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Why no stories about Playable Races in new expansions?


wolfof.1842

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hello,

after the Dragons I thought the game expand the story of our playable races like Asura, Charr... but the last 2 expansions were:

1: Wizard, kryptis, mists
2: Kodan, titans...

I wonder they don't write about for example:

  • origin of Asura in depths
  • Charr defeat ghosts of Ascalon
  • Sylvari discover Malyck tree

Why they don't make new expansions about main races and plot of GW2? instead of unknown wizards, brown kodan bears... 

hope you understand what I talk about

Edited by wolfof.1842
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Why they don't make expansions about main races and plot of GW2 anymore? instead of unknown wizards, brown kodan bears... 

Its arguable that ANY GW2 expansion has been ABOUT the main races.

  • HoT was about fighting Mordremoth. Anet just used that as an opportunity to delve more into Sylvari and Asura.
  • PoF was about stopping Balthazar from killing Kralk. It was just an easy way to also go to the desert/Elona.
  • EoD was about stopping the Void. That was just an easy excuse to go to Cantha.

And like, most of the major races don't have THAT many problems left

  • Kryta: White Mantel are dead, and Centaurs were pushed back into their own lands.
  • Norn: Jormag is dead, and the Svanir and Icebrood are crushed, so they have little resistance in going back to explore/resettle their old homelands.
  • Charr: Kralk and his Branded have been defeated, the Flame Legion has been reintegrated into Charr society, and while some small remnants of the Renegades/Dominion still exist, they lack the real size or power to be major enemies.
  • Asura: Primordus and its Destroyers are dead, leaving little in the way to stop the Asura from reclaiming some of their old cities if they want to.
  • Elona: Joko is dead, Kralk is dead, and the various groups in Elona have come together to form a coalition government.
  • Cantha: Aetherblades have been defeated, the Void issue stopped, and Cantha has been opened up and brought back into international politics.

The only one of the major races that still has a major issue is the Sylvari trying to find help for the Pale Tree, and JW clearly set that up as a future plot idea to explore.

The two major threats left in established GW2 canon that still need to be dealt with are the Deep Sea Monster(which isn't really bothering any of the five playable races), and the Lyssa/god plot which I suspect Anet will get to doing after JW.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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Two big plots they seemed to hint was the fact that Charr are finally ready to elect a Khan-Ur (they even dropped a name of this process, "The Trial of Embers", which can be a great name for a charr-centric expansion), and that expac could be finally dealing with the rest of Dominion, Bangar and maybe Ascalonian Ghosts topic.

Second one is Elonians suddenly attempting to go further into Dzalana for some reason (it's literally a mountainous and desert region that wasn't properly settled and explored ever) and Braham voicing a desire to see it as well - that was very oddly specific; one might think that he would rather lead reclamation efforts in the furthest northern reaches of Tyria.

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  • wolfof.1842 changed the title to Why not more story about Playable Races instead...?
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Its arguable that ANY GW2 expansion has been ABOUT the main races.

I change the title to make my question more clear, I think more like "why the story in new expansions not expand Charr, Asura... story instead inventing new kodan race" for example. 

Isn't there more to learn about Charr? we only have personal story, Olmakhan and Icebrood civil war, maybe I missed something. But never solved the ghosts and clean/rebuild Ascalon?

Asura said they lived under surface in the past, but we never go there and see old culture before advance tech devices, the origin of the race, we know nothing about?

Edited by wolfof.1842
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  • wolfof.1842 changed the title to Why no stories about Playable Races in new expansions?

I think it kinda is about humans and charr - we're essentially getting further development of the White Mantle, mursaat, and titans that are fairly intimately tied into the human and charr story. The bearkin just happen to be the local inhabitants. It might also turn out that there's a reason Caithe is one of the main NPCs for this expansion. The story for the expansion still hasn't fully played out yet - in fact, it felt fairly anticlimactic compared to SotO.

It's also worth noting that the bearkin also seem to have debunked one of the theories about where the norn came from. That's progress in the form of pruning one theory without actually confirming the competing theory, but it's still progress.

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41 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's also worth noting that the bearkin also seem to have debunked one of the theories about where the norn came from. That's progress in the form of pruning one theory without actually confirming the competing theory, but it's still progress.

