If warrior's spear was bloated, what's guard's spear? 💀

[Kuya.6495]

6 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You almost understand why they're mad. You're so close

Well yea, this is the same situation as warrior. Spellbreaker was causing the obvious problems but spear and staff got nerfed for some reason. Similarly willbender is the one causing the complaints yet the conversation is about the spear instead in this thread. But the difference is I do think spellbreaker needed a nerf, and not war staff or spear. And I don't think willbender needs a nerf but I do think solar storm needs a shave because it is kind of bananas that you can almost one shot a team fight if you shoot an illuminated solar storm and nobody notices it cause they're stunlocked by mesmers and reapers.

Edit: I'm assuming you meant why warriors are mad

Edited Wednesday at 03:08 PM by Kuya.6495

[Supernova Starr.2069]

16 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Its definitely not mid. I like how it is designed.  Its what I expect most glass classes to be, plus or minus a little of the defenses that run at the same time as their attacking either by design or by affording the possibility. Unfortunately the rest of the game is balanced away from that metric.

This balance team doesnt seem to be very aware of okizeme, and actively destroys it when it surfaces obviously, so while I enjoy fighting them, willbenders are a bit of an anomaly. Hopefully the way this goes is that the players decide that kind of aggression is good in moderation and advocate for that design being applied elsewhere.

You sumarized everything, major pin points in my opinion is that some classes cannot afford to respond to WB and at the same time other classes can counter pretty easy and effective, and as you said the balance here is where it should be (somewhat), and what it should be aimed to.

While I'm aware is not a weak spec or need major buffs, Willy is far from being the menace sPvP sub puts them to be, which why I said most theses posts aren't worth reply to.

Might be annoying to fight it? Yes. It's a one sided encounter? Absolutely not.

And this is why WB does not need to be toned down or gutted.

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I do think solar storm needs a shave because it is kind of bananas that you can almost one shot a team fight if you shoot an illuminated solar storm and nobody notices it cause they're stunlocked by mesmers and reapers.

I am inclined to disagree! If you see big red circle you should leave the point.  If you're getting stunlocked and you don't have a bead on the willbender you're outplayed already-

 

But that's just me 

3 minutes ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

You sumarized everything, major pin points in my opinion is that some classes cannot afford to respond to WB and at the same time other classes can counter pretty easy and effective, and as you said the balance here is where it should be (somewhat), and what it should be aimed to.

While I'm aware is not a weak spec or need major buffs, Willy is far from being the menace sPvP sub puts them to be, which why I said most theses posts aren't worth reply to.

Might be annoying to fight it? Yes. It's a one sided encounter? Absolutely not.

And this is why WB does not need to be toned down or gutted.

 

All I want is for the reasonableness that's been used to arrive at this conclusion to be applied across the board. If this is the standard then let it be so. 

[Kuya.6495]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I am inclined to disagree! If you see big red circle you should leave the point.  If you're getting stunlocked and you don't have a bead on the willbender you're outplayed already-

 

I agree! But I'm trying to be reasonable and make concessions where I think concessions can be made. I think solar storm is telegraphed enough to make its damage justified but I also understand the mob wants blood and something will have to be nerfed to satisfy them. I would rather nerf something on the kit that still keeps spear willbender viable albeit less of a threat in team fights.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I agree! But I'm trying to be reasonable and make concessions where I think concessions can be made. I think solar storm is telegraphed enough to make its damage justified but I also understand the mob wants blood and something will have to be nerfed to satisfy them. I would rather nerf something on the kit that still keeps spear willbender viable albeit less of a threat in team fights.

I'm just trying to find where the skill issue bedrock is ngl.

There doesnt seem to be one, we're gonna dig forever if not. The balance mob shouldn't be able to balance on annoying but avoidable, and wherever we set that anchor the other weapons and specs should follow suit.

I much prefer this to Dragonhunter. 💀

Edited Wednesday at 03:34 PM by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Captain Crapface.7528]

4 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I would rather nerf something on the kit that still keeps spear willbender viable albeit less of a threat in team fights.

I'd be happy to see it stay a threat, its supposed to be high risk, high reward, assasin.

I just want the stick and the carrot to be applied equally amongst classes, which in general doesn't seem to be the case.

[Flowki.7194]

15 hours ago, HardStuckBronze.2439 said:

Willbender is hard carried by getting all the important boons on < 30 cd, and having top tier mobility and damage. I understand why people dislike it. I can try hard on another class like power herald or roll willbender for easy mode. 

That is WB/Virt in a nutshell. It is noticably more difficult to kill a WB/Virt than it is a herald of comparable skill level, which suggests that Herald is a good example of risk/reward balance, which would mean WB/Virt are not risky enough OR, Herald needs a buff, a reduction in risk. Which is it?

