Tyrian Alliance and the story forward

[Fipmip.7219]

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It has everything to do with it, but it seems you're either missing or misunderstanding my main point and that may be why you think it's irrelevant.

I am not saying Peitha should be anything. I'm saying that there have been major NPCs - like Peitha's position - who were one and done, just as there have been major NPCs - again, like Peitha's position - that have been brought back once the plot merits their return. Peitha is not a new Dragon's Watch member. She's a major figure tied to a specific geographic location and storyline. The only major NPCs that are constantly involved in plots, are our Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch members. Every other NPC will come and go as the plot demands - Jennah hasn't been involved since Season 3, but didn't just vanish from the game forever, as she's returning for Janthir Wilds.

This was why I used the characters I did - and if you actually read them, you'd note Almorra did return after the core storyline - she returned for a moment in Season 3, she returned for the entire Kralkatorrik arc in Season 4 that was directly tied to her, and she was even part of Icebrood Saga. The very fact you didn't catch this, despite Almorra being the first example I used, shows that you didn't even properly read my response let alone understand what I was saying.

My point is: Currently, we have literally absolutely no idea whether Peitha will return for Janthir Wilds - or the subsequent expansion - or not. You're acting like she absolutely won't and will never return ever again, and acting like I think this is okay, but neither is true. But it's also fine if she doesn't - because not all major NPCs of Plot A will return, and if they do, they only will because it makes sense in the plot.

So now you're saying Peitha can be anything, so i guess you're amending your original statement. My argument is that hypothetically, she could be a recurring character tied to an overarching story and a "final boss" so to speak, much the same way the dragons were in the background for the whole game. so it seems like either you're just talking past me about something irrelevant and don't understand what I'm saying, or your entire point is that "these other people are one and done and just make cameos later so Peitha should be the same" which is... nonsense. the way I'm "acting" seems to be some sort of strawman you've built in your head.

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

What?

Both statements here make no sense. Kryptis are the only organization among demons as I said, and they've never been involved with other realms - and recruiting other realms makes no sense no matter how you spin it, because they are not Kryptis. You're vastly oversimplifying the situation, and basically treating everything "demon" as some amorphous blob of the same thing when it isn't - kryptis are fundamentally different from other demons in two key features - first that they feed off of emotions and dreams; second in that they're not blatantly and completely evil and hostile to mortals - which I had brought up is one of the key definitions of the word "demon" and why kryptis being demons is a massive contradiction.

And it's not like one can simply walk from Nayos to the Underworld or something, even if the demons there that only hold interest in consuming mortal souls would ally with the benevolent Kryptis.

And I won't even bother with the White Mantle and Purists thing - there's very little reason for two xenophobic supremacist groups of opposite ethnicities to ally when they literally view the other group as inferior and not worth dealing with. That's like having the KKK allying with a black supremacist group...

im using them as an example because groups can ally in the face of common cause - if the mantle had come to cantha or the purists to maguuma, for whatever reason. As for the kryptis and the other demons, you said yourself that nothing stops them from working together. so what is it that is so difficult to understand? like i said, the races of tyria can unite. do you want to call tyrians an amorphous blob? all demons are interested in human souls, and their exact motives and intelligence and potential for organization have room to be fleshed out. if they can come to tyria even though it has a shield around it, they can certainly communicate across realms. indeed they may even be interested in doing so due to it's weakened state.

there's also not much to say the kryptis are going to be benevolent from now on, only some are. Many just wanted to be free of eparch who was trying to eat them, and willing to work with the astral ward to do so. and indeed many didnt, right up to the end. maybe because they actually believed in eparch and wanted what he wanted. now with peitha in charge, they might be more willing to join her cause whatever it may be since she's supposedly not eating everything. maybe she'll realize eparch was right and start trying to achieve the same thing. also, your definition of 'demon' is irrelevant in the grand scheme, since that is just the name for the mist entities in guild wars and not a concrete dictionary description of them. but if peitha and the kryptis were to turn, that might actually fit your idea of them better.

Again this is entirely hypothetical. I'm not acting like this is what is going or not going to happen. I'm just defending it as not the worst idea.

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 7/14/2024 at 11:36 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

There would likely have eventually been a showdown with Joko, Balthazar wanting to kill dragons just made it happen now.

Personally, I liked the Joko arc best from all the various villains we've battled over the years. The whole "snuff the immortal-god-king beloved and worshiped by huge parts of the population" thing confronted the Commander with consequences and blowback that hadn't been in the forefront before, which I really liked from a basic storytelling perspective. Joko himself was very well-portrayed in the story both visually and the voice acting. Yes, the relentless Marvel-style snark got old, but honestly that's almost unavoidable in any popular media anymore.

23 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

So far if the Astral Ward ends up a long term organization for the Commander, we established the long term organization and through SotO and also Janthir Wilds, we are establishing the aftermath about how the world is dealing with the aftermath of the Elder Dragon War with the Tyrian Alliance being part of the effects.

Frankly I kind of expect/hope there will be at least a few rather...pointed...questions asked about the AW by alarmed representatives of the nations and Orders, given that what we know about their fractal-but-not-quite experiments puts their actions (if not their motivations) near the amoral level of the Inquest. Why, exactly, are the former Pact Commander and a member of Destiny's Edge working with this questionable outfit? And wait a minute, what was that about helping literal demons?

Edited July 17 by Teknomancer.4895
grammar

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

So now you're saying Peitha can be anything, so i guess you're amending clarifying your original statement. 

Fixed that for you. You misinterpreted what Konig was saying, and now you're acting like his position has changed, when it's just that he's corrected your misinterpretation and, perhaps, taken down your strawman.