TBF, IBS had kinda already done with with some Kodan talking about that story in Bjora, and it basically getting called BS.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think it kinda is about humans and charr - we're essentially getting further development of the White Mantle, mursaat, and titans that are fairly intimately tied into the human and charr story. The bearkin just happen to be the local inhabitants. It might also turn out that there's a reason Caithe is one of the main NPCs for this expansion. The story for the expansion still hasn't fully played out yet - in fact, it felt fairly anticlimactic compared to SotO.

It's also worth noting that the bearkin also seem to have debunked one of the theories about where the norn came from. That's progress in the form of pruning one theory without actually confirming the competing theory, but it's still progress.

many new Kodan models in game, launcher with Kodan theme, maps/events about Kodan culture... looks like more than only some creatures on the side of story

Maybe they just show one old NPC every expansion now, last time. Zojja. this time: Caithe. next time: ...

but really I can't say what actual theme or topic of the expansion is: Kodan-Human-Charr-Caithe... in janthir

  • before in SotO: wizards, mists creatures... islands flying above Maguuma 

They invent new ally and threats instead of completing main races plot waiting for years already sadly.
Like 5 maps in Ascalon with Charr vs human ghosts since 2012, will Charr just fight forever or they find a solution finally?

Edited by wolfof.1842
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Oh, so you wanted even more customisable options for playable races?

There's nothing wrong with introducing a new culture in a previously isolated region. But from a story perspective, apart from the Waiting Sorrow tie-in with the Astral Ward, the locals could have been pretty much anyone except the playable nations.

But as for inventing "new threats" - nah mate, the story is picking up threads from the very first instalment of the franchise. And it's not over, so we don't know what might be coming.

Edited by draxynnic.3719
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I just hope they DO something with the Pale Tree situation. If they just leave it hanging after what Caithe said, it'll be quite a punch in the gut for everyone giving a fig about sylvari.

Edited by anninke.7469
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8 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

I prefer a dynamic story instead of forcing a story to be about a race. Stuff happens. People react to the stuff that happens. Any story written about race-archetypes becomes pretty boring imho.

 

then we just leave main playable races hang there without main story? I think many players are interested about them, see Icebrood Civil War and Charr.

Stuff happens... random wizards reveal on flying islands teleporting around, fight creatures that just show up one day? 

Tyria is big, has many known races and important plots ready there.
It is all wasted when they never write about it: Charr, Asura, Sylvari...

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28 minutes ago, wolfof.1842 said:

then we just leave main playable races hang there without main story? I think many players are interested about them, see Icebrood Civil War and Charr.

 

People have stories. Races have not.

Do you want homogenous masses? An endless "Alliance vs Horde"? Don't get me wrong, I think there are interesting stories to tell within Tyria that are linked to the history of some races (Ascalon Ghosts, Ancient underground dwarfenn cities, Mursaat), but considering the story has evolved towards a more united Tyria, creating a story that only affects one race would greatly break with everything that has happened so far, Even though I half-jokingly always advocate for a war-storyline so the humans can claim back ascalon.

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1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said:

People have stories. Races have not.

Do you want homogenous masses? An endless "Alliance vs Horde"? Don't get me wrong, I think there are interesting stories to tell within Tyria that are linked to the history of some races (Ascalon Ghosts, Ancient underground dwarfenn cities, Mursaat), but considering the story has evolved towards a more united Tyria, creating a story that only affects one race would greatly break with everything that has happened so far, Even though I half-jokingly always advocate for a war-storyline so the humans can claim back ascalon.

maybe a matter of different words, because you also agree Ascalon ghosts are interesting story to tell.

So we could have for example:

  • Mini expansion 1: Ghosts of Ascalon, Charr
  • Mini expansion 2: Depths of Tyria, Asura/dwarfs
  • ...

United groups help a member/region/country if they need help, even look at real life events like that.
United Tyria can help the Charr with Ascalon, to secure the region for the population of Tyria

You join forces, help deal with a conflict, move on and solve next conflict of another group. 

Nothing really speak against a story like that in united Tyria I think?

