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Future of scrapper plus vote on changes for core


Axl.8924
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So i wanted to start a discussion about what you would do to make scrapper viable and how would you fix it if you could.

Tell me for an example what you would do regarding spvp wvw and what you would change

I think if we can get the best of the best engineers here who are the best in spvp wvw, just maybe we can get ideas running that would help the elite spec in the long run, and may get positive changes.

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1: Fix some of the trait lines (adaptive armor)2: Fix the gyro bug(it's what makes scrapper unique and passive traits don't properly work if you can finish or rev someone) + (Cant even finish people off after the bug kicks in forced to cleave people off which sometimes is dumb.)3:Slightly tweak Hammer 2 duration to be a bit longer or better with field combo(Using hammer 5 and then Hammer 2 ONLY THROWS 1 bolt out)4:Scrapper Movement or walking design is weird.....(and seem slower paced then core/holo overall might re look into it?)

currently only 4 things i care to really see fixed/looked into im sure others have more to say.

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  1. something to make the hammer aa actually hit a moving target. a simple dodge of an enemy player is enough to create a distance in which the hammer aa doesnt hit anything anymore (or is it just me/my internet connection... like even with superspeed i have troubles to hit a necro)
  2. slightly speed up hammer 3 so its actually a gap closer.
  3. change something to those "1 stack of stability" traits (not just scrapper tho). with so many chain-cc's a single stack of stability is useless... strip that one stack with any cc and nail people down. with two stacks you get atleast a split second of immunity to things like revenant staff 5, mesmer tripple cc, thief quadrouple cc (because the second stack cannot be removed for the next 0.25-0.75sec if i remeber correctly). Alternatively make a player immune to CC for the next 0.25-0.75 sec after a stack of stability is removed, even if he hasnt got a second stack of stability.
  4. something with coeffitients ... scrapper lacks a lot of burst (since PoF and the newly introduced stronger e-specs ofc). scrapper might be the tanky specialization. but if you barely ever get a full glass canon build below 50%. again maybe just me and my builds
  5. condi cleanse is okay-ish. wouldnt hurt to get one more option scrapper/core only (it should fit into available builds somehow. too much already, eh?) .... holosmith is a machine tho.
  6. stomp/rez gyro. fix it !!
  7. elixir gun aa 150ish more base damage. QoL ... would be nice to do more dmg (2.5k power, 70% crit chance and 205% crit dmg) than regeneration can heal on a runaway profession. i mean guardians staff (full minstrel) does more dmg - staff is a support weapon "aswell" (comparing a kit to a weapon, yeah) and its aoe based and not a projectile (and also just 300 range now... anyway)
  8. core engi - dont know where to start. i dont see a way in buffing core without making any of the e-specs stronger

p.s. ideally i would love to get close to 30k dps in pve with scrapper aswell. because its one of the most appealing professions to me. but the list is already super long. and i dont expect gamebreaking changes anyway. or the opposite of dmg SINCE it is not a dps profession, make it worth to be supportive.

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@"Axl.8924" said:What about the condi cleanse issue? i heard scrappers have trouble vs condis.You wouldn't do anything about that?

naw they have a shitload of ways to clear condi and they get -20% condi rud from a trait-line once it's fixed....

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUncoCdpitpCubBsehF9jiuUP1XNshukKRMAqoLC

pretty base line what scrapper build SHOULD be after balance patch/fixes are done..... runes/amulet are toss up but mainly anything with boon duration and toughness give or take.

IMO for a class like scrapper dps shouldn't be the main focus point but how "supportive" they can be during team fights and how often they can finish downs with gyro/themselves to get the barrier to keep them alive as often as possible.

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  1. Fix all the damn bugs. Adaptive armor and function gyro are badly broken right now and are unusable for this reason. We can't even test their viability right now because of the bugginess.
  2. Change the gyro AI so that any aid gyro is fricking glued to the engineer and doesn't wander off for no frickin reason or because it's too slow. Blast gyro needs to be taught how to use stairs too. Shredder gyro needs improved functionality, but I'm not sure how to do that. Base gyro health also needs to be increased.
  3. Hammer needs a better gap closer or swiftness/superspeed built into it. Scrapper hammer has a very difficult time sticking to an enemy long enough to finish them, and core engineer lacks any gap closers.
  4. Up the base coefficients of hammer about 10%.
core engi - dont know where to start. i dont see a way in buffing core without making any of the e-specs stronger

Specifically to this, you'd have to have traits that grant bonuses the more kits you have on your bar (or something like advanced turrets which provides a unique buff per kit). Scrapper and holo generally try to avoid using too many kits, but core engi needs them. This would reinforce that core engineer uses kits primarily, and the e-specs only use them occasionally.

