Phantasm amount reduction suggestions

[mortrialus.3062]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:I dont enjoy/play pvp. There is no reason to destroy pve build because it uses something that is op in pvp (and its balanced in pve). Its not true tuat only dps chrono use chronoplasma but also one variant of support chrono.

Also in pve (like twighlight oasis) players are complaining about visual clutter. Thats part of the design. If you spend some time in TO and are willing to learn its isnt overwhelming at all. Instead of complaining that we should remove stuff because it is too much visualy you should learn to play against it.

Mesmer is ilusion spec and it should confuse opponents

By this logic, Arenanet shouldn't have done anything about about those solo 100k dps Frost Gunner Reapers that were running around back in Heart of Thorns because nerf something when it's not effecting raids or PvP or WvW? Think about how much fun those Reapers were having that Arenanet ruined.

I am newer player but weren raids added after hot ?As i said i dobt play pvp because its not fun for me. It might be true that it is too much in pvp. I just said that sometimes the visuals are part of the fight.

And where were reapers doing 100k dps? If that was in boss fights than it was affecting raids. If it wasnt than that number says nothing. Weaver can easiky go to 80-100k dps opener even on a boss fight. If the fight is short it doesnt mean anything. Also if you fight more then one enemy you get more dps.

You are basicaly saying: i dont care about pve, "improve" my pvp.

I am saying: I dont care about pvp so dont ruin fun and diverse builds just because random player is screaming on a forum that it ilneeds to be nerfed.

In pve every 1000 dps matters so your changes will afect pve for sure (if you want to rework trait). Its much better to split and change numbers and not whole traits.

Frost Gun was a bundle players could equip that spammed chill on targets in a cone, like multiple pulses of chill a second. Reapers could use this gun to pulse absurd levels on bleed on targets with Bitter Chill. So much it the condi counter . Now since it was a bundle it could only be used in Dungeons and the Open world. It didn't effect raids or fractals or PvP and Reapers really liked running it, by your logic it shouldn't have been nerfed. Or maybe having tons of reapers running around with fire extinguishers just nuking heart of thorns meta events isn't healthy for the game, no matter how fun it is.

Another really fun thing thing in PvE and PvP was when a mesmer could instantly kill bosses and players with Decent into Madness, the fall damage Chaos Storm trait. That was a lot of fun, people were posting videos instantly killing Lupicus from Arah back when he was actually considered hard. They had WvW videos of them obliterating groups of players by just falling on them. It was a lot of fun for a lot of mesmers. And Arenanet stopped that.

It's not that I don't care about PvE. Quite the contrary. I raid quite frequently. I'm primarily a raider. I just also enjoy PvP as well. The current dream for balance is for every class to have one viable spec in group PvE and in sPvP. Every additional build that each class has after their first is frosting on the cake. Mesmers right now already have more viable specs in PvE than most other classes, some of which barely have one. If losing Chronophantasma would have just completely taken out the Mesmer class from and ruin all of their viable PvE specs, I'd have a lot more pause about radical changes to the trait and signet of the ether. But it's so unhealthy and toxic to PvP and we already have our cake and plenty of frosting in PvE.

Maybe, just maybe, Chronophantasma looks a little bit like those Mesmers instantly killing anything with Chaos Storm, even if you don't see it happen.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:I dont enjoy/play pvp. There is no reason to destroy pve build because it uses something that is op in pvp (and its balanced in pve). Its not true tuat only dps chrono use chronoplasma but also one variant of support chrono.

Also in pve (like twighlight oasis) players are complaining about visual clutter. Thats part of the design. If you spend some time in TO and are willing to learn its isnt overwhelming at all. Instead of complaining that we should remove stuff because it is too much visualy you should learn to play against it.

Mesmer is ilusion spec and it should confuse opponents

By this logic, Arenanet shouldn't have done anything about about those solo 100k dps Frost Gunner Reapers that were running around back in Heart of Thorns because nerf something when it's not effecting raids or PvP or WvW? Think about how much fun those Reapers were having that Arenanet ruined.

I am newer player but weren raids added after hot ?As i said i dobt play pvp because its not fun for me. It might be true that it is too much in pvp. I just said that sometimes the visuals are part of the fight.

And where were reapers doing 100k dps? If that was in boss fights than it was affecting raids. If it wasnt than that number says nothing. Weaver can easiky go to 80-100k dps opener even on a boss fight. If the fight is short it doesnt mean anything. Also if you fight more then one enemy you get more dps.

You are basicaly saying: i dont care about pve, "improve" my pvp.

I am saying: I dont care about pvp so dont ruin fun and diverse builds just because random player is screaming on a forum that it ilneeds to be nerfed.

In pve every 1000 dps matters so your changes will afect pve for sure (if you want to rework trait). Its much better to split and change numbers and not whole traits.

Frost Gun was a bundle players could equip that spammed chill on targets in a cone, like multiple pulses of chill a second. Reapers could use this gun to pulse absurd levels on bleed on targets with Bitter Chill. So much it the condi counter . Now since it was a bundle it could only be used in Dungeons and the Open world. It didn't effect raids or fractals or PvP and Reapers really liked running it, by your logic it shouldn't have been nerfed. Or maybe having tons of reapers running around with fire extinguishers just nuking heart of thorns meta events isn't healthy for the game, no matter how fun it is.

Another really fun thing thing in PvE and PvP was when a mesmer could instantly kill bosses and players with Decent into Madness, the fall damage Chaos Storm trait. That was a lot of fun, people were posting videos instantly killing Lupicus from Arah back when he was actually considered hard. They had WvW videos of them obliterating groups of players by just falling on them. It was a lot of fun for a lot of mesmers. And Arenanet stopped that.

It's not that I don't care about PvE. Quite the contrary. I raid quite frequently. I'm primarily a raider. I just also enjoy PvP as well. The current dream for balance is for every class to have one viable spec in group PvE and in sPvP. Every additional build that each class has after their first is frosting on the cake. Mesmers right now already have more viable specs in PvE than most other classes, some of which barely have one. If losing Chronophantasma would have just completely taken out the Mesmer class from and ruin all of their viable PvE specs, I'd have a lot more pause about radical changes to the trait and signet of the ether. But it's so unhealthy and toxic to PvP and we already have our cake and plenty of frosting in PvE.

Maybe, just maybe, Chronophantasma looks a little bit like those Mesmers instantly killing anything with Chaos Storm, even if you don't see it happen.

Well than its diferent than what i was saying. Frost gun wasnt afecting raids/fractals/pvp/wvw but so wasnt the fact that hey nerfed it. I am not saying that if something is fun AND op it shouldnt be nerfed. I am saying that if something is balanced (and fun) it shouldnt be nerfed/removed.

