Necromancer Spear, My Takeaways and Suggestions

[FalsePromises.6398]

While using necromancer spear I was getting mixed signals: some clashing designs and ultimately something missing. After talking with others, I wanted to make a forum post just to put my thoughts and feedback out there and hopefully start some conversation, because I worry spear will fall into a "it deals damage, we're done" rut and be left in a mediocre state when it could be doing MUCH more for the class, even without over-tuning what reaper and harbinger have or touching damage coefficients. I'm putting the key parts in bold so it can be read with a glance for tl;dr, but I encourage reading the whole thing. 

I think first and foremost is the range. The key parts of the kit feel cramped, and Perforate is the worst offender: its visuals shoot all the way out to 600 range, but it can only strike half that distance, and with such short range it often fails to cleave at all. I think tuning up the range to 450 or 600 would do the skill much more justice, even if it comes at the cost of a narrower cone attack. Perforate doesn't need as much spread if it's a better linear attack. Addle also needs extra range, maybe 180 or 240, so it can embrace a better "poke and pin" function. Necromancer's spear isn't like warrior's daggers where you have two leaps and want to be in their face all the time. Spear in general really ought to embrace some more "poking" instead of falling into an awkward pure melee role where its important ranged channel attack is at most disadvantage. If anyone's not aware, ranged channels often fail against enemies that move inside, through, or around your hitbox, which happens a lot in melee. 

After that, Isolate should be the skill that generates soul shards and recharges Perforate, not Distress. It would streamline skill sequences and allow you to stay at "poking" range instead of needing to teleport right in an enemy's face with a channeled cone attack prone to cancelling itself or missing entirely against certain movements. It would also improve usability: in a damage-optimizing sequence, you would go from (Isolate --> Perforate --> [another skill to ensure Perforate goes on cooldown before Distress] --> Distress --> Perforate), down to a much cleaner sequence of (Perforate --> Isolate --> Perforate), a much cleaner skill sequence. The teleport can be saved entirely as an optional gap closer then, like Death Shroud's Dark Path and Dark Pursuit. 

My last suggestion is one that gets a little inspiration from greatsword, that spear's autoattack chain should partially recharge Perforate. Something small like 33% recharge of Perforate on the third skill of the autoattack chain would work perfectly, so that two auto chains plus one other spear skill would give you full shards plus enough recharge progress for a clean loop into Perforate. Encouraging sustained damage mechanics on spear would fill some gaps in power scourge in PvE, plus it would give spear that consistent strength like greatsword that I think more weapons in the necromancer arsenal ought to have, since they tend to pump skills and then sit on longer cooldowns (if they don't swap off). A change like this shouldn't even affect reaper and harbinger's damage in PvE since they spend more time in shroud and avoid extended periods of a single weapon. 

Tl;dr of the tl;dr, spear should aim for more of a poking, mid-close range style instead of a clashing melee style with a ranged channel attack, by increasing the range of Perforate and Addle and moving soul shards/Perforate recharge off of Distress to Isolate. Spear can then be enhanced akin to greatsword by adding partial Perforate recharge on third auto chain strikes, improving its sustained damage for specs or styles that don't rely on shroud kits as much. 

[calva.2914]

I’ve been play a lot more power harb recently with sword/sword. It just feels so fluid, it feels good. 
 

iv been trying to get used to spear but idk, it’s just missing something. It feels kinda clunky to use, the auto attack range is sooo short. It also really doesn’t do much damage, it feels pretty bad to do. 
 

- auto attacks visually look longer than the range it is. This is the same for skill 3. 
 

- the teleport skill feels…ok. I wish when you activated the second part of the skill to teleport it was either a stun break or it gave you a bit of stability.

 

- the 5 skill acts kinda weird. I’ve used 4, 5, 4 combo and it works great. Sometimes though when I use 5 while next to the enemy and they move a little bit away the animation of the skill still hits them but the damage numbers don’t pop up.

And when I switch back to sword/sword everything feels awesome again. 
 

I think a lot of the issues stem from having a shorter range than the animations appear to be. 

