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Stalk Rangers - Yup

Trevor Boyer.6524
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NecroSummonsMors.7816

NecroSummonsMors.7816

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Even without the jaguar, it's still 3*leaps+smoke, 2*astral, 3*Lb3 that's, if i'm not mistaken 22s of stealth over 60s, which is 36.6% stealth uptime and that's a lot.

Jaguar just bumps it up to 28s which is 46.6%. With sword and war horn instead of gs could be even higher but ofc you lose the block

I think this is indicative of the type of idea behind balancing right now, just add add add. It's wrong on every class and spec

Edited by NecroSummonsMors.7816
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Flowki.7194

Flowki.7194

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I was messing around with spear in beta also, with the trait for 2x use on weapon swaps (forgot name). The only real downtime was waiting out the IC on stealth. On the other hand LB stealth is far from reliable, they should have made that unblockable, and not given stealth from the jag, but that would make too much sense. I personally think there is no reason for ranger to have any more stealth than on LB.. but that horse has long left the barn.

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Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

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9 hours ago, NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

Even without the jaguar, it's still 3*leaps+smoke, 2*astral, 3*Lb3 that's, if i'm not mistaken 22s of stealth over 60s, which is 36.6% stealth uptime and that's a lot.

Jaguar just bumps it up to 28s which is 46.6%. With sword and war horn instead of gs could be even higher but ofc you lose the block

I think this is indicative of the type of idea behind balancing right now, just add add add. It's wrong on every class and spec

Glad you brought it up because I was breaking this down myself, probably should have added it into the video.

We've seen plenty of Ranger builds in the past that can leap/blast prebuff a lot of stealth. Some Ranger build can prebuff upwards of 14+s of stealth for an entire party. Let's say you're running some kind of a support with earth spirit double blast trait, mace/warhorn 2x blasts, staff blast, and then either Untamed or Druid for another blast on the smoke field. Thing is, older builds were good for 1x elongated prebuff for a party gank opener, or maybe for yourself on a Soulbeast for an elongated gank moment. But you couldn't chain individual stealth procs together to create a super tight cycle of perpetual stealth detarget, like you see in the video. A tight cycle of perma detaregt is very strong for staying in a brawl kind of presence vs. just a singular gank moment.

This is what we're looking at for a maximum individual stealth proc build to be able to do what is in that video:

  1. Hunter's Shot - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) - 3s stealth on a 12s CD.
  2. Swoop - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) through Smoke Cloud - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) - 3s stealth on 20s CD.
  3. Celestial Shadow - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) - 3s party stealth when exit CA Kit 20s CD.
  4. Stalk - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) - 3s stealth on 35s CD.
  5. This ends up chaining into stealth proc about once per every 6-7 seconds over the course of 60 seconds. And since those stealths are all 3s stealths, that means this build is in stealth or can be in stealth, about 50% of the time you engage it over the course of 60 seconds.

You can't get away with the same kind of cycle if you try to do it on Untamed because the unleash blast would fall into the same instance as the smoke cloud, bringing the build down to 3x individual stealth instances. You can't get away with the same kind of cycle with mace/mace or anything else that isn't longbow, because that again, falls into smoke cloud instance, dropping the build down to only 3x individual stealth instances.

There are a lot of variants that people could try here, such as selecting marksmanship & mace/mace over skirmishing & longbow, but if you want MAXIMUM stealth potential so that the build plays like a Deadeye for a ridiculous amount of chained detarget & repositions, it has to be a Druid and it has to use longbow. Without that 12s CD Hunter's Shot to fill in gaps between the 20s CD smoke field, 20s CD celestial shadow, and the 35s stalk, the build will lose that "thief like feel" very quickly.

About Stalk directly. You'd think it was the least important stealth out of them all, due to the 35s CD. But Stalk is likely the most important stealth that the build has. It doesn't require hitting a target like Hunter's Shot. It doesn't require prep time like leap/blast into smoke field. Even CA Kit has the tell that "you go into CA Kit, obviously a stealth is about to happen". Stalk actually has unlimited range come to find out, and just instantly works. The pet could be hard stuck in immobs like 3000 range from you, and the use of Stalk F2 will instantly stealth the Ranger. Stalk also works while you are in downstate. This makes the Ranger downstate kit even more ridiculous to deal with than it was before, because now it can stealth on the ground like a Thief/Mesmer lol.

It's not even a complex build. Just run Berserker/Deadeye Rune/Relic Of Speed. Maybe Demolisher/Druid Rune/Speed, if you want less damage more sustain, but I am finding full DPS to definitely capitalize much more on the stealth play.

Edited by Trevor Boyer.6524
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Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

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12 minutes ago, Eurantien.4632 said:

Jaguar dies in fights. Risk/Reward

You'd think, but it does alright due to the pressure coming from the Ranger.

