Deadeye Specialization Updates for the Path of Fire Launch

[Cave Rock.4869]

@Karl McLain.5604 said:Hiya scoundrels!With the launch of Path of Fire coming up quick, here are the changes (excluding core/daredevil updates) you'll be seeing for the upcoming Deadeye specialization.

• Death's Retreat: Fixed a bug that prevented this trait from working with Assassin's Reward and Lead Attacks
• Rifle: Fixed an issue where rifle skills could not be reflected properly
• Spotter Shot: Changed this animation from a hip shot to an aimed shot animation.
• Deadeye's Mark: Fixed a bad interaction with Hidden Thief that allowed mark to be canceled in order to grant stealth.
• Three-Round-Burst (Kneeling): Reduced damage by about 16%

For the most part, it's just bug fixes. We did feel that there was a more negative push with Three-Round-Burst in that pressing Death's Judgement was a bad decision, so we ended up slightly lowering TRB's damage. We'll continue to keep an eye on this elite specialization, making changes and balance adjustments as necessary.

The Crystal Desert awaits. We'll see you there soon!

Hey Karl, thanks dude for the clarification on the reflection of projectiles.

Karl or others, I have a question about the term unblockable attack, what do those skills by pass in general?

[Cave Rock.4869]

@Cave Rock.4869 said:

@Karl McLain.5604 said:Hiya scoundrels!With the launch of Path of Fire coming up quick, here are the changes (excluding core/daredevil updates) you'll be seeing for the upcoming Deadeye specialization.

• Death's Retreat: Fixed a bug that prevented this trait from working with Assassin's Reward and Lead Attacks
• Rifle: Fixed an issue where rifle skills could not be reflected properly
• Spotter Shot: Changed this animation from a hip shot to an aimed shot animation.
• Deadeye's Mark: Fixed a bad interaction with Hidden Thief that allowed mark to be canceled in order to grant stealth.
• Three-Round-Burst (Kneeling): Reduced damage by about 16%

For the most part, it's just bug fixes. We did feel that there was a more negative push with Three-Round-Burst in that pressing Death's Judgement was a bad decision, so we ended up slightly lowering TRB's damage. We'll continue to keep an

eye

on this elite specialization, making changes and balance adjustments as necessary.

The Crystal Desert awaits. We'll see you there soon!

Hey Karl, thanks dude for the clarification on the reflection of projectiles.

Karl or others, I have a question about the term unblockable attack, what do those skills by pass in general?

Also Karl and the balance team thanks for listening to the community and iterating overtime with all the professions plus new elite specialisations.

[Thavie.5961]

@LazerusKI.7485 said:Thats kinda how i felt too, "why wait for my 4 when i can just spam 3 like i do on my pistols?"So before i say anything like "Deadeye is a dead class" i wait until i can really try it

Many people tried it in demo (including me), rifle was garbage even comparing to p/p. So be ready, just in case, ya know, nothing had change to the best. Oh wait, this what this post is about! They nerfed it even more ~

[Cave Rock.4869]

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:Hey Guys,

For reasons I don't understand, Karl's posts are not currently flagged as officially being "ArenaNet staff." However, I can assure you that Karl is 100% legitimate, and his posts do represent those of a staff member.

I tried a tweak and it still didn't add the ArenaNet red banner, so I'll be looking into this tomorrow. But in the meantime, Karl's the real deal. :+1:

It works now Gaile Gray.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

I'm not trying to be a smart kitten with this comment but I have to ask. Is our feedback really valued? I understand you guys read our comments but value is showed by action. I'm not saying you have to make us stupidly op to count as valuing our opinions but at least some give and take. I get the game philosophy of wanting us to use deaths judgement as our big damage ability and being incentivized to prioritize it. However, a lot of people shared our feedback of how bad steal feels with a cast time. It wasn't about being more powerful, just feeling bad. This is one example of how I feel like we are being listened to but not exactly valued. Ever hear the saying "why ask for my advice if you don't take it"? This is how I feel about giving constructive feedback. There were plenty of threads that were constructive and done the right way with some great ideas. Even the one about the indicator of when you're kneeling or not. The notes didn't represent any of the feedback we as a community provided with the hours of testing we provided. Thank you for the response regardless and taking personal time to explain your thoughts.

