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I wish LNHB was a category title.


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@Tarasicodissa.7084 said:There is exactly 0 luck involved in getting LNHB title. Also, nobody cares about it anymore because it's so easy to accomplish for seasoned fractal players so that even complete noobs can get carried through by good parties.

I recently got stuck in floor textures during Arkk fight. This title is mostly skill but luck factor considering endless game bugs and rng aspect of some mechanics is also important.

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@"Sister Saxifrage.7361" said:LNHB would be no less a measure of skill if it could be acquired in 3 parts: Skorvald, Artsariiv, and Arkk. The way it's implemented currently it requires as much luck as skill, which seems not quite right for a title that is the current gold standard for admission to skilled PUGs.

"In my experience, there is no such thing as luck"

  • Obi-Wan Kenobi

It's only luck if your skill isn't quite there yet. In really experienced groups, dying happens very rarely.

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No way, LNHB has nothing to do with luck. I had dozens of LNHB runs over the last months only interrupted by one /gg before Arkk to reset cooldowns and some additional runs where players asked not to /gg, we waited and got the clean kill. Usually a LNHB run is standard if you have everyone bringing his/her A gaming. Carrying bad players - which is possible btw. the title can be sold - is not an option.Btw. the title was harder to get at the beginning when people weren't that experienced, Arkk had major bugs plus he was harder. My static needed 5-8 days to get it in the end when we tried the title and not just aiming for finishing the fractal on our daily routine.Also the bugs are very rare and the stuck thing isn't a regular bug. Furthermore it means that you have failed a mechanic otherwise you wouldn't find yourself falling or rather being underneath the platform - even if it's just a little bit. You don't get stuck by playing properly!The correct use of the special action key alone should safe you in every situation. If you can't you're bad and you don't deserve the title. The only exception is the anomaly mechanic because it also depends on your mates (unless you're a top solo player).

No offense, but referring to your post in "The worst fractals ever" thread I think you really need some more weeks/months of CMs to get into routine or improve your gameplay.

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Also the bugs are very rare and the stuck thing isn't a regular bug. Furthermore it means that you have failed a mechanic otherwise you wouldn't find yourself falling or rather being underneath the platform - even if it's just a little bit. You don't get stuck by playing properly!

The game offers the way out from falling into the hole. However if it bugs it's not player's fault. Game mechanics assume you can fail and still give you escape route. If bug happens the whole purpose of LNHB being skill oriented title is destroyed by bad luck.

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I'm not talking about mechanics so much as dcs etc. It's pretty disappointing to come so close to getting it and lose it to someone's lag spike.

If you have the skill to beat each boss with no deaths, you have the skill - whether the title is earned in three phases or in a single run. Making it single run adds a luck requirement. It's easy to make light of that from the other side, but when you don't have the title yet it's very frustrating.

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@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:LNHB would be no less a measure of skill if it could be acquired in 3 parts: Skorvald, Artsariiv, and Arkk. The way it's implemented currently it requires as much luck as skill, which seems not quite right for a title that is the current gold standard for admission to skilled PUGs.

LNHB is pretty easy to get, since I had about 30kp I'd say at least 75% of my runs have had no party deaths. A few people have asked for no GG runs and we've always managed to help them out.

What really helps is having a good chrono who can block for you, and a good druid who is using bountiful maintenance oil, druid can take S&R trait and S&R utility. If you have a DH you can pop stability shout the final time you get back to the platform on skorvald when he starts the knockbacks or if you have weavers instead of DH but have SpB, he can drop the banner elite for the chrono to cast skill 2 for stability during signet of inspiration rotation, or the chrono can use well of precognition. That's the part that most people fail on, the rest is a lot easier because you get special action key.

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

Also the bugs are very rare and the stuck thing isn't a regular bug. Furthermore it means that you have failed a mechanic otherwise you wouldn't find yourself falling or rather being underneath the platform - even if it's just a little bit. You don't get stuck by playing properly!

The game offers the way out from falling into the hole. However if it bugs it's not player's fault. Game mechanics assume you can fail and still give you escape route. If bug happens the whole purpose of LNHB being skill oriented title is destroyed by bad luck.

