So what are necros supposed to be good at?

[Agrippa.1693]

@"obcan.1470" said:PvE was not ruined. You still have reaper that still does 30k dps and nothing changed about that.Lol, this is just wrong on so many levels.Therefore I'm not going to feed this troll! And no-one should!For everyone else, check benchmarks and real statistics, it clearly states that the Necro is the worst class BY FAR in so many ways! It already was in raids and T4 fractals, now it officially has hit rock bottom. I.e. the second worst dps class would probably be the Renegade which will hit about 32K, or maybe still (the buffed) Deadeye with also

DPS. It's still at least 10% more than our DPS. Let's just not talk about the DPS gap between us Necros and what the Weaver is capable of; hint: still around

All this, not a problem in the world, if and only if we are absolute top in another important area: Say healing, utility, support, maybe even CC .... No ... we're mediocre at best in these areas, but most of the time: bottom-tier there as well! There's ABSOLUTELY nothing we excel at! And don't come with boon corruption or cleave, I'm talking about useful areas in endgame PvE. Because I'm really getting fed up about this, proving SO many times that you CAN split PvE from PvP and WvW, even stating it in the pre-posts of this particular balance patch, they just happen to forget to do it with the Necro ....Absolutely a joke!

[Dadnir.5038]

@"obcan.1470" said:Im done with arguing with you. Necro mains are delusional. What do you mean playing elementalist correctly? You mean celestial heal dps build in fractals? Do you even understand concept of competetiveness? Also if you think I only play ele for dps. Why do I play him in pvp? Because in pvp ele for sure isnt dps.

lol, you even assume that I am necro main. My first and favourite character is and will always be my mesmer. The reason that I'm more implicated in the necromancer's subforum is because I feel and know that the necromancer is probably the profession that need the most work in this game since launch. Just behind him come the ranger's pets.

You are sending this celestial thing whenever you want... Learn to play in an environment where you don't need to be competitive before trying to be competitive, that's what I meant. Obviously you don't want to learn the bases and just want to follow like a sheep the steps of others. That's what make you think falsely that necromancer is easier to play than elementalist. More skill don't mean better or harder. Despite what you think the necromancer is only short 5 skills in front of an elementalist, If a necromancer take lich form (as awfull as this transform skill can be, the necromancer have the exact same amont of skills than an elementalist.

You got issue with surviving as an elementalist. The necromancer's defense is just health point, while an elementalist have vigor, block, dodge on skill, invulnerability, load of sustain, protection movement skills and can still gear a bit of vitality. An elementalist that gear for survivability is unkillable and unkillable mean that you can hold a point in this PvP that is so important in your eyes. To be honest an elementalist who build for survivability can even just ignore a scourge.

The only real issue of the elementalist in PvP and thus since launch is that it struggle in glassy builds and this is frustrating for elementalists. The reason being that the elementalist need to spend time in PvP to survive which reduce the windows of opportunity for burst.

Since launch the necromancer have never been meta in PvE. Always despised and rejected. Since launch the elementalist have always been meta in PvE. Always sought out and praised. Obviously there were a few short lived exceptions but that's the naked truth.

Since launch the necromancer have been a roller coaster in PvP but on thing was sure the necromancer has always been the easy target to kill. The one that won't be able to flee and that you can easily counter. Scourge end up being oppressive, yes, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't something that you couldn't counter. Yes the necromancer have been meta in PvP, but did you even wonder why? Was it because it was good? No, the only reason the necromancer was meta was because it hard counter the boon meta and is the only one to do it.

The elementalist in PvP on it's side hovered between builds with huge sustain and nerf to these builds. Elementalists have dominated PvP as a meta profession for a long time in HoT. The only rant you can have about the elementalist in this game mode is that it's hard to hop out of the meta build and it hurt build diversity. It's hard for an elementalist to give up on it's sustain traitlines and thus it's hard to play a burst spec.

In WvW, ele as been meta the same way than necro has been meta since launch. We even had this slang to easily remember: GWEN (guardian, warrior, elementalist, necromancer).