[Isopod.4156]

My small brain struggles with it

[misterman.1530]

Skill #1 - every strike should cause Chill

Skill #2 - Perforate should generate Life Force as well

Skill #3 - fine, I guess

Skill #4 - Range should increase. The Teleport should include popping a Poison Cloud at the location

Skill #5 - Range should increase

[misterman.1530]

10 minutes ago, misterman.1530 said:

Skill #1 - every strike should cause Chill

Skill #2 - Perforate should generate Life Force as well

Skill #3 - fine, I guess

Skill #4 - Range should increase. The Teleport should include popping a Poison Cloud at the location

Skill #5 - Range should increase

Oh. I knew it. I "confused" someone with my post. If they disagree, they should say why. Not hide behind an emoji.

[calva.2914]

20 minutes ago, misterman.1530 said:

Skill #1 - every strike should cause Chill

Skill #2 - Perforate should generate Life Force as well

Skill #3 - fine, I guess

Skill #4 - Range should increase. The Teleport should include popping a Poison Cloud at the location

Skill #5 - Range should increase

1: chill on every hit would be overpowered.

2: I never had life force issues on the spear really. I don’t think this is needed. 

3: this is actually one of the skills that need some sort of change. 

4: You want skill 4 to be more than 1200….lol. The weapon has range issues but this skill is not one of them. 
 

5: the skill could actually use a little more range. 

[FalsePromises.6398]

5 hours ago, calva.2914 said:

I think a lot of the issues stem from having a shorter range than the animations appear to be. 

Definitely one of the more glaring issues, I agree. I took some screenshots when I was testing Perforate, and the difference between the actual range vs the visual effects was comical. I did this by selecting an ambient creature and nudging myself away until perforate was JUST out of range, and then using it. At 300 range, my spear was visible moving PAST my target, but not striking it. The visual effects went out TWICE as far as the actual skill's range. I tested it again by moving myself to 600 range and... it looked like the perfect distance for its visual effects. 

Addle was the same: it seemed to actually look more like a 240 range skill. The actual spear itself reached to 180 range, and the visual effects of the glowing strike reached to 240 range. 

Having these skills actually function at this range would do LEAGUES for spear being a super flexible and applicable weapon. Like I said in my original post, spear isn't warrior daggers where you have 2 leaps and every reason in the world to cling to your enemy's body like a flea. Longer range on spear would give necromancer an incredibly useful mid-close range weapon without the windups or slowness of greatsword. 

It feels like the range decreases on spear were artificial, like someone in the development team wanted to pump the brakes on it and curb necromancer expectations for the weapon, because the visuals are definitely suited for longer ranges but the skills are stuck with such inflexible ranges for a necromancer weapon. Even greatsword has skills that have extra range to visually match their animations, with Gravedigger at 180 radius and Dark Spiral at 240 range. Maybe they preemptively nerfed it to make it not too good in PvP? 

[FalsePromises.6398]

2 hours ago, misterman.1530 said:

Oh. I knew it. I "confused" someone with my post. If they disagree, they should say why. Not hide behind an emoji.

Ask and ye shall receive. Even as someone wanting buffs to necro spear, I disagree with a lot of those points. 

1. chill on every strike is comically overpowered. Not even greatsword, the weapon for the spec thematically tied to chill, does chill on every auto strike. Chill on even just the third strike is a little generous in my opinion, since spear has no real reason to have that. 

2. I don't have LF issues with spear and don't see a need for this. Make sure you're using your shroud effectively, not taking absurd amounts of damage in shroud, using your other LF generating skills on spear, and cycling weapons so you can effectively rotate LF generating skills. Or maybe just run chilling grasp. 

3. Addle is not fine, it's terribly short range and glaringly visually inconsistent with its animation. It needs a range increase so it can better work alongside every other skill in the set having 240 range or more in practical application. 

4. 1200 range on Isolate is fine: if you need 1500 range on a teleport, that probably means you're casting it to engage enemies from unreasonable distances beyond their range too, and in that case you can just run the extra 300 range instead. I also don't see a realistic need for extra poison, it's a power weapon after all. If anything, the more glaring issue is that Distress's soul shards and Perforate reset should be moved to Isolate for better skill sequencing, since Distress's Perforate reset fails if casted during Perforate, including if it's casted during Perforate's aftercast, which starts necessitating skill canceling tomfoolery. 

5. I can see where you're coming from, I lowkey agree, but now that Extirpate has better benefits on the first target struck and per hit, I don't see it as near as much of a pressing issue as Perforate or Addle or Distress. Plus, it needs to be counterbalanced so it's not oppressive in competitive with its new Extirpation debuff. Same reason harbinger shroud 5 is 240 radius. 