3 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

im using them as an example because groups can ally in the face of common cause - if the mantle had come to cantha or the purists to maguuma, for whatever reason.

An issue you have here is that villains have their own objectives and goals outside of simply causing problems for the protagonists.

Would Purists ally with a Tyrian human supremacist faction? No, because the Purists are specifically Canthan supremacists. They're just as hateful to humans arriving from outside of Cantha as to any other race. There's also the added wrinkle that the White Mantle "gods" are known to be a nonhuman race, while if the Purists worship gods at all rather than their ideology being their religion, it'd be the normal human pantheon. At best, they might have a Ribbentrop-Molotov style accord of agreeing what each other's spheres of influence will be and perhaps limited cooperation against anyone who attempts to disrupt that when convenient. But I think the Purists would be just as happy to make such a deal with the Krytan monarchy if the Krytan monarchy would accept it (which they seemed to have done pre-Zhaitan), and if the White Mantle had retaken Kryta, they'd probably have no preference for a Purist government in Cantha over a non-Purist one.

This sort of thing was also why there was some pretty significant eye-rolling with the Toxic Alliance - because information we had about the Nightmare Court and the Krait suggested they'd never ally with each other (the Krait were so arrogant that they believed they didn't need allies, and the Krait were specifically one of the threats that the Nightmare Court wanted to make the sylvari more ruthless in order to fight). This was somewhat resolved by ArenaNet specifying that the Toxic Alliance was formed of splinter groups that were hated by the larger bodies of both the Nightmare Court and the Krait.

I think you'd have similar issues with demons. Most of the demon armies we fight in GW1 are probably no longer going concerns now, but there's really no reason that the Shadow Army, for instance, would make common cause with the Kryptis. And as Konig intimates, it's possible that calling the Kryptis demons in the first place was a bit of a misnomer - albeit an understandable one, because at the time the assumption that the Kryptis were just as inimical as, say, Terrorweb Dryders did fit the available evidence. Maybe at some stage there will be some entity forming an army of demons to drive at Tyria. But I don't think such an entity would simply absorb the Kryptis en masse into their ranks... although it might be able to pick up a cadre of former loyalists that refuse to submit to Peitha's rule.

Edited July 17 by draxynnic.3719

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

So now you're saying Peitha can be anything, so i guess you're amending your original statement.

I didn't amend anything. Instead, as Drax said, I was trying to clarify for you. I'd recommend you re-read my posts, but I can see this is becoming yet another case of "I'm not willing to be convinced that my first perception of your stance might not have been correct", so I'll dip out now.

No point in having a discussion with someone who is going to act like that.

[Fipmip.7219]

On 7/15/2024 at 9:53 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

That said, completely reverting the value of Peitha's plot is a horrible writing decision that basically says kitten you to all the build up in the SotO arc and - more importantly - the fans' opinions of it. Like or dislike it, it's never a good idea to do an unwarranted sudden 180 in a storyline.

Ah my bad. you said this, then later 'clarified' that peitha can actually be anything. Guess I got confused. Like I said, I'm just defending my original stance on why it is, in fact, not a terrible idea. If that's not what you're saying, I'm not sure why you responded in the first place. maybe you should clarify that. I suspect you were just talking past me however.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

This sort of thing was also why there was some pretty significant eye-rolling with the Toxic Alliance - because information we had about the Nightmare Court and the Krait suggested they'd never ally with each other (the Krait were so arrogant that they believed they didn't need allies, and the Krait were specifically one of the threats that the Nightmare Court wanted to make the sylvari more ruthless in order to fight). This was somewhat resolved by ArenaNet specifying that the Toxic Alliance was formed of splinter groups that were hated by the larger bodies of both the Nightmare Court and the Krait.

I think you'd have similar issues with demons. Most of the demon armies we fight in GW1 are probably no longer going concerns now, but there's really no reason that the Shadow Army, for instance, would make common cause with the Kryptis. And as Konig intimates, it's possible that calling the Kryptis demons in the first place was a bit of a misnomer - albeit an understandable one, because at the time the assumption that the Kryptis were just as inimical as, say, Terrorweb Dryders did fit the available evidence. Maybe at some stage there will be some entity forming an army of demons to drive at Tyria. But I don't think such an entity would simply absorb the Kryptis en masse into their ranks... although it might be able to pick up a cadre of former loyalists that refuse to submit to Peitha's rule.

I mean yes exactly. We can speculate there are multifacets within the demons, much like there were loyalist and rebel kryptis. its no stretch to image many have goal of invading tyria and getting easy access to souls. I'm not sure the shadow army are demons, since they are the forces of menzies and may have been created by him. in any case, there could be many more demon realms than those of torment and dreams. It would certainly be a spectacle to see all these horrors working together.

Edited July 17 by Fipmip.7219

[EdwinLi.1284]

9 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

 

I mean yes exactly. We can speculate there are multifacets within the demons, much like there were loyalist and rebel kryptis. its no stretch to image many have goal of invading tyria and getting easy access to souls. I'm not sure the shadow army are demons, since they are the forces of menzies and may have been created by him. in any case, there could be many more demon realms than those of torment and dreams. It would certainly be a spectacle to see all these horrors working together.

This side of GW2 topic may become a bit more complicated and yet simple at the sametime situation if the side lore about Mursaat being Mist origin ends up true. 

Tyrian view on Mist origin creatures has mostly been compacting all as Demon race due to how the amount of encounters for Mist origin creatures have normally been only Demons. Rarely did Tyria encounter something naturally born from the Mist to be categorized as not a Demon but something else. Only other type of Mist origin beings that are well known are the Human Gods (well a certain number of them) but I am not really certain if they truely mist origin or not since we never got GW1 Utopia which was going to explore a bit about the origins of the Gods in the Mist.

