Elementalist balance PvP & WvW

[PelloJello.8241]

 land your meatier showers

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Guys I still don't get why Elemental Celerity is 60sec CD in wvw, but 90sec in pve ?
"But it's 25sec recharge time in WvW, not 100%" yeah but how many skills have longer CD than 25sec ?
60sec it's pretty fair I guess. 90sec in pve is kitten, and the poor 6sec solo boon IF you're into jade sphere's field ... really ? Make it 30sec, no boon.

Weave Self. An elite skill that carry the whole e-spec because of the huge modifiers, while they  kept nerfing modifiers in the traitlane : 90sec in pve, 75 in wvw ?

Arcane Prowess : fury in pvp/wvw. But still might in pve while elementalist begs since a decade for fury in more traitlanes, and utility skills.

I am may be one of the few, but actually I enjoy the Elementalist in WvW (~PvP) much more than in PvE. 
Quickness cata is trash-tier + kitten "celestial modifier" ;  no boon on weaver, ridiculous sustain ;  tempest is carried by long cast - long CD overloads and  stupidly high but very short modifier, damp squib for solo content.

[Rocker.2906]

What can men (Eles) do against such reckless hate(thiefs, wbs)? 

To me, coming from a lot of other MMOs, Mesmer is the one that embodies the mage archetype here. Portals, magical invisibility, ranged damage... except that it uses clones instead of traditional summons. Elementalist I'd compare with WoW's Shaman. Able to explode anyone in a matter of seconds, but also people can do the same to you. I just wish Ele had more viable archetypes. Staff-core-ele used to be a good bunker, anyone remember those?   

[Ragnarox.9601]

On 9/9/2024 at 8:07 PM, Rocker.2906 said:

What can men (Eles) do against such reckless hate(thiefs, wbs)? 

To me, coming from a lot of other MMOs, Mesmer is the one that embodies the mage archetype here. Portals, magical invisibility, ranged damage... except that it uses clones instead of traditional summons. Elementalist I'd compare with WoW's Shaman. Able to explode anyone in a matter of seconds, but also people can do the same to you. I just wish Ele had more viable archetypes. Staff-core-ele used to be a good bunker, anyone remember those?   

Shaman is dead in wow, and half dead in gw2. Spear is not helping at all. 

[Rocker.2906]

1 minute ago, Ragnarox.9601 said:

Shaman is dead in wow, and half dead in gw2. Spear is not helping at all. 

Last season I got 2,2k in Ele and 2k on Enh, shaman is very much not dead! On the contrary, it was one of the most played ranged dps specs. Ele is much more dead, unfortunately... which makes me sad, since its the class that caught my eye and made me start with gw2 way back in vanilla/HoT. Right now my Ele is just a bot for anniversary rewards and chest parking. 

[The Ghost.3087]

On 9/13/2024 at 7:09 PM, Rocker.2906 said:

Last season I got 2,2k in Ele and 2k on Enh, shaman is very much not dead! On the contrary, it was one of the most played ranged dps specs. Ele is much more dead, unfortunately... which makes me sad, since its the class that caught my eye and made me start with gw2 way back in vanilla/HoT. Right now my Ele is just a bot for anniversary rewards and chest parking. 

I completely understand how you feel. The class that caught my attention at the very beginning when I start playing GW2, was the Elementalist with a Staff, regretfully, these days Ele is always at the bottom ranks simply because devs don't want to put enough time in the Eles updates, or are afraid that they will grow too strong which is ridiculous considering how other classes in game do almost double the damage of Ele and they don't seem concerned about them. 

Such a pity, that ArenaNet, neglects so hard Eles since 2015 onward, I believe Eles were strongest when HoT released with Tempest, condi DPS, but they nerfed that out almost right away, within a week or so, they were too afraid to let them shine even for a week. Such a huge disappointment, really. And I wish our words were reaching ArenaNet but they seem to not reach them the way we want them to reach. 

One positive thing though, with the next balance patch, at least Ele quick will be a possibility, but still, they neglect to boost Eles damage in PvE to a rewarding level considering how hard the class is to play. 

Edited September 17 by The Ghost.3087

[CafPow.1542]

To be fair: in pve fresh air tempest is quite good.

just because it seems to do no damage.

[Coldtart.4785]

There seems to be some fundamental incompatibility between how GW2 is played and how ele works because ele only ever seems to be a top class when it has access to something utterly broken.