[Asum.4960]

40 minutes ago, FalsePromises.6398 said:

Definitely one of the more glaring issues, I agree. I took some screenshots when I was testing Perforate, and the difference between the actual range vs the visual effects was comical. I did this by selecting an ambient creature and nudging myself away until perforate was JUST out of range, and then using it. At 300 range, my spear was visible moving PAST my target, but not striking it. The visual effects went out TWICE as far as the actual skill's range. I tested it again by moving myself to 600 range and... it looked like the perfect distance for its visual effects. 

Addle was the same: it seemed to actually look more like a 240 range skill. The actual spear itself reached to 180 range, and the visual effects of the glowing strike reached to 240 range. 

Having these skills actually function at this range would do LEAGUES for spear being a super flexible and applicable weapon. Like I said in my original post, spear isn't warrior daggers where you have 2 leaps and every reason in the world to cling to your enemy's body like a flea. Longer range on spear would give necromancer an incredibly useful mid-close range weapon without the windups or slowness of greatsword. 

It feels like the range decreases on spear were artificial, like someone in the development team wanted to pump the brakes on it and curb necromancer expectations for the weapon, because the visuals are definitely suited for longer ranges but the skills are stuck with such inflexible ranges for a necromancer weapon. Even greatsword has skills that have extra range to visually match their animations, with Gravedigger at 180 radius and Dark Spiral at 240 range. Maybe they preemptively nerfed it to make it not too good in PvP? 

Anet keeps doing that to Necro, so I wouldn't be surprised if those were the original ranges. Much like Harbinger launching into Beta with Necro finally having access to at least some Fractal skips and such as most other classes can do now, with a 900 range Voracious Arc, just for it to be stripped away before launch, getting both Devouring Cut and Voracious Arc cut down to a too short 600 and then instead bloated with clunky, counter-synergistic to the spec's trait's mechanics. 

Spear might have just gotten the cut down from being actually fun and useful a step earlier, but after animations were already done.

[FalsePromises.6398]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

Anet keeps doing that to Necro, so I wouldn't be surprised if those were the original ranges. Much like Harbinger launching into Beta with Necro finally having access to at least some Fractal skips and such as most other classes can do now, with a 900 range Voracious Arc, just for it to be stripped away before launch, getting both Devouring Cut and Voracious Arc cut down to a too short 600 and then instead bloated with clunky, counter-synergistic to the spec's trait's mechanics. 

Spear might have just gotten the cut down from being actually fun and useful a step earlier, but after animations were already done.

I'm pretty sure I remember thieves complaining that Voracious Arc was just their Vault but longer range and that it should be nerfed, and that's what I attribute the nerf to. Something deep in my gut feels like vindictive thief mains had a hand in designing harbinger, since the whole spec feels like "Oh, you want damage? Get rid of your 'second health bar' and your high base health and be squishy like me". The vital flaw is they didn't give harbinger the raw recovery capabilities or defenses of squishy classes, opting instead for passive regen. I do agree that harbinger is a total mess under the hood, rife with clashing mechanics that could be remedied if the class wasn't in a dormant balance discussion state of "it deals damage, we're done", a state I'm hoping spear won't fall into before its issues are fixed and its style corrected to what it should be. 

I'll be able to stomach spear long term if they at least move the Perforate reset to Isolate, but I really hope they increase Perforate and Addle range so they're more usable in ways you'd really want to use them. Addle in particular is irking me because every other skill in the spear kit is 240 range or more, which leaves Addle very awkward to use when you're using the rest of your kit in sequence. 

Edited August 27 by FalsePromises.6398

[misterman.1530]

4 hours ago, FalsePromises.6398 said:

Ask and ye shall receive. Even as someone wanting buffs to necro spear, I disagree with a lot of those points. 

1. chill on every strike is comically overpowered. Not even greatsword, the weapon for the spec thematically tied to chill, does chill on every auto strike. Chill on even just the third strike is a little generous in my opinion, since spear has no real reason to have that. 

2. I don't have LF issues with spear and don't see a need for this. Make sure you're using your shroud effectively, not taking absurd amounts of damage in shroud, using your other LF generating skills on spear, and cycling weapons so you can effectively rotate LF generating skills. Or maybe just run chilling grasp. 