 

As for the way the Demons view each other by species, the way the "demon" race view each other is more like how Humans, Norns, Charr, Asura, and Syvlari view each other. Their different way of life may or may not match each other to a point some will obviously view each other more as enemies while other may see each other more as allies. 

The Kryptis lore about what they were like in the past before Eparch changed them tells alot about how their current violent nature was more on Eparch's influence. They still acted like "demons" by feeding on the dreams and emotions of mortal beings but they had no reason for harming them since their source of food being dreams and emotions are at their best through letting them live their own life without direct interference. For their views, they still see the mortal races no differently from how we see dogs, cats, cows, and etc which varies based on society and personal views. Peitha treats the commander more like how we treat a dog or cat while General Nephus is still between the lines of treating the commander the same way a human treat another human but on the edge of a human treat a well trained dog or a dolphin. 

The more aggressive species of course that needed to directly feed on the souls of mortal beings are more aggressive because that is their source of food. They cannot obtain that food unless they actually kill the person or until they enter the Underworld. 

There is also difference between intelligence as well since certain species are smart enough to develop a civilization like the Krytpis but some maybe more beast like by nature so they act more like animals just following their instincts. 

Edited July 17 by EdwinLi.1284

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

16 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

Ah my bad. you said this, then later 'clarified' that peitha can actually be anything. Guess I got confused. Like I said, I'm just defending my original stance on why it is, in fact, not a terrible idea. If that's not what you're saying, I'm not sure why you responded in the first place. maybe you should clarify that. I suspect you were just talking past me however.

I have always been directly responding to this:

On 7/14/2024 at 7:51 PM, Fipmip.7219 said:

as for peitha, her involvement overthrowing eparch builds up to... what exactly? they'll be an ally from now on? or just never get mentioned again?

Which I was directly quoting when I made that list of characters you claimed was irrelevant. Peitha could develop to being multiple things, and she can just as well fall off the face of the plot by never being brought up again - because she was a major character of SotO and SotO alone.

And to be clear, I never once said "Peitha can be anything". I said:

On 7/16/2024 at 12:49 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I am not saying Peitha should be anything. I'm saying that there have been major NPCs - like Peitha's position - who were one and done, just as there have been major NPCs - again, like Peitha's position - that have been brought back once the plot merits their return. Peitha is not a new Dragon's Watch member. She's a major figure tied to a specific geographic location and storyline. The only major NPCs that are constantly involved in plots, are our Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch members. Every other NPC will come and go as the plot demands - Jennah hasn't been involved since Season 3, but didn't just vanish from the game forever, as she's returning for Janthir Wilds.

Which is to again say: Peitha's story as it stands ended with Secrets of the Obscure. She is not a replacement for Dragon's Watch, she was a replacement for Joon, for Bottica, for Zaiem, etc. A major NPC tied to the current plot, not a major NPC tied to the Commander. And as such, once the plot is over, so is her spotlight. She might return when the plot and budget allows it, but until then, she's off the screen.

 

This said: it would still be terrible writing for her to do a complete 180 out of nowhere while off-screen, and even if it was done on-screen, it would be a slap in the face to the entire plot of SotO which was painting her at literally every step, as A) not as ruthless as other Kryptis leaders left alive after Eparch's purge who prefers keeping her prey alive over killing them, B) not an idiot to antagonize the Commander (this is key, especially since she outright admits how unexpectedly powerful and useful the Commander was compared to her expectations), and C) being constantly monitored by the Astral Ward to ensure that she keeps to her words.

Turning her evil with an alliance of non-Kryptis demons requires for:

1. The Astral Ward and Wizard's Court to be utterly incompetent at the job they've held for up to 3,000 years and be literally watching Peitha's every move yet somehow not notice she is meeting with blatantly evil demons for the sake of betraying the Astral Ward and invading Tyria.
2. Peitha to be juggling the most massive idiot ball to first hand witness the strength, prowess, and charisma of the Pact Commander and decide "why yes, I will make this overpowering individual who is the most critical piece of my ascension and has no reason to ever encounter me in their short-compared-to-mine lifetime my enemy".
3. All the build up in SotO to be literally tossed out the door followed by an 1800s era stool bucket thus not only completely ignoring the character development you stressed but stomping on it as well by actively contradicting it.

Personally speaking, I cannot fathom how one could think a plot that requires everyone involved to be utter morons to be good. Especially Peitha who, once more, personally witnessed and attested to the effectiveness of the Commander.

Quite frankly if Peitha was playing the long game and intending to turn on the Astral Ward after her near failure to stop Eparch, she'd at least wait a century before doing so - let the Commander die of old age first.

16 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

I mean yes exactly. We can speculate there are multifacets within the demons, much like there were loyalist and rebel kryptis. its no stretch to image many have goal of invading tyria and getting easy access to souls. I'm not sure the shadow army are demons, since they are the forces of menzies and may have been created by him. in any case, there could be many more demon realms than those of torment and dreams. It would certainly be a spectacle to see all these horrors working together.

There are indeed multifacets within the demons - that's the division of "ethnicity" I talked about. And all those facets are - except Kryptis - unremarkably evil towards mortals. All of them, more or less, have the goal of invading Tyria and getting access to souls - this is as mentioned in this thread, one of the key features of what defines a Mist-born entity as "demon".

