PvE transfusion nerfs bad.

[Krzysztof.5973]

1 hour ago, Epsilon Indi.2031 said:

This is ignorant on how transfusion worked on Scourge.  The initial cast pulls 4 people.  Then, once it ends, it does the same downstate pull as well.  Mix in 2x well of blood and a HS could, effectively, res a whole squad every 30 seconds.  This is likely why it was removed.  No other class can rez the entire squad as quickly.

Talking about being ignorant... Double pulls from transfusion was removed a year ago. And now when if they are going with the removal of the pull from it, chrono will be far superior with his traited 3x feedback that can indeed revive entire squad (and himself) in seconds - and quicker than necro. 

[TracyLGames.4186]

7 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

 Scourge is a lot easier to play, but it has less tools, which is a fair trade.

Someone hasn't been playing rifle heal chrono.

[HanYanrou.8629]

if ppl had idea as one of posters above how many mistakes i make and mess up. it'd be obvious why i want it to stay.... but i really dont want vote for it and against.

sorry if i sounded rude but honestrly. not just you but also me has to improve and alot. excuse for that but really... i need improvement as much as you do. i dont mean look down on ya. it's just my thoughts expressing things that wya or happen when i write so.

@Maria Murtor.7253

Edited Sunday at 08:28 AM by HanYanrou.8629

[Maria Murtor.7253]

I have read both of your posts several times. I simply can not understand what you are trying to say. And I mean it: I don't understand both of them. Are you agreeing? Disagreeing? Are you trying to be empathetic? I don't know. Maybe it's just me as a non native English speaker, but my brain can not comprehend the way you are writing/the way you are trying to express yourself. Even after running it through a translator, I'm not sure about the point you are trying to make.

At this point there's not much I can add to my stand. I fear, if Transfusion will lose the ability to pull downed players, the whole Heal Scourge option will lose all its flavor and will be simply overshadowed by every other Heal Alac option (even more than it is now). Heal Scourge will suffer the same fate as Heal Specter and will labeled as obscurity like: "Yeah, it exists. Moving on …" Heal Scourge is a great way to help players recover from mistakes, especially new players. There's no learning curve, if a player fails a mechanic at the very start of Vale Guardian and this very player is lying around for the entire rest of the battle, not even able to practice more, while more experienced players handle the rest. It is discouraging to not being able to help, not being able to make up for a mistake. If I were a new player trying to get into raids, and my first ever experience was to be dead after 30 seconds of the fight … I don't know: I would probably never coming back.

I'm someone who especially joins training raids to help people, even when I get nothing in return but the good  feeling at the end. "I did something good today. I made people happy. I helped them achieve something." Heal Scourge is a great tool to do so. It's not the only tool, hell no. But it's a great tool. It is my personal favorite pick for Vale Guardian, for Slothasor, for Matthias. All of these bosses have mechanics were you can easily get downed while being separated from the rest of the party. And as a Heal Scourge I can easily provide them an extra life to stay in the fight, to learn from their mistakes, to getting better. 

[HanYanrou.8629]

13 minutes ago, Maria Murtor.7253 said:

I have read both of your posts several times. I simply can not understand what you are trying to say. And I mean it: I don't understand both of them. Are you agreeing? Disagreeing? Are you trying to be empathetic? I don't know. Maybe it's just me as a non native English speaker, but my brain can not comprehend the way you are writing/the way you are trying to express yourself. Even after running it through a translator, I'm not sure about the point you are trying to make.

At this point there's not much I can add to my stand. I fear, if Transfusion will lose the ability to pull downed players, the whole Heal Scourge option will lose all its flavor and will be simply overshadowed by every other Heal Alac option (even more than it is now). Heal Scourge will suffer the same fate as Heal Specter and will labeled as obscurity like: "Yeah, it exists. Moving on …" Heal Scourge is a great way to help players recover from mistakes, especially new players. There's no learning curve, if a player fails a mechanic at the very start of Vale Guardian and this very player is lying around for the entire rest of the battle, not even able to practice more, while more experienced players handle the rest. It is discouraging to not being able to help, not being able to make up for a mistake. If I were a new player trying to get into raids, and my first ever experience was to be dead after 30 seconds of the fight … I don't know: I would probably never coming back.