3. Addle is not fine, it's terribly short range and glaringly visually inconsistent with its animation. It needs a range increase so it can better work alongside every other skill in the set having 240 range or more in practical application. 

4. 1200 range on Isolate is fine: if you need 1500 range on a teleport, that probably means you're casting it to engage enemies from unreasonable distances beyond their range too, and in that case you can just run the extra 300 range instead. I also don't see a realistic need for extra poison, it's a power weapon after all. If anything, the more glaring issue is that Distress's soul shards and Perforate reset should be moved to Isolate for better skill sequencing, since Distress's Perforate reset fails if casted during Perforate, including if it's casted during Perforate's aftercast, which starts necessitating skill canceling tomfoolery. 

5. I can see where you're coming from, I lowkey agree, but now that Extirpate has better benefits on the first target struck and per hit, I don't see it as near as much of a pressing issue as Perforate or Addle or Distress. Plus, it needs to be counterbalanced so it's not oppressive in competitive with its new Extirpation debuff. Same reason harbinger shroud 5 is 240 radius. 

I only suggested Chill as a counter to the Mesmer's ridiculous Might, Might, Weakness. Perhaps it should be other condis. For a class that is supposed to put conditions on enemies, the spear is sorely lacking. As for life force, I don't have an issue either, but I figured Perforate should provide something useful. I know it's supposed to provide healing, but am not seeing much.

As for Addle, yeah. Forgot it was only 130 range. You're correct. It is too short.

As for range, I was thinking about a counter to other classes ports. But 1200 should be fine. Again, was comparing it to the abilities on Mesmer spear and thought it needed something.

[FalsePromises.6398]

1 hour ago, misterman.1530 said:

I only suggested Chill as a counter to the Mesmer's ridiculous Might, Might, Weakness. Perhaps it should be other condis. For a class that is supposed to put conditions on enemies, the spear is sorely lacking. As for life force, I don't have an issue either, but I figured Perforate should provide something useful. I know it's supposed to provide healing, but am not seeing much.

As for Addle, yeah. Forgot it was only 130 range. You're correct. It is too short.

As for range, I was thinking about a counter to other classes ports. But 1200 should be fine. Again, was comparing it to the abilities on Mesmer spear and thought it needed something.

Comparing weapons between classes is a terrible idea. Classes all have different dispersions of strength, capabilities, and complexity between their different parts: weapons, traits, slot skills, and class mechanics. Every class is balanced wildly differently, each one a different apples to oranges conundrum. Some classes will always look wildly unfair compared to another class. 

That said... I think the fact you can inflict almost permanent chill with necro spear autos already (easily permanent chill when on reaper with Cold Shoulder and Chilling Nova) means you don't need more. I think permanent chill is already stronger than 2 stacks of might for 5 seconds and 2 seconds of weakness. Chill is a really oppressive condition. 

Also Perforate does provide something useful: 5160 heal if you land all hits with soul shards, and that's before any other effects like Relic of Atrocity, Relic of Zakiros, or Soul Eater. That's pretty big for a skill that's also meant to be strong burst damage and cleave. That's bigger than necromancer's own siphoning specialty weapon, dagger's 2 skill, Life Siphon (4860 heal with bleeding modifier). The real issue is that the super short 300 range screws it up: if you really need the healing, you'll probably move too close trying to land it and wind up eating damage you shouldn't have. 5k health gained looks like 1k health gained if you take 4k damage trying to make sure the hits land.

On to Isolate range increase, if Isolate became 1500 range, I think it'd be the longest range teleport in the game without getting into portal skills. I'm pretty sure all non-portal teleports and shadowsteps cap out at 1200 range. 

[zeyeti.8347]

The aa should have the range option but with some inconvenience , like no mark on 2nd hit.

For the rest as suspected the weapon is competing with greatsword , and especially gravedigger , who reset on aa chain and when hit under 50% , way better than having a reload on skill 2 on a 18 sec cd.

Good thing about it is this insane healing from perforate , but in term of damage and range i think i will soon go back to 2x sword/Gs.

2x sword heals anyway , not as much but more constantly.

Not a bad weapon , i would say it's mid , but definitly need some buffs , but i really don't know how to buff it.

