Stat Optimizer : Healing Equation

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Stat Optimizer : Healing Equation

https://www.geogebra.org/graphing/knvageux

 

Name and Description

This tool is a stat optimizer for the Healing Equation, to help players identify whether one's investment into their stats are suffering either a diminishing returns, or being rewarded a compounding return. 

Healing Equation

The Healing Equation, is the games internal equation for the output of a healing skill. The equation consists of 5 variables :

Spoiler

1. A = Outgoing Heal Modifiers

2. C = Healing Power Stat

3. D = Skill Coefficient 

4. B = Base Heal

5. E = Total Healing Done

The equation takes the form:

Spoiler

E = ACD + CD + AB + B

which can also be expressed as

Spoiler

(1+A)(B+CD) = E

Total Healing (E) is shown on the Y axis, the green Vertical line on this graph.

The Returns Function

The Returns Function is the equation that shows the relationship between the total healing done from base healing and healing stats, against the total modifiers; the skill coefficient and the outgoing heal modifier, which takes the form:

Spoiler

B + C / AD + 1 = I

Where I is the function i(x), the horizontal blue line on the graph expressed as a ratio E : I

Value Line

The Value line colored in pink, is a constant value, where the ratio of E : I is always 1 : 1. Therefor, when the intersection of E : I is above 1:1, (above the value line) you have a diminishing return. When the intersection is below 1:1 (below the value line) you have a compounding return. This color coded example, shows the region of values where you are experiencing a diminishing return (red) or a compounding return (green). The redder the region (the higher the first term is in the ratio) the more diminishing the return. the greener the region (the lower the first term is in the ratio) the more the compounding return.

How to Use and interpret information

There's a number of different ways to use this tool, depending on your goals.

1. The first way is to just play around with the value sliders, to visually see how the different variables behave across the entire range of possible values. This can more easily give you a feel for how the variables in the healing equation are related to each other.

2. A second way to use this tool, is to input variables according to skills that you use in your build, to determine whether that skill is under-utilizing your stats, or gaining compounding value from your stats. Say for instance, you have a skill like Wings of Resolve. You can input into this optimizer, it's Base Heal value (3,890) and it's Skill Coefficient (1.2) then play around with the remaining sliders (Healing Power Stat, and Outgoing Heal Modifiers) to see what proportion of each you might want to have, to take advantage of the most healing you can get. The name of the game for the optimizer would be, to get to values the farthest below, and farthest to the right of the value line as you can (the greenest area on that gradient...the tool unfortunately doesn't have color coding though so sorry!)

Conversely, you can take a set Healing Power Stat, and a set Outgoing Heal Modifier, and then just insert different skills, to tell you how much of your build stats, are actually utilizing different skills.

3. A third way to use this tool, is to derive theorems for the games mechanics. What it means to make a theorem, is to describe the relationship of one aspect of the games rules, to another, one way to accomplish this is by analyzing the extremes of the values, to derive statements about the aggregate behavior across of all the values.

For instance, one theorem is : "for a skill with 0.00 Healing Coefficient, has an infinite amount of diminishing returns, and therefor, requires an infinite amount of Healing Power" and will therefor never reach the value line. Another theorem is : "Skills with greater than 1.00 Skill coefficients, will always have compounding returns on Healing Power." 

These two theorems are rather obvious, but you can extrapolate further and further... more complex and not so obvious theorems with deep analysis. One example of a not so obvious thereom is that : "Outgoing Healing Modifiers are equivalent to adding a Skill Coefficients to any healing skill." Which means that high Base Healing and high Outgoing Heal Modifiers, with little to no healing power and low heal coefficients, can actually be an effective stat choice for a build!