The issue comes in them creating a sudden alliance and hierarchy when, outside of Eparch's actions of actively mimicking Tyrian society in his obsession the Wizard's Tower, such is never known to occur naturally. The closest we get are the children of the Dreadspawn Maw being fairly united, but they're just listening to mommy broodmother. And repeating a plot point of "oh no, demons are suddenly a united force making them a major villainous threat" multiple times is... boring. This is why people tired of the Elder Dragon plot - because every time we fought an Elder Dragon, it basically amounted to the same story beats of A) learn of the threat, B) gather an alliance to battle the dragon, C) hit a major snag and then work to overcome it, D) kill the dragon with its unique weakness.

It could be a spectacle to see them all working together but the key question is... why would they. Even their individual facets are barely united.

And now here's the thing. Nightfall is quite literally that "spectacle to see them all working together" because we had Dhuum's Titans and Dryders, Menzies' Shadow Army, the Dreadspawn Maw's Stygians / Torment Demons, and Abaddon's Margonites working together because their leaders were in an alliance. So you just want this v2.0? I feel that would just demerit the value of that plot, since it's just a repeat - granted a repeat 15 years later, but there's enough criticism over PoF basically being Nightfall 2.0 that we don't need Nightfall 2.0 but this time without the god. Not that the exact situation can occur given two of the four are dead, and another is sealed away completely, and the fourth is a fate unknown implied dead.

[Fipmip.7219]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I have always been directly responding to this:

Which I was directly quoting when I made that list of characters you claimed was irrelevant. Peitha could develop to being multiple things, and she can just as well fall off the face of the plot by never being brought up again - because she was a major character of SotO and SotO alone.

And to be clear, I never once said "Peitha can be anything". I said:

Which is to again say: Peitha's story as it stands ended with Secrets of the Obscure. She is not a replacement for Dragon's Watch, she was a replacement for Joon, for Bottica, for Zaiem, etc. A major NPC tied to the current plot, not a major NPC tied to the Commander. And as such, once the plot is over, so is her spotlight. She might return when the plot and budget allows it, but until then, she's off the screen.

Yeah i mean i got confused here because it's pointless to say this when you have no idea what they intend to do with the character. I was just speculating what they could do, "maybe they could involve pietha, maybe not, here's what they could do" type thing. those other characters dont really do anything to make that impossible so that's what i mean when i say they aren't relevant. you claim "her plot is over" but there's nothing to stop it continuing if they want. I mean I'm not even the only one in this thread that thinks she's probably devious.

 

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

This said: it would still be terrible writing for her to do a complete 180 out of nowhere while off-screen, and even if it was done on-screen, it would be a slap in the face to the entire plot of SotO which was painting her at literally every step, as A) not as ruthless as other Kryptis leaders left alive after Eparch's purge who prefers keeping her prey alive over killing them, B) not an idiot to antagonize the Commander (this is key, especially since she outright admits how unexpectedly powerful and useful the Commander was compared to her expectations), and C) being constantly monitored by the Astral Ward to ensure that she keeps to her words.

Turning her evil with an alliance of non-Kryptis demons requires for:

1. The Astral Ward and Wizard's Court to be utterly incompetent at the job they've held for up to 3,000 years and be literally watching Peitha's every move yet somehow not notice she is meeting with blatantly evil demons for the sake of betraying the Astral Ward and invading Tyria.
2. Peitha to be juggling the most massive idiot ball to first hand witness the strength, prowess, and charisma of the Pact Commander and decide "why yes, I will make this overpowering individual who is the most critical piece of my ascension and has no reason to ever encounter me in their short-compared-to-mine lifetime my enemy".
3. All the build up in SotO to be literally tossed out the door followed by an 1800s era stool bucket thus not only completely ignoring the character development you stressed but stomping on it as well by actively contradicting it.

Personally speaking, I cannot fathom how one could think a plot that requires everyone involved to be utter morons to be good. Especially Peitha who, once more, personally witnessed and attested to the effectiveness of the Commander.

Quite frankly if Peitha was playing the long game and intending to turn on the Astral Ward after her near failure to stop Eparch, she'd at least wait a century before doing so - let the Commander die of old age first.

There are indeed multifacets within the demons - that's the division of "ethnicity" I talked about. And all those facets are - except Kryptis - unremarkably evil towards mortals. All of them, more or less, have the goal of invading Tyria and getting access to souls - this is as mentioned in this thread, one of the key features of what defines a Mist-born entity as "demon".

The issue comes in them creating a sudden alliance and hierarchy when, outside of Eparch's actions of actively mimicking Tyrian society in his obsession the Wizard's Tower, such is never known to occur naturally. The closest we get are the children of the Dreadspawn Maw being fairly united, but they're just listening to mommy broodmother. And repeating a plot point of "oh no, demons are suddenly a united force making them a major villainous threat" multiple times is... boring. This is why people tired of the Elder Dragon plot - because every time we fought an Elder Dragon, it basically amounted to the same story beats of A) learn of the threat, B) gather an alliance to battle the dragon, C) hit a major snag and then work to overcome it, D) kill the dragon with its unique weakness.

It could be a spectacle to see them all working together but the key question is... why would they. Even their individual facets are barely united.