[Asur.9178]

@LazerusKI.7485 said:Thats kinda how i felt too, "why wait for my 4 when i can just spam 3 like i do on my pistols?"So before i say anything like "Deadeye is a dead class" i wait until i can really try it

The initiative cost and set-up cost of DJ is not worth it against any good player. You use it, you fuck up, only to die. Over the demo weekend, not a single DE could land their DJ on me, unless I was heavily invested in fighting someone else and had no evades/blocks/reflects up. That's how EASY it is to avoid it, even though the set-up requirement is absurdly high.

Let me ask you this: when a warrior uses gun flame (~0.4s cast time - AoE, Daze, Burning, ridiculously fast cast, and far less telegraphed compared to DJ), does all its other attacks go on a cooldown? No? It can still continue spamming its other skills? What's its cd?...that's what I thought.

Thief is not a class that is built for long fights. This is a core thief problem. You fuck up, you die.

[Alva.4590]

Three-Round-Burst (Kneeling): Reduced damage by about 16%Sure about this? I mean every other class being ranged still got mobility.Whilst Deadeye will have 0 mobility during kneeling. Imo if Deadeye should be played as sniper there should even be a chance of 1- shot kills (which it doesn't have even before reducing)sry to say this but nerfing damage is a bit odd for a sniper based class if you'd go by logic.Ever seen a sniper needing 2-3 shots to kill the target? I didn't xD

[Asur.9178]

@Glael.7643 said:Three-Round-Burst (Kneeling): Reduced damage by about 16%Sure about this? I mean every other class being ranged still got mobility.Whilst Deadeye will have 0 mobility during kneeling. Imo if Deadeye should be played as sniper there should even be a chance of 1- shot kills (which it doesn't have even before reducing)sry to say this but nerfing damage is a bit odd for a sniper based class if you'd go by logic.Ever seen a sniper needing 2-3 shots to kill the target? I didn't xD

You're better off playing a LB/GS Soulbeast. Trust me. The damage on them is absurdly high and comes out faster, while offering your more sustainability, along with stealth, cc, blocks, and more. Oh, and the cherry on top? They can hit you from 1700-1800 range while moving around.

[Warrost.4895]

@Glael.7643 said:Three-Round-Burst (Kneeling): Reduced damage by about 16%Sure about this? I mean every other class being ranged still got mobility.Whilst Deadeye will have 0 mobility during kneeling. Imo if Deadeye should be played as sniper there should even be a chance of 1- shot kills (which it doesn't have even before reducing)sry to say this but nerfing damage is a bit odd for a sniper based class if you'd go by logic.Ever seen a sniper needing 2-3 shots to kill the target? I didn't xD

That's the problem, the broken core mechanic, of the deadeye design.You sacrifice mobility and therefore you offer your surviving for the opportunity to "one-shot"(kill your target extremely fast).By nerfing the damage you are left with literally nothing.You have to sacrifice extremely much, and you would usual expect a high reward.But with all the projectile denial/reflect/destruction and those huge new and old gapeclosers, it is extremely high risk and underwhelming reward.

[YuiRS.8129]

3 Round Burst nerf was needed, but I do hope you guys will be able to figure out a way to make DE feel a bit smoother with the whole Kneel/Get Up mechanic.

[Gray.9041]

@Robert Gee.9246 said:

@"The Mechanic.3567" said:Hey ANET dev's,

im just curious as to why you didnt listen to the feedback you got from your players, or if you are planning on making the changes we have suggested (such as the movement cancels crouch suggestion) why keep us in the dark about it? let it be known you have heard our complaints and that for one reason or another you havent decided to change that yet. communication is key to good relationships and your tarnishing your relationship with your customers by suggesting that your listening to us with a beta, then not telling us why none of our suggestions made it into the first cut of refinements. honestly the whole spec feels clunky and unpolished. id at least like to hear that it was intentional for one reason or another.

