Dagger Problem

[Obtena.7952]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Jeez, we have weapons that aren't really good in ANY game mode.

Dagger mainhand being one of them. Which is why people want it to be buffed and why this thread was created. To discuss what should be done.

That's not true though so ... again, maybe you think it's relevant to ignore parts of the game to justify your thinking, but that doesn't make it true. Op was complaining about dagger in PVP/WVW as well ...

besides, this might seem outrageous to you but again ... Anet isn't balance to meta anywhere ... so why would anyone assume that 'not good in any game mode' is a relevant reason to buff it? THink about this ... what does Anet do with warrior? They have almost ALL the weapons, but there are just three game modes. So if every weapon needs to be good in every game mode, then each game mode need about ... 4-5 weapons to be good in each for warrior? That's just unrealistic ... that line of thinking falls right apart. That's not how weapons are changed. It can't be and it doesn't NEED to be. That would be a luxury in the best case, a nice to have in the worst.

You're whole argument assumes dagger needs to be a 'good' weapon (good in quotes because your metapushing) for SOME game mode. Assuming it's not good because it's not meta anywhere (which seems to be what you are saying), then I would say it doesn't ... The real assessment is that dagger has a reason to be and does it well. The question is not if dagger is good, but if that reason to be (or its concept) is useful.

This is really simple; dagger is a sustain weapon; it has the most LF regen, a direct life siphon and some kind of weird corrupting immobilize ... you tell me where that could POSSIBLY fit in the meta where competitive PVE is about long-term damage output and team sharing, where PVP/WVW is about burst damage, team sharing and CC. It doesn't, and nothing you could do with that weapon would ever make it fit 'good' in those game modes without reworking it completely right from the concept. Anet could do that, but despite you and others continued ignorance to it's usefulness in OW PVE, I find it hard to think of what Anet's motivation to do so would be.

So what if say they were to add, either via Quickening Thirst or directly, the ability to share the healing from Life Siphon with up to 5 nearby allies, emphasizing a healer type necro that has been encouraged through Blood Magic. Would you be against that idea?

Frankly, I don't think it makes sense to add permanent effects like the ones you mention to a weapon. Weapon skills are 'on demand', so something like "on hit, siphon life to people" would be more appropriate. Of course, I doubt that would make the weapon more desirable for the game modes you're interested in.

[Jinn Galen.2468]

@Obtena.7952 said:I highlighted the relevant part ... you have assumed Anet buffed those weapons because of PVP. You don't know that; a weapon getting buffed does not immediately imply it was because of PVP/WVW or even for reasons of performance. In fact, many changes are conceptual and if those changes result in good performance in a particular game mode, it's simply coincidental.

You got one part right here. It's not good to assume that axe got buffed strictly for PvP, I'll give you that. Then comes the question... why was it buffed? I'm sure as hell it wasn't for OW PvE. Anything works there. Wait... here it comes... maybe it was underperforming! But what is that nonsense I bolded in your comment: "A weapon getting buffed does not immediately imply it was for reasons of performance"? Wow... just wow. So why did they buff it then if it wasn't for performance? I'm pretty sure it was for performance. It's pretty much stated in the patch notes. I had to dig up the patch notes that improved axe. I started here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-October-18-2016. Anet pretty much states here " In addition to a couple of minor bug fixes, we wanted to improve the viability of necromancer power builds, which have been somewhat lacking in presence." Many changes are conceptual and good performance is just a bonus? Are you positive about this? I'm looking at patch notes. Most of them are geared towards resolving performance issues. When you say conceptual are you talking about thematics? Like if the skills, traits, weapons match the theme of the class? Doesn't seem like it to me. They do mind the theme and concept of the character but the end-goal seems to be performance.

@Obtena.7952 said:

Furthermore, what you like or dislike doesn't mean you don't have choice; you HAVE actually made a choice there; to purposefully exclude a relevant weapon from your repertoire. It's not a good choice, but you have made it.