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4 hours ago, wolfof.1842 said:

then we just leave main playable races hang there without main story? I think many players are interested about them, see Icebrood Civil War and Charr.

Stuff happens... random wizards reveal on flying islands teleporting around, fight creatures that just show up one day? 

Tyria is big, has many known races and important plots ready there.
It is all wasted when they never write about it: Charr, Asura, Sylvari...

The thing is, unless you are doing stories in the middle of Kryta, we aren't going to really see a ton. Anet has  leaned toward "We aren't going to have 3 different storylines affecting the world in the same spot." so yeah, we may not see as much about what the Rata Sum or Black Citadel populations are doing, they are going forward.

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On 8/25/2024 at 1:11 PM, wolfof.1842 said:

Sylvari discover Malyck tree

That was the plan for Heart of Thons but it was scraped unfortunately, maybe we'll get lucky someday.

As for the stories I think Anet is having an identity crisis, they mentioned after Soo Won no more world ending plot lines, and what have we gotten?

The Kryptis are invading Tyria!!!

Now the Destroyers are back, they gonna destroy Tyria!!!

Which I think it's a shame specially since Jarthir Wilds would really lend itself to the player finding this community and deal with their local problems (which wouldn't necessarily be the return of the Destroyers) cut off the Tyrian Alliance and forget the Astral Ward, the Lowland Kodan characters are more than enough to carry a story that would deal with their livelihood and local problems, it could even be just someone trying to rebuild the White Mantle and scrape together what they can from the bloodstone remnants there, they were honestly most of the way there, just look how cool the Bog Queen is, but nope, we have to bring in everyone and the ones we don't bring we mention for the member berries.

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4 hours ago, wolfof.1842 said:

then we just leave main playable races hang there without main story? I think many players are interested about them, see Icebrood Civil War and Charr.

Stuff happens... random wizards reveal on flying islands teleporting around, fight creatures that just show up one day? 

Tyria is big, has many known races and important plots ready there.
It is all wasted when they never write about it: Charr, Asura, Sylvari...

And many people are interested in getting closure on the mursaat-titan conflict, which, again, is the oldest story arc of GW1 and is an important part of the human and charr story in Tyria.

Which is something I think you're missing here - while it's probably exaggerating to say that everything is connected, a lot of things are. This is human and charr story, whoever the locals might happen to be. You seem to be so concerned about the ghosts of Ascalon arc, but if it wasn't for the titans, the Searing, and therefore the Foefire, would never have happened. So it's all part of the same thing. And by the time it's over, there may be other threads brought in.

While you're complaining about "not involving the playable races enough", I've been enjoying investigating more of the past activities of the White Mantle, who have been the story arc for the humans of Kryta since 2005. I'm anticipating the charr having even more of a conniption over their former gods returning, possibly even getting their noses rubbed into the fact that the whole thing was manipulated by a fallen human god. Speaking of which, the titans have in the past been the puppets for rogue human-worshipped gods, and either a rogue god such as Menzies or some other rival of the gods is likely the explanation for why the titans are back around now, possibly tying it into the greater story of the humans, their gods, and how they came to be on Tyria in the first place. I'm looking forward to investigating the ruins of the mursaat, the species that murdered and tried the enslave the humans of Kryta and learning more of their history, their motives, their powers and possibly why Glint believed that their defeat was necessary to avoid human extinction. I've noted with interest as Malice expresses remorse for the charr destruction of the human nation of Ascalon, something that until now the charr have been portrayed as regarding as an entirely justified massacre of the human enemy even if they were manipulated into it by the titans.

But sure, I guess the story has nothing to do with the playable races. Who plays humans or charr anyway? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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21 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think it kinda is about humans and charr - we're essentially getting further development of the White Mantle, mursaat, and titans that are fairly intimately tied into the human and charr story. The bearkin just happen to be the local inhabitants. It might also turn out that there's a reason Caithe is one of the main NPCs for this expansion. The story for the expansion still hasn't fully played out yet - in fact, it felt fairly anticlimactic compared to SotO.

It's also worth noting that the bearkin also seem to have debunked one of the theories about where the norn came from. That's progress in the form of pruning one theory without actually confirming the competing theory, but it's still progress.