Purpose

The reason I made this tool was mostly because I was bored...but also because I think a lot of misinformation gets thrown around about this game and its mechanics. There is a different between a theorycrafting and a buildcrafting : Theorycrafters make theories about the games mechanics...build crafters make builds based on those theories. Most people forget to do the former, and make builds based off of "This do the thingy with the other thingy and the big numbers go brrr" which is a fine way to play the game for yourself, but when folks impose onto others how to play the game, say through meta-battle, then asking what theory that build was based on should be supported by you know... an actual derivable theory of the games mechanics. A big part of why i do theory-craft is to give freedom (in the form of information) to players who want to create their own builds.

The game is non-trivial enough, to guarantee that there is no single optimal way to play this game. Playing with this tool, should eventually reveal to you, that in principle you can never fully optimize a build, and that the question of optimization to begin with, is a relative construct...that depends on the players goals in the first place! Does playing optimally mean making the most use of your stats? Or is it to play the most fluid rotation in combat? Is playing optimally a question about how fast you can kill someone? Or is playing optimally a question of not being able to be killed by anyone? The answer is that it's all, and none of the above. Information is relative and all in all it should give you more power and perspective as a build crafter to make builds you want to play, and to disarm those who want to force you to play something based off what could be a nothing burger reason.

I was motivated to do this, primarily to disarm and softly debunk misinformation surrounding stats (like the celestial gear discussion in WvW) to show that what skills you press are a non-trivial and important component to how stats operate and that makes celestials not always the best choice to use in a build because of sheer stats alone.  I plan to make Optomizers for the other magic domains at some point (Damage and Condition Damage) but this may take some time because the Damage Equation is a bit more complicated.

Anyway, enjoy the tool, i hope yall find it useful, and i hope it can provide more insight and perspective to the conversation around WvW and obviously to the game, and your gameplay as a whole. 

 

Edited July 28 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Dawdler.8521]

I mean... tweaking your healing power may have been useful if the only gear options wasn't minstrel (zergling support), celestial (free healing) or power/condi meta (no healing).

But it isn't. Healing power does literally nothing in moderation. Your heal skill will increase from like 5000 to 5500 with heavy investment on a gear combo that will utterly kitten you. You either go full blast or celestial. 

At best the only "focused" gear sets with healing would be apothecary/plaguedoctors (due to condi being able to stand on its own) but it's not worth it at all over the massive, overpowering beast that is celestial.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

34 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Healing power does literally nothing in moderation. Your heal skill will increase from like 5000 to 5500 with heavy investment on a gear combo that will utterly kitten you. You either go full blast or celestial. 

Hey Dawdler.

I would just advise playing around with and using the tool. Because the tool basically shows, that this is false : The the answer depends a lot on the skills you are using, and the modifiers that you have. For instance, there's some threshold where healing power no longer gets diminishing returns with enough outgoing heal modifiers like in this example... and the more you invest in healing power and healing modifiers, the more your returns compound on healing, therefor making specialized builds stronger as they get more specialized...and that's somewhat obvious because that's what a compounding effect does.

If you invest in just healing power, and your skills are low coefficients, your making a non-optimal, diminishing decisions, which is kind of what celestial is (it only offers healing power).

Whether the other domains of magic have similiar relationships, is yet to be seen, but we know that toughness has a diminishing return on higher power...and damage coefficients are typically higher than healing coefficients so I actually wager that the above stat optimality argument is only exacerbated.

Anyway, this is a tool that you use to display information. You can form theories based on its information....but for me, this is as far as I really want to contribute to the conversation...i think its best for me not say much more else than i've already said...and to let people come to their own conclusions when using the tool.

Cheers,

Edited July 28 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Dawdler.8521]

4 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Hey Dawdler.

I would just advise playing around with and using the tool. Because the tool basically shows, that this is false : The the answer depends a lot on the skills you are using, and the modifiers that you have. For instance, there's some threshold where healing power no longer gets diminishing returns with enough outgoing heal modifiers like in this example... and the more you invest in healing power and healing modifiers, the more your returns compound on healing, therefor making specialized builds stronger as they get more specialized...and that's somewhat obvious because that's what a compounding effect does.