I don't have a choice for a fast, consistent, but less burst melee weapon. Dagger should have been that but it isn't consistent. Nothing fits the criteria so i have nothing to choose from, hence, no choice except to change playstyle and either go with utility of staff, or cleave and slow burst of GS. Do you understand what build diversity is? I think that's what Anet is currently campaigning for with the current PvP/WvW splits.

[Obtena.7952]

@Jinn Galen.2468 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I highlighted the relevant part ... you have assumed Anet buffed those weapons because of PVP. You don't know that; a weapon getting buffed does not immediately imply it was because of PVP/WVW or

even for reasons of performance

.

In fact, many changes are conceptual

and if those changes result in good performance in a particular game mode, it's simply coincidental.

You got one part right here. It's not good to assume that axe got buffed strictly for PvP, I'll give you that. Then comes the question... why was it buffed? I'm sure as hell it wasn't for OW PvE.

that's easy ... Anet tells us why, it's in your example. I never said Anet doesn't buff things because they lack performance, but it's not a given that if a weapon lacks performance in a specific game mode, Anet needs to buff it. That's a different thing. Notice in your example ... Anet doesn't say they are buffing axe because it lacks damage ... in GAME MODE WHATEVER.

@Obtena.7952 said:

Furthermore, what you like or dislike doesn't mean you don't have choice; you HAVE actually made a choice there; to purposefully exclude a relevant weapon from your repertoire. It's not a good choice, but you have made it.

I don't have a choice for a fast, consistent, but less burst melee weapon. Dagger should have been that but it isn't consistent. Nothing fits the criteria so i have nothing to choose from, hence, no choice except to change playstyle and either go with utility of staff, or cleave and slow burst of GS. Do you understand what build diversity is? I think that's what Anet is currently campaigning for with the current PvP/WvW splits.

Then you don't have that option to begin with ... and that's not unreasonable at all. That doesn't mean you have no options for a good PVP/WVW build, it just means that the specific option you want isn't available. This isn't Burger King. You don't get it how you want. YOu don't get to define exactly what you want the class to be or do. That's unreasonable.

[Jinn Galen.2468]

@Obtena.7952 said:

that's easy ... Anet tells us why. Most of that history is buried in the old forums

Indeed. It is in the old forums. I just linked you one of the patch notes from the old forum and surprise, it states that Anet buffed a bunch of weapons, skills, traits, etc for PERFORMANCE while keeping the concept intact contrary to what you said about it being the other way around :)

@Obtena.7952 said:Then you don't have that option to begin with. That doesn't mean you have no options for a good PVP/WVW build. this isn't Burger King. You don't get it how you want.

I dunno about that mate. Anet IS promoting build diversity. Aaaaaaand using dagger for fast and consistent melee is a separate build/playstyle contributing to build diversity.

[Obtena.7952]

Build diversity doesn't mean you get any build you want to specify. Anet can promote and provide diversity in lots of ways and still have playstyles that aren't available for a class. Besides, while build diversity is nice, how much is really needed? I mean, optimal performance in this game is driven by optimal builds ... diversity on a very wide scale doesn't make much sense as a goal here. This is simply a case of thinking that you can marry lots of diversity into a narrow space of optimal builds. That's unrealistic.

You want to play a fast, consistent, but less burst melee weapon, in PVP/WVW. I don't get how that's NOT what a dagger provides you now. What do you even mean it's not 'consistent'? What change on dagger would add consistency to it so it would work for you?

[Jinn Galen.2468]

The only thing consistent about dagger is the AA. Dagger 2 has way too long of a cast time to justify it's benefits. Too easily interrupted and avoided with the stuff classes have now. It also depends on bleeds. This weapon doesn't give any bleed except for Dagger 3 which you need to then transfer. But transferring is a tactical move for necro. If I'm going to use 3 to bleed myself, then transfer the bleed to the enemy just to make 2 stronger, it better pay off. It simply does not. It's not consistent in it's role as power weapon in MH. I get that you think this is a life drain themed weapon. Cool. It does not need to deviate from that theme to be consistent with it's role. If it's destined to be a condi weapon. That's cool too. But it isn't consistent with that either.