This happens in how many runs? 1 out of 50? 1 out of 100? Haven't had a player stuck for a long time. Either way it doesn't determines LNHB to be a luck title. If you are not consistently getting your bosses down without a death the title is far from being deserved and only is a l2p issue.

@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:I don't really get how LNHB is sellable. There's such a high bar for personal responsibility, it seems like anyone capable of surviving everything is pretty much capable of beating it normally :/ I don't really raid but surely the raid versions are the same way.

Good groups are melting all the bosses. As a fifth player you can just watch out not to die a.k.a. play the mechanics without focussing on dps or other stuff. I don't know the actual comp for selling but it'll work with chrono, druid & 2 weavers. Also DH work which will give a lot of aegis (from chrono and the dh) plus druid healing so you should be overprotected as hell and only know how to move your char.

@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:I'm not talking about mechanics so much as dcs etc. It's pretty disappointing to come so close to getting it and lose it to someone's lag spike.

If you have the skill to beat each boss with no deaths, you have the skill - whether the title is earned in three phases or in a single run. Making it single run adds a luck requirement. It's easy to make light of that from the other side, but when you don't have the title yet it's very frustrating.

Lag spike shouldn't be an issue at all if it comes to the long run. You don't get the title during the first five times. You get it if everyone in your team is on point. Lag and bugs are just cheap excuses. Before I got the title we had 2 or 3 times someone failing the mechanics at 3% or less. One time I pugged I was responsible for not getting the title because I failed around the same percental number. Doesn't happen to me now.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

Also the bugs are very rare and the stuck thing isn't a regular bug. Furthermore it means that you have failed a mechanic otherwise you wouldn't find yourself falling or rather being underneath the platform - even if it's just a little bit. You don't get stuck by playing properly!

The game offers the way out from falling into the hole. However if it bugs it's not player's fault. Game mechanics assume you can fail and still give you escape route. If bug happens the whole purpose of LNHB being skill oriented title is destroyed by bad luck.

This happens in how many runs? 1 out of 50? 1 out of 100? Haven't had a player stuck for a long time. Either way it doesn't determines LNHB to be a luck title. If you are not consistently getting your bosses down without a death the title is far from being deserved and only is a l2p issue.

We can go back to this discussion once bugs are 100% eliminated. Until then, there's still luck factor involved.

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:I think LNHB was well done. Eternal is horrible and too easy.

They should make a no dieing achievement for every instance. Even W4 with all CMs activated and no deaths. That would be great.

People would buy every single one anyway, wasted effort.

But it would cost a lot, so maybe not. Dhuum CM is still about 3k gold from reputable sellers. Imagine how much a W5 no deaths or relogs with CMs would cost.

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@Malediktus.9250 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:I think LNHB was well done. Eternal is horrible and too easy.

They should make a no dieing achievement for every instance. Even W4 with all CMs activated and no deaths. That would be great.

People would buy every single one anyway, wasted effort.

But it would cost a lot, so maybe not. Dhuum CM is still about 3k gold from reputable sellers. Imagine how much a W5 no deaths or relogs with CMs would cost.

As long as people can buy it, there is 0 prestige anyway.

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:I think LNHB was well done. Eternal is horrible and too easy.

They should make a no dieing achievement for every instance. Even W4 with all CMs activated and no deaths. That would be great.

People would buy every single one anyway, wasted effort.

But it would cost a lot, so maybe not. Dhuum CM is still about 3k gold from reputable sellers. Imagine how much a W5 no deaths or relogs with CMs would cost.

As long as people can buy it, there is 0 prestige anyway.

As long as it is expensive it has prestige. People pay lots of money for IRL prestige also.

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:We can go back to this discussion once bugs are 100% eliminated. Until then, there's still luck factor involved.

No, it would be luck dependent if this particular bug has a significant occurrence. But this is not the case here. It's relative rare bug which - additionally - only happens if you fail an easy mechanic. So by playing properly and correctly this from you so called "luck factor" is eliminated. The impact is more little than little therefore claiming that the title is luck-based is ridiculous.

