Status of Each Race and Future expansion hints [SPOILER Lore]

[anninke.7469]

10 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I won't be surprised if the second Pale tree is male and turns out to actually be Mordremoth but the version of him before the Corruption on the Elder Dragons.

Back in HoT we learned Mordremoth can transfer his mind into a Sylvari or any other minions if he wanted. With him always having this power, he may have done this before in a previous cycle or before the Corruption began.

A moment when he may have suspected something was wrong with himself before the Elder Dragon cycle began so he downloaded all aspect of his non-corrupted mind into this Pale Tree, separated his connection to his original body, and kept it hiding so his now corrupted original self cannot attack it and corrupt it.

 

I really hope that's not the case. Since they killed Trahearne for this, at least they should not make his death meaningless.

[Narcemus.1348]

20 hours ago, anninke.7469 said:

I really hope that's not the case. Since they killed Trahearne for this, at least they should not make his death meaningless.

To be fair, we killed Trahearne to keep the corrupted version of Mordremoth from surviving. This would be a different situation entirely. I don't necessarily feel like it is a story we need, but I don't feel like it makes Trahearne's death meaningless.

[EdwinLi.1284]

On 10/6/2024 at 9:36 AM, anninke.7469 said:

I really hope that's not the case. Since they killed Trahearne for this, at least they should not make his death meaningless.

Trehearne's death is only meaningless if the corrupted Mordremoth we know is the one who survived since our actions was to kill that version of Mordremoth.

 

3 hours ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

To be fair, we killed Trahearne to keep the corrupted version of Mordremoth from surviving. This would be a different situation entirely. I don't necessarily feel like it is a story we need, but I don't feel like it makes Trahearne's death meaningless.

 Just a thought anyways since for a long time, I've been thinking about this aspect of Mordremoth's power and why he never used it often. If he had this from the beginning before he was corrupted, a smart move to preserve himself from the corruption would have been to upload his non-corrupted mind to a body that cannot be corrupted in the long run despite his original body and mind will still become the Mordremoth we know. However, atleast now he has manage to preserve his original self but at the sametime I wonder what kind of thoughts went through his mind if he did this since he would have to watch his original self becoming corrupted and see the horrors he commits each dragon cycle.

I do not expect this to be the case with the second Pale Tree storyline if we are going that route with what they set up for the Sylvari in Prologue but it is on a list of things that is maybe possible direction for that side of New World world storyline arc we are in now. 

They also would not need much details on the second Pale tree side reason why he chosen to remain hidden until now as well since a Non-Corrupt Mordremoth most likely did his best to remain hidden so himself and the Sylvari of the Second Pale tree can avoid being attacked and corrupted. 

 

 

Edited October 7 by EdwinLi.1284

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

To be fair, we killed Trahearne to keep the corrupted version of Mordremoth from surviving. This would be a different situation entirely. I don't necessarily feel like it is a story we need, but I don't feel like it makes Trahearne's death meaningless.

5 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Trehearne's death is only meaningless if the corrupted Mordremoth we know is the one who survived since our actions was to kill that version of Mordremoth.

I would disagree. The entire point of the Dragon Saga storyline was to remove and replace the Elder Dragons due to their connection to the The All, their extreme form of balancing magic, and ultimately their connection to the Void.

A "Good Mordremoth" fragment would still be all of that, still be part of The All and filtering the Void, just as Soo-Won was. It would not only make Trahearne's death meaningless, but Soo-Won's and the half-assed contrived situation that is End of Dragons on a whole. Actually, rather than making it meaningless, it would make it nonsensical, because how could Mordremoth survive but his role in The All and balance/filtration of magic be lost entirely and moved to Aurene, when not even Soo-Won could do such a thing, who was retconned from the original evil deep sea dragon to this benevolent, sad, suicidal mother of dragons under Abernathy's writing?

It'd be along the same lines of Palpatine returning in Episode 9 but oh, he's actually good this time around...

[draxynnic.3719]

I suspect there's also a degree to which Soo-Won's children either didn't realise they were being corrupted or didn't care until it was too late. Sane Kralkatorrik seems to have come closest, but his response was a similar "you have to kill me" to Soo-Won. While Jormag presented themself as having resisted the corruption but it seems that in practice it's just that Jormag's corruption came in the form of "ice fortifies, ice protects" - which, as shown with the Frozen, ultimately results in stasis and is just as destructive to life as the corruption of their siblings.