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@zoopop.5630 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:What about the condi cleanse issue? i heard scrappers have trouble vs condis.You wouldn't do anything about that?

naw they have a shitload of ways to clear condi and they get -20% condi rud from a trait-line once it's fixed....

pretty base line what scrapper build SHOULD be after balance patch/fixes are done..... runes/amulet are toss up but mainly anything with boon duration and toughness give or take.

IMO for a class like scrapper dps shouldn't be the main focus point but how "supportive" they can be during team fights and how often they can finish downs with gyro/themselves to get the barrier to keep them alive as often as possible.

Question:How much barrier can you place with scrapper? and what kind of cd you got?

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@Axl.8924 said:

@Axl.8924 said:What about the condi cleanse issue? i heard scrappers have trouble vs condis.You wouldn't do anything about that?

naw they have a shitload of ways to clear condi and they get -20% condi rud from a trait-line once it's fixed....

pretty base line what scrapper build SHOULD be after balance patch/fixes are done..... runes/amulet are toss up but mainly anything with boon duration and toughness give or take.

IMO for a class like scrapper dps shouldn't be the main focus point but how "supportive" they can be during team fights and how often they can finish downs with gyro/themselves to get the barrier to keep them alive as often as possible.

Question:How much barrier can you place with scrapper? and what kind of cd you got?

Answer will come once Adaptive armor isn't broken.

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I think i just found out why:1029 barrier and 20% condition reduction for a major grandmaster trait.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adaptive_Armor

The reason i found out, is because i looked it up.

With all those, i don't think that 1029 barrier will save you from being bursted down by a mesmer or a Deadeye, not if you get hit for 10-15k dmg instantly

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@"Axl.8924" said:I think i just found out why:1029 barrier and 20% condition reduction for a major grandmaster trait.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adaptive_Armor

The reason i found out, is because i looked it up.

With all those, i don't think that 1029 barrier will save you from being bursted down by a mesmer or a Deadeye, not if you get hit for 10-15k dmg instantly

you can get more with sage amulet

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@"Axl.8924" said:I think i just found out why:1029 barrier and 20% condition reduction for a major grandmaster trait.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adaptive_Armor

The reason i found out, is because i looked it up.

With all those, i don't think that 1029 barrier will save you from being bursted down by a mesmer or a Deadeye, not if you get hit for 10-15k dmg instantly

That's not the only issue with it though. Beyond poor scaling and low amounts, it procs inconsistently.

One of the most common signs of it being bugged is a permanent 1 barrier when you have it traited. This means it's not proccing any more, and you are permanently stuck with 1 barrier. It also doesn't seem to activate at the same rate as its ICD would seem to suggest.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

  1. Fix all the kitten bugs. Adaptive armor and function gyro are badly broken right now and are unusable for this reason. We can't even test their viability right now because of the bugginess.
  2. Change the gyro AI so that any aid gyro is fricking glued to the engineer and doesn't wander off for no frickin reason or because it's too slow. Blast gyro needs to be taught how to use stairs too. Shredder gyro needs improved functionality, but I'm not sure how to do that. Base gyro health also needs to be increased.
  3. Hammer needs a better gap closer or swiftness/superspeed built into it. Scrapper hammer has a very difficult time sticking to an enemy long enough to finish them, and core engineer lacks any gap closers.
  4. Up the base coefficients of hammer about 10%.
core engi - dont know where to start. i dont see a way in buffing core without making any of the e-specs stronger

Specifically to this, you'd have to have traits that grant bonuses the more kits you have on your bar (or something like advanced turrets which provides a unique buff per kit). Scrapper and holo generally try to avoid using too many kits, but core engi needs them. This would reinforce that core engineer uses kits primarily, and the e-specs only use them occasionally.

How far does the gyro wander off? does it return?

Anyone able to give info on shredder gyro?

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@"Axl.8924" said:

How far does the gyro wander off? does it return?

Anyone able to give info on shredder gyro?

Depends on the individual gyro.

  • For sneak gyro which has an effective range of 300, it is is extremely common for it to wander off or get lost. An engineer running at normal speed without swiftness can outpace the sneak gyro consistently. It absolutely cannot follow you off a ledge, so it takes the long route around, and sometimes it will wander over to nearby allies or flip out on uneven terrain.
  • Purge gyro will wander between random allies and "purge" a single condition at random. This behavior is annoying and unhelpful to the scrapper, and often results in the purge gyro wandering into danger zones for allies who are being focused down. Purge gyro also has no resistance or immunity to condition damage itself.
  • Bulwark gyro has an effective range of 600, so it's much harder for it to be ineffective. Typically, you can outrun it with superspeed or by jumping off ledges, where it has to take the long road around. Sometimes it'll freak out with uneven terrain, but the 600 range typically makes up for it. Bulwark is probably the least buggy gyro that follows you.
  • All 3 of these gyros struggle heavily if there's any lag between the server and client, and will start behaving erratically, going to places the server "thinks" the engineer is at. Additionally, all 3 of the gyros are not resistant to the things they protect the scrapper against.
  • I don't typically keep medic gyro up, as its main use is the initial heal and the cooldown doesn't start until the gyro dies. It also only has a radius of 240, which is even worse than the stealth gyro, and just as buggy behavior.
    • This needs to change so that the cooldown starts immediately upon use (and maybe bump the CD up to 25s) so that there's a reason to keep the medic gyro active. Its range should also be increased to 600 like bulwark gyro. This would also lend credence to Scrapper as a support tank.