[Jski.6180]

Needing to go into melee is an real issues for ele (tempest more so then weaver and cata). Now we are seeing an buff to d/d well more of them the lack of effects say "take 0 dmg for x sec" with out needing to put your self into an channeled state.

At least spear getting an dmg buff though any type of lag comply messese up eche game play.

 

[igmolicious.5986]

I'd just like to see Elementalist get new weapons that are as good as the last 2 Warrior has gotten (yes, I have deep-seated Warrior envy after those). Neither Warrior staff nor spear relied on weird gimmicks to perfom well -- I want a simple, well performing weapon that can be used effectively in competitive modes without jumping through hoops.

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 9/8/2024 at 2:25 AM, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

ele is dead in wvw.

Squads kick out eles. They want fb, druid, scrapper, necros, warriors, holos, a chrono or two and revs.

Roaming? Roam as a ele in a world infected with thieves and willbenders.

Ele is dead and ANET murdered it.

I roam on ele regularly on a variety of different specs and can hold my own against the best thieves in the game.

I get pinged by WVW commanders to join their zergs as staff weaver artillery. Staff weaver still the best class/spec for DPS vs large blobs in a constricted area.

Ele does have a very high skill floor but it definitely still works just fine when played well.

I think Ele does need buffs (in WVW) but only to its weak/unusable weapons: hammer, pistol, spear and to a lesser extent, warhorn & sword. Staff/dagger/sceptre are pretty much fine.

Edited September 25 by scerevisiae.1972

[CafPow.1542]

On 9/25/2024 at 11:37 AM, scerevisiae.1972 said:

I roam on ele regularly on a variety of different specs and can hold my own against the best thieves in the game.

I get pinged by WVW commanders to join their zergs as staff weaver artillery. Staff weaver still the best class/spec for DPS vs large blobs in a constricted area.

Ele does have a very high skill floor but it definitely still works just fine when played well.

I think Ele does need buffs (in WVW) but only to its weak/unusable weapons: hammer, pistol, spear and to a lesser extent, warhorn & sword. Staff/dagger/sceptre are pretty much fine.

I have the same feeling. Also: make weaver roaming a bit better. I see a bunch of tempests and catalysts roaming but weavers are mostly in zergs. Which is okay, but could be tweaked a little?

also i‘d like more core usability through all classes, that would improve build variety i think but that’s another thing.

[scerevisiae.1972]

1 hour ago, CafPow.1542 said:

I have the same feeling. Also: make weaver roaming a bit better. I see a bunch of tempests and catalysts roaming but weavers are mostly in zergs. Which is okay, but could be tweaked a little?

also i‘d like more core usability through all classes, that would improve build variety i think but that’s another thing.

Weaver is getting a small buff this coming patch with 5->3CD on the GM trait condi cleanse.

For sceptre, the recent nerf to earth/air i think was probably unnecessary, it's a 1-shot spec and often can't 1-shot anymore, which is a bit rough considered Sc weaver has no real sustain, stealth etc like a thief would have. That said it's certainly still playable. The biggest issue with weaver IMO is how much of a restriction the 4sec attunement CD imposes on weapon choice and playstyle.

Sword weaver is in a bad place as the game has been heavily mobility powercrept so it can't keep up, literally. Still ok versus specs that can't kite it.

Hammer weaver is still as bruisy as ever, just very slow and easily kited. Hammer just needs either more ranged skills or another mobility skill to be more generally viable in WVW.

Overall weaver is just mid to average overall and definitely not meta. I think the stance nerf (barrier->protection) hurt a lot and was fairly unjustified as weaver wasn't that strong before the change anyway.

If I could choose what to change I would definitely be directing attention to making the really terrible (in WVW) weapons relevant -- hammer (more ranged skills, or mobility), pistol (full rework, it sucks), spear (more damage or more utility, pick 1, cause staff beats it in both areas), and maybe sword (make the fire 2 leap be 600 range).

Edited September 27 by scerevisiae.1972

[CafPow.1542]

I‘d make unravel an F5 and in the place of unravel make a mini-weave-self like you only have to swap 1-2 times and get a smaller bonus or something like that.

[Jski.6180]

3 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

I‘d make unravel an F5 and in the place of unravel make a mini-weave-self like you only have to swap 1-2 times and get a smaller bonus or something like that.

Just make dule skill have an -100% cd to there main atument like spear has (update spear dule skills to buff the player more.) Make unravel doble atument you to your off atument (also make that an F5 hehe.)