And curnetly no builds using chronoplasma/signet of ether are op in pve. Power mesmer is good but not OP and dueling boon chrono is slightly better on some bosses.

And reason why i main mesmer in pve is that i CAN switch builds between fights to get maximum from the class.

I dont know what build you enjoy in pvp but if it is balanced and was made unplayable because it uses one trait that is broken in fractals you wouldnt be pleased

[mortrialus.3062]

I dont know what build you enjoy in pvp but if it is balanced and was made unplayable because it uses one trait that is broken in fractals you wouldnt be pleased

I'd deal with it.

[apharma.3741]

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:...no longer giving phantasms boons and getting them back...Again this kills one of the pve support chrono builds.Also as you said this is way to complicated change and after that there can be new op stuff because there is no way how they can test all combinations.

Right now i dont know what is the reason of this disscusion anymore. Do you want to nerf damage or to remove visual "beauty"?

Considering getting boons back from phantasms is a relatively new change I don't consider that a valid argument especially when support chrono in PvE was already incredibly strong and likewise doesn't take illusions line, it wouldn't affect chrono's dominance in PvE. In PvP it wouldn't change the viability of support chrono because currently it's nowhere near strong enough to compete vs any other support class because the allied healing is garbage, if all's well that ends well had a better healing modifier that could be a game changer.

Beauty is subjective, I personally don't think having 2 mesmers vomit out 6 entities each with each one going puff into a cloud of butterflies every few seconds beautiful but I guess the people that like that must also like the new red AoE's being spewed all over by scourge too.

As for damage, it's about damage sources and investment for damage. If you get hit by a zerk ele meteor who is running fire, air and arcane or weaver it will hurt, it can easily 2 shot most people regardless of PvP, WvW or PvE balance however because they have taken all the damage increases over survivability it's fine because you can blow it up in 1 hit. Mesmer at the moment this isn't entirely true, you can pick 2 traits (arguably 1) and essentially go much more defensive with a single heal and put out a lot of damage which is hard to avoid onto someone.

Yes what I suggested would cause problems, there's also some potentially strong combinations like using illusionary leap to get quickness then cast the new eviscerate type skill while swapping reducing the cast time and essentially immobilising the target for a guaranteed hit. If it did damage even remotely close to eviscerate it would be strong but at this point you can numbers balance it, the current iteration of phantasms cannot be numbers balanced at the moment.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

I see GW2 as 3 games together: pve is diferent game then pve and both diferent then wvw. All i want is that changes in one gamemode dont have efect on other gamemodes. I dont know if mesmer is op in pvp. I know that alot of players here think so and they understand that mode more tgen me so i will belive them.

Its true that chrono would still be meta in pve but that is not my problem with this. My problem is that you chose to sacrifice diversity in one gamemode to balance the other. I know many players that never want to participate in wvw or pve so all this change would be for them is

"This was balanced but now you cannot play this because we said so"

[musu.9205]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill

straight up quadruple

their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait

straight up quadruple

quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma

is

balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple

ANY

ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage. PvE Power Chrono in is a gross aberration because one heal skill and one trait add about 12k DPS to the build. There is nothing else in the entire game where one trait and one heal with that much power loaded into it. It's like if Grace of the Land had an issue that combined with We He As One made them a better DPS build than a majority of damage orientated elite specs in the game. At the very least, you have to admit it's really weird.

I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live.

What are firebrand and renegade supposed to be? Because they can play suppor, and also play dps. And guardian in particular already has dragonhunter as a dps spec.I've never even heard of Renegade Support. Like Renegade has team based buffs, but those buffs are all damage orientated. It's like calling Condition Daredevil a support spec.

I've also never even heard of Firebrand running support outside of PvP. But Guardian's F2 and F3 skills are inherently designed to support allies. The core of guardian is built to inherently support allies. While dragonhunter is a selfish DPS spec, firebrand continuing with Guardian's inherent support isn't that weird.

Condi damage and power damage never compete in anet's eyes. The fact that mirage is a condi spec doesn't mean mesmer is covered dps-wise. The real reason for them to nerf power chrono would be so they can sell a dedicated power dps spec next expansion, like they did with tempest and condi reaper.Condi damage and power damage are always competing. There have been multiple statements across years of the game that power is suppsosed provide instant burst damage while condition damage is supposed to have higher sustained damage with more ramp. We had a patch a few months ago where almost all condition damage attacks had their intensity stacks halved and their duration doubled explicitly to give power damage and condition damage more clear niches and divides.

And a bit unrelated, how is chrono easier to play than most builds? It has some tricky timings, like y using CS during Ether's aftercast and you have to keep track of your Compounding Power and Finesse stacks, when there are builds that literally do little more than autoattack. It's not weaver, but don't act like you are purging the game of a brainless build.PvP Chronobunker is pure faceroll. I'm not talking about the PvE DPS version. Like yeah, with Chrono there's always some finesse with Continuum Split but that's about it.

Also don't play stupid. Chronophantasma is absolutely apart of the visual clutter because it doubles the length of time phantasms are around cluttering the screen.

So, it prolongs the problem by a a couple of seconds, but it's not the one creating it.It doubles the problem. And signet of the ether doubles it further.

I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play.

Removing options from pve is the exact opposite of fun.Sometimes things can be fun, AND unhealthy.

well i agree trait like cp is a balance nightmare , but i don't think you know much about pve .some of your argument are clearly misinformation .and again (in pve) dps chrono is entirely different from support chrono build , none build can do both , not even close . it's only balance issue when things like firebrand can do dps while provide support because their support tool is build into their f abilities it may cause less of a problem in pvp and pve , but it's a huge deal in wvw . for this very reason , i think you failed to understand why it's bad for some spec to have both support and dps and why chrono is not the case .And I don't think you know much about reading english because I never once equivocated Boonshare Chrono with Power DPS Chrono and made clear distinctions about which one I was talking about at any given time.and in all fairness the op chrono build (it's not op in high rank but still ) has nothing to do with support capability ,and let's be honest support chrono won't ever be viable in current meta .The Bunker Chrono is dominating the top 100 on EA and NA and at least one, sometimes two are on every team winning Automated Tournaments. "Not op in high rank" you don't know what you're talking about." And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage"that's a big nope,so don't make false argument .there are no such thing as to fall back on . Dune cloak is a trash trait . and i can tell you more than half of the dps builds are easier to play than chrono that includes all viable condi spec , holo, dragonhunter , gs power spellbreaker and deadeye. actually only weaver and offhand dagger spellbreaker(with full counter) are clearly harder to play , funny they are first and second dps in pve .

