The Return of Raiding and Convergences in Janthir Wilds

[Randulf.7614]

51 minutes ago, Nash.2681 said:

While I appreciate the release of a new raid and hope the best for it (also since it would be the only reason for me to buy JW). But when I read this from the blog post:

"With the introduction of our new raid encounter, some of you might be wondering if we will continue to create raids in the future. The short answer is “maybe.” Raids require a significant amount of development resources, but only a small subset of players engage with the 10-player group instanced content, which is part of the reason it has been five years since our last one. This new raid serves as a test to see how we can support raids moving forward."

This makes me worry that this won't be the revitalization of raids, but just a quick spark in the dark. I don't doubt that players engaging with 10-player grouped instanced content are a small subset, they have the numbers, I don't. What baffles me is, that they keep throwing new10-player content (be it strikes in the past or now the new raid) at the players and apparently expect something to magically change. Raids (or strikes), especially on normal mode, are not hard. The problem imo is twofold. One the one hand side, the game itself does little to prepare players for this kind of content. Players that are willing to use external sources usually have little to no problems to get into this kind of content and find likeminded people on their level. But those that don't (want to) look outside the game itself, are immediatly left behind. One the other hand side it's the stigma this kind of content got put on over the years. The sheer amount of people parroting how "hard" raids are, how toxi "the raiders" are has run its course for years now and most likely did some serious damage.

So to me, the solution would be to change the fundamental problems. Teach players ingame how to play better, how to improve their builds, what geaar combinations make sense for what purpose, implement tools like (at least personal) dps meters, etc.  I'm pretty certain, the more people see how easy it would be to perform on a level that is more than enough to succeed at 10-player group instances, the more players would engage in this kind of content. And if this would raise the subset of players engaging in this kind of content, developing more of it would be more justified from an economic point ov view.

But just adding a new raid, no matter how good it may be (still having hopes , won't change anything in the long run. I don't know if they don't even have the ressources to think about the underlying problems for a moment, simply neglect them or just don't care. But right now, it seems like trying the same stuff over and over again while expecting a different outcome...

 

The problem is Anet have tried teaching people. But when even breakbars have been a struggle for players to understand and so many wanting to skip the learning processes by boosting to 80 or by many other countless ways we all see, then there's only so much they can do. ANd to be honest, that's just fine. It's a game and people shouldn't necs have to feel they are studying an exam to play the game. But lets not ignore the attempts - subtle and overt - that Anet have made to teach that go unheeded.

Until communities grow up and mature and stop bickering about elitists or leeching noobs on a wider scale, then perceived gatekeeping will occur and training guilds - as great as they are - can only be so effective. But in faceless online gaming, that's a pipedream.  It also requires Anet to sort their balancing out. The game's is in a mess in terms of power creep and scale. There should not be a situation where the difference in dps is so wide, even taking into account player skill levels. I'm not even sure it is fixable at this point it's been let go so badly.

There also has to be a realisation that not every content is for every player and that's fine too.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Nash.2681 said:

So to me, the solution would be to change the fundamental problems. Teach players ingame how to play better, how to improve their builds, what geaar combinations make sense for what purpose, implement tools like (at least personal) dps meters, etc.  I'm pretty certain, the more people see how easy it would be to perform on a level that is more than enough to succeed at 10-player group instances, the more players would engage in this kind of content. And if this would raise the subset of players engaging in this kind of content, developing more of it would be more justified from an economic point ov view.

Unfortunately, the game systems that lie at the core of the issue were designed in such a way that teaching players how to utilize them better is practically impossible. A pipe dream. the systems are just way too complex. Even most hardcore players are unable to cope with them, and only get by via copying what the relatively small group of "buildcrafters" keep releasing. As such, expecting more casual players to do any better is not realistic.

The second-best option - helping in-game spread of knowledge about mta builds, and easing the way towards obtaining them, is also unlikely to happen. For this to work, Anet would need to put the info about the most current builds in the game. Unfortunately, again, the meta is completely player-crafted. Anet does not design it at all. They may be doing some balance works, but it's clear that the meta emerging from balance changes often catches even them by complete surprise. If we add to this the overall lack of resources they have, any "build info" they might be offering within the game would likely be always heavily outdated and inaccurate.

Basically, the systems were designed to be players' sandbox playing field, and they are - with all the consequences coming from it. And by now it's impossible to change without a heavy overhaul (and simplification) of several interlinked systems that form the core of the buildcraft design.

1 hour ago, Nash.2681 said:

But just adding a new raid, no matter how good it may be (still having hopes , won't change anything in the long run. I don't know if they don't even have the ressources to think about the underlying problems for a moment, simply neglect them or just don't care. But right now, it seems like trying the same stuff over and over again while expecting a different outcome...

Which brings us to above. yes, this is another attempt to do something that has, for years shown itself to just not work. Expecting a different outcome this time around is misguided. By know, they should already know better.