I say this expansion is currently very important to the Human and Charr side of the lore since it explores the Titans which has a old history with the two races. 

My guess currently is that the Titan storyline maybe a more multiple expansion storyline so they can give us the other Titan types for each expansion but this expansion is mostly a setup to provide us reason why the Titans are back and who is maybe the antagonist for this Titan Arc. 

We may get the other Titan types if this is true with the return of the Fire Titans for the more Charr focused expansion into the Charr homeland due to the trial of Khan-Ur and the return of the Ice Titans for the Norn Expansion that focus on the Norn finally pushing North to reclaim their homeland.

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1 minute ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I say this expansion is currently very important to the Human and Charr side of the lore since it explores the Titans which has a old history with the two races. 

My guess currently is that the Titan storyline maybe a more multiple expansion storyline so they can give us the other Titan types for each expansion but this expansion is mostly a setup to provide us reason why the Titans are back and who is maybe the antagonist for this Titan Arc. 

We may get the other Titan types if this is true with the return of the Fire Titans for the more Charr focused expansion into the Charr homeland due to the trial of Khan-Ur and the return of the Ice Titans for the Norn Expansion that focus on the Norn finally pushing North to reclaim their homeland.

I'm sceptical that they're planning to set up an extended series of titan expansions, at least not in a row. I think that's part of the new plan for the narrative - not sticking to any one thing for an extended period, like how almost everything we did from release to EoD was related to the dragons, even though we didn't immediately know that LS1 was just the prologue to dragon #2. I suspect that we'll either resolve it, or they'll aim for a satisfying mini-resolution where threads might be picked back up later.

It is interesting to note that we have a new type of titan, in addition to seeing something of how they form their bodies from the surrounding environment. So they're not necessarily restricted to just fire, ice, and Torment titans.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

And many people are interested in getting closure on the mursaat-titan conflict, which, again, is the oldest story arc of GW1 and is an important part of the human and charr story in Tyria.

Which is something I think you're missing here - while it's probably exaggerating to say that everything is connected, a lot of things are. This is human and charr story, whoever the locals might happen to be. You seem to be so concerned about the ghosts of Ascalon arc, but if it wasn't for the titans, the Searing, and therefore the Foefire, would never have happened. So it's all part of the same thing. And by the time it's over, there may be other threads brought in.

While you're complaining about "not involving the playable races enough", I've been enjoying investigating more of the past activities of the White Mantle, who have been the story arc for the humans of Kryta since 2005. I'm anticipating the charr having even more of a conniption over their former gods returning, possibly even getting their noses rubbed into the fact that the whole thing was manipulated by a fallen human god. Speaking of which, the titans have in the past been the puppets for rogue human-worshipped gods, and either a rogue god such as Menzies or some other rival of the gods is likely the explanation for why the titans are back around now, possibly tying it into the greater story of the humans, their gods, and how they came to be on Tyria in the first place. I'm looking forward to investigating the ruins of the mursaat, the species that murdered and tried the enslave the humans of Kryta and learning more of their history, their motives, their powers and possibly why Glint believed that their defeat was necessary to avoid human extinction. I've noted with interest as Malice expresses remorse for the charr destruction of the human nation of Ascalon, something that until now the charr have been portrayed as regarding as an entirely justified massacre of the human enemy even if they were manipulated into it by the titans.

But sure, I guess the story has nothing to do with the playable races. Who plays humans or charr anyway? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It has something to do with the races but it's not the main story active right now in GW2.
Titans were gone already, only little side note in Charr tutorial:

"With engines of destruction, we have killed our gods."

Done, over, no need to revive White Mantle, Mursaat, Caudecus, Lazarus again and again... like Season 3 did already. 

Now look at GW2 main story:

  • Charr vs. ghosts / Kralkatorrik
  • Humans vs. centaurs / Zhaitan?

Ascalonian ghosts are left for Charr. Centaurs are left for humans.

But no time to do solve this because... Titans are back! suddenly... really important right now! just like Kryptis before in SotO. 

edit: You even say: "their former gods returning".
Why revive forgotten, dead enemies before dealing with main active conflict right in Ascalon/Kryta:
No care for population of Kryta run over by centaurs? No care for dying Charr soldiers on battlefields of Ascalon?