[EdwinLi.1284]

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I would disagree. The entire point of the Dragon Saga storyline was to remove and replace the Elder Dragons due to their connection to the The All, their extreme form of balancing magic, and ultimately their connection to the Void.

A "Good Mordremoth" fragment would still be all of that, still be part of The All and filtering the Void, just as Soo-Won was. It would not only make Trahearne's death meaningless, but Soo-Won's and the half-assed contrived situation that is End of Dragons on a whole. Actually, rather than making it meaningless, it would make it nonsensical, because how could Mordremoth survive but his role in The All and balance/filtration of magic be lost entirely and moved to Aurene, when not even Soo-Won could do such a thing, who was retconned from the original evil deep sea dragon to this benevolent, sad, suicidal mother of dragons under Abernathy's writing?

It'd be along the same lines of Palpatine returning in Episode 9 but oh, he's actually good this time around...

We still do not even know how will Mordremoth function in a Sylvari body anyways.

His goal was to transfer his mind into Trehearne body as a emergency action if his main body dies but we cut him off during the process to kill his mind.

It remains unknown to this day if Mordremoth functions as a Elder dragon in a new body or ends up limited to what a normal Sylvari or this case a Pale Tree can do. Either way we will never know since he is dead and the commander denied him the chance to act out this plan.
 

3 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I suspect there's also a degree to which Soo-Won's children either didn't realise they were being corrupted or didn't care until it was too late. Sane Kralkatorrik seems to have come closest, but his response was a similar "you have to kill me" to Soo-Won. While Jormag presented themself as having resisted the corruption but it seems that in practice it's just that Jormag's corruption came in the form of "ice fortifies, ice protects" - which, as shown with the Frozen, ultimately results in stasis and is just as destructive to life as the corruption of their siblings.

 

It does always sounds like they remained ignorant in some way until it was too late. Though I think  the ones who started to get corrupted later may have noticed it but were too late to stop its spread into their minds. In Jormag's case, I think the corruption took more on a self preservation form simply because she did not realize her own thoughts were becoming twisted by the corruption in a different way. As a result she started to think she resisted the corruption but did not realize she was corrupted due to how the corruption twisted her views.

 

Edited October 8 by EdwinLi.1284

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

We still do not even know how will Mordremoth function in a Sylvari body anyways.

His goal was to transfer his mind into Trehearne body as a emergency action if his main body dies but we cut him off during the process to kill his mind.

It remains unknown to this day if Mordremoth functions as a Elder dragon in a new body or ends up limited to what a normal Sylvari or this case a Pale Tree can do. Either way we will never know since he is dead and the commander denied him the chance to act out this plan.

I mean, we know for a fact that Mordremoth has body-hopped before, and has essentially become more a being of mind than body by the point of GW2 (and even the previous dragonrise based on Eparch's memories). So if he were to suddenly not be an Elder Dragon because he's in a sylvari body... how is he one during HoT? He's not in his original body, he's barely even in a body in the first place and the same will continue to be true for both cases even if in a sylvari body instead of a tree and oversized Mordrem Spitfire.

So I think it's very safe to say that Mordremoth functions as an Elder Dragon regardless of his body. Otherwise he would have stopped functioning as an Elder Dragon dozens of thousands of years ago.

[EdwinLi.1284]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I mean, we know for a fact that Mordremoth has body-hopped before, and has essentially become more a being of mind than body by the point of GW2 (and even the previous dragonrise based on Eparch's memories). So if he were to suddenly not be an Elder Dragon because he's in a sylvari body... how is he one during HoT? He's not in his original body, he's barely even in a body in the first place and the same will continue to be true for both cases even if in a sylvari body instead of a tree and oversized Mordrem Spitfire.

So I think it's very safe to say that Mordremoth functions as an Elder Dragon regardless of his body. Otherwise he would have stopped functioning as an Elder Dragon dozens of thousands of years ago.

Either way, I assume it can be both cases depending on conditions but we will never know since he is dead.

That topic aside,

I am curious what kind of things may lead Caithe to a cure for the Pale Tree. The astral ward have countless knowledge and relics from the previous Dragon Cycle and depending on how deep they are in things related to ancient knowledge and relics, may have things from Dragon Cycles that are far older stored in places we have not seen yet. 

Ancient knowledge and relics from older Dragon cycles may even reveal things about the Mist that were consider forgotten due to hardly anything beyond the last dragon cycle survived. This opens up opportunity to gain side lore about how older Dragon Cycles handle the Elder Dragon before they failed and maybe more lore about the time when the Elder Dragons began becoming corrupted. 