Blast gyro and shredder don't follow the engineer, but their AI is also wonky:

  • Blast gyro is well-known to have issues with uneven terrain, particularly stairs. For some reason, it is prone to detonating far away from the actual target if it hits uneven terrain, instead of just acting like a projectile. It also takes the long road around to hit its target and cannot jump off ledges or hit targets on ledges above itself.
  • Shredder gyro is a stationary AI, so it's possibly the least buggy. You simply place it down within 600 range of the scrapper and it sits there, shredding away. The problem in this case is not its AI -- its behavior is not useful, as anybody with half a brain will move away from it, and the combo-field bolts it sends out rarely hit anybody. Imagine a ranger with whirling defense, only the ranger can't cancel the action, it can't move, and its damage is pathetic.
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It would be pretty useful if they were programmed to follow around people and purge condis and such, but perhaps that would be bad for the engineer? because he/she might want the purge gyro for themselves.To me it makes more sense that the engineer runs around areas full of people who have conditions, and having the gyro just cleanse condis while following the engineer who made it, same for sneak gyro.

The bulwark gyro depending on if its a offensive dps one, would make sense if it only aggros a enemy if its on your screen.I could imagine frustration of having a pet or something alike to wander off and be useless.

As for the shredder How would you make it useful? would you make it mobile? it might suffer from same issue of bugs as the others.

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@Axl.8924 said:It would be pretty useful if they were programmed to follow around people and purge condis and such, but perhaps that would be bad for the engineer? because he/she might want the purge gyro for themselves.To me it makes more sense that the engineer runs around areas full of people who have conditions, and having the gyro just cleanse condis while following the engineer who made it, same for sneak gyro.

The bulwark gyro depending on if its a offensive dps one, would make sense if it only aggros a enemy if its on your screen.I could imagine frustration of having a pet or something alike to wander off and be useless.

As for the shredder How would you make it useful? would you make it mobile? it might suffer from same issue of bugs as the others.

I think that all gyros which are supposed to follow the engineer should hover around the engineer's head, much like the function gyro does when it's off cooldown. They should be literally glued to the engineer and provide AoE benefits/buffs/cleanses/whatever. Some balancing might need to occur to adjust for this change, but overall I think it would be a smart move to eliminate most of their AI entirely.

As for shredder, I'd like it to follow a target much in the same way current gyros follow their engineer. This would provide pressure to keep the target moving, and would be kind of a fun mechanic to heckle people in a unique way. With 300-400 range for its attacks, it could be outmaneuvered, and would put pressure on people trying to nuke from a stationary position (scrapper struggles against ranged casters, for example). This would also have the effect of making it very useful in PvE.

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Change Minor Trait in scrapper line:

Impact Savant:Actual state: Barriers you receive are stronger (15%).This makes totaly no sence sinse scrapper line is the only trait line including any barriers on scrapper. Why not buff all barriers by 15% and replace this trait? Or make it to something powerful like:

Barriers you and your allies receive are stronger (600 range, 15%). This might make scrapper worth to be taken in WvW if it stacks.

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  • 5 months later...

Maybe a bit late to add something but I just created a scrapper again out of the blue and here is my look after not playing it since hot.

To be honest all gyros just die super quick and hardly last a few seconds since all this burst from pof....I find it especially funny that my bulwark gyro tanks dmg while I have barrier. Currently playing some hybrid support and if I could take a skill which gives aoe prot for 2 seconds I would take it over that abomination. In most cases it likes to fly directly into aoe and just die off a second later. The purge gyro likes to do this aswell. The only one that survives a bit is the stealth gryro not surprising since it's used to dissengage and not upclose as you are supposed to be as a scrapper.If those gyros where atleast a bit clever and position themselfs a bit behind me instead of circling around me and trying to get hit by everything but you know why should it tank the dmg for you when it just can get damaged directly.

Then "medical dispersion field" actually a intressting idea but why don't you let me share barrier aswell. It has the same intend and in this case this trait would actually really nicely synergize with scrapper.

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My Scrapper overhaul:

Function Gyro: You gain access to the Function Gyro which can be used to finish a foe, bolster or revive an ally at range.