[Anchoku.8142]

Obtena, your commentaries are filled with equivocation. I prefer to describe perceptions of game play and what I like, dislike, and wish for in the game. I also enjoy reading the same from everyone else. Please try being more direct by stating what you see in dagger and what you would like to see.

Here is an example:"I like dagger's rapid AA cycle and its cleave, no matter how small. However, its ability as a power weapon was tarnished by the self-bleed and it has fallen behind due creeping power and utility, especially when considering the channel and Dark Pact's long cast time, risk vs reward, and implied dependency on a subsequent skill use. MH dagger feels like it has less purpose as a power weapon than focus, yet it is not a good condi or utility weapon, either."

Simple statements like that get conversations going and people can argue their own perceptions and desires. It is better than arguing for argument's sake.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't see how #2 can't be fixed for consistency and maintain a reasonable life siphoning effect while maintaining counter play. Being inconsistent is, I believe, completely intended in that case, as life siphoning effects are rather valuable already.

As for the bleed bonus on #2, there is no shortage of bleeding going on in PVP/WVW and to be honest, it's a bonus; if dagger had a way to easily bleed, the whole premise that there is a bleed bonus on #2 would be superficial. It's not a bonus if you can reliably obtain it with so little thought or effort. No, dagger should not have a bleed application because of #2 bleed bonuses. Besides, you said it already; necro is not devoid of ways to apply bleed to get that bonus either. We know Anet is keen on counterplay ... all these things simply reinforce that.

I would also be really careful about classifying this as a 'power' weapon; it's certainly not intended to be a high DPS weapon ... if that was the case, we would see Anet incrementally improving its damage, just like they do for Axe every 6 months. Anet demonstrates patterns. If people recognize them, they can understand what things are meant to be ... and what they are not.

I agree that 3 leaves a bad taste in the mouth with the bleed corruption; if we have to eat a damage condition on a sustain weapon though ... that's the implementation I would prefer. Ideally, my preference is for no corruption at all; I don't even get why this makes sense to Anet. I think they really miscalculated the risk/reward of corruptions on Necro. Other than this, the effects it provides seem pretty appropriate.

Consistency is a rather elusive request anyways; you can say that about ANY skill you can dodge, block, interrupt, etc... again, we know Anet wants to provide counterplay, making things more consistent seems to me contradicts that.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Obtena, your commentaries are filled with equivocation. I prefer to describe perceptions of game play and what I like, dislike, and wish for in the game. I also enjoy reading the same from everyone else. Please try being more direct by stating what you see in dagger and what you would like to see.

Here is an example:"I like dagger's rapid AA cycle and its cleave, no matter how small. However, its ability as a power weapon was tarnished by the self-bleed and it has fallen behind due creeping power and utility, especially when considering the channel and Dark Pact's long cast time, risk vs reward, and implied dependency on a subsequent skill use. MH dagger feels like it has less purpose as a power weapon than focus, yet it is not a good condi or utility weapon, either."

Simple statements like that get conversations going and people can argue their own perceptions and desires. It is better than arguing for argument's sake.

I'm not sure that's entirely fair to say but if it's not clear what I'm saying, then a simple statement is in order:

Dagger could use a buff or a change, but not because it's bad in PVP/WvW. That matters because buffing it for the wrong reasons will result in crap. If you want to understand why I think that, you will have dive back into my posts. Personally, I prefer to explain my thinking.

[Dadnir.5038]

When I read some comment I have a feeling some player don't understand that the self bleed on #3 exist for the sole purpose of buffing the damage and healing of #2. #2 require a bleed on self not on the target.