[KrHome.1920]

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

The aa should have the range option but with some inconvenience , like no mark on 2nd hit.

For the rest as suspected the weapon is competing with greatsword , and especially gravedigger , who reset on aa chain and when hit under 50% , way better than having a reload on skill 2 on a 18 sec cd.

Good thing about it is this insane healing from perforate , but in term of damage and range i think i will soon go back to 2x sword/Gs.

It doesn't compete with greatsword mechanically. It is pretty much the opposite. Stating that is basically saying "both do damage so they are competing with each other".

The problem with this PvE perspective is always, that damage is the only factor that counts. A new weapon is bad, when it deals less weapon than an older weapon.

For the competitive modes or players that look for different mechanics spear is competely new in the necro toolkit. In fact reaper has so much mobility and burst now, that it can chase down willbenders and thieves. Yesterday I duelled a cele catalyst that didn't lose a 1v1 for days cause no one could burst through all that sustain. I beat him 3 out of 3 times, even after he learned how the spear burst combo looked like. The key skill to secure the hits was suffer! (instant cast) right when you teleport and land on the target. What a coincidence that anet nerfed suffer! for PvP in the recent patch.

On greatsword I woulnd't have won a single one of these duels. I doubt I would even have landed a hit with the GS.

Edited August 28 by KrHome.1920

[zeyeti.8347]

2 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

It doesn't compete with greatsword mechanically. It is pretty much the opposite. Stating that is basically saying "both do damage so they are competing with each other".

The problem with this PvE perspective is always, that damage is the only factor that counts. A new weapon is bad, when it deals less weapon than an older weapon.

For the competitive modes or players that look for different mechanics spear is competely new in the necro toolkit. In fact reaper has so much mobility and burst now, that it can chase down willbenders and thieves. Yesterday I duelled a cele catalyst that didn't lose a 1v1 for days cause no one could burst through all that sustain. I beat him 3 out of 3 times, even after he learned how the spear burst combo looked like. The key skill to secure the hits was suffer! (instant cast) right when you teleport and land on the target. What a coincidence that anet nerfed suffer! for PvP in the recent patch.

On greatsword I woulnd't have won a single one of these duels. I doubt I would even have landed a hit with the GS.

Pve is divided between open world and instanced content , spear definitively has a place in open world as a high sustain weapon dealin decent damage , ofc you don't care about that in endgame cause you are dedicated to a role , if you dps you dps , if be playing dps you bring boons to the table etc , it's better , if not , you ahve 2 or 4 people deicated to cover the damage increase , utility and healing of all the squad.

Spear definitively has a place in open world as a somewhat sustain weapon , but it compete also with 2x sword , who does less damage , but has more life leech and is range with better mobility skills , so i would say spear is between sword and GS in term of design but doesn't compare to each other in term of efficiency in peculira roles , better all round weapon but as long as you have a weapon swictch , for me, having big damahe on melee for burst phase , and long range sustain weapon is better than melee sustain weapon.

I won't talk about pvp nor wvw , i avoid those two modes by all cost , so doesn't know the balance around them , i only sometimes play wvw for a GoB , that's all.

[Uete.3805]

5 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

The aa should have the range option but with some inconvenience , like no mark on 2nd hit.

Since this idea has come up, I don't know if it'd be too oppressive in pvp, but having a ranged aa could do wonders to keep pressuring any enemies trying to escape.

Maybe #2 and #3 getting increased ranges solves the problem, but I keep being unable to poke some people in pvp with the spear. #2 is great on downed players, mind you, but anyone with a bit of sense backs aways asap.

An option would be to have a 600-900 range aa with vuln that does less damage than the aa chain currently does. That way I could see it as an alternative to sw/sw in PVE too since I've grown fond of the flexibility its range gives it.

[FalsePromises.6398]

6 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Pve is divided between open world and instanced content , spear definitively has a place in open world as a high sustain weapon dealin decent damage , ofc you don't care about that in endgame cause you are dedicated to a role , if you dps you dps , if be playing dps you bring boons to the table etc , it's better , if not , you ahve 2 or 4 people deicated to cover the damage increase , utility and healing of all the squad.