Then give weaver self quickness and alactiry.

[Bleikopf.2491]

Tempest is amazing. You can play Condi, Power and Heal all on the same spec with or without Alacrity. The Utilities are all useful and feel impactful. All the buffs and changes over the years made it a spec that's easy to enjoy. Traits are actually meaningful. It can even find a space in Zergs as cleanse bot. 

Catalyst is strong, but clunky. Many modifiers in the traits, but overall a very dull trait line. My Staff Catalyst sucks and I need to train it more. Augments are really lame but have their niches. 

Weaver is.. different. I prefer playing Weaver in WvW. Weaver Staff is strong and for roaming I play Lightning Rod Dagger/Focus. The changes to Arcane Wave and the upcoming buffs for Dagger help me a lot. I know this is not a PvE-Thread, but playing Weaver in PvE without Quickness/Alacrity is a chore. The trait line feels a lot more restricted, compared to Tempest and Catalyst. Barriers feel too low without Healing power, modifiers have been nerfed, ICDs everywhere. The stances are mid, Twist of Fate got outright murdered. I cannot remember if they have always all been ammunition skills? 

Staff has some very nice utility and I assume will always be a staple because of that. 

Focus could use some buffs I guess. Pistol has a few very cool skills and then a ton more of "high cast time to shoot one weird projectile that applies an extra condition/barrier if you have a bullet stored". Also projectiles. 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

 I love unravel; I practically use it everywhere. But I doubt making unravel an F5 skill would make it more appealing for players, as it is still a high ceiling skill with APM, muscular reflex, etc and somehow goes against "Weaver" with the loss of dual skills and dual attunement.
I know the cost of an utility slot is quite heavy for weaver in pvp/wvw, but IMO if people don't play Unravel isn't because of this, but because it just makes rotations even harder.
Could be great for pve to easily trigger elements of rage, but for pvp/wvw it wouldn't make the spec "easier". Unravel on F5 (the whole skill, not grinded) is great idea, but isn't a priority, as it feels like a "major" change.

Edited September 27 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

20 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

Weaver is getting a small buff this coming patch with 5->3CD on the GM trait condi cleanse.

For sceptre, the recent nerf to earth/air i think was probably unnecessary, it's a 1-shot spec and often can't 1-shot anymore, which is a bit rough considered Sc weaver has no real sustain, stealth etc like a thief would have. That said it's certainly still playable. The biggest issue with weaver IMO is how much of a restriction the 4sec attunement CD imposes on weapon choice and playstyle.

Sword weaver is in a bad place as the game has been heavily mobility powercrept so it can't keep up, literally. Still ok versus specs that can't kite it.

Hammer weaver is still as bruisy as ever, just very slow and easily kited. Hammer just needs either more ranged skills or another mobility skill to be more generally viable in WVW.

Overall weaver is just mid to average overall and definitely not meta. I think the stance nerf (barrier->protection) hurt a lot and was fairly unjustified as weaver wasn't that strong before the change anyway.

If I could choose what to change I would definitely be directing attention to making the really terrible (in WVW) weapons relevant -- hammer (more ranged skills, or mobility), pistol (full rework, it sucks), spear (more damage or more utility, pick 1, cause staff beats it in both areas), and maybe sword (make the fire 2 leap be 600 range).

Weaver is also getting several nerfs, particularly to the roaming version.  Bolstered Elements no longer automatically triggers at 50% health, Elemental Refreshment no longer works in an AoE (no compensatory buff in PVP/WvW), and we're losing a lot of stats from celestial.

I've made a backup build for my playstyle post cele nerf, but I don't have much confidence in it.  The gist is simple: hope the immense amount of self-sustain will carry the build.  The change to woven stride means that cleansing water is no longer necessary, freeing up Soothing Power.  With that, alongside of the amount of healing sources I've stacked onto the build, just about anything but a full marauder opponent is going to struggle to take it down.  Problem is, 7/10 roamers are marauder willbenders...

Edited September 28 by Blood Red Arachnid.2493

[CafPow.1542]

11 hours ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

Tempest is amazing. You can play Condi, Power and Heal all on the same spec with or without Alacrity. The Utilities are all useful and feel impactful. All the buffs and changes over the years made it a spec that's easy to enjoy. Traits are actually meaningful. It can even find a space in Zergs as cleanse bot. 