Handful of things that happen with this dynamic that keeps Jaguar alive:

  1. General CCs from the Druid keeps player's bursts at bay, particularly LB4 = Jaguar isn't exactly standing in bursts.
  2. Overwhelming pressure from stacking Barrage on top of CA Kit 5. They either stand in that and get KO'd or they gtfo of the way. Either way, they don't get much time to DPS the Jaguar.
  3. You're a Druid, you have Celestial Shadow for stealth on the Jaguar and AoE heals for the Jaguar.
  4. When you're running full Berserker/Deadeye Rune, your general DPS is dangerous. They either have to save their CDs for the Druid in and out of stealths, or they won't have what they need to deal with the Druid when it reappears to apply pressure. Trying to DPS the Jaguar just results in burning CDs and the Druid easily wins.
  5. Pet swap every 20s in general for refresh.

Go try it. Jaguar survival is fine. The only real threat you have to instant Jaguar death is Willbender & Reaper AoE. In these cases, of course we need greater pet management skills and preservation of CCs to interrupt bursts. But really, keeping the Jaguar alive is not a problem unless you're being 2v1d or 3v1d or something.

Edited by Trevor Boyer.6524
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Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

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6 hours ago, Eurantien.4632 said:

Druid is garbage, jaguar is fine.

Usually I'd agree when it comes to full power DPS but something is different lately.

I'm not really sure when it happened, over the course of which buffs/changes it occurred, but there is A LOT of damage in stacking Barrage on top of a CA Kit #5 when you're wearing like Berserker/Deadeye Rune, and running say Courage Sigil on Barrage side, that plays into Grace Of The Land pulse when you go into CA Kit #5. You end up getting a 20+ might stack by the time the final pulse hits. It's like a oneshot vs. anything that isn't at least moderately tanky.

It ends up making for a very strong side node build again, because it in conjunction with LB#4 knockbacks, the Barrage on CA Kit #5 forces another decap moment or they die trying to stay on node with you. Also now due to Protect Me! large barrier buff and the elite glyph stab pulse, you can make sure that you can take damage while dealing that damage. It works out perfectly.

The build I'm running is: Skirm 223 - Wild 122 - Druid 111 -- Longbow energy/couage - Greatsword energy/intelligence -- Berserker/Deadeye/Speed -- Smokescale/Jaguar -- 6 Troll - 7 Zephyr - 8 Pro Me - 9 Light Ref - 0 Glyph Stars

But that Skirm could easily be swapped for a Marks Mod variant that ran the currently popular Mace/Mace. It would lose a bit of stealth but gain more direct kill power. Honestly though, this LB/GS variant is winning against M/M variants. The reason why is because Barrage/CA#5/Jaguar Stalk autos on top of Grace Of Land Might stacks on top of Glyph Stab pulse. The M/M variants can't CC you fast enough to stun either you or the Jaguar, and thus they can't trigger marks mods. They lose the brawl damage exchange to the Barrage/CA#5 damage. They either stand there trying to DPS and end up on the losing end of the engagement, or they are forced to drop the burst and gtfo the node, which puts range between you and them, followed by LB#4 play, and it just can't get you off a node man.

Either way, this Stalk/Druid stuff will inevitably be new Ranger meta. Go try it, you'll see why it's just too useful to ignore. Even the frequent party detarget through Celestial Shadow is just baller in this meta that revolves so highly around performing burst ganks or securing the completion of bursts. It's a get ouf of jail free card every 20s for anyone around you. And then you have so much stealth for yourself already, you can totally afford to save your Smokescale fields for team gank prebuffs around corners or elongated peels for the team. With the way the build flows, it is really not a problem to preserve those CA Kit #3 blasts for Smokescale F2.  It's a strong frequent team stealth. 3s from the CA#3 blast itself, another +2s from CS when it activates, and then w/e other leaps/blasts the team uses on it.

It's just strong man, go try it. Feels like you're playing a DP Daredevil with a Longbow & a Greatsword. Most fun I've had on a Ranger build in years tbh.

Edited by Trevor Boyer.6524
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Gotejjeken.1267

Gotejjeken.1267

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On 7/8/2024 at 12:51 AM, Eurantien.4632 said:

Druid is garbage, jaguar is fine.

Basically this.  Druid is very tough to play now, condi variant--power belongs in the bin. 

I know, as I'm one of the psycho's that still play condi Druid, and matchmaker puts me in p2+ games--not the most fun of times 😂.

For the vid, all I really have to add is LB is dead in all game modes atm.  You can add a third pet with stealth, and it isn't making LB viable at high level play.  It's one thing to hit LB #3 on a golem and entirely another to do so in a high-pressure situation with the number of blocks, invluns and instant ports on top of you that literally every class has now.  

Depending on what they do with spear, may be different story.  I do know I finished nearly Top 100 in last NA 3v3 season and faced zero spear rangers despite facing other spear classes.  So if anything, it probably needs buffs not to reveal you every 5s before it would be of any use.  