Duelling>Illusions>Mirage with Dunecloak gets about 31k dps. It would be a serious nerf, but it wouldn't delete the entire spec. DPS Chrono gets about 10-12k DPS just from Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether. It would struggle to break 21k dps without this one trait and heal skill. I'm starting to think you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about in PvE.

I wasn't talking about PvE DPS Chrono when I called it a faceroll spec. I was talking about PvP Bunker ChronoAgain, giving me serious concerns about your reading comprehension.

@musu.9205 said:and should i remind you guys , condition mirage is not viable in pvp . given mirage is clearly condition spec , if we stick with the argument "purity of purpose ". we can't have any viable build in pvp .follow same logic , we shouldn't even have viable pve build , so called support chrono relies on soi and gm trait in inspiration .dps chrono relies on cp , condition mirage relies on IH , none of them are exactly well designed or healthy .but can we not break something that's not broken at first place . you do have to consider anet has limited resource , unless they do full rework for all classes , creating more mess is far less desirable .

in an ideal world i would like to redo entire mirage spec , like no matter its viable or not ,attack while in dodge frame won't be healthy . the support capability from chrono tools is questionable . idefender is bad design . who ever thought a rng proc cc on AI with potential high aoe burst is sane ? iwarden is still trash , offhand pistol is still trash and staff 4 ,5 are trash , gs in general has worst skillset but it got nerfed and nerfed due to a single combo which is hardly problem in todays meta .

if you wanna offer suggest , please start with something more doable than creating more mess for a class like mesmer .

Carrion Ineptitude Mirage is still extremely potent and viable in PvP and there's still quite a few of them running around in platinum. It's no longer the undisputed king of Mesmer specs like it was before the rework, but it's still potent and you'd see more of them if Bunker Chrono wasn't taking up two spots on every team in every match in platinum. If you think Staff 4+5 is trash you aren't seeing what Chaos Bunker Chronos and Demo Mirages are doing with it and Persisting Memory. Greatsword mesmer's kit is bad for 1v1's but it's an excellent weapon for +1ers, which it's amazing at.

We can talk about problematic aspects Mirage, and you'd be fair to do so. Elusive Mind should absolutely be thrown out and reworked in particular. But it's not Mirage that's creeping every other class and specialization out of PvP right now. It's Bunker Chronomancer. And your "Ideal world" with a complete redo of mirage which would some how fix Chronomancer with one trait and one heal radically overperforming is literal nonsense.

Like lets work through your thought process here:

Completely rework Mirage, redesigning it's class mechanic, weapon skills, utility skills, art assets, spell effects all from the ground up. This process will take several months at minimum. Then run everything through QA and bug testers for months. Then release it to players and ensure that it performs up to task and make changes afterwords to fix it. This process will cost tens of thousands of dollars in man hours to complete. And this will fix Bunker Chronomancer in PvP. Somehow.

Or:

Fix one trait and one heal skill that are radically overperforming post rework, which still leaves Support Chronomancer and Conditon Mirage as top tier PvE specs so Mesmers still have a viable place in PvE.

Which of these is more of a mess for mesmer?

first of all , you should compare dps between builds with and without IH not compare dps between different builds .second , your own words :" I'm not talking about the PvE DPS version. Like yeah, with Chrono there's always some finesse with Continuum Split but that's about it." its far from" that's about it".third , mirage is better than bunker chrono , we will see that in mAT .you still ignore the main point i made , it doesn't have much support capability .hence the main problem is still the damage is too high on a "tanky"build .staff 4 and 5 are bad has nothing to do with opness of chaos chrono build, you do know that the chaos armor u gained from combo is different from staff 4 right ? .arguing about mesmer gs being good for +1 is quite odd ,there are no benefit for gs skills in team fight .if you want to say that in +1 situation , people might ignore gs 5 or gs3 cast animation , that's true for all weapon skills .

the rework for that one trait you talked about completely nuked chrono dps build for the reason u believed "one spec shouldn't have both dps and support build ".making cp into a trait that give phantasm second attack instead of summon another phantasms would be quite effective way to nerf bunker chrono build .or like i already said , make signet heal a shorter cd mimic for phantasm with 2 charges .

i was talking about game design flaw , and mirage is much worse than chrono for that . since you guys kept using “unhealthy ”gameplay . there are nothing healthy about mirage design to begin with . so i don't know why you can use such reason to say chrono shouldn't have dps build in pve . there is nothing good about new idefender design too . what i'm trying to say is so called healthy gameplay is not valid reason to nuke some fine build in pve . if you want to use that to justify your change , please , redo mirage first , and idefender and mesmer gs etc etc .i meant at this point ,so called healthy gameplay is luxury . if not , can you guys respect that fact people in pve do enjoy dps chrono which is nowhere close to op when you are trying to balance pvp .otherwise you will hear more and more people saying " go play some serious pvp game and leave gw2 alone "because that's as reasonable as your "chrono shouldnt have dps build "

also frost gun thing was a bug , and a cheesing gimmick , are we seriously comparing it with a build with functioning rotation involved more setup/buff/cd management than most dps builds .

[Allarius.5670]

The primary goal of the phantasm rework was to promote shatter use. Balancing SotE and Chronophatasma can continue in this vein.

Others had great suggestions for SotE earlier in the thread.

New active: "cleanse up to three conditions and gain a clone for each condition cleansed in this way". It would provide utility, a selfish and core alternative to the well heal, punishment themes (benefit from opponent actions), and additional clones to fuel shatters.

For Chronophatasma: "when your phantasms become clones gain a charge of Chronophatasma (max 3). The next time you shatter, convert charges of Chronophatasma into clones."

Make sure that Illusionary Reversion takes precedence such that charges would not be wasted.

This has a similar duplication theme, but stretches single phantasms into two clones each, fueling multiple shatters. The effect is time gated via shatters and clone limit, helping to alleviate excess visual noise by moving duplicate effects away from number unlimited phantasms to clones. Moving away from duplicate phantasms also remedies problematic interactions with boon synergies from Illusion traits.

It would allow rapid shatters, trading phantasm spam for shatter spam. The benefit here is that the trait provides free low impact fuel (clones) to empower multiple shatters, but it does not actually provide free shatters in the same way free phantasms were provided.

This would mean more alacrity in the short term by empowering multiple shatters, which in turn reduces shatter and phantasm cooldowns, and overall increases the pace for the build via shatter emphasis instead of phantasm emphasis. Ideally this still leads to an offensive chronomancer spec across gamemodes, an interesting mechanic to carry clones from fight to fight or target to target, and a more fully realised use for Shatter Storm as a way to rapidly generate clones by consuming charges at the beginning of a fight.