So I was hesitating to respond to this since it's pretty late, but I think it's important for us to be clear on a few of these points.

Just want to say thanks for the response here, it's good to know your thoughts just so that we understand why changes were/weren't made, and it also helps us look at solutions with that in mind

• Cast time on Mark - Marking a target is intended as a commitment, and the added power of malice plus the refresh ability on kill afforded to Deadeye means that that some power balance needed to be made elsewhere.

would it not be possible to use cooldowns on this to keep the commitment aspect without having to add a clunky, interruptible cast? I know this could conflict with the "mark refreshing on cooldown", but maybe just having it not refresh fully would fix that (say, reducing cooldown 90%?)

• Moving Breaks Kneel - Kneel is intended to be a mode that requires forethought and planning, but we want to allow you to dodge roll when attacks come in. There are players that use doubletap to roll, so movement breaking kneel is not an option.

this is fair, and understandable.

• Malice Generation Rate - Speed of Malice generation is something that ties very closely with Deadeye's power. We'd like to watch it more before making changes to it.

on this topic - Three-round burst has been nerfed because it was overshadowing death's judgement. Has it been considered (and I suspect it has, but I'll ask anyway) that a large part of this is that Death's Judgement relies heavily on malice, which is generated slowly, while TRB is not nearly as malice-dependant, and so has a far more consistent DPS? might the often-requested retuning of malice generation have actually proven the solution to this issue? because as I see it, you've got a heavily malice-dependant skill which you want people to use as the main damage, but you also have the mechanics designed such that being at high/max malice is not a common thing. I suspect if malice generated faster, or if marks lasted longer, that DJ would be a much more used skill, but given how long it takes to get it to a decent point, it's no wonder people favour TRB.

[Arance.2698]

Thanks for the response, Robert. Your reasoning on each of these points makes sense, but, all the feedback for deadeye is making it clear that something is off with the spec. I haven't played enough to pass judgement on balance, but deadeye, even more than normal, is obviously teetering on the razor's edge. Stacking multiplying buffs is dangerous cause it turns a minor change of 1 into a major change of 10, and losing 16% on the main dps skill is very worrying. But more importantly than numbers, deadeye feels clunky to play, fiddly to line up, and frustrating to maintain. Mark and kneeling are pure set up skills that don't feel very fun to use because they have significant casting/animations, don't contribute any immediate damage or effect, and their real impact feels disconnected and hidden due to the huge delay of malice generation. Removing the cast on mark helps because even if it's not doing a damn thing for you now, at least it's not annoying to use up front. I completely understand your desire to keep it for balance, but you're likely going to have to toss it and eat your balance elsewhere because the feel is really bad right now. As for kneel, perhaps a compromise can be reached, and holding a movement direction for ~.5 seconds breaks kneel? (EDIT: Jump to break is probably the better idea.)

Still, when we're talking feel of the spec, malice really is the main subject here. Malice is frustrating because it feels like waiting until your character is able to start operating at full capacity. It comes off as less of a bonus and more a mandatory wait period before becoming effective. Acquire target, wait at least 10 seconds to be a real threat. Enemy dies? Wait 10 more. Switch targets? Wait 10 more. Recast mark? Wait 10 more. Spend 15 seconds fighting? Wait 10 more. On paper it might look like a smooth increase of the power curve, but to the player it's like waiting for the real fight to start. Malice should feel like the build up to beast mode, the climax that all our previous fighting was building to. Instead it feels like a jerky series of false starts, of praying for the stars to finally align because we lack any real control over them. That's really why people are asking for faster generation, or removing some of the resets, or slow stack decay. It's not dps greed, but because it feels like while everyone else is able to hit the ground running, we're stuck here waiting on the timer only to get the rug constantly pulled out from under us.