At 1880 healing power, lol! Got to boonball hard for that. If the argument here is that you got to go full maximized healer to optimize your healing, I agree!

Look it's real simple for gear. Lets make a base setup - weapon, armor and trinkets - no runes, relic or traits. Apothecary (which has higher healing power than minstrels) vs celestial and look at... say an engineer with it's pistol autoattack for the damage and elixir for the heal (which has both base heal and regen).

Apothecary:
99 damage + 478 bleed damage over 6s (79/s)
6941 healing + 1211 regen over 4s (302/s)

Celestial:
163 damage + 516 damage over 8.5s (60/s)
6199 healing + 1197 regen over 5.75s (209/s)

Which on it's own look like well the stats per second is much better on apothecary!  

But no, celestial wins overall on this: +43% condi duration and +43% boon duration. As can be seen, the boon duration balance out the advantage of raw healing power for regen and the condi duration balance out the advantage of raw condi damage. The condi damage is the most hurtful here since you want burst and not duration (less duration skills more important to boost duration for since it's higher damage condi, bleeding over long duration will be the least of your damage), while healing over another 1.75 second will barely matter unless you are insta-spiked... in which case you want base healing instead. And tbh it's not that far off.  So the healing aspect is marginal.

Then add on top of that the OTHER advantages of celestial - much more power damage (due to scaling), 35% crit chance instead of 5%, 43% boon duration instead of 0% (good for other boons not just regen, obviously). And in particular the real kicker - 6390 more HP. That's literally another base heal worth of HP, just sitting there. Those hitpoints vastly outweigh the extra couple of percent of damage reduction that toughness on apothecary will offer.  

Sure you can pick a build/class good for healing if you want but no one in their right mind would choose to "optimize" any build for healing other than actual maximized healers when celestial exist.

And if I am wrong and there is another gearset than celestial in combination with a build that has all the advantages of celestial but also so much healing power it's optimized, I'd like to know.

Edited July 28 by Dawdler.8521

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

And if I am wrong and there is another gearset than celestial in combination with a build that has all the advantages of celestial but also so much healing power it's optimized, I'd like to know.

Like i said just use the tool. its very easy to see for things like the healing equation, that...ya you're pretty much wrong. In the example I showed earlier, it had a low skill coefficient (of .5) a zero base healing, and a low outgoing healing modifier, to show off the example of how at some threshold of combination between outgoing healing modifiers, skill coefficient and healing power it no longer suffers diminishing returns. Here is another example, which has a more moderate skill coefficient, a moderate base heal, and close to max outgoing heal modifier (92%) with only 520 healing power.

In this example, this means being more selective with the skill you press (has higher coefficient and higher base healing) and specing into outgoing heal modifiers, allows you to "loosen up" on the healing power. There's a large space of possible values between these 4 variables, so just using the tool will give you an easier time in understanding the relationship between them. But just a theorem that can be expressed in words about what that threshold is :

When your outgoing healing modifiers + skill coefficient become greater than 1, All values for Base Healing and Heal Power have compounding returns. IE: x >0.4 + 0.6, or x >0.8 + 0.2 etc... You can just go and see that for yourself by setting the base value and heal power to any values you want, and choosing any combination of heal coefficient and outgoing heal modifiers that sum greater to 1, will always be on the green side of the graph (below the value line).

If you were to express this more colloquially, it means that outgoing heal modifiers and the skill you are using, are very important factors in figuring out whether you are wasting the healing power stat. At more extreme values, the relationship becomes more obvious... Ex: If you have an outgoing heal modifier of 4 (400%) and a skill coefficient of 1 on a skill, then every point of healing power (or base healing), is worth 4 times more than it is normally worth, when using that skill. Imagine now if you had an infinite amount of outgoing heal modifiers... Then even a single point of healing power or base heal would be worth infinitely more than it is normally worth.

I can't talk about the other properties of the other stats, since I haven't made optimizers for those other domains of magic (Damage and Condition). But like i said earlier just use the tool and get a feel for relationships those variables have.

