I am just bringing that up becuase alshough I am not a high plat player, I do understand a lot of the game. This is why I suggest that nerfing evades on vindi needs a solid compensation, becuase I have played it and got many kills with it, got lots of death on it, to know where it struggles as a <p1 player, and know how fragile the spec is to being nerfed into oblivion.

 

It is better to do something about deathdrop damage first, and then see where that leaves vindis up and down the skill ladder. Lower level vindis are already easy to kill, just like lower level eles, holos, heralds, all those types.

Edited July 2 by Flowki.7194

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Ultimate ritualist?

Heck no, rev is not my main by any stretch

I just like to fight ☠️ 

Edited July 2 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[arazoth.7290]

16 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Heck no, rev is not my main by any stretch

I just like to fight ☠️ 

mmm, "slayer"?

[arazoth.7290]

29 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Heck no, rev is not my main by any stretch

I just like to fight ☠️ 

welcoming you

[Myror.7521]

@arazoth.7290 @Azure The Heartless.3261 i hear someone said my Name *careful see to Azure*

Arazot is not me ..... He purple me black like my Soul ... uwu

Edited July 2 by Myror.7521

[arazoth.7290]

1 minute ago, Myror.7521 said:

@arazoth.7290 @Azure The Heartless.3261 i hear someone said my Name *careful see to Azure*

Arazot is not me ..... He purple me black like my Soul ... uwu

💜

[Frequency.6407]

littel gurls derail thred 💜 UWU

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 7/1/2024 at 9:54 AM, Razor.6392 said:

Bro shits out damage just by existing lmao, almost no telegraphs either and then boom 4000 7000 6000 8000 1200x7 damage with all of them being crits. Surely this isn't ok right?

Let me tell you why this is ok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because Revenant is a class favored by the best players and the best players tend to win.

[Unknown.6851]

Let's not mention core rev. I like it the way it is.. 

[Shagie.7612]

This is real long so:

7 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

But I am backing it up with my performance?

Yeah, by losing more than you win every season and being low gold 3. You can play anything to plat consistently, especially on EU where rating's more inflated. 1300 isn't even top 250. Heck, my EU account sat in plat until I burnt out for the season after a rough night of queues because playing something off-meta is painfully volatile. And that's from overseas, no weaponmaster, and one of the worst possible builds in the game. Being that low is a clear poor understanding of the game at both the micro and macro level.

7 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Vindi is mechanically harder than herald/ren/core, not by miles (ok I got a bit excited on that one) but it is indeed mechanically harder.

Yes, but my stance is that the mechanical skill difference is minor and reaching a point in which it no longer matters and Vindicator is actually EASIER to win is so low that it might not even exist. And for extremely low skilled players they can just swap to Shiro/Jalis and be objectively better.
Vindicator's nowhere near as difficult as people make it out to be and lets you get away with way more silly plays that are instant death for Herald or Ren playing the same role.
Having another set of utilities on the same set of buttons is a joke of a challenge, relative to the rest of what pvp demands. Heck, there's an argument to be made that managing energy on Herald or Ren is more mechanically demanding than Vindicator's low costs and Energy Meld.

7 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

However, the specs work quite different, so your idea of which is more effective I disagree with (ren is more effective).

Absolutely not. Hammer Cata and FA Cata are both better in their roles, to this day, than any Renegade build is in whatever role it's trying to fill, and the only conclusion I can draw from this is that you don't know how to play your Ele to the same degree as your Rev.

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm transferring to EU

Just buy an HoT/PoF account for like 7 bucks, it floods you with infinity gold you can send to your main account and all you gotta do is play a daily pvp match.
That's what I did. The vault is godlike. Now I have lots of legendaries and full accessories.

[Buran.3796]

On 7/1/2024 at 4:52 PM, Vinny.7260 said:

It has 2 dodges + endurance regeneration via F2 + Shiro evade + evade from Hammer 3 + Evade from Blue Alliance.

  The meta build doesn't have any endurance regeneration  via F2; the ones which use  Song of Arboreum are probably the ones which are a free kill.  I find hammer Rev hard to play (much more than old Herald) and never run that weapon setup. I'm quite impressed that people have been able to make it work over several  MATs  and unlike DH or Reaper the build isn't friendly at all..

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Let me tell you why this is ok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because Revenant is a class favored by the best players and the best players tend to win.

He blinked, that's why it wasn't telegraphed