And one last thing, I understand the meaning of competitiveness. That's why I can say that the elementalist is competitive and have always been while the necromancer isn't. The necromancer exist in PvP and WvW for a simple and single purpose and gimmick: Boon corruption. Does it make him competitive? No. Does it make him oppressive against a boon meta that player don't want to part with? Yes. Do that make necro player "bad" or "noob"? No.

The elementalist is not harder to play, he got it's own in built survivability mechanisms that are as good as the shroud as defensive mechanisms. The way you use them make you either a good player or a bad player.

[Axl.8924]

Eles have insane survivaiblity though.I mean you can change to earth get insta burst of stab and defensives then go out throw lightning bolts.Even then you have multiple ways to get a dash of speed.

If your dying:You got so many options too:Go to water heal up with your multiple abilities under tempest, or use that one ability you have to heal yourself to full.Plus:I found out that glyph of water is suggested and it helps a lot with conditions duration reduction.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

@ChenChilla.4652 said:maybe necro nerfs are coming next patch

FTFY.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"obcan.1470" said:Im done with arguing with you. Necro mains are delusional. What do you mean playing elementalist correctly? You mean celestial heal dps build in fractals? Do you even understand concept of competetiveness? Also if you think I only play ele for dps. Why do I play him in pvp? Because in pvp ele for sure isnt dps.

lol, you even assume that I am necro main. My first and favourite character is and will always be my mesmer. The reason that I'm more implicated in the necromancer's subforum is because I feel and know that the necromancer is probably the profession that need the most work in this game since launch. Just behind him come the ranger's pets.

You are sending this celestial thing whenever you want... Learn to play in an environment where you don't need to be competitive before trying to be competitive, that's what I meant. Obviously you don't want to learn the bases and just want to follow like a sheep the steps of others. That's what make you think falsely that necromancer is easier to play than elementalist. More skill don't mean better or harder. Despite what you think the necromancer is only short 5 skills in front of an elementalist, If a necromancer take lich form (as awfull as this transform skill can be, the necromancer have the exact same amont of skills than an elementalist.

You got issue with surviving as an elementalist. The necromancer's defense is just health point, while an elementalist have vigor, block, dodge on skill, invulnerability, load of sustain, protection movement skills and can still gear a bit of vitality. An elementalist that gear for survivability is unkillable and unkillable mean that you can hold a point in this PvP that is so important in your eyes. To be honest an elementalist who build for survivability can even just ignore a scourge.

The only real issue of the elementalist in PvP and thus since launch is that it struggle in glassy builds and this is frustrating for elementalists. The reason being that the elementalist need to spend time in PvP to survive which reduce the windows of opportunity for burst.

Since launch the necromancer have never been meta in PvE. Always despised and rejected. Since launch the elementalist have always been meta in PvE. Always sought out and praised. Obviously there were a few short lived exceptions but that's the naked truth.

Since launch the necromancer have been a roller coaster in PvP but on thing was sure the necromancer has always been the easy target to kill. The one that won't be able to flee and that you can easily counter. Scourge end up being oppressive, yes, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't something that you couldn't counter. Yes the necromancer have been meta in PvP, but did you even wonder why? Was it because it was good? No, the only reason the necromancer was meta was because it hard counter the boon meta and is the only one to do it.

The elementalist in PvP on it's side hovered between builds with huge sustain and nerf to these builds. Elementalists have dominated PvP as a meta profession for a long time in HoT. The only rant you can have about the elementalist in this game mode is that it's hard to hop out of the meta build and it hurt build diversity. It's hard for an elementalist to give up on it's sustain traitlines and thus it's hard to play a burst spec.

In WvW, ele as been meta the same way than necro has been meta since launch. We even had this slang to easily remember: GWEN (guardian, warrior, elementalist, necromancer).