Edited October 8 by EdwinLi.1284

[GeraldBC.4927]

On 8/23/2024 at 12:26 PM, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

 The Commander feeling like stepping away from all these annoying characters leaving his communicator behind, he goes to a place where no one can find him.

We basically got this with the opening instance for SotO, the one that's in your race's home instance. It's probably the closest thing to it we're going to get. 

On 8/29/2024 at 4:12 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

"there's this other threat out there, and now you've stabilised your own home, we could use your help dealing with this before it reaches you".

I agree that would be a cool storyline to do, but it doesn't lend itself to how GW2 is designed. The areas that any content takes place in for longer than one story instance (I mean long enough to be an overworld zone with events and so on), have to be located in a place that can be placed on the Tyrian world map, the one you see when you press m. What you propose would work for other games where the world map is separated out into separate world maps, but a crucial part of gw2's map feature is that you see the entire game's world with the press of one button. 

On 8/23/2024 at 12:26 PM, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Why are we gathering supplies around Syntri for the expedition if we can just waypoint back to town for dinner and sleep and be back the next morning, no long boat trip required?

Because the Arcane Council likes money and the average bear can't afford to waypoint all over the place...would be my inference if we hadn't seen Stoic Alder casually waypointing over to Lion's Arch. My general headcanon is that in the setting, Waypoints are way more expensive to use than the actual ingame cost implies, and the cost probably scales with weight as well. Otherwise caravans wouldn't be a thing, everyone would just replace all transport of goods with waypoints. All those tree trunks for the sawmill? No need to load it on carts and carry it over, just take it to the waypoint and teleport it straight to the sawmill. 

On 8/29/2024 at 4:12 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Something to note is that the original charr homelands have been implied to be on the other side of the Blazeridge Mountains

I am actually interested in knowing where that implication is, I want to read it myself. 

On 9/26/2024 at 5:00 PM, EdwinLi.1284 said:

that is going to be a issue if this Charr expansion ends up having the Titan involved because that may mean we will face the Fire Titans for this expansion and the Flame Legion may end up splitting between those who worship the Titans and those who want to reform.

I wouldn't want this for two reasons.
A: It means the Commander failed to dismantle the titan threat in JW, as they weren't supposed to exist anymore since post-Nightfall.
B: The titans already revealed that they never gave a kitten about the Charr, the Flame aka the Flame Legion have been made aware of that as well. 

 

On 10/6/2024 at 7:44 AM, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I won't be surprised if the second Pale tree is male and turns out to actually be Mordremoth but the version of him before the Corruption on the Elder Dragons.

Before? Nah. If the tree is a he, 100% it'll turn out he's evil and he dies the same expansion. I'm still surprised Isgarren survived SotO. 

[PzTnT.7198]

On 10/13/2024 at 4:49 AM, GeraldBC.4927 said:

Before? Nah. If the tree is a he, 100% it'll turn out he's evil and he dies the same expansion. I'm still surprised Isgarren survived SotO. 

Id assume said tree to end up in the hands of the nightmare court and be destroyed in the same expansion myself. With a mess like with the charr civil war, but for the sylvari. Optionally the pale tree dies and the sylvari have to move to the other tree to survive. Possibly with a new starter area to boot.

Edited October 14 by PzTnT.7198

[anninke.7469]

I don't see the appeal of any Tree being evil or destroyed. Do we seriously have to do/want this all the time? I'd like to see more sylvari "sources" instead, I guess. Folks of any other race can come from so many places, so having at least one more for sylvari would be nice. Ideally with a little different style to make things interesting.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 10/13/2024 at 12:49 PM, GeraldBC.4927 said:

I agree that would be a cool storyline to do, but it doesn't lend itself to how GW2 is designed. The areas that any content takes place in for longer than one story instance (I mean long enough to be an overworld zone with events and so on), have to be located in a place that can be placed on the Tyrian world map, the one you see when you press m. What you propose would work for other games where the world map is separated out into separate world maps, but a crucial part of gw2's map feature is that you see the entire game's world with the press of one button. 

They've already done it with Nayos - technically on the map, but lorewise it's in the Mists. Mind you, GW3 has been mentioned as something that's at least being thought about, so it's possible that it's a plot thread that won't be fully developed in GW2, but might be hinted at like some of the GW2 plot threads were foreshadowed in GW1.