[musu.9205]

@apharma.3741 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:...no longer giving phantasms boons and getting them back...Again this kills one of the pve support chrono builds.Also as you said this is way to complicated change and after that there can be new op stuff because there is no way how they can test all combinations.

Right now i dont know what is the reason of this disscusion anymore. Do you want to nerf damage or to remove visual "beauty"?

Considering getting boons back from phantasms is a relatively new change I don't consider that a valid argument especially when support chrono in PvE was already incredibly strong and likewise doesn't take illusions line, it wouldn't affect chrono's dominance in PvE. In PvP it wouldn't change the viability of support chrono because currently it's nowhere near strong enough to compete vs any other support class because the allied healing is garbage, if all's well that ends well had a better healing modifier that could be a game changer.

Beauty is subjective, I personally don't think having 2 mesmers vomit out 6 entities each with each one going puff into a cloud of butterflies every few seconds beautiful but I guess the people that like that must also like the new red AoE's being spewed all over by scourge too.

As for damage, it's about damage sources and investment for damage. If you get hit by a zerk ele meteor who is running fire, air and arcane or weaver it will hurt, it can easily 2 shot most people regardless of PvP, WvW or PvE balance however because they have taken all the damage increases over survivability it's fine because you can blow it up in 1 hit. Mesmer at the moment this isn't entirely true, you can pick 2 traits (arguably 1) and essentially go much more defensive with a single heal and put out a lot of damage which is hard to avoid onto someone.

Yes what I suggested would cause problems, there's also some potentially strong combinations like using illusionary leap to get quickness then cast the new eviscerate type skill while swapping reducing the cast time and essentially immobilising the target for a guaranteed hit. If it did damage even remotely close to eviscerate it would be strong but at this point you can numbers balance it, the current iteration of phantasms cannot be numbers balanced at the moment.

if we are removing phantasm , we could just relocate more quickness into chrono trait line ,also instead of making current phantasm skills into boring weapon attack , we could make new skill mechanic with chain ability .that way we could easily adjust our traits .my idea would be : making every phantasm skills work like sort of mines but we plant it on target/targets from 900-1200 range . when we are close to target (450-600)we can active the mine and summon a clone .the second cast has no casting time but it should have delayed animation .

gs 4: something like samg spear attack from all direction .sword 5: mesmer teleport to target and an delayed illusion sword drops on target location(small aoe damage)torch 5:when active ,small buble will pop on target doing constantly burn for 3s ,daze everyone inside when it ends .focus 5 , can cast on multi targets , when active , mesmer will raise a axe storm around himself , axe will fly to target location piercing through foes .pistol 4: when active, target can't block ,it will do a delayed rapid fire.

downed skill 3: remove the current cd but add cd between mine and active . an illusion purple dagger will do attack animation from target back .

[musu.9205]

@"Allarius.5670" said:The primary goal of the phantasm rework was to promote shatter use. Balancing SotE and Chronophatasma can continue in this vein.

Others had great suggestions for SotE earlier in the thread.

New active: "cleanse up to three conditions and gain a clone for each condition cleansed in this way". It would provide utility, a selfish and core alternative to the well heal, punishment themes (benefit from opponent actions), and additional clones to fuel shatters.

For Chronophatasma: "when your phantasms become clones gain a charge of Chronophatasma (max 3). The next time you shatter, convert charges of Chronophatasma into clones."

Make sure that Illusionary Reversion takes precedence such that charges would not be wasted.

This has a similar duplication theme, but stretches single phantasms into two clones each, fueling multiple shatters. The effect is time gated via shatters and clone limit, helping to alleviate excess visual noise by moving duplicate effects away from number unlimited phantasms to clones. Moving away from duplicate phantasms also remedies problematic interactions with boon synergies from Illusion traits.

It would allow rapid shatters, trading phantasm spam for shatter spam. The benefit here is that the trait provides free low impact fuel (clones) to empower multiple shatters, but it does not actually provide free shatters in the same way free phantasms were provided.

This would mean more alacrity in the short term by empowering multiple shatters, which in turn reduces shatter and phantasm cooldowns, and overall increases the pace for the build via shatter emphasis instead of phantasm emphasis. Ideally this still leads to an offensive chronomancer spec across gamemodes, an interesting mechanic to carry clones from fight to fight or target to target, and a more fully realised use for Shatter Storm as a way to rapidly generate clones by consuming charges at the beginning of a fight.notewe dont need more rapid shatter tbh , we need reasonable sustain after change , also we need keep some of trait synergy .not all of them are op .shatter storm is already strong . mesmer don't need more burst(no class needs at this point ) , and we certainly dont lack clone generation anymore . giving easy way to pop out 3 clones one shoot combo is just making power mesmer more gimmick .

[OriOri.8724]

@apharma.3741 said:My Ideal change to address this would be removed phantasms entirely so there can only be 3 illusions active (+any that are marked to shatter) at any one time, this would satisfy most players problems with clutter and having multiple staggered damage sources to dodge. These skills would obviously still create a clone so as to keep current shatter rates etc.

This would need changes to the skills themselves but mostly they aren't too big.

Berserker: Buff the greatsword damage, remove phantasm, clone spawns at the max range the GS hits.Warlock: You do the channelled beam attack, then spawn a clone next to you.Swordsman: Make it similar to warriors eviscerate in style with a 5 target cleave, remove weird sword attack, you gain 15s might per target hit.Warden: Becomes a ground targeted AoE bubble that blocks projectiles, like a cross between lava font and whirling defence but toned down in damage and size and lasting 5s.Duellist: You use unload, really not that complex and you generate a clone next to you, can move while unloading.Mage: You do the AoE fire blast it currently does that also dazes.Rogue: Dunno tbh happy to look at suggestions but a daze and damage strike might be a thematic to mesmer.Echo of memory: Applies slow for 2.5s to any enemy hitting you, grants 2.5s protection and creates a clone when it ends. Flips over to Deja Vu which does the same.

Traits would need changing too but not too much.Imagined burden: GS skills recharge faster and remove a boon (additional boon to mindstab) maybe keep the cripple too but might become an overloaded trait tbh.Empowered illusions: Change name, removing a boon does damage, not as much as Loss Aversion because mesmer can do a lot of sustained stripping.Phantasmal fury: Summoning an illusion grants fury.Sympathetic visage: This is an issue, if you convert it to clones taking a condition it becomes OP with DE.Protected phantasms: Rename to protected clones, clones get aegis and protection on summon.Illusionary Inspiration: Change what it activates on, heal or distortion would be good candidates .Mental Defence: I never liked this as it's a passive trait, I'd love to see it redesign anyway maybe regen and vigor per clone shattered.Persistence of memory: Illusion skills have 20% reduced recharge.Phantasmal haste: Rename and you gain 2s quickness when summoning a clone using a weapon skill. Specifically clones from weapons only.Phantasmal force: Remove the phantasmal buffing effect, no longer needed as all attacks benefit from might now. Reduce it to 1 stack of might per clone summoned.Chronophantasma: Weapon skills that summon a clone summon 2 clones instead.