"Function Gyro Charged" buff now reduces damage taken by all sources by 10%The ability to bolster a living ally added to the Function Gyro.Using Function Gyro on a targeted ally will order your gyro to their position instead, and apply "Overdrive"Overdrive, periodically gain quickness, superspeed, and barrier. Duration: 2s per pulse, 3 pulses, 2000 barrier per pulse.General Gyro Changes:

Gyros are being re-branded as a 10Target affecting WvW niche. Medic Gyro's healing, Bulwark's Watchful Eye, Blast Gyro's Explosion, Shredder Gyro's attacks, these all will affect either 10 allies or enemies.

Due to lack of incentive to keep Gyros alive, (pathing, A.I, longer cooldown), Gyros have been tweaked to be more reliable and never undesirable to be kept alive longer.

Cooldown of Gyros begins on activation, not death.Cooldown of Bulwark, Purge, Shredder, Medic increased to 25 seconds cooldown in all game modes.Maximum Gyro lifespan set to 15s for all.Hammer:

1.) Increased the range of the Hammer Auto-Attack from 130 to170

2.) Electro Whirl's reflecting effect activates immediately.

3.) Rocket Charge now evades for the entire animation instead of 3 miniature evades, added 3s of cripple per hit. Damage reduced by 20% to compensate.

4.) Shock shield now provides a barrier to allies as well as the Scrapper, the barrier for other allies would be stronger: appr. 400/pulse.

5.) Thunderclap now inflicts 3 vulnerability per pulse, up from 1.

Utility skills1.) Medic Gyro: Reconstruction Field instant to return to consistency with Defense Field.

2.) Medic Gyro: Heals in a 600 radius to be consistent with Bulwark's Watchful Eye buff.

3.) Purge Gyro: Removes conditions as a caster with 600 range instead of pathing to and booping allies.

4.) Chemical Field: In addition to its current effects, first pulse will also apply resistance to allies for 3 seconds.

4.) Shredder Gyro: No longer creates whirl finishers. Now, each strike from shredder gyro rends the protection boon from enemies, and applies 2 vulnerability for 6s

5.) Spare Capacitor: Dazes over the 4 pulses, daze duration reduced from 2s to .5s. Damage tripled, current damage is non-existent

Traits1.) Shocking Speed - Currently: Leap & Blast finishers in lightning fields applies 5 seconds of superspeed around you. New: All leap and blast finishers apply 2 seconds of Superspeed around you, internal cooldown removed.

2.) Expert Examination - Trait removed and replaced. New: High Performance Alloy - Activated Gyros take no damage for 3 seconds and grant protection to nearby allies. 3s Protection, 240 radius.

3.) Mass Momentum - Currently: Gain power based on your toughness, gain might when you have stability. New: No longer gain power.While under the effects of stability, you can no longer score glancing attacks, gain might.

4.) Final Salvo: Currently: Spawn a lightning field when a gyro is destroyed, granting Superspeed.New: Lightning field now mobile and centered around the Scrapper's position rather than where the Gyro dies.

5.) Applied force: Currently: Gain quickness when you gain might above the threshold. New: In addition to its current effects, while under the effects of quickness and past the 10 might threshold, gain 1s of Superspeed. 1s Interval.

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well here are a few buffs I would make:medic gyro f1 - reduce cd by 5s and make it instant castpurge gyro f1 - pulses 4 stacks of poison instead of 1, reduce cd by 10sshredder gyro - reduce cd by 5s make the attack duration 1srecovery matrix - barrier is applied to nearby allies as welldecisive renown - when gyro resses it applies buffs to 5 allies near it and you (so 10 total). maybe throw on 3s of quickness and stab.expert examination - put on 3s of slowimpact savant - barriers you apply are 20% strongeradaptive armor - make it a 5 person aoeapplied force - same deal 5 person aoerocket charge (ham3) - make the entire animation and evade 1.5selectro whirl (ham2) - up dmg by 30%

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The way gyros navigate the map seriously needs revisiting. I've lost track of how many gyros I just... Well lose because they've failed to ascend a set of stairs!

When deployed, they should be an animation the same as the function gyro a m d not present when undeployed. Stay with the engi and provide area buffs with fixed radius from the engineers position.

That alone would make a huge difference.

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Function Gyro : able to shock target (not downed) enemy, applying Daze, cripple and deal some minor damage. Function Gyros attack is affected by Explosive traits and applies on-crit effects.(So Scrappers get some more catching up potential and also works with condibuilds.)

Hammer : Slightly longer reach and slightly longer duration on reflect/evades.

Gyros : Just straight up buff every gyro by a bit (not talking about making them op), atleast until the AI is more reliable.If the AI doesnt get improved then its fair if the gyros gave greater effect when they actually work. Making it worth the gamble.

Thats my opinion!

Most of all i want to see Function Gyro able to attack a target!

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