And one last thing, I understand the meaning of competitiveness. That's why I can say that the elementalist is competitive and have always been while the necromancer isn't. The necromancer exist in PvP and WvW for a simple and single purpose and gimmick: Boon corruption. Does it make him competitive? No. Does it make him oppressive against a boon meta that player don't want to part with? Yes. Do that make necro player "bad" or "noob"? No.

The elementalist is not harder to play, he got it's own in built survivability mechanisms that are as good as the shroud as defensive mechanisms. The way you use them make you either a good player or a bad player.

Lets be real ele tools and necro tools are far from the same in = utility and defensive strength. Simply having more hp is no real sub. for hard blocks, a source of true stability, good regeneration and many more evades (accounting weaver, and base ele with such easy access to vigor or even invulnerability! All of which ele have twice or more times over. Its always ALWAYS going to be better to avoid damage than soak damage taken or reduce damage taken. Currently necro has no real tools that allow them to truely avoid damage taken. I dont count shroud because in many situations it can easily be bursted through honestly core shroud works is really just the first iteration of what we now know as the barrier mechanic.Shroud may be used as a damage reduction tool but its certainly no obsidian flesh, mist form, etc.

[Anchoku.8142]

Necro's are supposed to be good at downed state. The buff in 2013(?) ensured that by giving Necro's competitive downed state health instead of a reduced amount compared to other professions.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

@"Dragoth.7153" said:Warrior: Multiweapon class with decent dps, strong and unique support (boons and banners, hp and heavy armor.Berserker: Condi variant of warrior, with great condi dps and bursty feel.Spellbreaker: PvP focused "disabler" that really feels good.

Elementalist: Best DPS class with tons of skills and strong and unique support (boons and auras)Tempest: Support/dps/healer with even better acces to auras.Weaver: Fun to play mage class with ability to combine element. Greatest dps in game.

Revenant: Recently fixed multi-role warrior. Support/Healer and both condi and power DPSHerald: Unique boon support mechanic, great as power dps too. Accest to tons of boons.Renegade: Support/Condi DPS. Can be anything with really good efficency.

Guardian: Supportive paladin. Good DPS, Aegis mechanic, can carry newbs.Dragonhunter: Amazing DPS/Trapper with great power. Very good in endgame pve and pvp.Firebrand: Similar to renegade, it can be both support and dps. OP in PvP.

Ranger: Fun pet user class with great versatility. Unique boons(spirits), good power and condi dps.Druid: Best healer+support class in game, now probably similar to healing renegade/venatari. Acces to spirits makes him auto-included in endgame pve.Soulbeast: Very strong condi dps with some supportive abilities as well.

Mesmer: Illusionist mage with mobility skills. Mass invisibility and portals anyone? Class mechanic great in pvp.Chronomancer: So far best tank in game with very needed aclarity+quickness+aegis combo, makes him auto-included in endgame pve.Mirage: Strong DPS and great "feel" of class.

Engineer: Versatile gadget user. Can be realy anythingScraper: Now reworked, a tank with access to great party supportive/healing skills. Great in PvP.Holosmith: Amazing dps, fun to play, feels a bit easier than core engi.

Thief: Hit and Run dps with a lot of invisibility skills and amazing mobilityDaredevil: Meele dps with enhanced evasion. Great as condiDeadeye: Ranged focused power dps with some supportive abilities. Now boosted to be really good.

Necromancer: Outperformed in every way by other classes: Low dps, almost zero support. Necromancer-themed minions are just bad.Reaper: This class was never explained how should actually work. Promised as power dps, was a condi solo dps for years. Now its just a bad and slow power dps.Scourge: Target for all nerfs. Supposed to be support but its so bad that i lack words to describe it. Doesn't deal dmg too.

Bandaid fixes:Core necro: Enhance all corruption skills to be twice as effective. Other classes have access to stronger condi utilites and our corruptions deals dmg to ourself and are worse in most cases. They should be enchanced by 200% minimum.Rework Minions. Make F2-F5 skills that will enhance their skills/heal them using our life force.Add a minion, pernament or summonable with Life Force.