Then I would create a category of utility skills called Illusion skills which decoy, mirror images, illusionary disenchantment and illusionary defense fit into, called illusion skills to make sure there's no confusion with clone skills.

illusionary disenchantment: A bouncing attack that removes 1 boon for every illusion you have out (1-4 boons removed), deal damage per boon removed, 20s CD.illusionary defense: Block the next few attacks based on number of clones active, 1, 2, 3 or 4. Reduce recharge to 35s.

This also means that mesmers finally gain full benefits from % damage mods on runes and sigils, it also means traits can be more focused on might stacking and or damage modifying rather than weirdly buffing singular skills in a bunker build to do high damage. You can also do slightly better skill splits in PvE so these replaced skills do more damage (and now 16% more because force/scholar) with the possibility of having an all in on damage build being competitive with others in PvE. This also addresses issues with entity spam, boon spam (no longer giving phantasms boons and getting them back) and in some ways damage of certain skills being disproportionate to the investment in traits. Not much can be done about evade spam complaints but at least there will be less aegis on the mesmer too.

Lets face it though, they will just change chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether to address the issue but just thought I'd share what I'd love to see as a proper fix to all the current issues

Edit: Forgot to mention obviously cast times wouldn't be kept at 1s, they would be adjusted. I also refrained from putting numbers on damage because the idea was to have the class in a situation where it can be numbers balanced a bit better.

Seeing your idea written out in full does make me appreciate it more, but I still do not agree that this would necessarily make mesmer better. I don't think it would make mesmer any worse either.

Before removing phantasms completely, I would like to try one more, small, redesign on the concept as a whole. Phantasms would now inherit the mesmer's stats and traits. This way, personal damage modifiers would now be affecting all of our attacks (and iDefender would inherit any expertise we have, giving duration to his taunt), which is a pressing issue with phantasms for me.

Along with this, if this is even possible, I would want phantasms to inherit our boons as well. Technically I'm not sure how this could be implemented. Ideally they would just gain the benefit of our boons in real time, but realistically I think it would have to look more like they get a copy of each boon we have when they are summoned (just a guess about limitations of the engine). This would come with redoing quite a few of our traits concerning phantasms and boons. The following could honestly probably remain mostly the same, just be changed to give the boons to us, with re-balanced durations of course

• Protected Phantasms
• Phantasmal Haste
• Phantasmal Fury
• Phantasmal Haste

Persistence of Memory would have to be changed. And Illusionary Inspiration should also be changed, its really much too strong of an effect to get from summoning a phantasm, which can happen from traits no less. Phantasmal force could probably remain identical to what it is now. And of course, phantasm attacks would have to be rebalanced around this.

[OriOri.8724]

@"Allarius.5670" said:The primary goal of the phantasm rework was to promote shatter use. Balancing SotE and Chronophatasma can continue in this vein.

Others had great suggestions for SotE earlier in the thread.

New active: "cleanse up to three conditions and gain a clone for each condition cleansed in this way". It would provide utility, a selfish and core alternative to the well heal, punishment themes (benefit from opponent actions), and additional clones to fuel shatters.

For Chronophatasma: "when your phantasms become clones gain a charge of Chronophatasma (max 3). The next time you shatter, convert charges of Chronophatasma into clones."

Make sure that Illusionary Reversion takes precedence such that charges would not be wasted.

This has a similar duplication theme, but stretches single phantasms into two clones each, fueling multiple shatters. The effect is time gated via shatters and clone limit, helping to alleviate excess visual noise by moving duplicate effects away from number unlimited phantasms to clones. Moving away from duplicate phantasms also remedies problematic interactions with boon synergies from Illusion traits.

It would allow rapid shatters, trading phantasm spam for shatter spam. The benefit here is that the trait provides free low impact fuel (clones) to empower multiple shatters, but it does not actually provide free shatters in the same way free phantasms were provided.

This would mean more alacrity in the short term by empowering multiple shatters, which in turn reduces shatter and phantasm cooldowns, and overall increases the pace for the build via shatter emphasis instead of phantasm emphasis. Ideally this still leads to an offensive chronomancer spec across gamemodes, an interesting mechanic to carry clones from fight to fight or target to target, and a more fully realised use for Shatter Storm as a way to rapidly generate clones by consuming charges at the beginning of a fight.

I actually really love your idea for CP as a trait concept! People are going to be very hard pressed to agree to losing the second phantasm attack from CP though (I've had a hard enough time just arguing that getting the second phantasm attack was enough tradeoff to no longer get a clone out of it....), so maybe we shall save this idea for the next elite spec

[Allarius.5670]

@musu.9205

I don't know, the suggested mechanic might have enough wiggle room to allow shatters to also be a sustained damage source by the synergies outlined, albeit delivered in more frequent packets rather than continuously.

I don't feel qualified to comment on what synergies are or are not op, or whether or not they should be maintained on the same current level, I only recognise that some are considered problematic.

I agree that Shatter Storm is inherently strong, is considered problematic by Mesmer and non-Mesmer players, and could lead to more gimmicky burst issues with the proposed mechanic. Having said that, and considering the recognition of Shatter Storm's problematic design, it might be useful to throw on an internal cooldown between Mind Wracks anyway. With the proposed mechanic it could provide a large enough window to recognise threat, and without the proposed mechanic it leads to a better end design anyway.

@OriOri.8724

I'm not sold or commited to the idea, just something that came up and thought touched on the problem areas while still providing offensive build space. I do like your suggestion of just making phantasms persist for two attack cycles, though I'm not sure it provides enough to alleviate the problems outlined for PvP considering (1) the second hit of damage is still there and (2) phantasms are not capped.

Generally I don't envy the developers and think any answer is likely to be met with hostility from one group or another. I applaud you for your patience and creativity.

[OriOri.8724]

Oh that change definitely would not solve the current problems with the class right now. But its still a change that I think should be changed. I'm of the mind that very powerful traits should have tradeoffs, instead of straight up buffing something. Getting double useage out of every phantasm we summon is a very powerful trait, and in that regard I think the trait needs some tradeoff. Removing our ability to generate shatter fodder from phantasm skills is a pretty nice tradeoff imo. But it definitely is not geared at addressing the issues with the class, more so just at general trait design.

[eldenbri.1059]

Thanks to everyone who has suggested approaches. After thinking it through, I agree that making shield phantasm single use gives up too much for a pretty minimal reduction in clutter.