Edited by wolfof.1842
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1 hour ago, wolfof.1842 said:

Why revive forgotten, dead enemies before dealing with main active conflict right in Ascalon/Kryta:

The Centaur War isn't the main active conflict in Kryta, in fact, its not even an active conflict in Kryta.

Back in core we pushed the Centaurs back to their own lands through the Queensdale, Kessex Hills, Gendarran Fields, and Harathi Hitherlands, map events, and then killed Ulgoth the Mighty, the centaur who was the one that forced the tribes together to attack Kryta in the first place. The Centaur army was crushed, pushed out of Kryta, and the leader/main instigator of the conflict was killed. The larger war is over.

We also know that IBS was going to have Centaur peace mini-arc, and that Anet almost did it in a DRM also. So even they think the Centaur war is over.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'm sceptical that they're planning to set up an extended series of titan expansions, at least not in a row. I think that's part of the new plan for the narrative - not sticking to any one thing for an extended period, like how almost everything we did from release to EoD was related to the dragons, even though we didn't immediately know that LS1 was just the prologue to dragon #2. I suspect that we'll either resolve it, or they'll aim for a satisfying mini-resolution where threads might be picked back up later.

It is interesting to note that we have a new type of titan, in addition to seeing something of how they form their bodies from the surrounding environment. So they're not necessarily restricted to just fire, ice, and Torment titans.

Yeah, it seems very unlikely any one threat will last more than an expansion. If anything they will be themed at a higher level, like one could say the SoTO/JW/3rd mini xpack set is the "Astral Ward" arc or a "threats from the mists" arc, or something like that. Many reoccurring characters/plot threads, but the enemy in each one is different.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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14 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Back in core we pushed the Centaurs back to their own lands through the Queensdale, Kessex Hills, Gendarran Fields, and Harathi Hitherlands, map events, and then killed Ulgoth the Mighty, the centaur who was the one that forced the tribes together to attack Kryta in the first place. The Centaur army was crushed, pushed out of Kryta, and the leader/main instigator of the conflict was killed. The larger war is over.

We also know that IBS was going to have Centaur peace mini-arc, and that Anet almost did it in a DRM also. So even they think the Centaur war is over.

Who of Anet ever said Centaur war is over? They had centaurs in the trailer and wanted continue the story but Icebrood Saga was cut short in middle to work on End of Dragons. So they needed finish for all Dragons (Jormag + Primordus) in DRMs quickly instead.

GW2 wiki also says: "In days gone by, the centaurs were spread across Tyria, but with the unification of the tribes they are now mainly found in Kryta with suggestions that they stage their attacks from the Woodland Cascades. "

Did we explore Woodland Cascades yet? Did the main story have chapter about end of centaur war?

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6 hours ago, wolfof.1842 said:

maybe a matter of different words, because you also agree Ascalon ghosts are interesting story to tell.

So we could have for example:

  • Mini expansion 1: Ghosts of Ascalon, Charr
  • Mini expansion 2: Depths of Tyria, Asura/dwarfs
  • ...

United groups help a member/region/country if they need help, even look at real life events like that.
United Tyria can help the Charr with Ascalon, to secure the region for the population of Tyria

You join forces, help deal with a conflict, move on and solve next conflict of another group. 

Nothing really speak against a story like that in united Tyria I think?

I partially agree with you. However, I think the angle matters in order to keep the story engaging (at least for me and people who are like-minded, as I am not trying to set up a generally accepted upon status quo in wich stories should be enjoyed. So take my take with a grain of salt.)

My main problem is, that when focussing too heavy on the race side, natural character dynamics could start to suffer really fast, as the characters stop being the focus of the story, but the race/group/order/whatever. Wich is especially taken me out of suspension of disbelief, when we have a world with many established races and a REALLY diverse cast (by the way, I LOVE how Anet starts to move away from a core group of characters and swaps some of the many, many characers we met over the story in, like they did with Malice here).