Catalyst is strong, but clunky. Many modifiers in the traits, but overall a very dull trait line. My Staff Catalyst sucks and I need to train it more. Augments are really lame but have their niches. 

Weaver is.. different. I prefer playing Weaver in WvW. Weaver Staff is strong and for roaming I play Lightning Rod Dagger/Focus. The changes to Arcane Wave and the upcoming buffs for Dagger help me a lot. I know this is not a PvE-Thread, but playing Weaver in PvE without Quickness/Alacrity is a chore. The trait line feels a lot more restricted, compared to Tempest and Catalyst. Barriers feel too low without Healing power, modifiers have been nerfed, ICDs everywhere. The stances are mid, Twist of Fate got outright murdered. I cannot remember if they have always all been ammunition skills? 

Staff has some very nice utility and I assume will always be a staple because of that. 

Focus could use some buffs I guess. Pistol has a few very cool skills and then a ton more of "high cast time to shoot one weird projectile that applies an extra condition/barrier if you have a bullet stored". Also projectiles. 

My man.

i feel the same. In pve i play weaver sometimes with a spear tho. Just 5-4-2-3-5 swap repeat. Works out there and for open world it’s enough. 
in „serious“ pve (fractals n stuff) just fresh air tempest. Ez pz.

[Ragnarox.9601]

Yea I wish they make simple weapons like warrior/guardians got, press for dmg and no other gimmicks involved like dodge 3 times press 3 fire 3 air then if you are alive press for big dps(like 5k dmg) skill and bam your target dodged the attack.

Ele/ weaver is already complicated in heavy skill oriented environment like wvw, why more complications? Do we need to suffer more?

I dont get this strategy, hammer has its own gimmick, pistol has its own and now spear(and they are all very bad for wvw and pvp)...god can we please get sword offhand with no gimmicks, or shield or even longbow. Can we simply get that one without any gimmick? Thats what I am asking.

 

 

Edited September 29 by Ragnarox.9601

[CafPow.1542]

10 hours ago, Ragnarox.9601 said:

Yea I wish they make simple weapons like warrior/guardians got, press for dmg and no other gimmicks involved like dodge 3 times press 3 fire 3 air then if you are alive press for big dps(like 5k dmg) skill and bam your target dodged the attack.

Ele/ weaver is already complicated in heavy skill oriented environment like wvw, why more complications? Do we need to suffer more?

I dont get this strategy, hammer has its own gimmick, pistol has its own and now spear(and they are all very bad for wvw and pvp)...god can we please get sword offhand with no gimmicks, or shield or even longbow. Can we simply get that one without any gimmick? Thats what I am asking.

 

 

Funny enough…

staff, dagger, focus etc all have gimmicks.

combos and auras. It should really be focused more on that imo.

 

but let’s check spear on catalyst shall we?

the main combo fields that don’t do nothing but block your view are under the caster which is useless if you use your blast finishers at range (what you wanna do since you wanna hit things).

okay so you can place jade spheres at the enemy…. But! You want to have them under yourself cause the boons they provide.

hahahahahahaha

this is so absurd.

[Jaising.7253]

On 8/27/2024 at 6:10 PM, Flowki.7194 said:

Ele in sPVP has been a push over since scepter condi/power co nerfs. That patch destroyed almost all workable builds. The only builds I have seen that are remotely competitive, were the weaver meme 1 shot builds (short lived becuase of all the block-immune spam) and the current tempest condi build, which still doesn't get much play becuase SPB destroys it on sides, and its a bad group fighter, as are all ele dagger main hand builds. Im not so sure about ele spear, but the times I faught it, the specs did some decent damage but folded under pressure, like a thief/wb+X jump, it just folds.

 

They need to buff scepter condi, and buff pistol power co. No decent range options means ele is forced into duelist roles, and if it isn't meta duelist, which it isn't.. it can't even do that role.

You forgot to mention the Ele hacks with perma auras, no cooldowns on teleport and can literally one shot you while your stun locked.

 

No cleanse, stun break or any other mechanic works against these hacks.

 

There is about 2 or 3 Ele and 2 catas that all use the exact rotation while permanently buffs and auras are up.

 

They are solo, not near anyone else and run full steam into groups of 5 -10 players. 

Every attack results in immune, block, evade or invulnerable. 

 

Just not possible to beat groups like that solo and literally teleport away at will, well under the cooldown. Then use teleport a 2nd or in rarer cases a 3rd time in a row

 

I'm not picking on Ele, they are rare for sure. But the cheats and hacks are real and that's the only way an Ele dare roam in the boonball age.

