Mobility

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Can we have a mobility buff?

Everyone and their mother is faster than mesmer nowadays.

From a profession that was among the most mobile ones to the least mobile on the game (sword mirage excluded) without any sort of compensation.

 

This is PvP/WvW related. Don't care about pve.

[Mell.4873]

I find access to stealth is more powerful that mobility. When I chase Mesmer's I can keep up but they can hide very easily due to stealth.

Even if Willbender has alot of Speed there are ways to catch up and kill them since I can alway see them. 

Edited September 14 by Mell.4873

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

10 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I find access to stealth is more powerful that mobility. When I chase Mesmer's I can keep up but they can hide very easily due to stealth.

Even if Willbender has alot of Speed there are ways to catch up and kill them since I can alway see them. 

Access to stealth is good but means kitten when you're as fast as a tortoise on the back of a snail walking on mud.

You'll never catch a willbender or every other profession on game not even with superspeed from relic of unseen evasion.

[noemi.7418]

With the surrounding utility creep Blink feels like it should have 2 charges at this point but otherwise I don't find chasing or escaping particularly hard as long as I'm actively thinking about the space my allies and opponents control and working to maximize my space while shrinking the opponent's. Mobility doesn't mean much if your deployment strategy is failing you.

[Jeyzer.1605]

I agree that Mesmer went from one of the most mobile class to one of the least, but I don't think it needs more mobility in its core kit per say, that would just creep the game even more.

4 hours ago, noemi.7418 said:

With the surrounding utility creep Blink feels like it should have 2 charges at this point

That would be beyond broken unfortunately, and if they do that, other classes will follow suit and it would just open a pandora box of mobility creep.

I think some tweaks could be made to the existing one, like reducing the CD of Jaunt or bringing the charges back up to 3 in WvW, changing Sword #3 to be instant rather than a double cast, or improving Mirage Advance (reduce the cast time) & Illusionary Ambush (remove the random position for the player, let us ground target our destination around the target enemy).

At most, we could benefit from a new offhand weapon (dagger I beg) that would have a midrange blink on #4 with phantasm (kind of like Axe #3 in a way, you blink behind the target and spawn a phantasm next to you, then both of you stab for backstab damage, replace the evade with target break instead) and some short daze on #5 that would either boon rip or stealth on interrupt. Would be nice as an offhand roaming assassin weapon.

We're pretty covered now in terms of main hand weapons and two handed, the only aspect we're kind of lacking is in the offhand roaming department, where there isn't a solid option right now. Torch is fine but feels bad on power builds. Pistol is whatever, used to work great on Dagger + Pistol but they killed that build. Sword and focus are irrelevant on moving targets. Shield is for bunker builds (ew). 

But if anything, I think the best solution would be nerfing the mobility of classes that are NOT supposed to be mobile. Necromancers for example are meant to be a low mobility class and they keep getting dashes and blinks (two dashes on Sword, two blinks on Spear....). That's getting rid of their only true weakness, since they've been getting decent active defense as well on the side, which was supposed to be their other weak point lmao. 

Edited September 15 by Jeyzer.1605

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, noemi.7418 said:

With the surrounding utility creep Blink feels like it should have 2 charges at this point but otherwise I don't find chasing or escaping particularly hard as long as I'm actively thinking about the space my allies and opponents control and working to maximize my space while shrinking the opponent's. Mobility doesn't mean much if your deployment strategy is failing you.

You can give it two charges if you use Mimic this is what I do in PvE. 

But I do get everyone's point it is very hard to catch people now days. 

[Jeyzer.1605]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

You can give it two charges if you use Mimic this is what I do in PvE. 

Yes and I use that in WvW in one of my Mirage builds. I run Mimic + Blink + Portal in my super squishy full ranged DPS build, in order to stay alive but that comes at the cost of losing some important utility. Getting it for free would be too much. 

[Deth.4109]

5 hours ago, Jeyzer.1605 said:

I agree that Mesmer went from one of the most mobile class to one of the least, but I don't think it needs more mobility in its core kit per say, that would just creep the game even more.

That would be beyond broken unfortunately, and if they do that, other classes will follow suit and it would just open a pandora box of mobility creep.

I think some tweaks could be made to the existing one, like reducing the CD of Jaunt or bringing the charges back up to 3 in WvW, changing Sword #3 to be instant rather than a double cast, or improving Mirage Advance (reduce the cast time) & Illusionary Ambush (remove the random position for the player, let us ground target our destination around the target enemy).

At most, we could benefit from a new offhand weapon (dagger I beg) that would have a midrange blink on #4 with phantasm (kind of like Axe #3 in a way, you blink behind the target and spawn a phantasm next to you, then both of you stab for backstab damage, replace the evade with target break instead) and some short daze on #5 that would either boon rip or stealth on interrupt. Would be nice as an offhand roaming assassin weapon.

We're pretty covered now in terms of main hand weapons and two handed, the only aspect we're kind of lacking is in the offhand roaming department, where there isn't a solid option right now. Torch is fine but feels bad on power builds. Pistol is whatever, used to work great on Dagger + Pistol but they killed that build. Sword and focus are irrelevant on moving targets. Shield is for bunker builds (ew). 