I'm someone who especially joins training raids to help people, even when I get nothing in return but the good  feeling at the end. "I did something good today. I made people happy. I helped them achieve something." Heal Scourge is a great tool to do so. It's not the only tool, hell no. But it's a great tool. It is my personal favorite pick for Vale Guardian, for Slothasor, for Matthias. All of these bosses have mechanics were you can easily get downed while being separated from the rest of the party. And as a Heal Scourge I can easily provide them an extra life to stay in the fight, to learn from their mistakes, to getting better. 

barrier in language, and properly expressing myself not to look an kitten which infact did make me look that way.scourge's learning curve onto pugs is a little different as far as i know from friends. in pug groups you cant just full might provide easily due to needing the torch 5 for a cc aswell as f3 going into mass barrier to cheese up things incase another sub's healer struggles into quick heal burst ramp ups. 

in pug groups or trainings u cant just assign people to do specific roles or tasks-as if have 3 ppl cc red on olc cm. that just wont work. u need all the people be prepared to do it-except if, thats a green tank or boomerang. but boom cant still do so. least virtus or spectres can...

to actually properlyt heal as aheal scg in olc cm can get quite tricky. one way you need make sure u have f3 provide swiftness but to just go for swiftness itself can be a dead end for pick up groups with 4-5static ppl and rest of pugs. you learn to sacrifice some swift/might in order to upkeep ppl alive when its needed which is cheese, but thats what is needed for semi casual/randomly filled groups.

and yes @Maria Murtor.7253 i dont want to vote for either even tho i want it to stay.

Edited Sunday at 09:22 AM by HanYanrou.8629

[Nephalem.8921]

10 hours ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

no NOBODY wants this. People who defend whatever anet does want this, but real players dont want this

Real players don't need a low cd downstate teleport to clear content.

I wanted this a decade ago.

[noemi.7418]

8 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Talking about being ignorant... Double pulls from transfusion was removed a year ago. And now when if they are going with the removal of the pull from it, chrono will be far superior with his traited 3x feedback that can indeed revive entire squad (and himself) in seconds - and quicker than necro. 

IME there aren't a lot of situations where taking the Feedback revive trait will compensate for the substantial healing loss of foregoing Restorative Mantras. It's a pretty hefty opportunity cost to the point where I've never once felt like a more effective healer taking it. Even when taking Feedback is already a given like on Matty G.

[Cameirus.8407]

11 hours ago, ItsAlive.1236 said:

hahahaha hooooo man.  Hohohohohoho man.  Way to tell on yourself, dear god.

But following that logic, can't wait to see portal removed from mesmer.  "Do the content yourself, learn to move, don't rely on other people's mobility!  No must-take professions!"

Tell me another profession that can hardcarry a pug run like a heal scourge? do you even play this game? lol

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

10 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Talking about being ignorant... Double pulls from transfusion was removed a year ago. And now when if they are going with the removal of the pull from it, chrono will be far superior with his traited 3x feedback that can indeed revive entire squad (and himself) in seconds - and quicker than necro. 

Either way, Chrono has to take a trait for it and also do a different rotation to get 3x feedback to res everyone.  Necro just takes a trait and can sit on it until its necessary because healscourge doesn't need to use shroud 4 for anything.

[Pifil.5193]

This is a bad idea that could relegate heal scourge to the bin.

Where some other classes have a strong "revive in place" mechanic like the druid Glyph necros rely on teleporting downed players to their feet so they can manually revive them because both transfusion and well of blood have already been nerfed to only provide a piddling amount of revive (and of course they have no intention to restore that functionality).

I guess that means F4 just enters the mindless part of  playing scourge. Hit it whenever it's off cool down for a tiny amount of healing. Yay, more blandness!