On 10/13/2024 at 12:49 PM, GeraldBC.4927 said:

I am actually interested in knowing where that implication is, I want to read it myself. 

Off the top of my head, the main source is The Ecology of the Charr: "No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains." The portion of charr territory we can currently visit all classifies as "the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains" - the implication being that the charr expanded north from somewhere else, then west, and then south again. Planet of the Grawl indicates that the grawl were the original inhabitants of Ascalon before the charr conquered it (and then humans, and then charr again).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

41 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

They've already done it with Nayos - technically on the map, but lorewise it's in the Mists. Mind you, GW3 has been mentioned as something that's at least being thought about, so it's possible that it's a plot thread that won't be fully developed in GW2, but might be hinted at like some of the GW2 plot threads were foreshadowed in GW1.

To be fair, a single map of floating chunks of land in the Mists placed over the ocean where there'd be nothing much of interest is a far cry from what is essentially a second planet of many zones (even if it's just 3-4 maps for a single expansion) slapped over Tyria.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

To be fair, a single map of floating chunks of land in the Mists placed over the ocean where there'd be nothing much of interest is a far cry from what is essentially a second planet of many zones (even if it's just 3-4 maps for a single expansion) slapped over Tyria.

It does serve as a proof-of-concept, and if there's space somewhere they don't intend to use for something else, it could work for more than just one map. There's plenty of unused ocean estate if, for instance, the story involved using the Battle Isles as a hub and staging area.

Lorewise I'm not even sure Amnytas is actually where it's shown on the map - I think there are references in Skywatch to Amnytas being far above, but that could be speakers simply knowing that it's somewhere up in the sky rather than knowing it's actually close by if the vertical separation was ignored. The tower is in only one place on the map, but it explicitly teleports when you progress from the Skywatch part of the story to the Amnytas part.

[Poormany.4507]

More possibly Dzalana-related lore about harpies in the latest gem store post: "One legend claims that Dwayna’s holy guards were once ascended harpies"

Combined with the Dzalana expedition lore hints during the JW prologue, I wonder if such "ascended harpies" will serve as the Dzalana Tyrian Alliance additions, like the Lowland Kodan did in JW or if the Astral Ward already have such an "ascended harpy" in their ranks.

Edited Sunday at 10:03 PM by Poormany.4507

[Wyrdern.4092]

6 hours ago, Poormany.4507 said:

More possibly Dzalana-related lore about harpies in the latest gem store post: "One legend claims that Dwayna’s holy guards were once ascended harpies"

Combined with the Dzalana expedition lore hints during the JW prologue, I wonder if such "ascended harpies" will serve as the Dzalana Tyrian Alliance additions, like the Lowland Kodan did in JW or if the Astral Ward already have such an "ascended harpy" in their ranks.

They honestly could do a lot of things since there is very little solid GW2 lore on harpies as I found out researching for my own character ... 

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Poormany.4507 said:

More possibly Dzalana-related lore about harpies in the latest gem store post: "One legend claims that Dwayna’s holy guards were once ascended harpies"

Combined with the Dzalana expedition lore hints during the JW prologue, I wonder if such "ascended harpies" will serve as the Dzalana Tyrian Alliance additions, like the Lowland Kodan did in JW or if the Astral Ward already have such an "ascended harpy" in their ranks.

I did notice that. It's kinda the inverse of the legend cited in the Nightfall manual, that harpies were former servants of Dwayna that fell...

[Narcemus.1348]

20 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I did notice that. It's kinda the inverse of the legend cited in the Nightfall manual, that harpies were former servants of Dwayna that fell...

I think that they may have worded it weird, but I can still read this as there was once an ascended type of Harpy that served Dwayna and now the Harpies we see are those that fell.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

17 hours ago, Poormany.4507 said:

More possibly Dzalana-related lore about harpies in the latest gem store post: "One legend claims that Dwayna’s holy guards were once ascended harpies"

Combined with the Dzalana expedition lore hints during the JW prologue, I wonder if such "ascended harpies" will serve as the Dzalana Tyrian Alliance additions, like the Lowland Kodan did in JW or if the Astral Ward already have such an "ascended harpy" in their ranks.

It's also interesting to note that the griffon-like Valravn in JW may be a reference to the harpy young in Nightfall, which looked like griffons. A handful of dialogues and events talk about valravns trying to eat the hearts of kodan cubs (and from their corpses); if they do they "evolve" into something similar to a harpy.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I did notice that. It's kinda the inverse of the legend cited in the Nightfall manual, that harpies were former servants of Dwayna that fell...