But if anything, I think the best solution would be nerfing the mobility of classes that are NOT supposed to be mobile. Necromancers for example are meant to be a low mobility class and they keep getting dashes and blinks (two dashes on Sword, two blinks on Spear....). That's getting rid of their only true weakness, since they've been getting decent active defense as well on the side, which was supposed to be their other weak point lmao. 

A new offhand would be amazing. Mes off weps are genuinely terrible outside of pistol and shield. I would like to see offhand dagger as well. mostly because the aesthetics of it would be really cool and it feels weird to MH dagger and offhand sword. 

here is an idea I had about a new weapon skills

Dagger 4
Phantasmal infiltrator: Summons a phantasm at the mesmers target. If the phantasm strikes the target grants the caster 2 seconds of stealth. 
3

Dagger 5
coup de grace: Hurl a psychic dagger at the target that explodes in a small radius 
if used from stealth, increases radius and damage
removes 2 boons.

this idea is free Cal you don't have to pay me for it. take it. DO IT.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Deth.4109 said:

A new offhand would be amazing. Mes off weps are genuinely terrible outside of pistol and shield. I would like to see offhand dagger as well. mostly because the aesthetics of it would be really cool and it feels weird to MH dagger and offhand sword. 

here is an idea I had about a new weapon skills

Dagger 4
Phantasmal infiltrator: Summons a phantasm at the mesmers target. If the phantasm strikes the target grants the caster 2 seconds of stealth. 
3

Dagger 5
coup de grace: Hurl a psychic dagger at the target that explodes in a small radius 
if used from stealth, increases radius and damage
removes 2 boons.

this idea is free Cal you don't have to pay me for it. take it. DO IT.

An offhand axe would also work too. 

Not to sure what it could add but maybe a personal recall like Thief. It could also have extra effects based on the number of clones you have active. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

On 9/15/2024 at 1:17 PM, noemi.7418 said:

With the surrounding utility creep Blink feels like it should have 2 charges at this point but otherwise I don't find chasing or escaping particularly hard as long as I'm actively thinking about the space my allies and opponents control and working to maximize my space while shrinking the opponent's. Mobility doesn't mean much if your deployment strategy is failing you.

I though about this, the only reason this would be op is because blink is a stunbreaker otherwise it would be on line with the rest of the game. That said stunbreaker is still better.

Mirage is fine but there's no reason at all to not give back jaunt 3 charges.

The other mesmer specs are painfully slow comparing to every other profession on game. Even guardians and necros that are supposed to be the slow professions are usain bolt now and mesmer was left in the gutter.

It should be something akin to tankiness/damage/mobility/support choose 2.

[Mell.4873]

10 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I though about this, the only reason this would be op is because blink is a stunbreaker otherwise it would be on line with the rest of the game. That said stunbreaker is still better.

Mirage is fine but there's no reason at all to not give back jaunt 3 charges.

The other mesmer specs are painfully slow comparing to every other profession on game. Even guardians and necros that are supposed to be the slow professions are usain bolt now and mesmer was left in the gutter.

It should be something akin to tankiness/damage/mobility/support choose 2.

I think it's more down to the weapons. Most of our mobility comes from utilities while other classes it cones from weapons or their class mechanic like in the case of Willbender or Soulbeast.

If they gave us more mobility weapons, which spear is a great start it will be better. 

Edited September 16 by Mell.4873

[Kulvar.1239]

On 9/15/2024 at 2:17 PM, noemi.7418 said:

With the surrounding utility creep Blink feels like it should have 2 charges at this point but otherwise I don't find chasing or escaping particularly hard as long as I'm actively thinking about the space my allies and opponents control and working to maximize my space while shrinking the opponent's. Mobility doesn't mean much if your deployment strategy is failing you.

If it had 2 charges, ANet would crank up the cooldown to 40~45s.
I'm fine with it, but that's something to keep in mind.

 

[Codename T.2847]

Imo Mesmer is the only one of the 9 classes that is genuinely balanced well. (Maybe Ele being the 2nd one)  If you want big damage from double mantras, you will give up on stealth signet or mimic. If you want great mobility with mimic + blink, you will give up on double mantras. If you want cleanses you give up on signet heal. My point being, there is a great deal of opportunity cost to this class, and it's something that every class should've had ideally, but they were almost all powercrept to hell... Looking at you guardian/ranger/reaper/holo/vindi XD

Edited September 18 by Codename T.2847

[Deth.4109]

8 hours ago, Codename T.2847 said:

Imo Mesmer is the only one of the 9 classes that is genuinely balanced well. (Maybe Ele being the 2nd one)  If you want big damage from double mantras, you will give up on stealth signet or mimic. If you want great mobility with mimic + blink, you will give up on double mantras. If you want cleanses you give up on signet heal. My point being, there is a great deal of opportunity cost to this class, and it's something that every class should've had ideally, but they were almost all powercrept to hell... Looking at you guardian/ranger/reaper/holo/vindi XD

I tend to agree. people talk about Mesmer as though it gets a free lunch in terms of damage and sustain and mobility and stealth. I have one of each profession and since 2012 have mained all but theif and engi at one time. Most professions have traits that allow synergy stacking to blow massively out of proportion one aspect of a build. Mesmer can never have all that it wants at once. You can try but there really is no design for it in the class. 
When people suggest nerfs to mesmer they are always looking at one annoying thing it does well not realizing that without that thing Mesmer will loose its niche. As someone who also took a liking to necro in the past few years seeing a class be gutted for what it should do well is brutal. 