If you didn't see it yesterday, Ben from Anet made this comment in a thread yesterday. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/35698/dear-anet-team/p1

I can't say much right now, except that the Systems team (Skills & Balance + Competitive) are well aware that mesmers are a huge concern for the community right now. We're looking at them and discussing various ideas for changes.

While there's no guarantee that any specific area will change or that your ideas here will affect those changes, I do think it's likely that change is coming. So I encourage more on-topic suggestions here if you have other suggestions. And I think it's a good idea to create purposeful threads around other topics (e.g. Mirage changes), but I don't know enough to start that conversation.

Cheers :)

[OriOri.8724]

More on topic suggestions.

• Reduce base disenchanter damage by 50%. Its a very punishing phantasm already because it is an unblockable mass strip, it shouldn't also be dealing huge damage
• Remove the stunbreak from EM
• Reduce bonus damage per blocked hit on defender to 25% in PvP/WvW, reduce maximum damage increase to 250%
• Change PoM

[RabbitUp.8294]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill

straight up quadruple

their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait

straight up quadruple

quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma

is

balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple

ANY

ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

So, are you just lying in our face now? When you dodge, you get 1 ambush attack. With Infinite Horizon, you get 4 ambush attacks. How is that not quadrupling the damage output?

And the second part, that is literally what I'm saying, if my point went more over your head, it would be in orbit now. The fact that a mechanic can be quadrupled by a trait, not even a heal skill is needed, and still remain balanced because the initial numbers are balanced with the trait in mind, means that the problem is not the quadrupling, but the whole "fight-ending potential" of phantasms.

And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage. PvE Power Chrono in is a gross aberration because one heal skill and one trait add about 12k DPS to the build. There is nothing else in the entire game where one trait and one heal with that much power loaded into it. It's like if Grace of the Land had an issue that combined with We He As One made them a better DPS build than a majority of damage orientated elite specs in the game. At the very least, you have to admit it's really weird.

[benchmarks needed]

If you want to talk dps, first link to a video that proves your point.

I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live.

What are firebrand and renegade supposed to be? Because they can play suppor, and also play dps. And guardian in particular already has dragonhunter as a dps spec.I've never even heard of Renegade Support. Like Renegade has team based buffs, but those buffs are all damage orientated. It's like calling Condition Daredevil a support spec.I've also never even heard of Firebrand running support outside of PvP. But Guardian's F2 and F3 skills are inherently designed to support allies. The core of guardian is built to inherently support allies. While dragonhunter is a selfish DPS spec, firebrand continuing with Guardian's inherent support isn't that weird.

Renegade can play as healer/alacrity support, and it's a straight upgrade from base or herald in that regard, both for the healing and alacrity output.

And FB is the support when it comes to wvw, of course continuing in base guardian's footsteps. And it would be a meta support in pve, too, it's just that chrono does the job better. You can still play it as support regardless, even if it's not a meta build.

So, yeah, how about that argument that specs don't have multiple roles and that somehow chrono playing as dps is a problem?

Condi damage and power damage never compete in anet's eyes. The fact that mirage is a condi spec doesn't mean mesmer is covered dps-wise. The real reason for them to nerf power chrono would be so they can sell a dedicated power dps spec next expansion, like they did with tempest and condi reaper.Condi damage and power damage are always competing. There have been multiple statements across years of the game that power is suppsosed provide instant burst damage while condition damage is supposed to have higher sustained damage with more ramp. We had a patch a few months ago where almost all condition damage attacks had their intensity stacks halved and their duration doubled explicitly to give power damage and condition damage more clear niches and divides.

For someone that claims to be knowledgable in pve, you sure are not very in touch with it. Yes, the 2 damage types are supposed to have their own niches, but they don't.

You said that condi specs are designed for raids, yet if you looked at what comps are being run, power is doing more than fine, and not just weaver. Really, the only time you see the majority of dps roles filled by condi is when a speedclear group is stacking scourges for epi bounces.

The condi rebalancing you mention was meant to trim condi's burst and it was aimed more at pvp/wvw that it was for pve. In pve, the dps remained unchanged, while the ramp-up time was already noticeable before the patch and became a bit more after it. Certain raid encounters still encourage burst damage by utilising phases and condi cleanse, and outside of raids power is king, so a class having access to both damage types is very relevant.

So, like I said before, mirage being a thing doesn't cover mesmer's dps needs.

And a bit unrelated, how is chrono easier to play than most builds? It has some tricky timings, like y using CS during Ether's aftercast and you have to keep track of your Compounding Power and Finesse stacks, when there are builds that literally do little more than autoattack. It's not weaver, but don't act like you are purging the game of a brainless build.PvP Chronobunker is pure faceroll. I'm not talking about the PvE DPS version. Like yeah, with Chrono there's always some finesse with Continuum Split but that's about it.

This is your exact post "I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations."

How are you talking about pvp chronobunker here?

I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play.

Removing options from pve is the exact opposite of fun.Sometimes things can be fun, AND unhealthy.

Yes, but pve power chrono is not one of them.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill

straight up quadruple

their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait

straight up quadruple

quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma

is

balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple

ANY

ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

So, are you just lying in our face now? When you dodge, you get 1 ambush attack. With Infinite Horizon, you get 4 ambush attacks. How is that not quadrupling the damage output?

And the second part, that is literally what I'm saying, if my point went more over your head, it would be in orbit now. The fact that a mechanic can be quadrupled by a trait, not even a heal skill is needed, and still remain balanced because the initial numbers are balanced with the trait in mind, means that the problem is not the quadrupling, but the whole "fight-ending potential" of phantasms.

And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage. PvE Power Chrono in is a gross aberration because one heal skill and one trait add about 12k DPS to the build. There is nothing else in the entire game where one trait and one heal with that much power loaded into it. It's like if Grace of the Land had an issue that combined with We He As One made them a better DPS build than a majority of damage orientated elite specs in the game. At the very least, you have to admit it's really weird.

[benchmarks needed]

If you want to talk dps, first link to a video that proves your point.

I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live.

What are firebrand and renegade supposed to be? Because they can play suppor, and also play dps. And guardian in particular already has dragonhunter as a dps spec.I've never even heard of Renegade Support. Like Renegade has team based buffs, but those buffs are all damage orientated. It's like calling Condition Daredevil a support spec.I've also never even heard of Firebrand running support outside of PvP. But Guardian's F2 and F3 skills are inherently designed to support allies. The core of guardian is built to inherently support allies. While dragonhunter is a selfish DPS spec, firebrand continuing with Guardian's inherent support isn't that weird.

Renegade can play as healer/alacrity support, and it's a straight upgrade from base or herald in that regard, both for the healing and alacrity output.