[Obtena.7952]

The heal and the damage bonuses on #2 are dependent on whether you are bleeding or the target is bleeding, respectively. This seems a little silly on Anet's part.To be fair, it only takes 1 pulse of the heal to make up for the health lost from the complete duration of the bleed, assuming you don't have any condition duration/damage stats. Still, you take a risk doing so, which seems unnecessary if #2 is properly balanced in the first place.

[Scarran.9845]

For me I feel that Dagger main hand needs tweaking as currently it is not performing well to even be considered as a reasonable weapon choice for Necro in any game mode or build.

What I personally would do is get rid of the self harm bleed on Dagger 3, increase lf generation on AA, slightly increase its damage, add bleed(s) to the last chain of AA and lower the channel time on Dagger 2.

If I was throwing out crazy idea's I would completely change Dagger 3's function so that it applies a lesser version of the spellbreakers magebane tether...more so the function that allows you to pull enemies to you if they move beyond a certain range. Plus I wont even go into how useless Quickening Thirst trait is.

[Obtena.7952]

Does anyone actually HAVE some DPS stats to present to show dagger is this not reasonable weapon? Where does an optimized dagger setup actually sit for DPS? If these are the comparisons people want to use to justify dagger buffs, we better have some idea of what it actually is.

[Rym.1469]

Dagger is a good weapon which's problem is simply not keeping up with post-HoT powercreep. It used to be one of the most lethal autoattack-focused weapons in PvP, now it's just not. It was also used to trap people in wells, but immobilize was harder to remove.

One of the easiest buffs that do something is simply reducing cast time of Life Siphon by 0,5-1s.

Ultimately, as mentioned in an older thread on the same subject, I would like to see the weapon being centred around Life Siphon and synergies with it. Be it by reducing LS cd when using other skills, allowing it to heal nearby allies if target struck is immobilized, that sort of thing. Axe was very successfuly reworked into execute weapon, old dagger could use same lifting too, re-focusing on lifedrain theme.

[Jinn Galen.2468]

Dagger 2 could use a decrease in channel time similar to how long Axe 2 channel is which is 1.75 sec to 2 sec. Dagger 2 has shorter range, lower damage, and longer CD. It's a fair thing to ask and still keeps counterplay. It can still be dodged and interrupted easily. Dagger 3 could use a casting time decrease from 1 sec to 0.75 sec and a CD decrease from 25 to 17-20 sec.

I called MH dagger as a power weapon because it's what I see from it's stats. Most of it's damage comes from power. It is supplemented only by condi to trigger bonuses on Dagger 2.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Obtena.7952" said:Does anyone actually HAVE some DPS stats to present to show dagger is this not reasonable weapon? Where does an optimized dagger setup actually sit for DPS? If these are the comparisons people want to use to justify dagger buffs, we better have some idea of what it actually is.

At HoT release, dagger auto used to keep up with GS damages up to 50% health on your target. Since there have been no buff to dagger dps since then, it shouldn't have change much from this time. Now, GS and RS got some improvement in their dps since then and dagger got left behind making it a tools that does less damage than the greatsword and RS even in the first half of the fight.

What it need to compete against GS again is a level of damage which is close to that of the GS in the first half of the fight and a better LF gen than the greatsword. Note that this much could also be achieved by improving WH and/or focus dps via QoL change and/or sheer dps increase.

Effectively, if you want to take the QoL path, they need to improve dagger auto chain so that it complete itself in the same span than thief auto chain (which would be reasonnable), reduce spinal shiver cast time to 1/2 and change Reaper's touch so that it got a bounce priority toward foes intead of toward allies. As for the "number" increase, it would be more of a slight increase of damage on the 2 first dagger attacks of it's auto chain and a reduction in the width of the damage dealt by spinal shiver due to number of boons removed.