 

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Dreggon.6598

Dreggon.6598

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On 7/8/2024 at 10:17 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

This is what we're looking at for a maximum individual stealth proc build to be able to do what is in that video:

  1. Hunter's Shot - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) - 3s stealth on a 12s CD.
  2. Swoop - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) through Smoke Cloud - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) - 3s stealth on 20s CD.
  3. Celestial Shadow - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) - 3s party stealth when exit CA Kit 20s CD.
  4. Stalk - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) - 3s stealth on 35s CD.
  5. This ends up chaining into stealth proc about once per every 6-7 seconds over the course of 60 seconds. And since those stealths are all 3s stealths, that means this build is in stealth or can be in stealth, about 50% of the time you engage it over the course of 60 seconds.
On 7/8/2024 at 10:17 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

There are a lot of variants that people could try here, such as selecting marksmanship

In combat, smokescale F2 into pet swap on marksmanship Clarion Bond is a blast finisher for more stealth. You can even do it while downed. Then you have downed 2 to interrupt a stomp, downed 3 to start your rez, and jaguar F2 to troll even harder

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Zekent.3652

Zekent.3652

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This is a nerfed build, but i think they haven't learned the lesson on why there shouldn't be more stealth, specially for builds with potential oneshots/bursts

https://clips.twitch.tv/TenderOptimisticSalmonCharlietheUnicorn-gOqDpNtQYCGNUUrH

It was even worse in the DE era.

I was expecting something about this, on today's stream, but heh... 💀

 

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Gotejjeken.1267

Gotejjeken.1267

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1 hour ago, Zekent.3652 said:

This is a nerfed build, but i think they haven't learnt the lesson on why there shouldn't be more stealth, specially for builds with potential oneshots/bursts

https://clips.twitch.tv/TenderOptimisticSalmonCharlietheUnicorn-gOqDpNtQYCGNUUrH

 

Aside from dood standing / afk on a roof and entirely misreading what was about to happen...yes every aspect of that burst soulbeast is gone. 

But the stealth field is the least of the problems (which is why it wasn't touched), I mean didn't even need it there, could have just walked up and pulled him off the roof 😂

We can argue about which direction ranger should go in, but either direction will get insane complaints on here, even with a literal top 20 ranger in the topic giving pretty valid opinions.  

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Flowki.7194

Flowki.7194

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8 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Aside from dood standing / afk on a roof and entirely misreading what was about to happen...yes every aspect of that burst soulbeast is gone. 

But the stealth field is the least of the problems (which is why it wasn't touched), I mean didn't even need it there, could have just walked up and pulled him off the roof 😂

We can argue about which direction ranger should go in, but either direction will get insane complaints on here, even with a literal top 20 ranger in the topic giving pretty valid opinions.  

Thats always been his problem though, only thinking about the top 5/10% of players. What happens for the 90/95% of us at less than elite skill level also matters.. in-fact I'd say it matters more since it is by far the largest playerbase/potential revenue.

 

I don't know who exactly Anet listen to, becuase on one hand I see some diabolical game changes that allow foolproof specs to do massive damage/sustain with casual input. On the other hand Anet still allow the top 5% elite duos to continue farming golds (and now silvers) in a failled MMR algorythm, before the complaints of win trading. Those elements have destroyed the playerbase

A: If you are average skill, and play any spec with a higher skill floor/punishment for mistakes, you will get put off playing those specs when surrounded by low skill floor/low punishment specs. That either forces people to play similar specs (which some do) or people just move away from sPVP.

B: The wide MMR makes support specs redundent, a plat support by the algorythm now has more chance of being given gold dps vs plat dps, its a loss, and why you rarely see supports at all, even less so making it to plat in soloQ. That is again a large section of the playerbase who has been alienated, who are either forced to play DPS, or simply stoped playing sPVP. Not everybody wants to play DPS, but this playerbase is now an echo chamber becuase avid dps players is all that is left. That matters becuase dps just wants to strole upto a group fight, hit some dps buttons and have something die, they are inherently bias against support, and are unlikely to advocate a game that fosters healthy support play, which keeps unhealthy dmg applications in check.

C; You get good enough on a fotm DPS, you get to plat, and then have to deal with wintrading or elite duos. Anybody who is newer to the game will have seen these storys by now, and it no doubt just makes people think "why bother". Even if you concede the above, put the time in to get good on the current fotm, you will get farmed at p1 by elite duos.. or will be forced to play duo yourself, and become the problem.

 

Will they ever fix C? I don't know.. but A and B are far worse for the game population, becuase specs like druid are too easy within the main playerbase for their impact, the same as DH, SPB, and a few other specs leaning into low risk play etc. If anet gave an actual fk about sPVP, they need to have a long hard think about why nobody is playing support, and what they can do to allow a healthy skill indexed system where support are a vital role to fill, withought it leading to 100k face tank.

 

I think if you look at the game objectively, you can see clearly why the specs are so polerised, it is either 100-0 burst specs, or nion bunker specs, with very little inbetween. One is a reaction to the other, yet the two together have led to unintersting sPVP games, linear, no real tactics, no cooperation. That is entirely a product of having no support, the middle ground which fosters team work, and increased role/spec diversity up and down the skill ladder (should mmr be restricted).

Edited by Flowki.7194
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Gotejjeken.1267

Gotejjeken.1267

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9 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

This has to be bait.

Ok then, what aspects of that haven't been nerfed?

For a starter, we have OWP, Boar, and Prelude Lash doing most of the work.  Maul looks like it doesn't even hit until afk guy is already downed.  

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