 

 

Edited July 28 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Aeolus.3615]

this reminds me on my www heal herald  that the weapon sigil modifier that increase outgoing heal makes me heal less than stacking values sigil.

[Kirevey.5079]

For me here is what I usually consider for WvW:

* Does the class have high base hp?

* Does the spec I'm playing just heals or is a heal / boon support ?

* Does the spec have enough survival traits or base armor ?

* Does the spec benefits from stacking other stat to stack more healing power ? 

* Does the spec benefit from having a particular boon uptime ?

For example, I take Tempest: low base hp, heal / boon support, low base armor, some defensive traits depending on choice, no benefit from other stats or boon uptime.

Then I take Elemental Bastion: 

* On full clerics with monk runes base heal is 2503

* On full minstrels with monk runes base heal is 2303

From a healing perspective full clerics looks way better, but then we look at the other parts that affect the build:

* Clerics gives no hp and concentration. It gives base power, but since we have no prec or ferocity, we will hit like a wet noddle.

* Minstrel on the other hand gives around 6k more hp, 200 more toughness, and almost 70% boon duration.

Which one would you pick in WvW ?

 

[A Hamster.2580]

Where are you getting CD and B from E = ACD + CD + AB + B?

I looked at the wiki and got E=ACD+AB

Edited July 28 by A Hamster.2580

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

6 minutes ago, Kirevey.5079 said:

For me here is what I usually consider for WvW:

* Does the class have high base hp?

* Does the spec I'm playing just heals or is a heal / boon support ?

* Does the spec have enough survival traits or base armor ?

* Does the spec benefits from stacking other stat to stack more healing power ? 

* Does the spec benefit from having a particular boon uptime ?

Yep these are great questions, and I precisely agree with this mindset : these are some of the same questions i ask when asking between the optimality of say ministrels and clerics. This is why on Elementalist i often go Ministrels, but on something like a druid, which is highly mobile, has medium armor, and medium health i run clerics. Similiar story when asking about boon time.

The tool was made with this exact purpose in mind. Elemental Bastion is a great example because it happens to be one of the few skills on elementalist currently, that has a healing coefficient of 1 (where many other skills on elementalist, have higher bases, less healing coefficient) which means outgoing heal modifiers are typically more important on a healing elementalist build. But for Elemental Bastion in particular, it gets a high contribution from healing power (At 100% outgoing heal modifiers, and with its 1.0 coefficient, each healing power stat is worth 2 points of healing). Shown here Fig 1 - Fig 2. Means that builds that use this trait greatly benefits from higher healing power + healing modifiers. So if you have a healing aura spam based build, it is worth considering, maxing these two things out, and finding sources of survivability elsewhere.

[Riba.3271]

Minstrel is best healing gear for WvW. Yes, you can hit slightly higher numbers with something like cleric, but you're not as tanky and you will lack boon duration.

They really need to fix minstrel (and cele) to not providing the best stats. Or maybe they can buff other gear sets.

Edited July 28 by Riba.3271

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, A Hamster.2580 said:

Where are you getting CD from E = ACD + CD + AB + B?

I looked at the wiki and got E=ACD+AB

Great question.

From the Wikipedia:

Total healing done = [(mechanic-specific base healing) + (Healing Power) * (mechanic-specific coefficient)] * (sum of healing multipliers)

Directly translated is E =(B + CD)A, and in distributed form is E=ACD + AB

Let's take an example where we just actually solve it and see what happens.

A (Outgoing Heal Modifier) = .5

B (Base Healing) = 1500

C (Healing Power Stat) = 1000

D (Healing Coefficient) = 1.2

The equation E = (ACD) + (AB) gives you

(.5 x 1000 x 1.2) + (.5 x 1500)

600 + 750

E = 1350

Which is actually wrong. We know this is wrong, because a skill with a base healing (B) of 1500 doing a total healing (E) of 1350 total healing is well...false...1500 is the absolute minimum that skill should be healing for at least...since that is what base healing is. The reason you would get a wrong answer like that is likely because the healing equation on the wiki is poorly written and in a form that doesn't account for additional terms that need to be present (like the original base healing, as a constant in the equation).  