Spear definitively has a place in open world as a somewhat sustain weapon , but it compete also with 2x sword , who does less damage , but has more life leech and is range with better mobility skills , so i would say spear is between sword and GS in term of design but doesn't compare to each other in term of efficiency in peculira roles , better all round weapon but as long as you have a weapon swictch , for me, having big damahe on melee for burst phase , and long range sustain weapon is better than melee sustain weapon.

I won't talk about pvp nor wvw , i avoid those two modes by all cost , so doesn't know the balance around them , i only sometimes play wvw for a GoB , that's all.

Spear is actually in a pretty good spot, it's just facing terrible restrictions on the ranges of its more powerful or vital skills. Spear is currently the optimal damage weapon alongside greatsword for power harbinger, which I believe is because harbinger has other skills it can cast during the forced delay between perforates when using Isolate --> Perforate --> Distress --> Perforate (as mentioned in the original post, this combo needs to either cancel the previous Perforate's aftercast or use another skill while casting Distress to make sure the reset works properly). 

Also, I did the math with someone above, and spear is actually a pretty dang good sustain weapon, since its soul shards on Perforate outheal dagger's Life Siphon, and it can also reset Perforate's cooldown AND regenerate full soul shards in the process. 5160 heal on Perforate with full soul shards vs 4860 heal on Life Siphon with bleeding modifier. Sword might have more consistent healing across all skills but dare I say it's counterbalanced by being smaller healing among more skills AND needing health to cast certain skills anyway. Spear is just limited by Perforate's range, which forces necromancers to get unreasonably close and often take more damage trying to get their healing. 

Spear's role in necromancer is a close range bursty weapon that gives necromancer a lot of immediate danger that its previous weapons were missing. Sword's damage is evenly dispersed, doesn't have huge burst. Greatsword is too weighty and slow for a lot of that immediate pressure or followup. Staff might work in PvE as a bursty power weapon but it burns out FAST and has no further use, and isn't a power weapon in competitive. Axe is axe (lol). Spear has a great unique identity with substantial performance, I just want to enhance its performance in ways that wouldn't even buff the current high end meta uses. Range increases would help it be more usable in open world, Isolate/Distress changes would help the weapon work more fluidly, and slight Perforate recharge on autoattacks would help it sustain damage in longer use, which is antithetical to how harbinger and reaper play since they hop in shroud during cooldowns, but throws a bone to power scourge, which has been nonexistent in serious PvE thus far. 

To reiterate on previous concerns though, no, spear is not competing with greatsword, it's working alongside it. If anything, spear is eclipsing a lot of subpar other power options that anet seems to design more for competitive mists anyway. I want spear to follow in greatsword's steps because it's the only good model so far for consistent power damage on a necromancer weapon, and a lack of consistent power damage is what keeps power builds on scourge in PvE under wraps (also the fact that shade skills have low power coefficients, but that's only part of the issue). 

[FalsePromises.6398]

6 hours ago, Uete.3805 said:

Since this idea has come up, I don't know if it'd be too oppressive in pvp, but having a ranged aa could do wonders to keep pressuring any enemies trying to escape.

Maybe #2 and #3 getting increased ranges solves the problem, but I keep being unable to poke some people in pvp with the spear. #2 is great on downed players, mind you, but anyone with a bit of sense backs aways asap.

An option would be to have a 600-900 range aa with vuln that does less damage than the aa chain currently does. That way I could see it as an alternative to sw/sw in PVE too since I've grown fond of the flexibility its range gives it.

I don't see it necessary to add a bimodal ranged attack on the autoattack. You're not really needing to land those autoattacks, and the kit is pretty well designed to gap close and stay at a little safe distance. What you need to land is your other weapon skills, which is why I bring up Perforate and Addle range increases, because they play like super up close skills when that's not what spear really wants. A ranged channel should not be 300 range, that's basically melee where ranged channels are notorious for failing to cast properly or fully. Then Addle is 130 range while the rest of the kit is 240 range, making it a serious oddball in practical use. Those two are the range issue, in my opinion. 

[Vile.4387]

Increase addle range to 240.

Increase Extirpate range to 300 and make it AOE, not just facing target (unless it already has it, I can't tell.)

Speed up the auto chains by 1/4 each

Give the teleport evade.

Those would be my changes.

If you wanna get spicy, give the 5 unblockable. For extra kitten killing.