[Astralporing.1957]

On 9/14/2024 at 1:48 AM, Royal Grand Majesty.9852 said:

I believe A-Net is aiming to push players to interact more with in-game mechanics, improve on your movement/positioning and take responsibility for your own actions, rather than just brute-forcing your way through everything the game throws at you.

They tried that for years. It never worked. All they will accomplish this time is lowering participation rates for JW raids. And probably killing the idea of Raid revival as a sideeffect.

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Real players don't need a low cd downstate teleport to clear content.

I wanted this a decade ago.

Yup, funny how some of those "totally hard content enjoyers" keep saying they need transfusion to carry them play it and if you claim you don't/shouldn't need it... it's a sign you're not playing the content, apparently 🤭 

19 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

They tried that for years. It never worked. All they will accomplish this time is lowering participation rates for JW raids. And probably killing the idea of Raid revival as a sideeffect.

And you truly believe people gain or lose interest in content based on being dragged through it by necro constantly reviving them while teleporting to safety? That's an interesting take, but can't say it makes much sense to me. If running out of danger zones is a dealbreaker here, I don't see how those players are interested in playing it in the first place.

Transfusion destroyed encounter design to the point that either the players would need to be instantly killed skipping downstate or they're basically unkillable. People complain about the removal not because it was fun, it's because it was stupidly strong and a get free out of jail card on a low cd. If training runs kept failing and someone decided the switch to hscg is needed, the learning proccess was over and the "lets drag those players to rewards anyways" proccess began.

 

 

And while this is not specifically targeted at anyone I quoted in this post, I'm repeating the question that still remained unanswered:
What exactly does heal scourge need that it doesn't have so that you think this one change makes it "basically useless"? Because spoiler alert: it won't be.

Edited Sunday at 03:21 PM by Sobx.1758

[noemi.7418]

Anyway I don't mind Transfusion being changed but I don't like the scorched earth approach here. I'd rather it be brought more in line with rangers' Search and Rescue. Maybe revive everyone in range but only teleport 1-2 players closest to center, give it a decision point in who you prioritize saving.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, Pifil.5193 said:

This is a bad idea that could relegate heal scourge to the bin.

Where some other classes have a strong "revive in place" mechanic like the druid Glyph necros rely on teleporting downed players to their feet so they can manually revive them because both transfusion and well of blood have already been nerfed to only provide a piddling amount of revive (and of course they have no intention to restore that functionality).

I guess that means F4 just enters the mindless part of  playing scourge. Hit it whenever it's off cool down for a tiny amount of healing. Yay, more blandness!

Removing Transfusion's port won't make Heal Scourge bad. Undeath Signet will still exist. Druid's AoE revive is on a 48sec cooldown compared to Garish Pillar's 15s and it requires you to be in Astral Form for it to be ressing, otherwise it's condi cleanse and Stab.

[Pifil.5193]

58 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Removing Transfusion's port won't make Heal Scourge bad. Undeath Signet will still exist. Druid's AoE revive is on a 48sec cooldown compared to Garish Pillar's 15s and it requires you to be in Astral Form for it to be ressing, otherwise it's condi cleanse and Stab.

Heal scourge is already mediocre as a healer, the ability to teleport to safety and partially revive downed players went part of the way to counterbalance that and was a god send in open world content. 

As for the cooldown of garish pillar vs the druid Glyph well, increasing the cooldown is something they could have done instead of flat removal. I've seen people suggest something like scrapper gyro, maybe increase the cooldown by a percentage per person teleported, that sounds more interesting to me than removing yet another unique mechanic. (Edit: Or maybe add a debuff on the raised player so they can't be teleported more than once every 2 minutes or whatever.)

Instead F4 just enters the standard rotation for a minor heal. 

Edited Sunday at 05:31 PM by Pifil.5193

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

6 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Real players don't need a low cd downstate teleport to clear content.

I wanted this a decade 

 You expect me to believe that you get really upset when a scourge saves you from downed state lol?, they've been nerfing it since last year but i guess thats not enough it needs to be removed after existing for years with virtually nobody complaining about it. Nobody said they needed it to clear content lol.  I said nobody wants this change. You gain nothing by having scourge nerfed in pve.  You just die more, get to spend more time doing fights over and over if you bring new players, so it increases toxic elitism because there will be even less ways to help new players. It also guts the classes identity for no reason.