If you sit back and look into the form ACD + CD + AB + B, what you are doing is adding the Base Healing (B) which is a constant,  then adding to that, the Base Healing times the Outgoing Heal Modifier that would effect it, which is going to give you some scaled value of B (say 0.5 healing modifier x 1500 base healing = 750...soo the operation for AB + B is 750 + 1500 = 2250). Then the term CD is doing the same thing, but for Healing Power Stat which is determined as a combination of the skill coefficient and the healing power...and again adding a scaled term to CD determined by the outgoing healing modifier A, (say .5 healing modifier x 1000 healing power x 1.2 skill coefficient) + (1000 healing power x 1.2 skill coefficient) which is (600) + (1200) = 1800. 1800 + 2250 = 4050 total healing.

You can see where the terms 750, and 600 enter into this equation (they are the contributions of outgoing heal modifiers, which is multiplicative). So likely if I were to reword the Wikipedia, it would either be to use a more proper form (1 + A)(B + CD) where the value of 1+ accounts for those missing terms when it gets distributed or to just change the output they have named there from "Total Healing Done" to "Healing Modifier Contribution" or something since that is what it is counting rather than actual total healing on the Wikipedia... brah moment 🙃

Hope this answers your question...ya man sometimes information in places is just bad and it causes problems. That page was probably written 14 years ago, and a lot of it is sometimes guess work from people. 

Anyway, you can insert skills into this optimizer and it will output a proper total healing answer, rather than having you add those hidden terms yourself, and you can fact check them in game to confirm that it is true. Cheers.

 

Edited July 28 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Dawdler.8521]

5 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

From the Wikipedia:

Total healing done = [(mechanic-specific base healing) + (Healing Power) * (mechanic-specific coefficient)] * (sum of healing multipliers)

Directly translated is E =(B + CD)A, and in distributed form is E=ACD + AB

Let's take an example where we just actually solve it and see what happens.

A (Outgoing Heal Modifier) = .5

B (Base Healing) = 1500

C (Healing Power Stat) = 1000

D (Healing Coefficient) = 1.2

The equation E = (ACD) + (AB) gives you

(.5 x 1000 x 1.2) + (.5 x 1500)

600 + 750

E = 1350

Which is actually wrong. We know this is wrong, because a skill with a base healing (B) of 1500 doing a total healing (E) of 1350 total healing is well...false...1500 is the absolute minimum that skill should be healing for...since that is what base healing is. The reason you would get a wrong answer like that is likely because the healing equation on the wiki is poorly written and in a form that doesn't account for additional terms that need to be present (like the original base healing, as a constant in the equation).  

If you sit back and look into the form ACD + CD + AB + B, what you are doing is adding the Base Healing (B) which is a constant,  then adding to that, the Base Healing times the Outgoing Heal Modifier that would effect it, which is going to give you some scaled value of B (say 0.5 healing modifier x 1500 base healing = 750...soo the operation for AB + B is 750 + 1500 = 2250). Then the term CD is doing the same thing, but for Healing Power Stat which is determined as a combination of the skill coefficient and the healing power...and again adding a scaled term to CD determined by the outgoing healing modifier A, (say .5 healing modifier x 1000 healing power x 1.2 skill coefficient) + (1000 healing power x 1.2 skill coefficient) which is (600) + (1200) = 1800. 1800 + 2250 = 4050 total healing.

You can see where the terms 750, and 600 enter into this equation (they are the contributions of outgoing heal modifiers, which is multiplicative). So likely if I were to reword the Wikipedia, it would either be to use a more proper form (1 + A)(BC +D) where the value of 1+ accounts for those missing terms when it gets distributed or to just change the output they have named there from "Total Healing Done" to "Healing Modifier Contribution" or something since that is what it is counting rather than actual total healing on the Wikipedia, which is a brah moment 🙃

Hope this answers your question...ya man sometimes information in places is just bad and it causes problems. That page was probably written 14 years ago, and a lot of it is sometimes guess work from people. 