 

Personally I think Herald, the current state, is one of the most balanced in its slot in terms of effort to play, risk, and punishment for mistakes. The only reason it does not get used more (IMO) is that there are easier OR less risky virsions.. and not by small margins.

Edited Wednesday at 06:03 PM by Flowki.7194

[HardStuckBronze.2439]

5 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Most their damaging strikes are avoidable up front, unless you fail to evade an equally obvious setup, like advancing strike.

Quite often I’m combining judges intervention with advancing strike while I have quickness. I can port in on someone from 1200 range while they are fighting someone else, immobilize them, blind them, and dish out 10K+ damage before they even realize what happened. 
 

During this whole burst I have 100% crit chance, 8-10 stacks of might, fury, resolution, swiftness, light aura. They are immob, slow, blind, and weakened for good measure. 
 

If by some freak chance that completely stacked opener doesn’t work out I have tons of movement skills left to either stick to them and finish the job or kite away only to repeat the entire process again in < 30 seconds. 
 

If I really get into trouble my F3 is a stunbreak & port. It also gives 4 stacks of stab, multiple aegis, protection, resolution, resistance, & swiftness on a 25 sec cd.
 

I also have a third dodge in the form of my F2 that gives boons, removes conditions including immob and is yet another movement skill. 
 

How a guard main @Supernova Starr.2069 even keeps a straight face while saying this is balanced is beyond me. Name one other roamer / dps with this stacked of a kit.  Is it fun to play - yes. Balanced in regard to other classes in the same role - not even close 
 

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:25 PM by HardStuckBronze.2439
I also take stagnation on my second weapon so I’m doing an AOE cripple to prevent them from wandering too far

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

35 minutes ago, HardStuckBronze.2439 said:

Quite often I’m combining judges intervention with advancing strike while I have quickness. I can port in on someone from 1200 range while they are fighting someone else, immobilize them, blind them, and dish out 10K+ damage before they even realize what happened. 
 

Okay. They were fighting someone else, and youre a roamer. They either expect you or they're in trouble, they can see wb is in the match. 

Quote

During this whole burst I have 100% crit chance, 8-10 stacks of might, fury, resolution, swiftness, light aura. They are immob, slow, blind, and weakened for good measure. 
 

If by some freak chance that completely stacked opener doesn’t work out I have tons of movement skills left to either stick to them and finish the job or kite away only to repeat the entire process again in < 30 seconds. 
 

If I really get into trouble my F3 is a stunbreak & port. It also gives 4 stacks of stab, multiple aegis, protection, resolution, resistance, & swiftness on a 25 sec cd.
 

I also have a third dodge in the form of my F2 that gives boons, removes conditions including immob and is yet another movement skill. 
 

 

Yes.

Quote

How a guard main @Supernova Starr.2069 even keeps a straight face while saying this is balanced is beyond me. Name one other roamer / dps with this stacked of a kit.  Is it fun to play - yes. Balanced in regard to other classes in the same role - not even close 

This is the problem.  Either you accept this as the foundation and stop nuking other classes away from approaching it or admit it's an outlier and adjust it appropriately. 

 

[HardStuckBronze.2439]

27 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Either you accept this as the foundation and stop nuking other classes away from approaching it or admit it's an outlier and adjust it appropriately. 

Is there really a choice here?
 

Option 1: adjust the other classes… Do you really want every character running around with multiple aegis, prot, resol, resistance, fury, swiftness, quickness while being super mobile and able to burst you down in a second before fleeing away to do it again seconds later?
 

Option 2: Admit that guardian is a class carried by boons and overstacked kits. The class has always been in a good spot and is the most Noob friendly class for PvP. I would argue they took it too far when they then added mobility on par with thief. If you nerfed the mobility fewer people would hate willbender.

Guard in general is far too good and forgiving when considering how easy it is to play.

[Supernova Starr.2069]

50 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This is the problem.  Either you accept this as the foundation and stop nuking other classes away from approaching it or admit it's an outlier and adjust it appropriately. 

There's no telling if people getting face rolled by WB aren't getting 100-0 by less conventional "mid builds", imo this is real data that keep WB immune to nerfs, despite what you already said. xd

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

31 minutes ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

There's no telling if people getting face rolled by WB aren't getting 100-0 by less conventional "mid builds", imo this is real data that keep WB immune to nerfs, despite what you already said. xd

Nothings immune to nerfs.

All that matters is how annoying it is.  💀🥃

As it stands right now that is.  If you haven't noticed the balance doesn't have a foundation for skill issues.

Edited Wednesday at 10:16 PM by Azure The Heartless.3261

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 9/16/2024 at 2:52 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

Apparently the new Storm-whatever relic has no ICD (despite saying it should), which inflates WB damage significantly.