(Thinking on it, if it were up to me, I'd probably try an even more radical revamp of malice. Have it generated by hitting skills on the mark instead of a timer, greatly reduce or eliminate it's bonuses outside death's judgement, have it slow decay instead of instant reset, having death's judgement consume all stacks of malice on hit. Gives the player a sense of actively participating in it's generation, eliminating constant false starts, a goal it's building toward, and a climatic moment/skill that is the clearly defined reward for building it. Granted, that'd take a big rebalance of the spec to work with it, but it'd feel great.)

EDIT: Radical, pie-in-the-sky idea for Kneel. Make it an automatic effect that occurs when the deadeye stands still for ~1 second. Breaks on movement and other things. Seperate death's judgement to be the new 5 skill. Rewards immobility without tying your own foot down. An unrealistic ask I suppose, but fun to throw out there.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Robert Gee.9246 said:

@"The Mechanic.3567" said:Hey ANET dev's,

im just curious as to why you didnt listen to the feedback you got from your players, or if you are planning on making the changes we have suggested (such as the movement cancels crouch suggestion) why keep us in the dark about it? let it be known you have heard our complaints and that for one reason or another you havent decided to change that yet. communication is key to good relationships and your tarnishing your relationship with your customers by suggesting that your listening to us with a beta, then not telling us why none of our suggestions made it into the first cut of refinements. honestly the whole spec feels clunky and unpolished. id at least like to hear that it was intentional for one reason or another.

So I was hesitating to respond to this since it's pretty late, but I think it's important for us to be clear on a few of these points.

We do read a lot of the feedback on these forums, but

listening to feedback is not the same as acting on feedback

. Additionally

we do not have time to respond to every post on the forum

. I'm responding to this on my own time after work and the reason we've actually had time to respond today to your replies is because we are in a "calm before the storm" situation right before the game launches. I don't expect that we'll have nearly as much time after the 22nd.

I think we can all agree that communication is important, but we can't spend our time here promising you that we are listening when we should be working to improve the game.

Okay now that that's out of the way here are a few thoughts:

• Cast time on Mark - Marking a target is intended as a commitment, and the added power of malice plus the refresh ability on kill afforded to Deadeye means that that some power balance needed to be made elsewhere.
• Moving Breaks Kneel - Kneel is intended to be a mode that requires forethought and planning, but we want to allow you to dodge roll when attacks come in. There are players that use doubletap to roll, so movement breaking kneel is not an option.
• Malice Generation Rate - Speed of Malice generation is something that ties very closely with Deadeye's power. We'd like to watch it more before making changes to it.

There were just as many suggestions being loud about being able to press the jump button to break out of kneel instead of using the number five button again.

But you have to understand that we are going to be INCREDIBLY sour about this. You guys have had a long history with shagging thieves, which also includes completely ruining the fluidity of stealth attacks. And we ask for a few quality of life adjustments that goes ignored. t basically feels like you're telling us to deal with it.

[InvaGir.9158]

Is 'Scarlet's Kiss' sound bug has been fixed already?!I really want to play with this rifle this friday:P

[ZyniX.3589]

What if TRB applied mark or gave us 1 malice per shot hit.

[babazhook.6805]

Damage done per INI spent is always a core factor when balancing thief skills. It very much the equivalent of "How long should the ICD be on this skill" when it comes to other classes. The more damage/utility , the higher the cooldown.

As such the thief will tend to gravitate towards the weaponset that does the most damage (or utility) per INI. I think I can manage the lack of mobility in the DE rifle thief. I am just note sure yet of the INI costs of the various rifle skills. If there was a concern about the damage of DJ versus 3 round burst , then there has to be a valid reason why a thief would choose to expend ini on one over the other as they compete for the same INI pool. If three round burst is going to be less about damage versus Deaths judgement , I suggest it has to offer something else other then just that damage.