And now here's the thing. Nightfall is quite literally that "spectacle to see them all working together" because we had Dhuum's Titans and Dryders, Menzies' Shadow Army, the Dreadspawn Maw's Stygians / Torment Demons, and Abaddon's Margonites working together because their leaders were in an alliance. So you just want this v2.0? I feel that would just demerit the value of that plot, since it's just a repeat - granted a repeat 15 years later, but there's enough criticism over PoF basically being Nightfall 2.0 that we don't need Nightfall 2.0 but this time without the god. Not that the exact situation can occur given two of the four are dead, and another is sealed away completely, and the fourth is a fate unknown implied dead.

alright so 1, she's not ruthless like eparch and some other kryptis and she's more dubious in nature. imo that could be a catalyst for an even stronger unity over the kryptis and possibly other demons, since she seems a lot smarter and doesnt rule in fear.  2. it's dumb to say people wont challenge the wayfinder. when has that ever stopped any villain before or since? and 3. what exactly would the astral ward do about it if peitha decides to turn? isgarren himself was reluctant to enter nayos to help the rebellion. and supposedly he only let a few ward through. there would be warnings sure, but warnings dont stop wars.

as to why the demons would ally, well thanks for answering your own question. I never played gw1 so I wouldnt mind at all. it certainly proves that demons do have the capacity for it given a strong leader. We dont exactly have access to the daily demon that tells us who is in charge of what, so perhaps there are strong entities within the realms willing to communicate and build armies. As we've already discussed, to death at this point, the story doesnt have to be continuous demons from now on, much like it wasnt with the dragons. there were side characters, side areas, side conflicts that all kept the pacing varied.

Edited July 18 by Fipmip.7219

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It could be a spectacle to see them all working together but the key question is... why would they. Even their individual facets are barely united.

This. Evil is typically defined by some form of selfishness, they're not motivated to unite in the fight against good for the common evil unless they perceive that good has grown to be such a dominant force that uniting is necessary for survival... and random Mists demons are probably not concerned about Tyrian armies emerging en masse to invade the demon realms. Demons attacking Tyria are likely to be doing so in pursuit of some resource, which is more likely to make them view each other as competitors, unless they're looking for different things (eg one group feeds on souls, one on magic, one on flesh, and so on).

[EdwinLi.1284]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

This. Evil is typically defined by some form of selfishness, they're not motivated to unite in the fight against good for the common evil unless they perceive that good has grown to be such a dominant force that uniting is necessary for survival... and random Mists demons are probably not concerned about Tyrian armies emerging en masse to invade the demon realms. Demons attacking Tyria are likely to be doing so in pursuit of some resource, which is more likely to make them view each other as competitors, unless they're looking for different things (eg one group feeds on souls, one on magic, one on flesh, and so on).

Not to mention the Mist is very very large and connected to countless other worlds. We just do not need to deal with that side of the lore because Tyria is connected to such a small area of the Mist the only thing it has to worry about are demons from the regions connected to Tyria. 

Interests in Tyria is probably very small and mostly been targeted out of personal gain rather than actual needs since Demons do not want to lose their food source or their species are just acting out of instinct like a animal in a ecosystem.

Edited July 18 by EdwinLi.1284

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

22 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

Yeah i mean i got confused here because it's pointless to say this when you have no idea what they intend to do with the character. I was just speculating what they could do, "maybe they could involve pietha, maybe not, here's what they could do" type thing. those other characters dont really do anything to make that impossible so that's what i mean when i say they aren't relevant. you claim "her plot is over" but there's nothing to stop it continuing if they want. I mean I'm not even the only one in this thread that thinks she's probably devious.

You made it sound like not using her again would be a waste of her character, that she wouldn't have character development.

While the Nayos arc wasn't the best (largely due to pacing), she had character development during it. And it wouldn't be a waste of her character to not use her again, because yes her plot is over. Her plot was literally "revolt against Eparch and establish a new era for the Kryptis and non-hostilities with Tyria". Anything more wouldn't be her continuing the plot, it'd be a new plot with her. Just as Almorra's plot was over with Kralkatorrik's death - just as SotO wasn't continuing Zojja's plot, but adding a new one on top of the plot that was abandoned by not using her in Season 4 (revenge for Snaff).

22 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

alright so 1, she's not ruthless like eparch and some other kryptis and she's more dubious in nature. imo that could be a catalyst for an even stronger unity over the kryptis and possibly other demons, since she seems a lot smarter and doesnt rule in fear.  2. it's dumb to say people wont challenge the wayfinder. when has that ever stopped any villain before or since? and 3. what exactly would the astral ward do about it if peitha decides to turn? isgarren himself was reluctant to enter nayos to help the rebellion. and supposedly he only let a few ward through. there would be warnings sure, but warnings dont stop wars.

as to why the demons would ally, well thanks for answering your own question. I never played gw1 so I wouldnt mind at all. it certainly proves that demons do have the capacity for it given a strong leader. We dont exactly have access to the daily demon that tells us who is in charge of what, so perhaps there are strong entities within the realms willing to communicate and build armies. As we've already discussed, to death at this point, the story doesnt have to be continuous demons from now on, much like it wasnt with the dragons. there were side characters, side areas, side conflicts that all kept the pacing varied.

1. Her being "more dubious in nature" isn't really reason to believe she would seek out other demons for alliance, or for other demons to seek or agree with her for alliance. Peitha isn't stupid, but she's also compassionate - for her kind especially - and that would lead against allying with selfishly cruel beings who are basically Eparch but without leadership status. Just as Peitha refused to absorb Eparch's power at the end of SotO, she will refuse to ally with all the dozens of AU Eparchs and Kanaxais and Deimoses that are the other demon factions. And she will indeed have to be an idiot - not "dubious in nature" - to so immediately turn her back on the alliance with the Astral Ward and Pact Commander she just made.
2. Yes, people will antagonize and attack the Pact Commander. But these people are not those who first hand witnessed the Pact Commander's capabilities for themselves, used them for their own benefit, and got surprised by the effectiveness of the Pact Commander far exceeding the expectations established. I am not saying "it is dumb to challenge the Commander". I am saying "it is dumb for Peitha specifically, after establishing her awe for the Commander's strength and acknowledging her status would have been impossible without them, to challenge the Commander" - especially when she can just wait out the Commander's natural lifespan.
3. Completely different situations. Isgarren was hesitant to enter Nayos while Eparch had domination of the land, and only joined personally once that upper hand was lost. Peitha is far weaker than Eparch, even if she rules the Kryptis it isn't a perfect rule yet. But far more importantly, if you paid attention in the final instance of SotO, you'd know that part of the deal made was that the Astral Ward would have a strong establishment in Nayos. To make a point of comparison - Nayos is now not too different from Berlin after World War II, with the exception of being divided but importantly with Allied forces all over the place though having its own governance that's being very closely monitored.
4. I didn't answer my own question - because my "answer" was literally "the situation that could lead to it is fundamentally non-existent because everything that could cause it is long dead". Corpses don't make alliances (technically not even corpses, as Abaddon's soul was consumed leaving nothing but faint traces of his magic behind).
   "it certainly proves that demons do have the capacity for it given a strong leader." - Except it doesn't because the leaders were not demons, but fallen gods. Unless you count Mommy Dreadspawn Maw, who is less of a leader and more just a parent sending her thousand children to battle.