[Nash.2681]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

1 hour ago, Randulf.7614 said:

The problem is Anet have tried teaching people. But when even breakbars have been a struggle for players to understand and so many wanting to skip the learning processes by boosting to 80 or by many other countless ways we all see, then there's only so much they can do. ANd to be honest, that's just fine. It's a game and people shouldn't necs have to feel they are studying an exam to play the game. But lets not ignore the attempts - subtle and overt - that Anet have made to teach that go unheeded.

Until communities grow up and mature and stop bickering about elitists or leeching noobs on a wider scale, then perceived gatekeeping will occur and training guilds - as great as they are - can only be so effective. But in faceless online gaming, that's a pipedream.  It also requires Anet to sort their balancing out. The game's is in a mess in terms of power creep and scale. There should not be a situation where the difference in dps is so wide, even taking into account player skill levels. I'm not even sure it is fixable at this point it's been let go so badly.

There also has to be a realisation that not every content is for every player and that's fine too.

I see where you come from, but imo their attempts at teaching people how the game works weren't sufficient by far and not implemented well. Granted, doing so years after release certainly wasn't an easy task, yet could have been done way better. Let's take your breakbar example. Iirc a certain heart at Seitung was the first real implementation of a breakbar training and that's the most overt example I can think of. And while I agree one should not need to study and do an examn to play a game, I don't think the amount of teaching that would lead to a higher average player base level would even come close to that. 

For your second paragraph, I agree with your analysis of the situation. Yet I think that IF they'd took the effort to improve the average player skill floor, more players would be embolded to start their own groups and find likeminded people which on the long run would sooth the situation and balance the community. And as much as I wish that the absurd powercreep and the balance mess would be tackled, I'd be ok with delaying that IF they'd took some serious and well thought efforts in boosting the average Joes.

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Unfortunately, the game systems that lie at the core of the issue were designed in such a way that teaching players how to utilize them better is practically impossible. A pipe dream. the systems are just way too complex. Even most hardcore players are unable to cope with them, and only get by via copying what the relatively small group of "buildcrafters" keep releasing. As such, expecting more casual players to do any better is not realistic.

The second-best option - helping in-game spread of knowledge about mta builds, and easing the way towards obtaining them, is also unlikely to happen. For this to work, Anet would need to put the info about the most current builds in the game. Unfortunately, again, the meta is completely player-crafted. Anet does not design it at all. They may be doing some balance works, but it's clear that the meta emerging from balance changes often catches even them by complete surprise. If we add to this the overall lack of resources they have, any "build info" they might be offering within the game would likely be always heavily outdated and inaccurate.

Basically, the systems were designed to be players' sandbox playing field, and they are - with all the consequences coming from it. And by now it's impossible to change without a heavy overhaul (and simplification) of several interlinked systems that form the core of the buildcraft design.

Which brings us to above. yes, this is another attempt to do something that has, for years shown itself to just not work. Expecting a different outcome this time around is misguided. By know, they should already know better.

You're right with your first paragraph when it comes to top level of play / benchmark niveau. Luckily you need far less for most -if not all- normal mode 10-player group content. Teaching what's important to do solid dps on a LI basis, what's a good way to build a squad- this things would be quite doable imo, if embeded in the right setting (probably story) and thought through properly.

I agree that advertising meta builds in game would be pretty much impossible. But what could work, would to offer some basic builds for each class with short explainations and gear suggestions, similar to what Snowcrows tries with their AccesiBuilds. Easy to play builds that get the job done, with short explainations (works best with gear offering this stats, try to use skills A,B,C in that order for more damage, to avoid damage to this; as an alternative you can use weapon X and skill Y). Those builds usually have a tendency to work for a long time and be quite resistant against balance patches (note: work in the sense of "getting the job done", not in the sense of "BiS, current meta"). 

Also I wouldn't want them to limit options, the sandbox design should remain for those who love buildcrafting. Heck, even those that start new should get their time to just try stuff out, go try and error, tinker around. And as long as they get along, there's nothing wrong with it. But the moment they feel like "hmmm, why is everyone around me killing stuff faster?", it would be great if the game offers support itself and external sources wouldn't be mandatory.

[Krzysztof.5973]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

This. FF XIV can easily push the instanced content and integrate it with the storyline only because it's so easy to just queue for it, without having to go out of your way to make a group. And even then, it was apparently so problematic SqEnix was eventually forced to create the duty support/trust system to allow players to bypass the grouping part for huge majority of required, story-integrated instanced content.

Besides, honestly, whenever Anet tried to push more difficult instanced group content on players, most of the player community just plain did not engage with it. If they were to try doing that as requirement to progress story, it would most likely end up with large number of players just dropping the story altogether. Instead of making the players more engaged with the game, it would most likely end up causing the exact opposite results. And i doubt this is what Anet would want to achieve.

GW2 players cannot be easily integrated into forced instanced story because of their irrational fear of playing with other players. ANet has fostered the "playing together alone" and "being good at the game is toxic" mentality for years. 

With raids being copy pasted 50man convergences (and probably having 50man scaling in typical ANet fashion) all we get are new bosses. Now judging by the effort the put into last 2 strikes and 100cm we can only assume how wonderful raids will turn out to be. 😅