And FB is

the

support when it comes to wvw, of course continuing in base guardian's footsteps. And it would be a meta support in pve, too, it's just that chrono does the job better. You can still play it as support regardless, even if it's not a meta build.

So, yeah, how about that argument that specs don't have multiple roles and that somehow chrono playing as dps is a problem?

Condi damage and power damage never compete in anet's eyes. The fact that mirage is a condi spec doesn't mean mesmer is covered dps-wise. The real reason for them to nerf power chrono would be so they can sell a dedicated power dps spec next expansion, like they did with tempest and condi reaper.Condi damage and power damage are always competing. There have been multiple statements across years of the game that power is suppsosed provide instant burst damage while condition damage is supposed to have higher sustained damage with more ramp. We had a patch a few months ago where almost all condition damage attacks had their intensity stacks halved and their duration doubled explicitly to give power damage and condition damage more clear niches and divides.

For someone that claims to be knowledgable in pve, you sure are not very in touch with it. Yes, the 2 damage types are supposed to have their own niches, but they don't.

You said that condi specs are designed for raids, yet if you looked at what comps are being run, power is doing more than fine, and not just weaver. Really, the only time you see the majority of dps roles filled by condi is when a speedclear group is stacking scourges for epi bounces.

The condi rebalancing you mention was meant to trim condi's burst and it was aimed more at pvp/wvw that it was for pve. In pve, the dps remained unchanged, while the ramp-up time was already noticeable before the patch and became a bit more after it. Certain raid encounters still encourage burst damage by utilising phases and condi cleanse, and outside of raids power is king, so a class having access to both damage types is very relevant.

So, like I said before, mirage being a thing doesn't cover mesmer's dps needs.

And a bit unrelated, how is chrono easier to play than most builds? It has some tricky timings, like y using CS during Ether's aftercast and you have to keep track of your Compounding Power and Finesse stacks, when there are builds that literally do little more than autoattack. It's not weaver, but don't act like you are purging the game of a brainless build.PvP Chronobunker is pure faceroll. I'm not talking about the PvE DPS version. Like yeah, with Chrono there's always some finesse with Continuum Split but that's about it.

This is your exact post "I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations."

How are you talking about pvp chronobunker here?

I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play.

Removing options from pve is the exact opposite of fun.Sometimes things can be fun, AND unhealthy.

Yes, but pve power chrono is not one of them.

Infinite Horizon does give you 3 more ambush attacks simultaneously true, but the output of them is not the same as 4x the damage. For example, IH Axe Ambush only gives 6 more stacks of torment from the clones, the player version also gives 6 stacks so only a 2x improvement. Scepter gives 4x the conditions yes but 75% of them have 50% reduced duration so the output is still somewhere around 2x improvement. As for the power improvement of Sword and GS ambushes, clone damage is less than player damage I don't know the exact ratio but still it's nowhere near 4x improvement. The only weapon that does get a 4x improvement is Staff, but Chaos Vortex isn't exactly a guaranteed hit.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill

straight up quadruple

their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait

straight up quadruple

quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma

is

balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple

ANY

ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

So, are you just lying in our face now? When you dodge, you get 1 ambush attack. With Infinite Horizon, you get 4 ambush attacks. How is that not quadrupling the damage output?

And the second part, that is literally what I'm saying, if my point went more over your head, it would be in orbit now. The fact that a mechanic can be quadrupled by a trait, not even a heal skill is needed, and still remain balanced because the initial numbers are balanced with the trait in mind, means that the problem is not the quadrupling, but the whole "fight-ending potential" of phantasms.

And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage. PvE Power Chrono in is a gross aberration because one heal skill and one trait add about 12k DPS to the build. There is nothing else in the entire game where one trait and one heal with that much power loaded into it. It's like if Grace of the Land had an issue that combined with We He As One made them a better DPS build than a majority of damage orientated elite specs in the game. At the very least, you have to admit it's really weird.

[benchmarks needed]

If you want to talk dps, first link to a video that proves your point.

I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live.

What are firebrand and renegade supposed to be? Because they can play suppor, and also play dps. And guardian in particular already has dragonhunter as a dps spec.I've never even heard of Renegade Support. Like Renegade has team based buffs, but those buffs are all damage orientated. It's like calling Condition Daredevil a support spec.I've also never even heard of Firebrand running support outside of PvP. But Guardian's F2 and F3 skills are inherently designed to support allies. The core of guardian is built to inherently support allies. While dragonhunter is a selfish DPS spec, firebrand continuing with Guardian's inherent support isn't that weird.

Renegade can play as healer/alacrity support, and it's a straight upgrade from base or herald in that regard, both for the healing and alacrity output.

And FB is

the

support when it comes to wvw, of course continuing in base guardian's footsteps. And it would be a meta support in pve, too, it's just that chrono does the job better. You can still play it as support regardless, even if it's not a meta build.

So, yeah, how about that argument that specs don't have multiple roles and that somehow chrono playing as dps is a problem?

Condi damage and power damage never compete in anet's eyes. The fact that mirage is a condi spec doesn't mean mesmer is covered dps-wise. The real reason for them to nerf power chrono would be so they can sell a dedicated power dps spec next expansion, like they did with tempest and condi reaper.Condi damage and power damage are always competing. There have been multiple statements across years of the game that power is suppsosed provide instant burst damage while condition damage is supposed to have higher sustained damage with more ramp. We had a patch a few months ago where almost all condition damage attacks had their intensity stacks halved and their duration doubled explicitly to give power damage and condition damage more clear niches and divides.

For someone that claims to be knowledgable in pve, you sure are not very in touch with it. Yes, the 2 damage types are supposed to have their own niches, but they don't.

You said that condi specs are designed for raids, yet if you looked at what comps are being run, power is doing more than fine, and not just weaver. Really, the only time you see the majority of dps roles filled by condi is when a speedclear group is stacking scourges for epi bounces.

The condi rebalancing you mention was meant to trim condi's burst and it was aimed more at pvp/wvw that it was for pve. In pve, the dps remained unchanged, while the ramp-up time was already noticeable before the patch and became a bit more after it. Certain raid encounters still encourage burst damage by utilising phases and condi cleanse, and outside of raids power is king, so a class having access to both damage types is very relevant.

So, like I said before, mirage being a thing doesn't cover mesmer's dps needs.

And a bit unrelated, how is chrono easier to play than most builds? It has some tricky timings, like y using CS during Ether's aftercast and you have to keep track of your Compounding Power and Finesse stacks, when there are builds that literally do little more than autoattack. It's not weaver, but don't act like you are purging the game of a brainless build.PvP Chronobunker is pure faceroll. I'm not talking about the PvE DPS version. Like yeah, with Chrono there's always some finesse with Continuum Split but that's about it.