So ideally:

• make dagger auto attack smooth with damages closer for each strikes. (little to no impact in PvP/WvW)
• make reaper's touch into a skill that hit foes more reliably. (little to no impact on PvP/WvW)
• make spinal shiver a faster skill more user friendly that rely less on the number of boons removed to deal it's damage. (it should end feeling like a damage nerf in PvP/WvW and a damage buff in PvE with a gamewide QoL due to a shorter cast time which is needed since the skill just can't compete against all the boon corruption that the necromancer possess now.)

That would put an optimized dagger build close to an optimized GS build in the first half of the fight in PvE and make it an overall decent option in PvP/WvW. (and yes, it's ironic but the lack of decent option as a power off hand for the dagger main hand is a large part of what make dagger underpowered.)

[Obtena.7952]

I get that ... I'm wondering if someone actually has a DPS value to say "hey, we want to target a X increase". We keep talking like what we have now is unreasonable ... so what is that?

[Dadnir.5038]

Around 23k dps on static target when all stars align (full buff and debuff).

[Anchoku.8142]

Though dps is important, it is dagger's confusing purpose that feels like the real problem. Is it a power dps weapon with mediocre dps? Is it a hybrid weapon with its corruptions that does just a little condi? Maybe it is a power heal utility for a Scourge support build? Dagger seems to have crossed purposes.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Though dps is important, it is dagger's confusing purpose that feels like the real problem. Is it a power dps weapon with mediocre dps? Is it a hybrid weapon with its corruptions that does just a little condi? Maybe it is a power heal utility for a Scourge support build? Dagger seems to have crossed purposes.

Completely agree. Even if Dagger was acceptable damage, the things it does are not very effective strategies for the purposes people are stating to buff it. We all need to have a much better understanding of what people are actually asking for when they want necro buffs because just getting a buff does not ensure it's a better weapon. I could ask for a buff to make it a better RP weapon ... I'm pretty sure that would be a overwhelming dissatisfying change for most people. The same goes for people asking for PVP/WvW buffs. it's not the numbers that make this an undesirable PVP/WVW weapon .. it's the concept. Just jumping on the 'necro gets buffs = good" bandwagon is not an answer; we have to challenge the ideas that are presented.

[Lexan.5930]

Dagger 2 and 3 should be able to be cast while the target is behind you, so you can use them while retreating

Dagger focus could be a very good combo in PvP if the cast times and directions of focus were better. Focus 4 and 5 with reduced cast times amd bring able to cast them on targets behind you would allow a lot more options to kite and actually be mobile on the necro and not have to always face your target

[Obtena.7952]

You want to be able to target AND use skills by not facing opponents? Um, no. That's a L2P thing. Eliminating the need for facing is scrub level play. There have to be better solutions than that.

[Anchoku.8142]

A few minutes ago I was struck by the similarities between MH+OH dagger to staff.

• Power AA
• Little heal and damage on short CD
• Condition transfer
• Damaging condi
• Control condi

Maybe the daggers were meant to be utility weapons and I have been misinterpreting its use.

Dagger is one of our run-fast options, when traited, but staff has both range and more targeted AoE. Perhaps, daggers are supposed to be used as utility weapons versus purely power or condi dps tools.

[Swagg.9236]

Almost every "bad" weapon in GW2 is one bound entirely by the game's trashy targeting system (i.e. single-target weapons). The only ones that make it out of worthlessness are the ones who are more like 1-2 single skills rather than a real, engaging weapon (ranger longbow) or ones which deal unfair amounts of damage. I re-worked dagger into a mid-range cleave weapon for this reason.

[ZDragon.3046]

Honestly the auto attack is not that bad yes its not axe damage but axe has tons of modifiers on it that make it that good. Dagger has gotten no modifiers and the ones it does have are situation and clunky.Best thing they could do isAdd a vampiric leech hit to the 2nd and last hit of the auto chain.Actually rework the whole leaching system for necros specifically no more of this damage vs healing power nonsense. Give us a true leech based on a % of damage done.For each pulse of damage leech a % of that damage back as hp. (remove the if bleeding effect)Dagger 3 lower the cooldown make the cast time slightly shorter (Remove the self bleed)