Reaper: If its meant to be power dps it should get higher numbers than Deadeye now. Ranged weapons always meant to deal less dmg than meele, because its harder to get to the enemy sometimes. Plus necro is really immobile, thus all reaper skills should be greatly enchanced. If Deadeye with suboptimal rotation can deal 31dps then reaper should do 34 minimum. Whats more, reaper should deal even more than meele thief because thief has superior mobility, allowing to close gaps,teleport to and from enemies and such. Reaper is a sitting duck so if he somehow gets to enemy, he should smash.

Scourge: Here. We have support/condi dps elites in form of Renegade and Firebrand. We have pure condi in form of Soulbeast and Mirage. We have full support in form of Cronomancer and Druid. Few exaplmes how to fix scourge:

• If it should be support/condi then dps should be equal to firebrand and mirage at their best. Supportive skills should generate full stacks of at least 4 different boons. On top of it, there should be 1-2 unique boons, synergised with Scourge. Boosting Vampiric Presence and scaling it with power does not help at all.
• If it meant to be pure support, then barrier generation should get some necro-unique enchancements. Make barrier convert to HP after decay (or 50% of it, 75% when traited?). Make insta-kill raidboss skills deal 100% HP dmg, thus making barrier the way to survive them. Killing gorseval is easy with dps, surviving world eater with necro barrier could be funnier than button-mashing. Remove dps-increase traits. Give unique boons instead. Make Shade skills a god-tier in condi management. Rework F5, give us ability to channel our Life Force for permanent barrier party-wide. On top of that, scourge should generate might, fury, quickness, protection, renegeration and vigor. Replace elite skill with non-dmg support skill. Bring back condi removal in PvE.
• If devs could remember what they once said... (necro cant get dps because shroud give too much survivability...) scrap all that support kittens out of this class and make it pure condi dps. Scourge doesn't have shroud anymore so it should be able to deal dps equal to that of other condi dps (or even more, because it feels like necro should be condi-god).

FOR THE KITTEN SAKE, MAKE US GOOD IN AT LEAST ONE THING, MAKE THIS CLASS UNIQUE IN SOME WAY, I CAN SACRIFICE SHROUD SURVIVABILITY, HP POOL AND EPIDEMIC SKILL IN FAVOR OF BEING COMPARABLE TO OTHER CLASSES IN ENDGAME PVE. OR LOWER ALL DPS CHECKS ON RAIDBOSSES, FRACTAL BOSSES, WORLD BOSSES AND STORY BOSSES. INSTEAD REQUIRING 30KDPS FROM MOST OF THE PARTY, MAKE IT 10K. REMOVE FIGHT TIMERS. CHANGE THE GAME SO EVERYONE CAN HAVE FUN, NOT ONLY CHRONO+DRUID+DPS COMBO. AND SPLIT SKILLS BETWEEN PVP AND PVE.

I main necro for more than 5 years now. I dropped the game soon after i realised that my class is unwanted and instakicked from dungeons back in core game. I came back because reaper was promising. Dropped game again because it was nerfed hard in PvE (because of pvp/wvw players complains) useless in team pve content. A class witn no identity, power dps being better as condi and only when alone. Came back again to see that promised support-condi dps scourge only to be hit by nerfs soon after release (because of PvP/wvw players complains). And again and again. And once more. Scourge barely alive? Let's nerf MORE! It still moves? NERF!!! Old forgotten Scraper was reworked, necro dropped from trash tier to kitten tier. Time to leave the game, waiting for another elite class promise. To see how fun it will be in exp3 beta and how hard it will be nerfed soon after in PvE (because of PvP and WvW players complains).