Edited Sunday at 05:24 PM by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[ItsAlive.1236]

5 hours ago, Cameirus.8407 said:

Tell me another profession that can hardcarry a pug run like a heal scourge?

Oh, dear, you doubled down.  Yes, scourge is very good at hard-carrying.

17 hours ago, Cameirus.8407 said:

 must take profession

Cause you missed it the first time, this suggests you desperately need carrying. A must-have.
 

5 hours ago, Cameirus.8407 said:

do you even play this game?

 

[Woggles.2941]

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Removing Transfusion's port won't make Heal Scourge bad. Undeath Signet will still exist. Druid's AoE revive is on a 48sec cooldown compared to Garish Pillar's 15s and it requires you to be in Astral Form for it to be ressing, otherwise it's condi cleanse and Stab.

Now compare it with Signet of Undeath.

[Sobx.1758]

58 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

You just die more

Maybe you do, people who don't need to rely on getting dragged through content and its mechanics shouldn't need it in the first place, it is/was op for almost every encounter. It doens't help people learn, it helps people skip learning.

I'm repeating the question that still remained unanswered:
What exactly does heal scourge need that it doesn't have so that you think this one change makes it "basically useless"? Because spoiler alert: it won't be.

 

58 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

so it increases toxic elitism because there will be even less ways to help new players.

False, when I play with newer players, I don't try relying on tranfusion gimmick to make them invincible. Instead, we explain the mechanics and help them improve to actually complete the content.

Edited Sunday at 06:09 PM by Sobx.1758

[Degs.5148]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What exactly does heal scourge need that it doesn't have so that you think this one change makes it "basically useless"? Because spoiler alert: it won't be.

I think it's a valid question.  I pretty much agree, I don't think it'll be useless.  Barrier gen is good, sand swell is unique and one of my favorite things in the game. Serpent Siphon is super cool now.

I just don't see a use-case for it outside very niche situations.  I'm going to play druid if I need overwhelming heals or revives or chrono/some-flavor-of-guardian or rev if I don't.  Better stability, better utility, better CC, more aegis.

Cele hybrid scourge will still be fun in fractals, though.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

54 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Maybe you do, people who don't need to rely on getting dragged through content and its mechanics shouldn't need it in the first place, it is/was op for almost every encounter. It doens't help people learn, it helps people skip learning.

I'm repeating the question that still remained unanswered:
What exactly does heal scourge need that it doesn't have so that you think this one change makes it "basically useless"? Because spoiler alert: it won't be.

 

False, when I play with newer players, I don't try relying on tranfusion gimmick to make them invincible. Instead, we explain the mechanics and help them improve to actually complete the content.

Lol way to promote toxic elitism.  Just like on the forums. I never said I relied on it lol.  I said it helps new players.  No it doesn't make them invincible and it barely helps if at all on LCM content which you clearly don't do.  And yah I sure buy it that when you go down, (which im sure you do) and a scourge raises you that you're like, noooo it so overpowered, leave me dead, I need more practice.  Lmao right.

All healers help all players why would anyone want to nerf what they do, when nobody is complaining about their skills, and in pve its not a competitive environment for healing lol.  9/10 every event or strike or raid that I pug, few people want to heal, so why make it a class that even fewer people want to play?

That ought to make world events like eparch really friendly.  So now I get to watch tons of people go down,  I can't pull them out of a well they went down in, and as a veteran player who knows the eparch fight 100% I get to fail it because, oh we nerfed healers and according to you I get to fail so that other players learn, yah no thanks, I like scourge as it is, and 99% of the deaths on eparch are due to lag or when you zone into the boss room.  Sure feels great knowing a fight 100% but because new players showed up or lag kicks in and they died in a pool that they cant see because it hasnt loaded on their screen yet, I get to waste an hour and get nothing because I can't help them because my healing build was nerfed. 