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@Malediktus.9250 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:I think LNHB was well done. Eternal is horrible and too easy.

They should make a no dieing achievement for every instance. Even W4 with all CMs activated and no deaths. That would be great.

People would buy every single one anyway, wasted effort.

But it would cost a lot, so maybe not. Dhuum CM is still about 3k gold from reputable sellers. Imagine how much a W5 no deaths or relogs with CMs would cost.

As long as people can buy it, there is 0 prestige anyway.

As long as it is expensive it has prestige. People pay lots of money for IRL prestige also.

Not at all. It is only prestige if spending money is part of the challenge. For this title money is used to skip the challenge invalidating whole purpose of the achievement.

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:I think LNHB was well done. Eternal is horrible and too easy.

They should make a no dieing achievement for every instance. Even W4 with all CMs activated and no deaths. That would be great.

People would buy every single one anyway, wasted effort.

But it would cost a lot, so maybe not. Dhuum CM is still about 3k gold from reputable sellers. Imagine how much a W5 no deaths or relogs with CMs would cost.

As long as people can buy it, there is 0 prestige anyway.

As long as it is expensive it has prestige. People pay lots of money for IRL prestige also.

Not at all. It is only prestige if spending money is part of the challenge. For this title money is used to skip the challenge invalidating whole purpose of the achievement.

There is no definition of the word prestige that means you need skill to earn prestige lol. It is just your wishful thinking. Prestige comes from the latin word praestigium and means a delusion or an illusion.

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@Malediktus.9250 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:I think LNHB was well done. Eternal is horrible and too easy.

They should make a no dieing achievement for every instance. Even W4 with all CMs activated and no deaths. That would be great.

People would buy every single one anyway, wasted effort.

But it would cost a lot, so maybe not. Dhuum CM is still about 3k gold from reputable sellers. Imagine how much a W5 no deaths or relogs with CMs would cost.

As long as people can buy it, there is 0 prestige anyway.

As long as it is expensive it has prestige. People pay lots of money for IRL prestige also.

Not at all. It is only prestige if spending money is part of the challenge. For this title money is used to skip the challenge invalidating whole purpose of the achievement.

There is no definition of the word prestige that means you need skill to earn prestige lol. It is just your wishful thinking. Prestige comes from the latin word praestigium and means a delusion or an illusion.

keep repeating this to yourself

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@"Malediktus.9250" said:I am taking the pure meaning of the word. Not what some "skill is everything" players make up.

I didn't say skill is everything. Read again, it's easy to understand. There are things that are intended to be "prestige for money" like legendaries or I'm rich you know title. However such titles like LNHB, Eternal etc are meant to be a reward for completing the content upon certain conditions, not to pay for it and skip the challenge. The fact that it's possible to directly buy such achievements removes all prestige from them, no matter how complicated your intellectual gymnastics is while justifying such fail in designing these achievements (or content itself).

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

There is no definition of the word prestige that means you need skill to earn prestige lol. It is just your wishful thinking. Prestige comes from the latin word praestigium and means a delusion or an illusion.

keep repeating this to yourself

If you guys want to argue about the meaning of words, you might consider joining:https://www.reddit.com/r/dictionary/

However, the main thing is: it doesn't matter what the dictionary says, it doesn't matter what you or I think... for the purposes of Leave No Hero Behind, it matters if enough people in the community think that having the title is important. Without asking everyone, we have to rely on proxies:

  • Do people use LNHB as kill proof or as a criterion for joining guilds, fractal groups, etc?
  • Do people display the title? Do they do so in higher or lower proportion to other titles that are similarly earned by a few people? (e.g. GW2/e shows 3.3% of players earning LNHB and 1% earning Fractal Savant, so do we see triple LNHB titles in Mistlock Observatory? or less? or more?)
  • How much do people charge (if anything) to run LNHB-guaranteed parties?
  • Do people argue about whether it's fair or a matter of luck to achieve it? (Clearly, if it didn't matter at all, folks wouldn't care about that.)
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