Anyway, you can insert skills into this optimizer and it will output a proper total healing answer, rather than having you add those hidden terms yourself, and you can fact check them in game to confirm that it is true. Cheers.

 

TL;DR

Healing = base + (power*modifier)

Then it's multiplied 1.x whatever your outgoing heal percentage is. This format is much simpler if one want to explain how healing is calculated rather than clumping it all together.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

28 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

TL;DR

Healing = base + (power*modifier)

no, because base healing is also effected by the modifier (outgoing healing modifier). so its not just "base + ..." you need a term like "base + base*modifier," to describe the total healing of the base heal. Likewise is the case for the other side of the healing equation for stats.

"power*modifier" does not take into consideration stats, which is exactly what "(skill coefficient * modifier * stats) + (skill coefficient*stats)" takes into account

So obviously the form of the equation above ---ACD + CD + AB + B or (1 + A)(B + CD)--- is the correct version of this wrong TLDR version, which was the point being made in the post.

Edited July 28 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Hesione.9412]

2 hours ago, Kirevey.5079 said:

For me here is what I usually consider for WvW:

* Does the class have high base hp?

* Does the spec I'm playing just heals or is a heal / boon support ?

* Does the spec have enough survival traits or base armor ?

* Does the spec benefits from stacking other stat to stack more healing power ? 

* Does the spec benefit from having a particular boon uptime ?

For example, I take Tempest: low base hp, heal / boon support, low base armor, some defensive traits depending on choice, no benefit from other stats or boon uptime.

Then I take Elemental Bastion: 

* On full clerics with monk runes base heal is 2503

* On full minstrels with monk runes base heal is 2303

From a healing perspective full clerics looks way better, but then we look at the other parts that affect the build:

* Clerics gives no hp and concentration. It gives base power, but since we have no prec or ferocity, we will hit like a wet noddle.

* Minstrel on the other hand gives around 6k more hp, 200 more toughness, and almost 70% boon duration.

Which one would you pick in WvW ?

 

But, but, but celestial 🤪

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

TL;DR

Healing = base + (power*modifier)

Then it's multiplied 1.x whatever your outgoing heal percentage is. This format is much simpler if one want to explain how healing is calculated rather than clumping it all together.

To be clear cause maybe I was being a bit too harsh with my response, that method you’re referring to requires three equations. The thing you mentioned (b + cd) = g where g is an unmodified healing skill term

then g * a = f where f is the outgoing heal modifiers contribution

then finally f + g = e which gives you the outgoing heal modifiers contribution + the unmodified heal to give you total healing.

That’s fine btw if you want to split the healing equation into 3 equations. The problem with that is that it’s not a single equation, which is what (1+ A)(b + cd) is, just a single equation hence the “healing equation” and not “the healing equations”

[Dawdler.8521]

54 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

no, because base healing is also effected by the modifier (outgoing healing modifier). so its not just "base + ..." you need a term like "base + base*modifier," to describe the total healing of the base heal. Likewise is the case for the other side of the healing equation for stats.

"power*modifier" does not take into consideration stats, which is exactly what "(skill coefficient * modifier * stats) + (skill coefficient*stats)" takes into account

So obviously the form of the equation above ---ACD + CD + AB + B or (1 + A)(B + CD)--- is the correct version of this wrong TLDR version, which was the point being made in the post.

Pretty certain base healing isnt double modified by outgoing heal. That's not how I understand the wiki:

Total healing done = [(mechanic-specific base healing) + (Healing Power) * (mechanic-specific coefficient)] * (sum of healing multipliers)

Or as in the case of the regeneration + elixir in my cele example above:

130 + (0.125*639)  = 209.875 hp/s
5560 + (1.0*639) = 6199 hp

I have no healing multiplier but any such thing would be multiplier on the heal (ie 6199 * 1.1 for 10% etc)

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 minute ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Pretty certain base healing isnt double modified by outgoing heal. 