[Triptaminas.4789]

U guys know the weapon movement skills usually missmatch in actual range it covers with the tool tips? 

Guess which movement skill is actually shortest in game? Sword leap that's what. I think blink is exemption with accurate range, rest of mes stuff is at the bottom of mobility chain.. we can chain lot of them tho, so that's that.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 9/16/2024 at 3:21 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Mirage is fine but there's no reason at all to not give back jaunt 3 charges.
 

There is; Jaunt is still by far the best Elite Skill on Mirage, thus is is not logical to buff it.

[Codename T.2847]

5 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

There is; Jaunt is still by far the best Elite Skill on Mirage, thus is is not logical to buff it.

What does that kookily skill even do? Short teleport and cleansing 1 condi? 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

15 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

There is; Jaunt is still by far the best Elite Skill on Mirage, thus is is not logical to buff it.

Did you drop the /s or is this real?

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

17 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Did you drop the /s or is this real?

You always always play jaunt on every single Mirage build, never any of the other elite skills. Thus, Jaunt should not be buffed since it is already stronger than the competing elite skills.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

10 hours ago, Codename T.2847 said:

What does that kookily skill even do? Short teleport and cleansing 1 condi? 

Short teleport is extremely valuable in PvP (which is what we are talking about since OP mentioned 2 charges which it only has in PvP (well, and wvw ofc))

[Jobber.6348]

On 9/14/2024 at 11:26 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

(sword mirage excluded)

Casually excluding the one spec and one weapon that enables extreme mobility for Mesmer, especially since IH Sword Mesmer's Daze is extremely powerful for both Power and Condition builds. In fact, one of the most popular and arguable best WvW Mesmer builds is Cele Mirage which uses Sword Pistol to absolutely chase down and shut down their prey. 

If you're talking about giving more mobility options to other builds, that's cool but I find it rather disingenuous to paint this picture that Mesmer has low mobility. I personally find Axe needing help to get on their target. I'll say Axe needs some love in general anyway. 

Edited Monday at 05:53 PM by Jobber.6348

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

You always always play jaunt on every single Mirage build, never any of the other elite skills. Thus, Jaunt should not be buffed since it is already stronger than the competing elite skills.

Might be because apart from MI, every mesmer elite is garbage and not because Jaunt is good?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Jobber.6348 said:

Casually excluding the one spec and one weapon that enables extreme mobility for Mesmer, especially since IH Sword Mesmer's Daze is extremely powerful for both Power and Condition builds. In fact, one of the most popular and arguable best WvW Mesmer builds is Cele Mirage which uses Sword Pistol to absolutely chase down and shut down their prey. 

If you're talking about giving more mobility options to other builds, that's cool but I find it rather disingenuous to paint this picture that Mesmer has low mobility. I personally find Axe needing help to get on their target. I'll say Axe needs some love in general anyway. 

Extreme mobility. Thieves, willbenders laughed.
IH sword is good but buggy too, abuse terrain and it misses like no tomorrow.

Regarding the last bit, what part of excluding mirage didn't you understand?

[Jobber.6348]

29 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Extreme mobility. Thieves, willbenders laughed.
IH sword is good but buggy too, abuse terrain and it misses like no tomorrow.

Regarding the last bit, what part of excluding mirage didn't you understand?

And where do you get off picking the two best specs for mobility and demanding your entire class gets buffed to a similar state? Mesmer's class identity is confusion and misdirection, not running laps. The fact you even have Sword Mirage which gives you immense mobility over at least 4 or 5 other classes and their specs is already an excellent option for the class to have. 

And yes, Mirage is your mobile ambush spec, so why exclude it? It's part of Mesmer and the spec focuses your playstyle into hit and run. Blah blah skill buggy has a simple solution: make the skills better or fix the skills. 

So what is your argument here? Mesmer needs to be as good or beat thieves in mobility baseline? Is that what you're really asking for? If this is really what you're asking for, I'm against it. Players need to play classes for their class identity, not look at another class and whinge and beg the devs to make their class similar in performance when you can just play that class instead. I suspect the fact Willbender even exists is because they randomly decided to have Guardian match Thief's mobility and burst damage, which is all sorts of wrong and should have never happened.

 

Edited Monday at 08:18 PM by Jobber.6348

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Might be because apart from MI, every mesmer elite is garbage and not because Jaunt is good?

Doesn't change the point

Edited Monday at 09:00 PM by agrippastrilemma.8741