It's clear that WB needs serious nerfs. Every fight is a two-stage gauntlet of "survive the 10k+ burst while they have every boon in the game and 5 teleports".

And you won't see nerfs any time soon since the 2 primary people responsible for balance are playing guardian.

[HardStuckBronze.2439]

57 minutes ago, MedievalThings.5417 said:

And you won't see nerfs any time soon since the 2 primary people responsible for balance are playing guardian.

You know maybe it’s a good thing guard exists in its current state. If I were to ever have a stroke and find myself in a vegetative state at least I could still be a P1 guard main. 

[Supernova Starr.2069]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Nothings immune to nerfs.

Stealth is xd

[BadxDog.1584]

The current skills and balance team show there's no vision to the classes or gameplay.   If there is  a "vision" they don't care about balance because favoritism , they wanna eat grape ice cream today, if they grow tired of it they will get rid of the grape icecream and eat the cherry instead.    what a clown car we are all on. 🤠

[Saiyan.1704]

11 hours ago, Captain Crapface.7528 said:

I'd be happy to see it stay a threat, its supposed to be high risk, high reward, assasin.

I just want the stick and the carrot to be applied equally amongst classes, which in general doesn't seem to be the case.

This post needs to be sticky'd.

All I want is my damage + Spear#5's CC to remain the same. They could 100% remove the boon and healing Spear gives and I'd be perfectly happy.

Edited Thursday at 03:22 AM by Saiyan.1704

[bethekey.8314]

What currently counters WB that isn't also OP?

[HardStuckBronze.2439]

9 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Personally I think Herald, the current state, is one of the most balanced in its slot in terms of effort to play, risk, and punishment for mistakes. The only reason it does not get used more (IMO) is that there are easier OR less risky virsions.. and not by small margins.

100% agree. Herald is probably my most played class with vindi, DH and willbender following closely. I think Herald is a great example of where the balance should be. You have all the tools to do well but there are definitely hard counters to it. 
 

However when I pick up willbender or dragon hunter its like being given a significant handicap. I can take risks that should get me killed on a class like herald but I can get away with it easily because I’m on guard.
 

Im not stating that I think guard needs a nerf because I have trouble fighting against them. I’m saying it because I play it and difference in skill required for me to play willbender at a high level v herald is not even comparable. 

[HardStuckBronze.2439]

9 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

What currently counters WB that isn't also OP?

@bethekey.8314 No one build hard counters willbender imo there are duelists that can easily survive them. As far as team fight builds I find Dragon Hunter to be a favorable match up against willbender. 
 

I take the buffed F3 (bulwark) + renewed focus. You can just sit there and face tank their burst all match while counter pressuring them. I highly recommend spear + soaring devastation (for the 3 sec immob) on DH

[Myror.7521]

What If im a Warrior Main and saying that Guardian is not OP? 

 

Peops tend to not understand how the (or their own) Builds work. This leads into "these whole class/e-spec is OP" threats. This is now also happening to Guardian.

In my eyes the Problem here is not spear. Its the comb between spear/Willbender/new relic that makes it broken DMG wise ^^. The solution would be to just take a CD on the said relic and the whole build would do ways less dmg straight up

[Kuya.6495]

36 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

What currently counters WB that isn't also OP?

Rifle deadeye, but I assume a lot of people would call that build OP too because it's annoying to fight. 

[Myror.7521]

@bethekey.8314 another thingy would be ....... experience..... cause you kinda need to wait the Willbender to waste his skills to do their dmg Rotation and then punish them for doing so 

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, HardStuckBronze.2439 said:

As far as team fight builds I find Dragon Hunter to be a favorable match up against willbender. 

Counter Guard with Guard, got it.

47 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Rifle deadeye, but I assume a lot of people would call that build OP too because it's annoying to fight. 

Not everyone has permanent stealth/teleport.

33 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@bethekey.8314 another thingy would be ....... experience..... cause you kinda need to wait the Willbender to waste his skills to do their dmg Rotation and then punish them for doing so 

My question assumes equal skill, sorry. It's pointless otherwise.

[WingSwipe.3084]

14 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I agree! But I'm trying to be reasonable and make concessions where I think concessions can be made. I think solar storm is telegraphed enough to make its damage justified but I also understand the mob wants blood and something will have to be nerfed to satisfy them. I would rather nerf something on the kit that still keeps spear willbender viable albeit less of a threat in team fights.

All we wanted for warrior spear as well. We wanted SPB to have its effectiveness reduced so Warrior spear could remain a good weapon for the entire profession. 

We got spear and staff nerfs instead, gutting spear and staff nerfs. This is also while Zerker, BSW and Core warrior languishes on the PvP scene.

Now we are looking at the same standard not being upheld for Guardian. This is why im pissed off at least. "Rules for thee, not for me".