[Fipmip.7219]

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You made it sound like not using her again would be a waste of her character, that she wouldn't have character development.

While the Nayos arc wasn't the best (largely due to pacing), she had character development during it. And it wouldn't be a waste of her character to not use her again, because yes her plot is over. Her plot was literally "revolt against Eparch and establish a new era for the Kryptis and non-hostilities with Tyria". Anything more wouldn't be her continuing the plot, it'd be a new plot with her. Just as Almorra's plot was over with Kralkatorrik's death - just as SotO wasn't continuing Zojja's plot, but adding a new one on top of the plot that was abandoned by not using her in Season 4 (revenge for Snaff).

This is so mind numbingly semantic. also what character development? there was some minor stuff with her considering your potential to be an ally, the rest is just about overthrowing eparch the whole way through. there was no evolution to her motivations or character at all. She had zero reservations about killing her own family, and was completely resolute in her goals. deep characters aren't anet's strong suit. which is why imo it would be a good idea to use her again. now that she's achieved her goal, what now? she says she cares about the kryptis. but eparch, and other members of her species, hint at the fact that their species has needs for survival. was that just a nothing burger?

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

1. Her being "more dubious in nature" isn't really reason to believe she would seek out other demons for alliance, or for other demons to seek or agree with her for alliance. Peitha isn't stupid, but she's also compassionate - for her kind especially - and that would lead against allying with selfishly cruel beings who are basically Eparch but without leadership status. Just as Peitha refused to absorb Eparch's power at the end of SotO, she will refuse to ally with all the dozens of AU Eparchs and Kanaxais and Deimoses that are the other demon factions. And she will indeed have to be an idiot - not "dubious in nature" - to so immediately turn her back on the alliance with the Astral Ward and Pact Commander she just made.
2. Yes, people will antagonize and attack the Pact Commander. But these people are not those who first hand witnessed the Pact Commander's capabilities for themselves, used them for their own benefit, and got surprised by the effectiveness of the Pact Commander far exceeding the expectations established. I am not saying "it is dumb to challenge the Commander". I am saying "it is dumb for Peitha specifically, after establishing her awe for the Commander's strength and acknowledging her status would have been impossible without them, to challenge the Commander" - especially when she can just wait out the Commander's natural lifespan.
3. Completely different situations. Isgarren was hesitant to enter Nayos while Eparch had domination of the land, and only joined personally once that upper hand was lost. Peitha is far weaker than Eparch, even if she rules the Kryptis it isn't a perfect rule yet. But far more importantly, if you paid attention in the final instance of SotO, you'd know that part of the deal made was that the Astral Ward would have a strong establishment in Nayos. To make a point of comparison - Nayos is now not too different from Berlin after World War II, with the exception of being divided but importantly with Allied forces all over the place though having its own governance that's being very closely monitored.
4. I didn't answer my own question - because my "answer" was literally "the situation that could lead to it is fundamentally non-existent because everything that could cause it is long dead". Corpses don't make alliances (technically not even corpses, as Abaddon's soul was consumed leaving nothing but faint traces of his magic behind).
   "it certainly proves that demons do have the capacity for it given a strong leader." - Except it doesn't because the leaders were not demons, but fallen gods. Unless you count Mommy Dreadspawn Maw, who is less of a leader and more just a parent sending her thousand children to battle.

 

a lot of this is built on the idea that what comes before is a concrete rulebook for that which comes next. who says that only gods can rule demons? right now, a demon is in control of the kryptis. like i said, there's still a lot of room for exploration into demons (the mist entities, not the dictionary definition) like what they do, what realms exist and what structures exist within them. and is the astral ward the size of the US? you say i should pay attention, but all dagda says is that the astral ward will maintain a presence. nothing about it being strong at all. nayos isnt berlin, hell its not even germany.  it's an entire world of savage monsters. a world that intended to invade all of tyria. you're making assumptions about things that aren't explicitly revealed.

also this point about the wayfinder being so strong as to not be messed with is ill thought out. they've never actually soloed any of these gods or dragons, it was always with the aid of an army, a dragon, a massive influx of external power, etc. balthazar straight up waved his hand and killed us at one point. there's no reason to believe a villain would never attempt to tip the balance of power in their favour. the idea of a final showdown 1 on 1 is something villains rarely take into account. remember to them, this is all real and climactic showdowns arent even supposed to happen. recurring villains are a very common idea, and they've occured in gw before. They dont take deus ex machina into account and they expect things will be different this time. hell maybe one day they will be different.