This is so spot on and i cannot for the life of me understand how management at Anet allows this to go on and on and on! I keep holding out hope that somebody there actually has the intestinal fortitude and takes the moral high-ground and actually attempts to push for the fixes this class deserves more than any other class in the game. We have been directionless and any good we bring quickly gets nerfed, every new elite build bring core Necro further down the hole now to the point that scourge is only barely viable in certain niche areas. Power builds are horrible despite the many promises to fix them and certainly some have been tweaked but every fix sent our way has some damned hitch to it, like forcing you down an entire trait-line for one decent trait, or allowing us one viable weapon without a decent offhand, hell even horrible long range weapons.In 27 years of playing MMO's I've never seen one class so brutally botched patch after patch and year after year it's disgraceful.

[Cranky wo Coffee.5914]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

@"Dragoth.7153" said:Warrior: Multiweapon class with decent dps, strong and unique support (boons and banners, hp and heavy armor.Berserker: Condi variant of warrior, with great condi dps and bursty feel.Spellbreaker: PvP focused "disabler" that really feels good.

Elementalist: Best DPS class with tons of skills and strong and unique support (boons and auras)Tempest: Support/dps/healer with even better acces to auras.Weaver: Fun to play mage class with ability to combine element. Greatest dps in game.

Revenant: Recently fixed multi-role warrior. Support/Healer and both condi and power DPSHerald: Unique boon support mechanic, great as power dps too. Accest to tons of boons.Renegade: Support/Condi DPS. Can be anything with really good efficency.

Guardian: Supportive paladin. Good DPS, Aegis mechanic, can carry newbs.Dragonhunter: Amazing DPS/Trapper with great power. Very good in endgame pve and pvp.Firebrand: Similar to renegade, it can be both support and dps. OP in PvP.

Ranger: Fun pet user class with great versatility. Unique boons(spirits), good power and condi dps.Druid: Best healer+support class in game, now probably similar to healing renegade/venatari. Acces to spirits makes him auto-included in endgame pve.Soulbeast: Very strong condi dps with some supportive abilities as well.

Mesmer: Illusionist mage with mobility skills. Mass invisibility and portals anyone? Class mechanic great in pvp.Chronomancer: So far best tank in game with very needed aclarity+quickness+aegis combo, makes him auto-included in endgame pve.Mirage: Strong DPS and great "feel" of class.

Engineer: Versatile gadget user. Can be realy anythingScraper: Now reworked, a tank with access to great party supportive/healing skills. Great in PvP.Holosmith: Amazing dps, fun to play, feels a bit easier than core engi.

Thief: Hit and Run dps with a lot of invisibility skills and amazing mobilityDaredevil: Meele dps with enhanced evasion. Great as condiDeadeye: Ranged focused power dps with some supportive abilities. Now boosted to be really good.

Necromancer: Outperformed in every way by other classes: Low dps, almost zero support. Necromancer-themed minions are just bad.Reaper: This class was never explained how should actually work. Promised as power dps, was a condi solo dps for years. Now its just a bad and slow power dps.Scourge: Target for all nerfs. Supposed to be support but its so bad that i lack words to describe it. Doesn't deal dmg too.

B

andaid fixes:

Core necro: Enhance all corruption skills to be twice as effective. Other classes have access to stronger condi utilites and our corruptions deals dmg to ourself and are worse in most cases. They should be enchanced by 200% minimum.Rework Minions. Make F2-F5 skills that will enhance their skills/heal them using our life force.Add a minion, pernament or summonable with Life Force.

Reaper: If its meant to be power dps it should get higher numbers than Deadeye now. Ranged weapons always meant to deal less dmg than meele, because its harder to get to the enemy sometimes. Plus necro is really immobile, thus all reaper skills should be greatly enchanced. If Deadeye with suboptimal rotation can deal 31dps then reaper should do 34 minimum. Whats more, reaper should deal even more than meele thief because thief has superior mobility, allowing to close gaps,teleport to and from enemies and such. Reaper is a sitting duck so if he somehow gets to enemy, he should smash.