Inverse? They're basically the same thing, just worded differently.

"Dwayna's followers fell and became harpies" "Ascended harpies were once Dwayna's followers".

The ascended part implies not-fallen.

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Inverse? They're basically the same thing, just worded differently.

"Dwayna's followers fell and became harpies" "Ascended harpies were once Dwayna's followers".

The ascended part implies not-fallen.

No, because each involves a verb that indicates a change in status, but the direction of the change is reversed. The Nightfall version indicates that they started off as Dwayna's followers, but some fell to become the first harpies. While the version in the recent BLTC update indicates that harpies came first, but some ascended to become Dwayna's holy guards. 

A different adjective would be more appropriate to imply not-fallen, but ascended implies they started from the lower state and rose to the higher state.

[Narcemus.1348]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

No, because each involves a verb that indicates a change in status, but the direction of the change is reversed. The Nightfall version indicates that they started off as Dwayna's followers, but some fell to become the first harpies. While the version in the recent BLTC update indicates that harpies came first, but some ascended to become Dwayna's holy guards. 

A different adjective would be more appropriate to imply not-fallen, but ascended implies they started from the lower state and rose to the higher state.

I think you are overcomplicating it. I think Ascended is just being used as a way to say that the Harpies that serve Dwayna are ascended in comparison to the Harpies we find in Tyria today. It doesn't mean that Harpies ascended to be followers of Dwayna, just that compared with what we see around us, those Harpies are ascended.

[Wyrdern.4092]

Either way it would be interesting to see if there is anything more to harpies than what we see currently as pretty generic enemies with no real story beyond hating everything that doesn't fly and only really exist to be killed for various events or heart missions.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

23 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

No, because each involves a verb that indicates a change in status, but the direction of the change is reversed. The Nightfall version indicates that they started off as Dwayna's followers, but some fell to become the first harpies. While the version in the recent BLTC update indicates that harpies came first, but some ascended to become Dwayna's holy guards. 

A different adjective would be more appropriate to imply not-fallen, but ascended implies they started from the lower state and rose to the higher state.

I disagree. Largely because the original Nightfall myth doesn't say that they weren't harpies in the first place, but also because that feels like a potayeto/potahto situation.

If you take this line in complete isolation, I can see the interpretation of "they started as harpies, and some ascended something greater while others remained harpies", but that's not being said. All it says is "the holy guard were once something more than current harpies" really, which is the same thing the nightfall legend says - that "they were something more, and then fell to their current form".

I can see your interpretation as a valid take, but it requires you to take it in isolation from previous lore or assume it's intentionally worded to be a retcon / unreliable narrator's alternate take, but such isn't innately implied at all.

[draxynnic.3719]

The description in Nightfall does sound to me like the pre-fall harpies were something else. Possibly still avian, but it's worth keeping in mind that harpies being ugly and ill-tempered is a pretty consistent part of how harpies are described. I'd put it to you that a bird-like race that is beautiful and behaves as would be expected from close attendants of Dwayna would not be considered harpies, even if they are related.

And that's assuming that the additional bird features weren't part of the punishment and the original wasn't more angelic - possibly even the Avatars of Dwayna we actually see in GW1.

I think it is possible that the writers were just a little careless with their choice of wording, but the choice of the verb-derived adjective "ascended" does seem to be implying that the process might go both ways. Maybe, at some point in Tyria's history, possibly even as late as GW1, it was possible for harpies to redeem themselves and be ascended back into the fold of Dwayna's faithful. Which would explain why harpies have remained as they are (those that aspired to be something better were removed from the pool if they succeeded) and could have interesting ramifications for harpies after the departure of the gods.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

I think "ascended harpies" is a reliable way to refer to a "something else" when you don't have the actual name of said "something else" in situations like this. Especially if we're talking academic take on legends like the gemstore quote seems to be taking inspiration from, it'd be falsification to just label them as angels when angels are an actual thing in Tyrian folklore.

As to harpies being ugly... In Greek myth, sure, but in Tyria? I dunno. They don't look ugly to me. GW1 skin complexion is bad but while the mask hides too much of the face to tell what we see is pretty standard humanoid average at worse. And GW2 depictions of harpies feels much more "humanoid that's not human" and would be in the range of as ugly / good looking as, say, teiflings. And I think we all know that's not enough to deter people. So I wouldn't classify Tyrian harpies as demonstrably ugly.