I agree peitha seems compassionate. but remember that the nayosian way is a savage one.  I only played through the story once, but i believe this is noted not only by eparch but also his generals and peitha herself. before eparch, there was mosyn, who was said to lead an artful society.  but what was that society actually like? did they still eat eachother? does peitha want that to stop? anakin loved padme to the point it drove him to the dark side. who knows what peitha will do to try and build a kryptis society? perhaps she will see an invasion and enslavement of tyria as necessary to stop her people from feeding on eachother. I'd say that's a pretty interesting motivation, with built in flaws and tragedy.

Edited July 19 by Fipmip.7219

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

10 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

who says that only gods can rule demons? right now, a demon is in control of the kryptis. like i said, there's still a lot of room for exploration into demons

GW1 and GW2 both explore quite a bit into demons, to the point that we have literally encountered thousands of demons even in just GW1.

Kryptis are stated at the beginning of SotO to be a rare experience. The very literal first thing we are told about Kryptis is that they're organized demons - an unusual experience.

<Character name>: What are these things? Demons?

Frode: Kryptis.

Zojja: Who are demons, so technically speaking, you're not incorrect!

<Character name>: Kryptis?

Frode: The Kryptis are... organized. They aren't your average night terror.

They aren't your average demon. But do it again and again and again and it's no longer uncommon, it's common - average. It's in the literal definition of the Kryptis.

And aside from Kryptis, the only organized demons - out of, once more, literally thousands of demons - are those ruled by fallen gods and whatever Menzies is (though Shadow Army aren't really demons but shadow elemental constructs cursed to fight Balthazar forever, but they're demonic enough for Tyrians to classify them as demons - same with Titans, Nightmares, and Margonites).

So who says that only (fallen) gods can rule demons?

Empirical evidence over 20 years, 16 storylines, and interactions with mid-hundreds of uniquely named individuals and thousands of generically named individuals does.

Outside of those led by Abaddon, Dhuum, Menzies, and Eparch, all four cases stressed to be uncommon, the demons encountered are all solo cases or in very small clusters (~dozen generic mooks).

10 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

also this point about the wayfinder being so strong as to not be messed with is ill thought out. they've never actually soloed any of these gods or dragons, it was always with the aid of an army, a dragon, a massive influx of external power, etc.

You're missing the point. Again, I'm not talking about your villain of the storyline antagonizing the Commander or thinking they have a chance.

I am talking about Peitha, specifically Peitha, who first hand witnessed the Commander's capabilities and praised it.

Yes, the Commander never solo'd anything. But one's might doesn't come solely in their ability to solo enemies. And Peitha is no god or dragon, she's far lower on that hierarchy just as Eparch is. She is even lower on that hierarchy than Eparch, even.

And to a being that lives thousands of years, waiting a century to let the Commander die of old age isn't a wait at all. Especially when her reign isn't even fully solidified - as General Zantharon says:

<Character name>: You believe Peitha can rule the Kryptis, then?

General Zantharon: It is power and authority that rules in Nayos, Tyrian. As long as she holds them, the Kryptis will follow.

General Zantharon: But do not think that Peitha alone is capable. It is not providence that has placed the crown atop her head.

General Zantharon: If she fails, it is a minor setback. The Throne of Midnight can seat another.

11 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

I agree peitha seems compassionate. but remember that the nayosian way is a savage one.  I only played through the story once, but i believe this is noted not only by eparch but also his generals and peitha herself. before eparch, there was mosyn, who was said to lead an artful society.  but what was that society actually like? did they still eat eachother? does peitha want that to stop? anakin loved padme to the point it drove him to the dark side. who knows what peitha will do to try and build a kryptis society? perhaps she will see an invasion and enslavement of tyria as necessary to stop her people from feeding on eachother. I'd say that's a pretty interesting motivation, with built in flaws and tragedy.

Sure, it's a savage one. And yes, Peitha does want to stop the cannibalism - since that is literally the primary reason for her revolt, not the power (which she rejected) or position of ruling, but to stop Eparch's cannibalism and cruelty. Peitha is less savage than most and, more importantly, she is smart. As she says herself:

<Character name>: How do you feel about the Astral Ward being stationed in Nayos?

Peitha: There was never any other choice. They contributed their blood to our freedom, and they are too strong to refuse.

Peitha: Isgarren worries about war returning. if this reassures him, so be it.

Peitha: Besides, you Tyrians really are delicious. If they ever become a problem, we'll simply have a feast.

If the Astral Ward betrays her, she'll have a feast. She's quite open about that. But she's also open that she wants a better life for kryptis, one where they aren't starving or killing each other. This is what her character development in Nayos is about - as hard as it may be to spot it due to the rushed nature of the narrative and shortness of each update. The reason why Irja, Heitor, Labris' sacrifice, and the empty room in the palace are all part of the narrative is to show Peitha's character and how she's changing from someone who'll toss away her brothers because Eparch twisted them into evil, to regretting she had to kill off more of her family (Heitor), couldn't save innocent kryptis right in front of her (Irja), failed to see her enemies as more than just ruthless barbarians (Labris), and denounces the act of killing her own kind for power (Eparch and that room).

And if you do any of the post-story achievements, you'll see that the Astral Ward are quite open with helping the kryptis get food - such as Tyrian Taste Testing.

Peitha is very open about wanting to make this alliance work. It will take years for her to turn her back on Tyria, certainly not so rapidly as to be part of the current over-expansion-storyline if there is such a thing.

At best, this is a plot for Guild Wars 3.

[Gazrul.3086]

On 7/18/2024 at 2:49 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And now here's the thing. Nightfall is quite literally that "spectacle to see them all working together" because we had Dhuum's Titans and Dryders, Menzies' Shadow Army, the Dreadspawn Maw's Stygians / Torment Demons, and Abaddon's Margonites working together because their leaders were in an alliance.