Scourge: Here. We have support/condi dps elites in form of Renegade and Firebrand. We have pure condi in form of Soulbeast and Mirage. We have full support in form of Cronomancer and Druid. Few exaplmes how to fix scourge:

• If it should be support/condi then dps should be equal to firebrand and mirage at their best. Supportive skills should generate full stacks of at least 4 different boons. On top of it, there should be 1-2 unique boons, synergised with Scourge. Boosting Vampiric Presence and scaling it with power does not help at all.
• If it meant to be pure support, then barrier generation should get some necro-unique enchancements. Make barrier convert to HP after decay (or 50% of it, 75% when traited?). Make insta-kill raidboss skills deal 100% HP dmg, thus making barrier the way to survive them. Killing gorseval is easy with dps, surviving world eater with necro barrier could be funnier than button-mashing. Remove dps-increase traits. Give unique boons instead. Make Shade skills a god-tier in condi management. Rework F5, give us ability to channel our Life Force for permanent barrier party-wide. On top of that, scourge should generate might, fury, quickness, protection, renegeration and vigor. Replace elite skill with non-dmg support skill. Bring back condi removal in PvE.
• If devs could remember what they once said... (necro cant get dps because shroud give too much survivability...) scrap all that support kittens out of this class and make it pure condi dps. Scourge doesn't have shroud anymore so it should be able to deal dps equal to that of other condi dps (or even more, because it feels like necro should be condi-god).

FOR THE KITTEN SAKE, MAKE US GOOD IN AT LEAST ONE THING, MAKE THIS CLASS UNIQUE IN SOME WAY, I CAN SACRIFICE SHROUD SURVIVABILITY, HP POOL AND EPIDEMIC SKILL IN FAVOR OF BEING COMPARABLE TO OTHER CLASSES IN ENDGAME PVE. OR LOWER ALL DPS CHECKS ON RAIDBOSSES, FRACTAL BOSSES, WORLD BOSSES AND STORY BOSSES. INSTEAD REQUIRING 30KDPS FROM MOST OF THE PARTY, MAKE IT 10K. REMOVE FIGHT TIMERS. CHANGE THE GAME SO EVERYONE CAN HAVE FUN, NOT ONLY CHRONO+DRUID+DPS COMBO. AND SPLIT SKILLS BETWEEN PVP AND PVE.

I main necro for more than 5 years now. I dropped the game soon after i realised that my class is unwanted and instakicked from dungeons back in core game. I came back because reaper was promising. Dropped game again because it was nerfed hard in PvE (because of pvp/wvw players complains) useless in team pve content. A class witn no identity, power dps being better as condi and only when alone. Came back again to see that promised support-condi dps scourge only to be hit by nerfs soon after release (because of PvP/wvw players complains). And again and again. And once more. Scourge barely alive? Let's nerf MORE! It still moves? NERF!!! Old forgotten Scraper was reworked, necro dropped from trash tier to kitten tier. Time to leave the game, waiting for another elite class promise. To see how fun it will be in exp3 beta and how hard it will be nerfed soon after in PvE (because of PvP and WvW players complains).

This is so spot on and i cannot for the life of me understand how management at Anet allows this to go on and on and on! I keep holding out hope that somebody there actually has the intestinal fortitude and takes the moral high-ground and actually attempts to push for the fixes this class deserves more than any other class in the game. We have been directionless and any good we bring quickly gets nerfed, every new elite build bring core Necro further down the hole now to the point that scourge is only barely viable in certain niche areas. Power builds are horrible despite the many promises to fix them and certainly some have been tweaked but every fix sent our way has some damned hitch to it, like forcing you down an entire trait-line for one decent trait, or allowing us one viable weapon without a decent offhand, hell even horrible long range weapons.In 27 years of playing MMO's I've never seen one class so brutally botched patch after patch and year after year it's disgraceful.

This has to change, please listen to your playerbase Anet. We need help for the Necromancer Profession! 5 years of abuse is enough. Please give us competitive dps, support or utility.Gaile Gray.6029, Robert Gee.9246

[BobMctavish.7249]

for some reason, when we run in zergs in wvw, it's always the necros who die first, they might as well wear red shirts from starfleet