Also your argument could be applied to all healers of any class using any skill, which is why it's ridiculous, we should just get rid of healers with your logic, that way we can all "learn" how to do the mechanics without the "invincibility" of heals/boons.  Give me a break what a joke.

Edited Sunday at 07:01 PM by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

48 minutes ago, Woggles.2941 said:

Now compare it with Signet of Undeath.

Going for a "gotcha", like I didn't say that cutting down the cooldown of Undeath would be good with the change in a response to Lupix yesterday.

But, I'll go for a comparison. Signet of Undeath has a longer CD, resurrects the person targeted instantly and doesn't restrict you to be in shroud or any other special condition beyond requiring half your health, if that is an issue then you should practice healing. On top of that if Druid wants to provide Stab then that is one of two options for it.
Unlike Function Gyro you don't use Signet of Undeath actively for anything, the Function Gyro is there for CC, combo field for quickness and even Prot generation.

[Sobx.1758]

51 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Lol way to promote toxic elitism.  Just like on the forums. I never said I relied on it lol.  I said it helps new players.  No it doesn't make them invincible and it barely helps if at all on LCM content which you clearly don't do.  And yah I sure buy it that when you go down, (which im sure you do) and a scourge raises you that you're like, noooo it so overpowered, leave me dead, I need more practice.  Lmao right.

All healers help all players why would anyone want to nerf what they do, when nobody is complaining about their skills, and in pve its not a competitive environment for healing lol.  9/10 every event or strike or raid that I pug, few people want to heal, so why make it a class that even fewer people want to play?

That ought to make world events like eparch really friendly.  So now I get to watch tons of people go down,  I can't pull them out of a well they went down in, and as a veteran player who knows the eparch fight 100% I get to fail it because, oh we nerfed healers and according to you I get to fail so that other players learn, yah no thanks, I like scourge as it is, and 99% of the deaths on eparch are due to lag or when you zone into the boss room.  Sure feels great knowing a fight 100% but because new players showed up or lag kicks in and they died in a pool that they cant see because it hasnt loaded on their screen yet, I get to waste an hour and get nothing because I can't help them because my healing build was nerfed.

In no way I promoted anything like "toxic elitism", not here, not anywhere else, but it's always great when you start throwing unsubstantiated accusations like this one or the one in your initial response to me.

As I said, this doesn't teach players anything, it drags them through the content and makes them nearly invicible. It's an op trait and there's no way around it. You claim you "never said you relied on it" (of course you didn't spell it out, why would you 🙄), but the moment I explained this doesn't teach players anything during those encounters, you defaulted into claim that I'm "not playing strikes/raids/harder content". It's nonsense, transfusion in no way is needed -or even in any way crucial- for the players to learn and play that content.
Way to promote avoiding mechanics and actively playing the game because you can keep relying on a short cd downstate tp/rez from a healer. It's a broken ability that in no way promotes learning the content.

51 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Also your argument could be applied to all healers of any class using any skill, which is why it's ridiculous, we should just get rid of healers with your logic, that way we can all "learn" how to do the mechanics without the "invincibility" of heals/boons.  Give me a break what a joke.

That's absolutely false and that's not what my logic here is at all. If transfusion did the same thing every other healer does, you wouldn't be so desperately crying about it. So at this point you're intentionally blurring what was being said to this nonsensical "buuuut healers always help so it's the same?!" broad claim in order to avoid what this is actually about.

51 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

And yah I sure buy it that when you go down, (which im sure you do) and a scourge raises you that you're like, noooo it so overpowered, leave me dead, I need more practice.  Lmao right.

I ususally don't go down, but if I happen to make a mistake to go down, I deserve it and if I was so terribly positioned that I need to be ported back in order to be picked up, I don't deserve to be picked up. But usually that's not what happens for me because I use my eyes and keys, you should try doing the same instead of making another baseless claim that I totally need transfusion to save me when you're the one desperate for it to not be removed. 🤦‍♂️ The positions we take here really speak for themselves and shows who actually needs/wants to keep relying on these cheap get out of jail free cards. And yes, it's you, not me.