Let's say, the story starts to tackle the Ascalon Ghosts thing. Sure, you could just make it about "Charr claiming the land for good", with some roadblocks in the way. But when going in deeper, there is SO much potential in this. The moral implications of genociding the semi-conciouss ghosts from their homeland (AGAIN). Human interests towards the land. There also will be at least one Asura, who wants to study this phenomenon of what the foefire was exatly and how it created this fantasy version of a nuclear fallout that binds souls for eternity.

Thats why I love the meetings in the Janthir story so much. There are characters, discussing about things that impact every individual on a global scale. We got Zojjas diary on Soto, describing the darker sides of asuran society, wich fleshed her out as a character, and not just a representative of a race. And thats what a stoty (imho) needs more of. Stuff happening because of characters, not stuff being tailor made to include a race-centric story. Wich certainly does overlap sometimes. But I think our main disagreement here is the extent as to wich lengths this should go.

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25 minutes ago, wolfof.1842 said:

Who of Anet ever said Centaur war is over?

Anet, back during IBS they said they had originally planned for a "Centaur peace" story after Drizzlewood. After the back half of IBS got cut, they considered doing a Centaur Peace focused DRM, but cut that also because they felt the story was too big for a DRM. That_Shaman even datamined a Centaur representative for champions, like the ther factions got.

With the Centaurs pushed out of Kryta, Ulgoth the Mighty dead, and the massive devastation the Centaurs faced from Primdorus's Destoryers in IBS, they were going to make peace with humans in a two parter like Bjora/Drizzlewood got.

The orignal plan for IBS was

  • Two parter(like Bjora/Drizzlewood) in the Centaur homeland dealing with Primordus' awakening, Jormag allying with the Asura/betraying everyone, Braham getting his weird powers(everything we saw in the first two Champions releases)
  • A second "Vision of the Past" dealing with Braham's trip into the volcano to become Primordus' champion(wildfire instance in Champions)
  • A final two parter around Anvil Rock dealing with our allied forcing battling the dragons, and getting Jormag/Primordus to desotry each other(latter two champions releaseS
25 minutes ago, wolfof.1842 said:

Did we explore Woodland Cascades yet?

We went to part of it in Drizzlewood.

25 minutes ago, wolfof.1842 said:

Did the main story have chapter about end of centaur war?

Doesn't need to. Many stories in GW2 don't take place in the main story.

  • Kryta wiping out the last of the bandit leaders following the collapse of the White Mantle.
  • The forces of Tyria rallying to stop Joko's portal invasions.
  • The Priory and Consortium doing research into ley line anomalies.
  • Gorrik and Taimi's investigations into the Dragon cycle

Are all stories that weren't in the main story, but still happened.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

We went to part of it in Drizzlewood.

to see just the Charr Civil war, the only story we saw there.

We explored nothing of Woodland Cascades, we did not get closure of Centaur war because it was cut out of IBS like you explained 

It is really perfect for a mini expansion, humans/allies finally defeat origin of centaur attacks and bring peace to population of Kryta.
You don't finish major enemy of a playable race off-screen.

It's the main plot of core GW2 and deserves chapters and a real end in the main story.

But I admit human/centaur is probably least exciting story of all races, compared to Charr/Ascalon, Asura/depths or even Sylvari/Malyck.
Lot of human focus in Season 3, PoF, EoD too, so maybe deal with other races first for variety... and Norn don't look like they have much story left after Jormag anyway?

Edited by wolfof.1842
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3 hours ago, wolfof.1842 said:

Who of Anet ever said Centaur war is over? They had centaurs in the trailer and wanted continue the story but Icebrood Saga was cut short in middle to work on End of Dragons. So they needed finish for all Dragons (Jormag + Primordus) in DRMs quickly instead.

GW2 wiki also says: "In days gone by, the centaurs were spread across Tyria, but with the unification of the tribes they are now mainly found in Kryta with suggestions that they stage their attacks from the Woodland Cascades. "

Did we explore Woodland Cascades yet? Did the main story have chapter about end of centaur war?

The driving individuals of the centaur war are dead. Caudecus sabotaging the Seraph and fueling Centaur hate, and the war chief Ugolth who was forcing the other tribes to partake in the war.

The war may not "Be over" officially, but it is very much a far cry from what it was at the start of the personal story.

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