[Apokriphos.7042]

I have thoroughly gone into why Extirpate is a resoundingly terrible skill in comparison to Nightfall, and how most non-necro mains somehow consider Extirpate the reason spear should be in all other ways a useless weapon. For the sake of avoiding this argument rehash, and Im going to address your points instead and avoid this one for the moment. 

Lets start with - How is Spear the "Optimal Damage Weapon" for Power Harbinger in WvW?

Spear is far from competitive as a burst weapon in WvW, and isn’t an optimal damage weapon for any necromancer spec in WvW, but especially not Harbinger, which also lacks shroud lifebar protection. The Isolate --> Perforate --> Distress combo you praise is extremely clunky, with multiple failure points (short range misses, dodges, blocks, or simply being avoided due to its slowness) that leave you exposed without a defense skill on the weapon, making it unreliable in any fast-paced competitive environment.

Moreover, Perforate’s 300 range and Addle’s 130 range severely limit spear’s effectiveness in WvW, which is why this is one of many criticisms in these forums. These short ranges force necromancers into dangerously close proximity to enemies, unlike Greatsword’s Grasping Darkness, which has a 900 range and offers much-needed control from a safe distance. Ignoring these points only make the argument sound uninformed. Spear's skill 2 (441 base damage, 1.2 multiplier) - 3 targets, is vastly outclassed by Greatsword’s skill 2 (734 base damage, 1.82 multiplier) hitting up to five targets.

Perforate’s healing, relying entirely on soul shards and a need to camp the extremely long-cooldown Spear to build them (gone after a single shroud rotation) is massively unreliable compared to dagger’s Life Siphon, which offers 4,860 healing & 828 bdmg (2.26 mult) plus a 1.2x bleed modifier at 600 range without any setup. Dagger provides dps, consistent healing and control options like a 4.5second immob base on skill 3, making it far more versatile in combat. Even the much-maligned Axe has Ghastly Claws, with 976 damage, a 2.664 multiplier, and a 900 range. Superior burst potential from a safer distance.

Spear’s short range and lower damage make it a joke in close-quarters combat, where necromancers are already vulnerable. It doesn’t complement Greatsword; it’s simply outclassed by it. The mechanics, including Isolate’s risky follow-up, don’t measure up to Greatsword’s significant utility and power in WvW.

In WvW, Spear is a melee power weapon for a class that already has several better options, leaving it without a niche. It’s hardly an expansion seller.

Edited August 28 by Apokriphos.7042

[Asum.4960]

15 minutes ago, Apokriphos.7042 said:

Spear's skill 2 (441 base damage, 1.2 multiplier) - 3 targets, is vastly outclassed by Greatsword’s skill 2 (734 base damage, 1.82 multiplier) hitting up to five targets.

Perforate’s healing, relying entirely on soul shards and a need to camp the extremely long-cooldown Spear to build them (gone after a single shroud rotation) is massively unreliable compared to dagger’s Life Siphon, which offers 4,860 healing & 828 bdmg (2.26 mult) plus a 1.2x bleed modifier at 600 range without any setup. Dagger provides dps, consistent healing and control options like a 4.5second immob base on skill 3, making it far more versatile in combat. Even the much-maligned Axe has Ghastly Claws, with 976 damage, a 2.664 multiplier, and a 900 range. Superior burst potential from a safer distance.

Just fyi, there is no such thing as "Base Damage" in GW2, so you can leave that out and just note the power coefficient. 

Wiki skill damage numbers simply are (Average Exotic Weapon Strength) * 1000 Base Power * (Skill coefficient) / (an assumed 2597 target's standard Raid Boss Armor).

So for example for WvW balance Gravedigger, we have a 1.82 coefficient and are using a Greatsword, which as Exotic in PvE and WvW has an average weapon strength of 1047,5; which results in (1047.5) * 1000 * (1.82) / (2597) = 734 Tooltip/Wiki Damage.

Life Siphon would be (952.5 average exotic dagger strength) * 1000 base power * (2.25 WvW Coefficient) / (2597 Armor) = 825 Damage. 

So the "Base Damage" you are referring to is derived from the power coefficient (and weapon type/strength), rather than something being multiplied.

 

[Codename T.2847]

On 8/27/2024 at 8:14 PM, misterman.1530 said:

Skill #1 - every strike should cause Chill

Skill #2 - Perforate should generate Life Force as well

Skill #3 - fine, I guess

Skill #4 - Range should increase. The Teleport should include popping a Poison Cloud at the location

Skill #5 - Range should increase

necro doesn't need more chill spam. I agree however that the radius of #5 could be a bit wider. 