It’s like this:

if you have a base heal of 2000 (b), and an outgoing heal modifier of .5 (a) you are doing 2000 healing (b) + 2000*.5 (b*a)

2000+1000 = 3000

thats b + ba

two terms

[Dawdler.8521]

14 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

It’s like this:

if you have a base heal of 2000 (b), and an outgoing heal modifier of .5 (a) you are doing 2000 healing (b) + 2000*.5 (b*a)

2000+1000 = 3000

thats b + ba

two terms

What I'm saying is I am pretty certain that base heal is never modified. Base is always base. That's why the calculation have the first part in brackets. It's only a two part calculation:
base + (power*coef)
and
sum of multipliers

Reading your numbers again in the first post yeah I'm pretty sure you are confusing [] for (). It's not calculated like that. Brackets mean you calculate B + CD first, then multiply with A.

E = [B + C*D] * A

Edited July 28 by Dawdler.8521

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What I'm saying is I am pretty certain that base heal is never modified. Base is always base.

i'm gonna go test that claim right now, but I'm 99.99% certain that is false. Base Healing is effected by outgoing heal modifiers.

I'm going to go in game right now and test that, by equipping gear that has 0 healing power, but with non zero outgoing heal modifiers.

[Dawdler.8521]

5 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

i'm gonna go test that claim right now, but I'm 99.99% certain that is false. Base Healing is effected by outgoing heal modifiers.

I'm going to go in game right now and test that, by equipping gear that has 0 healing power, but with non zero outgoing heal modifiers.

That's not the point, the issue was that your calculation is doing it with healing power AND base. That's was the problem. Neither is individually modified by the outgoing modifier, it's the sum of them that's modified. Which at 0 healing power is... same as base heal. So of course it's affected.

Edited July 28 by Dawdler.8521

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

That's not the point, the issue was that your calculation is doing it with healing power AND base. 

That's how outgoing healing modifiers work. They effect all healing skills, with or without healing power. I just don't think you understand the math bro.

Anyway, i am going to test your claim.

[Arete.7019]

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Great question.

From the Wikipedia:

Total healing done = [(mechanic-specific base healing) + (Healing Power) * (mechanic-specific coefficient)] * (sum of healing multipliers)

Directly translated is E =(B + CD)A, and in distributed form is E=ACD + AB

Let's take an example where we just actually solve it and see what happens.

A (Outgoing Heal Modifier) = .5

B (Base Healing) = 1500

C (Healing Power Stat) = 1000

D (Healing Coefficient) = 1.2

The equation E = (ACD) + (AB) gives you

(.5 x 1000 x 1.2) + (.5 x 1500)

600 + 750

E = 1350

Which is actually wrong. We know this is wrong, because a skill with a base healing (B) of 1500 doing a total healing (E) of 1350 total healing is well...false...1500 is the absolute minimum that skill should be healing for at least...since that is what base healing is. The reason you would get a wrong answer like that is likely because the healing equation on the wiki is poorly written and in a form that doesn't account for additional terms that need to be present (like the original base healing, as a constant in the equation).  

If you sit back and look into the form ACD + CD + AB + B, what you are doing is adding the Base Healing (B) which is a constant,  then adding to that, the Base Healing times the Outgoing Heal Modifier that would effect it, which is going to give you some scaled value of B (say 0.5 healing modifier x 1500 base healing = 750...soo the operation for AB + B is 750 + 1500 = 2250). Then the term CD is doing the same thing, but for Healing Power Stat which is determined as a combination of the skill coefficient and the healing power...and again adding a scaled term to CD determined by the outgoing healing modifier A, (say .5 healing modifier x 1000 healing power x 1.2 skill coefficient) + (1000 healing power x 1.2 skill coefficient) which is (600) + (1200) = 1800. 1800 + 2250 = 4050 total healing.