 

 

1 hour ago, Degs.5148 said:

I think it's a valid question.  I pretty much agree, I don't think it'll be useless.  Barrier gen is good, sand swell is unique and one of my favorite things in the game. Serpent Siphon is super cool now.

I just don't see a use-case for it outside very niche situations.  I'm going to play druid if I need overwhelming heals or revives or chrono/some-flavor-of-guardian or rev if I don't.  Better stability, better utility, better CC, more aegis.

Cele hybrid scourge will still be fun in fractals, though.

Fair, but I don't see how it's suddenly a niche pick when it can do everything a healer needs to do. At that point it becomes more of the matter of preference.

Edited Sunday at 07:30 PM by Sobx.1758

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

11 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

In no way I promoted anything like "toxic elitism", not here, not anywhere else, but it's always great when you start throwing unsubstantiated accusations like this one or the one in your initial response to me.

As I said, this doesn't teach players anything, it drags them through the content and makes them nearly invicible. It's an op trait and there's no way around it. You claim you "never said you relied on it" (of course you didn't spell it out, why would you 🙄), but the moment I explained this doesn't teach players anything during those encounters, you defaulted into claim that I'm "not playing strikes/raids/harder content". It's nonsense, transfusion in no way is needed -or even in any way crucial- for the players to learn and play that content.
Way to promote avoiding mechanics and actively playing the game because you can keep relying on a short cd downstate tp/rez from a healer. It's a broken ability that in no way promotes learning the content.

 

Fair, but I don't see how it's suddenly a niche pick when it can do everything a healer needs to do. At that point it becomes more of the matter of preference.

so how is a player supposed to learn that when you zone into a boss room too fast, that 99% of the hazard mechanics fail to render and they go down the second they appear inside a boss room, downed standing in a well, and now they cant be helped?  Because they should learn that the game cant render hazards that quickly lol?  THe pull move is used way more in open world content then it is in difficult content like you say where it becomes this god tier carry in your words.  Its ridiculous.  Good players dont even need to use it, and it helps teach newer players or save them from mechanics that are either gimmicky, cheesy or unfair (like lag not rending hazards or oh no the boss is charging up with no tells no obvious reason as to what you should do, oh he did the "thing!" and now all the noobs are blown up cuz THEY DIDNT KNOW to do the NON OBVIOUS thing, im sorry gimmicky cheesy mechanics with no tells shouldnt be something that someone has to learn by wiping everyone in a raid/group/event). This in turn leads the perception that newer players are huge liability or that they are inadvertently griefing veteran players around them, who will definitely yell at them in map chat and will promote toxicity if it causes them to lose an event, and you're promoting that.  Saying its overpowered is meaningless, ALL HEALERS are overpowerd compared to non healers in terms of survivability.

Edited Sunday at 07:31 PM by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

so how is a player supposed to learn that when you zone into a boss room too fast, that 99% of the hazard mechanics fail to render and they go down the second they appear INSIDE a well, and now they cant be helped?  Because they should learn that the game cant render hazards that quickly lol? 

Sounds like your hardware issue. And sounds like you need to rely on cheap mechanics to get through content, which other players don't actually really need.

5 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

content then it is in difficult content like you say where it becomes this god tier carry in your words.  Its ridiculous. 

It's not ridiculous, that's literally what it is, time to stop deluding yourself.

5 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

  Good players dont even need to use i,t

Glad you were finally able to understand what I'm saying, but not sure why you're now writing this "sudden revelation" back at me?

5 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

and it helps teach newer players

No, it doesn't. It helps them skip mechanics and allows scourge to drag other players through content. This is not teaching nor learning. I already explained that.

5 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

ALL HEALERS are overpowerd compared to non healers in terms of survivability

The same way dps builds are overpowered compared to healers when it comes to dps. It's because everyone has their role in a group, but that doesn't have anything to do with this thread or with what I said. Cheap get out of jail free card every few seconds isn't needed for healers to keep doing their job.

Edited Sunday at 07:36 PM by Sobx.1758