[FalsePromises.6398]

1 hour ago, Vile.4387 said:

Increase addle range to 240.

Increase Extirpate range to 300 and make it AOE, not just facing target (unless it already has it, I can't tell.)

Speed up the auto chains by 1/4 each

Give the teleport evade.

Those would be my changes.

If you wanna get spicy, give the 5 unblockable. For extra kitten killing.

First point, yes, absolutely. It's the only way to make Addle feel fluid with the rest of the kit that sits at 240 range or greater. 

Second point... maybe, but probably not necessary. Extirpate is going to be a hot topic for competitive, expanding its radius might be met with a lot of groaning and moaning. It is a point blank circular AoE though, not just frontal cone, if that's what you're wondering, it's just a rather small for most groupings that aren't super tight. Personally I'd say it could expand though. 

Third part... I'd probably say spear doesn't need to speed up auto chains, but I would point out the first auto chain strike weirdly has longer cast time than the second, which deals more damage and more benefits. Seems like an odd choice, I can only imagine they did it to make the animations look better maybe? Still, seems unnecessary. If I were to reduce any cast times of the auto chain, it'd be on that first strike only. 

Fourth part... I don't think we need an evade on spear, and necro's never really been about that kind of thing. Spear already has some nasty siphons and mechanics, doesn't need to be overloaded. 

[Hel Thanatos.2346]

I might be mistaken i tried all weaps and spear just feels so much less damage, maybe using it wrong but all u do is build 3 shards then number 2 if i aint mistaken... dunno feels lacking a lot of dmg compared to other class spears.

[Vile.4387]

4 minutes ago, FalsePromises.6398 said:

First point, yes, absolutely. It's the only way to make Addle feel fluid with the rest of the kit that sits at 240 range or greater. 

Second point... maybe, but probably not necessary. Extirpate is going to be a hot topic for competitive, expanding its radius might be met with a lot of groaning and moaning. It is a point blank circular AoE though, not just frontal cone, if that's what you're wondering, it's just a rather small for most groupings that aren't super tight. Personally I'd say it could expand though. 

Third part... I'd probably say spear doesn't need to speed up auto chains, but I would point out the first auto chain strike weirdly has longer cast time than the second, which deals more damage and more benefits. Seems like an odd choice, I can only imagine they did it to make the animations look better maybe? Still, seems unnecessary. If I were to reduce any cast times of the auto chain, it'd be on that first strike only. 

Fourth part... I don't think we need an evade on spear, and necro's never really been about that kind of thing. Spear already has some nasty siphons and mechanics, doesn't need to be overloaded. 

I feel like the 4 skill is the opener though, landing the 4 (if you don't land it you wont engage) is the most important part of initiating (Yes I reiterated that). If someone dodges it, kudos for them, but necro landing it, then getting countered after landing it just seems like a bad design. So I have to double dip on my attack in order to get in close with it? Na, that is redonkulous. Give me the evade on porting. If I wanna get in close, and I land my get in close skill, I wanna get in close. The fact that it refreshes the 2 is just a bonus in my opinion. If these other people really wanna give it more damage, I'm not going to complain, maybe leave the life steal as it is though, feels really good TO ME landing it as is (2/4/2) or (2/4/2/Shroud(pick your poison here)/4/2).

Combine that, IF you get lucky with sword/focus for more chase/boon hate/burst, it feels fine.

Most of the issues I have with shroud mechanics, are the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death's_Charge not sticking to targets, so you get left away from moving targets which is bull. Either the target should be interrupted/stunned/immobile/ All 3 because no kitten trash here, or I need to be able to advance to the target location. That's a different discussion though.

Dunno why someone else is comparing GS pulls at 900 range vs 1200 range porting. They are similar, but also different. Similar in that you still get yourself closer to your target. Different in that, You cant pull multiple people, or pull them off a wall with spear.

Speaking of porting, and I think its been mentioned before, but it would be nice if the throw could also pierce, to actually reach your target, with this (ASSASSIN) type weapon. Would be nice to get some burst off with a preemptive spectral walk, and port back after you pew pew a little on your selected target. Too bad it gets interrupted by anything standing in the way.