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

I gotta be honest... after 12 years... and especially 3 close-ranged especs later... I'm almost done talking about ele, cause it seems like Anet doesn't care. It seems like Anet wants Ele to only be a melee character, or a very bad buffbot, or a very bad healer.

I agree that Virtuoso is a much better ranged power mage than ele will ever be... unless the devs pull their heads out of the sand and finally give us a good, easy to play, ranged espec with good damaging utility skills. Also with a weapon that focuses and damage while rewarding movement and is easy to kite with (ie, no etching-like crap)

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

On 9/30/2024 at 5:01 PM, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

I gotta be honest... after 12 years... and especially 3 close-ranged especs later... I'm almost done talking about ele, cause it seems like Anet doesn't care. It seems like Anet wants Ele to only be a melee character, or a very bad buffbot, or a very bad healer.

I agree that Virtuoso is a much better ranged power mage than ele will ever be... unless the devs pull their heads out of the sand and finally give us a good, easy to play, ranged espec with good damaging utility skills. Also with a weapon that focuses and damage while rewarding movement and is easy to kite with (ie, no etching-like crap)

They released the Pistol with SotO.  It does all of it's damage at 900 range.  I won't lie that it takes a bit of learning, since you need to keep track of the bullets you have up.  But, if you can handle that, then condi pistol builds can output a lot of damage at 900 range.  Since ele is no longer my WvW toon I've unhooked her from the jumping puzzle she was stationed at, and have been using condi weaver (with pistol) for a lot of things.  Soloing bounties, soloing low level fractals, commanding group events, etc.  I'm not even running a trailblazer build.  Doing all this in full viper.

Though it isn't new, they've also buffed Scepter to the point where it's the strongest strike damage build ele has.  You can still use condi scepter if you want.  That option hasn't left the table.  Scepter, too, is a 900 range weapon.  When it comes to utilities, strike damage builds don't have many options, but condi builds do.  I'm currently sitting on Signet of Fire, Signet of Earth, and Glyph of Elemental Power for maximized range damage.  However, you can also use Glyph of lesser elements, glyph of storms, primordial stance (weaver), and feel the burn (tempest).  

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

5 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

They released the Pistol with SotO.  It does all of it's damage at 900 range.  I won't lie that it takes a bit of learning, since you need to keep track of the bullets you have up.  But, if you can handle that, then condi pistol builds can output a lot of damage at 900 range.  Since ele is no longer my WvW toon I've unhooked her from the jumping puzzle she was stationed at, and have been using condi weaver (with pistol) for a lot of things.  Soloing bounties, soloing low level fractals, commanding group events, etc.  I'm not even running a trailblazer build.  Doing all this in full viper.

Though it isn't new, they've also buffed Scepter to the point where it's the strongest strike damage build ele has.  You can still use condi scepter if you want.  That option hasn't left the table.  Scepter, too, is a 900 range weapon.  When it comes to utilities, strike damage builds don't have many options, but condi builds do.  I'm currently sitting on Signet of Fire, Signet of Earth, and Glyph of Elemental Power for maximized range damage.  However, you can also use Glyph of lesser elements, glyph of storms, primordial stance (weaver), and feel the burn (tempest).  

congratulations on finding a build you enjoy... i don't enjoy 900 range combat... it forces me to be closer than i prefer on my elementalist... that's why i compared it specifically to Virtuoso. i prefer 1200-1500 range that lets me nuke the target while kiting... Virtuoso is more of a bunch of machine guns, though, but it feels like AHnold's squad in Predator ripping apart the forest while capping off hundreds of rounds at once. Ele doesn't have that kind of "FIRE EVERYTHING!!!!"  glass canon Build (like Virtuoso or sic'em longbow soulbeast) nor does it ever feel like the Enola Gay dropping "Little Boy" on those pesky enemy blobs... (like pre nerf spear warrior or rifle deadeye) 

at least GW1 "nuker" builds felt like nuker builds, (sans Ensign ele damage vs warrior damage article) felt like a nuker class. GW2 long range Ele feels like a vase getting knocked off the table by a cat.

please keep in mind the thread is about PvP and WvW balance, not PvE, and so are my comments in this thread, though i would still like the build/s i describe ( FIRE EVERYTHING! and nuclear bomb) in PvE as well.

Edited Wednesday at 10:06 AM by Forgotten Legend.9281