A bit of a side question, but which demons would you say that Kanaxai guy from the Silent Surf fractal belonged to?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

On 7/18/2024 at 11:04 PM, Fipmip.7219 said:

now that she's achieved her goal, what now? she says she cares about the kryptis. but eparch, and other members of her species, hint at the fact that their species has needs for survival. was that just a nothing burger?

The only real "need" Krytpis have for survival is being able to feed on the dreams on Tyrians, something they can do from Nayos without it affecting the Tyrians directly. Eparch just stopped them from being able to do that with his big machines. Now that his machines are destroyed, and Peitha is in charge, the Krytpis can go back to sustaining themselves on dreams like they had been doing in the past.

The cannibalism only started because of Eparch denying their ability to eat dreams.

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Gazrul.3086 said:

A bit of a side question, but which demons would you say that Kanaxai guy from the Silent Surf fractal belonged to?

He's a Kryptis, albeit from a different house. You can find artifacts related to him in Nayos.

Does raise the question of why we didn't see oni in Nayos, but there is a theory in GW1 that oni come specifically from twisting a human into becoming a demon, so we might not see them in Nayos because the loyalists either didn't have enough humans to make a significant number of them, or didn't see the point.

[Kalavier.1097]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

He's a Kryptis, albeit from a different house. You can find artifacts related to him in Nayos.

Does raise the question of why we didn't see oni in Nayos, but there is a theory in GW1 that oni come specifically from twisting a human into becoming a demon, so we might not see them in Nayos because the loyalists either didn't have enough humans to make a significant number of them, or didn't see the point.

IIRC don't they describe the ONI as wandering demons/kryptis that aren't affiliated with the houses? Like they are explicitly the ones that don't stay on Nayos at all?

[EdwinLi.1284]

13 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

IIRC don't they describe the ONI as wandering demons/kryptis that aren't affiliated with the houses? Like they are explicitly the ones that don't stay on Nayos at all?

Ya they mentioned that in EoD epilogue chapter when we meet the Demons in the jade sea where Kanaxai use to be in the Deep. 

Not loyal to any House but it still brings up a question why they did not appear in Nayos since Nayos should still be their origin place due to being Kryptis. 

Of course the only reason they may have is that majority or all Oni have long left Nayos into other areas in the Mists and some into Tyria since Oni are described to be Wanderers among the Kryptis race.

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

18 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Ya they mentioned that in EoD epilogue chapter when we meet the Demons in the jade sea where Kanaxai use to be in the Deep. 

Not loyal to any House but it still brings up a question why they did not appear in Nayos since Nayos should still be their origin place due to being Kryptis. 

Of course the only reason they may have is that majority or all Oni have long left Nayos into other areas in the Mists and some into Tyria since Oni are described to be Wanderers among the Kryptis race.

 

it seems like we only saw a small part of nayos, particularly the front lines, since our only purpose there was the war effort. this is also likely why we didn't see many civilian homes and establishments, only those that were left standing from the conflict.

 

i think peitha even mentions at one point that nayos is much bigger than just the inner realm? i mean, presumably there is an outer realm, too, since we know that the mursaat originate from nayos and yet we saw nothing of their signature construction or technology there.

 

its also possible than nayos extends into other realms, possibly even into tyria via janthir or bastion of the penitent.

Edited July 22 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 7/20/2024 at 11:22 AM, Gazrul.3086 said:

A bit of a side question, but which demons would you say that Kanaxai guy from the Silent Surf fractal belonged to?

Kanaxai is a kryptis, it's confirmed solidly in Nayos.

On 7/21/2024 at 1:36 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

He's a Kryptis, albeit from a different house. You can find artifacts related to him in Nayos.

Does raise the question of why we didn't see oni in Nayos, but there is a theory in GW1 that oni come specifically from twisting a human into becoming a demon, so we might not see them in Nayos because the loyalists either didn't have enough humans to make a significant number of them, or didn't see the point.

On 7/21/2024 at 9:21 PM, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Ya they mentioned that in EoD epilogue chapter when we meet the Demons in the jade sea where Kanaxai use to be in the Deep. 

Not loyal to any House but it still brings up a question why they did not appear in Nayos since Nayos should still be their origin place due to being Kryptis. 

Of course the only reason they may have is that majority or all Oni have long left Nayos into other areas in the Mists and some into Tyria since Oni are described to be Wanderers among the Kryptis race.

I mean, the Ravenous Wanderer is a human turned into a demon - we see this transformation in Captain Thess's resurrection and the fractal. The Ravenous Wanderer's first "human" form is the same appearance (minus weird green glow) in the fractal.

Which would be why we don't see Oni in Nayos - they're not from Nayos, they're possessed humans turned into Kryptis-like beings by Kanaxai.

On 7/21/2024 at 7:52 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

IIRC don't they describe the ONI as wandering demons/kryptis that aren't affiliated with the houses? Like they are explicitly the ones that don't stay on Nayos at all?

Yes, Mabon mentions this at, iirc, the end of Hell Breaks Loose instance if you talk to him.

[EdwinLi.1284]

13 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Kanaxai is a kryptis, it's confirmed solidly in Nayos.

 

I still wonder where are the members of House Aurkus. We know they still exists since a member was one of Eparch's generals in Convergences.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

4 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I still wonder where are the members of House Aurkus. We know they still exists since a member was one of Eparch's generals in Convergences.

Most houses that we are told about only have 1-2 named members in them. Any number of the generic Kryptis we see/fight could also be in them.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 7/23/2024 at 5:44 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

its also possible than nayos extends into other realms, possibly even into tyria via janthir or bastion of the penitent.

In the case of Deimos, I think it's explicitly mentioned somewhere that Deimos successfully escaped Nayos into Tyria, only to get caught in another trap.