As example, given we do not have to worry about PI in the DE spec, it might offer a daze.

[Gray.9041]

@ZyniX.3589 said:What if TRB applied mark or gave us 1 malice per shot hit.

I'm not sure that'd help. from the original post, it seems that the issue is people are using TRB far more than DJ, which is why it got nerfed. giving malice on TRB wouldn't help.

having faster malice generation would help, since DJ is better at max malice but worse at low malice.

[Asur.9178]

@Gray.9041 said:

@ZyniX.3589 said:What if TRB applied mark or gave us 1 malice per shot hit.

I'm not sure that'd help. from the original post, it seems that the issue is people are using TRB far more than DJ, which is why it got nerfed. giving malice on TRB wouldn't help.

having faster malice generation

would

help, since DJ is better at max malice but worse at low malice.

The fact of the matter is, DJ relies far too heavily on malice and the set-up and cost required for it is simply not worth it. DJ is in fact effortless to dodge. Rifle's auto attack being pathetically weak also does NOT help its situation. As far as DPS goes, thief is the ONLY class in the game who needs strong AA to achieve viable DPS numbers because they cannot rotate skills endlessly as other classes can. Currently, a lb ranger hits extremely hard with its AA compared to rifle AA, and this comparison is also applicable with rifle engineer.

[DiRaven.3958]

What about "Jump breaks kneel"?

[kash.9213]

So we get a cast time on Mark because we lose all our helpful modifiers when the Marked target dies? The way DE is designed right now in a fight against other players at least I'm trying to cast everything as fast as possible, so I can dump everything as fast as possible, because all my stuff is running out as fast as possible. Not the methodical patient sniper I was expecting. I'm not trashing DE, I like it for the most part, but that reasoning is hard to accept for stop and go movement paired up with gogogo skills and utility.

[Gray.9041]

@Asur.9178 said:The fact of the matter is, DJ relies far too heavily on malice and the set-up and cost required for it is simply not worth it.

This, I would say, is the biggest take-away from this discussion so far. Nerfing Three-Round-Burst won't change the fact that Death's Judgement is far to reliant on Malice, which has its own issues. If the developers want us to use Death's Judgement as our primary damage on rifle, they need to make malice less painful to deal with. increase generation, extend the length of a mark, whatever. The reason people were favouring Three-Round-Burst wasn't because it was too good, it's because it was consistent.

[Spinex.3695]

Don't worry folks, this is an ever revolving product so watch for more changes in the future :)

[tnhalbertsma.7682]

@babazhook.6805 said:Damage done per INI spent is always a core factor when balancing thief skills. It very much the equivalent of "How long should the ICD be on this skill" when it comes to other classes. The more damage/utility , the higher the cooldown.

As such the thief will tend to gravitate towards the weaponset that does the most damage (or utility) per INI. I think I can manage the lack of mobility in the DE rifle thief. I am just note sure yet of the INI costs of the various rifle skills. If there was a concern about the damage of DJ versus 3 round burst , then there has to be a valid reason why a thief would choose to expend ini on one over the other as they compete for the same INI pool. If three round burst is going to be less about damage versus Deaths judgement , I suggest it has to offer something else other then just that damage.

As example, given we do not have to worry about PI in the DE spec, it might offer a daze.

Or hey, how about Three Round Burst hitting a Marked target will add stack per bullet hit?

Edit: Oh, lol. Someone just said that.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

Maybe if they are lowering the damage they could make the rounds pierce? Add some aoe to the mix.

[chronometria.3708]

@Zalavaaris.5329 said:Maybe if they are lowering the damage they could make the rounds pierce? Add some aoe to the mix.

Was just thinking this. Coming from a longbow ranger and rifle warrior, I`m happy to lose piercing so long as I get a truckload of damage. If they start nerfing damage then really, they should be adding some piercing to make up for the shots that stray from the intended target.