You can see where the terms 750, and 600 enter into this equation (they are the contributions of outgoing heal modifiers, which is multiplicative). So likely if I were to reword the Wikipedia, it would either be to use a more proper form (1 + A)(B + CD) where the value of 1+ accounts for those missing terms when it gets distributed or to just change the output they have named there from "Total Healing Done" to "Healing Modifier Contribution" or something since that is what it is counting rather than actual total healing on the Wikipedia... brah moment 🙃

Hope this answers your question...ya man sometimes information in places is just bad and it causes problems. That page was probably written 14 years ago, and a lot of it is sometimes guess work from people. 

Anyway, you can insert skills into this optimizer and it will output a proper total healing answer, rather than having you add those hidden terms yourself, and you can fact check them in game to confirm that it is true. Cheers.

 

You're getting the wrong answer because you're applying what is presumably supposed to be an increase  for your outgoing healing modifier as a 50% decrease.

The equation E = (ACD) + (AB) gives you
(.5 x 1000 x 1.2) + (.5 x 1500)

(1.5 x 1000 x 1.2) + (1.5 x 1500)

600 + 750
1800 + 2250

E = 1350
E = 4050

Your calculator gets this right, so I'm really confused how you managed to get it wrong? https://imgur.com/GPPWATQ

[CafPow.1542]

This is quite nerdy for people just not stacking so i can’t heal them cause they outrange me lol.

kidding, keep going. Theorycrafting is always cool.

Edited July 28 by CafPow.1542

[Dawdler.8521]

12 minutes ago, Arete.7019 said:

You're getting the wrong answer because you're applying what is presumably supposed to be an increase  for your outgoing healing modifier as a 50% decrease.

The equation E = (ACD) + (AB) gives you
(.5 x 1000 x 1.2) + (.5 x 1500)

(1.5 x 1000 x 1.2) + (1.5 x 1500)

600 + 750
1800 + 2250

E = 1350
E = 4050

Your calculator gets this right, so I'm really confused how you managed to get it wrong? https://imgur.com/GPPWATQ

Maybe the 0.5 mess up my thinking too?

With 20% modifier, 1000 healing power and 2500 base heal and a random 0.5 coefficent:

E = ACD + CD + AB + B = 1.2*1000*0.5 +1000*0.5 + 1.2*2500 + 2500 = 600 + 500 + 3000 + 2500 = 6600

E = [B + C*D] * A = [2500 + 1000*0.5] * 1.2 = 3600

(adding in an extra base heal multiplied with outgoing mess it up)
 

Edited July 28 by Dawdler.8521

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

32 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

That's not the point, the issue was that your calculation is doing it with healing power AND base. That's was the problem. Neither is individually modified by the outgoing modifier, it's the sum of them that's modified. Which at 0 healing power is... same as base heal. So of course it's affected.

And here is that claim you made, proven false:

https://i.gyazo.com/f239cb5a3fdcb24b8ead422f480eaef3.mp4

Here in this test I'm using no gear (i have 50 heal power from borderlands boost, but its inconsequential for the purpose of the test). I have 3 active outgoing modifiers here : The Traits Lingering Light (20% Outgoing Healing), Natural Mender (15% Outgoing Healing) and Sigil of Transference (10%) on my staff, which also has no stats on it, for a total of 45% Outgoing Heal Modifers.

The Skill i use here is Lunar Impact, which has a Base heal of 1215 in WvW (and a 1.0 coefficient. With 50 healing power thats 50 additional healing) which you see when hovering over the skill in the first few seconds, is 1265 Healing.

The Stat Optomizer predicts, i should do 1834 Healing, as shown here in this image, where i inputted all of these values : Fig 1

And in this test i do exactly 1834 healing as shown in this screenshot from that gyazo gif : Fig 2

If Outgoing Healing didn't effect Base Healing, i would have done 1265 healing.

Edited July 28 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684