This is your exact post "I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations."

How are you talking about pvp chronobunker here?

I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play.

Removing options from pve is the exact opposite of fun.Sometimes things can be fun, AND unhealthy.

Yes, but pve power chrono is not one of them.

Infinite Horizon does give you 3 more ambush attacks simultaneously true, but the output of them is not the same as 4x the damage. For example, IH Axe Ambush only gives 6 more stacks of torment from the clones, the player version also gives 6 stacks so only a 2x improvement. Scepter gives 4x the conditions yes but 75% of them have 50% reduced duration so the output is still somewhere around 2x improvement. As for the power improvement of Sword and GS ambushes, clone damage is less than player damage I don't know the exact ratio but still it's nowhere near 4x improvement. The only weapon that does get a 4x improvement is Staff, but Chaos Vortex isn't exactly a guaranteed hit.

Axes was changed post-launch, I believe clones used to get the same version originally. Phantasms are not guaranteed hits either, so chaos vortex not being one doesn't mean much. And Axes being "only" a 2x increase is still equal to Chronophantasma, because CP is only a 2x increase by itself, too.

And we've had similar suggestions for Chronophantasma that doesn't require destryoing the trait for pve: make the second phantasms lesser versions of the first, allowing a clean split for the 2 game modes. Less damage for all in pvp, and maybe no taunt at all for the second defender since pve doesn't really need it anyway.

The argument that Chronophantasma is mechanically flawed and it's not an issue of tweaking the numbers doesn't stand. Visual clutter is a different issue.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill

straight up quadruple

their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait

straight up quadruple

quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma

is

balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple

ANY

ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

So, are you just lying in our face now? When you dodge, you get 1 ambush attack. With Infinite Horizon, you get 4 ambush attacks. How is that not quadrupling the damage output?

And the second part, that is literally what I'm saying, if my point went more over your head, it would be in orbit now. The fact that a mechanic can be quadrupled by a trait, not even a heal skill is needed, and still remain balanced because the initial numbers are balanced with the trait in mind, means that the problem is not the quadrupling, but the whole "fight-ending potential" of phantasms.

And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage. PvE Power Chrono in is a gross aberration because one heal skill and one trait add about 12k DPS to the build. There is nothing else in the entire game where one trait and one heal with that much power loaded into it. It's like if Grace of the Land had an issue that combined with We He As One made them a better DPS build than a majority of damage orientated elite specs in the game. At the very least, you have to admit it's really weird.

[benchmarks needed]

If you want to talk dps, first link to a video that proves your point.

I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live.

What are firebrand and renegade supposed to be? Because they can play suppor, and also play dps. And guardian in particular already has dragonhunter as a dps spec.I've never even heard of Renegade Support. Like Renegade has team based buffs, but those buffs are all damage orientated. It's like calling Condition Daredevil a support spec.I've also never even heard of Firebrand running support outside of PvP. But Guardian's F2 and F3 skills are inherently designed to support allies. The core of guardian is built to inherently support allies. While dragonhunter is a selfish DPS spec, firebrand continuing with Guardian's inherent support isn't that weird.

Renegade can play as healer/alacrity support, and it's a straight upgrade from base or herald in that regard, both for the healing and alacrity output.

And FB is

the

support when it comes to wvw, of course continuing in base guardian's footsteps. And it would be a meta support in pve, too, it's just that chrono does the job better. You can still play it as support regardless, even if it's not a meta build.

So, yeah, how about that argument that specs don't have multiple roles and that somehow chrono playing as dps is a problem?

Condi damage and power damage never compete in anet's eyes. The fact that mirage is a condi spec doesn't mean mesmer is covered dps-wise. The real reason for them to nerf power chrono would be so they can sell a dedicated power dps spec next expansion, like they did with tempest and condi reaper.Condi damage and power damage are always competing. There have been multiple statements across years of the game that power is suppsosed provide instant burst damage while condition damage is supposed to have higher sustained damage with more ramp. We had a patch a few months ago where almost all condition damage attacks had their intensity stacks halved and their duration doubled explicitly to give power damage and condition damage more clear niches and divides.

For someone that claims to be knowledgable in pve, you sure are not very in touch with it. Yes, the 2 damage types are supposed to have their own niches, but they don't.

You said that condi specs are designed for raids, yet if you looked at what comps are being run, power is doing more than fine, and not just weaver. Really, the only time you see the majority of dps roles filled by condi is when a speedclear group is stacking scourges for epi bounces.

The condi rebalancing you mention was meant to trim condi's burst and it was aimed more at pvp/wvw that it was for pve. In pve, the dps remained unchanged, while the ramp-up time was already noticeable before the patch and became a bit more after it. Certain raid encounters still encourage burst damage by utilising phases and condi cleanse, and outside of raids power is king, so a class having access to both damage types is very relevant.

So, like I said before, mirage being a thing doesn't cover mesmer's dps needs.

And a bit unrelated, how is chrono easier to play than most builds? It has some tricky timings, like y using CS during Ether's aftercast and you have to keep track of your Compounding Power and Finesse stacks, when there are builds that literally do little more than autoattack. It's not weaver, but don't act like you are purging the game of a brainless build.PvP Chronobunker is pure faceroll. I'm not talking about the PvE DPS version. Like yeah, with Chrono there's always some finesse with Continuum Split but that's about it.

This is your exact post "I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations."

How are you talking about pvp chronobunker here?

I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play.

Removing options from pve is the exact opposite of fun.Sometimes things can be fun, AND unhealthy.

Yes, but pve power chrono is not one of them.

Infinite Horizon does give you 3 more ambush attacks simultaneously true, but the output of them is not the same as 4x the damage. For example, IH Axe Ambush only gives 6 more stacks of torment from the clones, the player version also gives 6 stacks so only a 2x improvement. Scepter gives 4x the conditions yes but 75% of them have 50% reduced duration so the output is still somewhere around 2x improvement. As for the power improvement of Sword and GS ambushes, clone damage is less than player damage I don't know the exact ratio but still it's nowhere near 4x improvement. The only weapon that does get a 4x improvement is Staff, but Chaos Vortex isn't exactly a guaranteed hit.

Axes was changed post-launch, I believe clones used to get the same version originally. Phantasms are not guaranteed hits either, so chaos vortex not being one doesn't mean much. And Axes being "only" a 2x increase is still equal to Chronophantasma, because CP is only a 2x increase by itself, too.

And we've had similar suggestions for Chronophantasma that doesn't require destryoing the trait for pve: make the second phantasms lesser versions of the first, allowing a clean split for the 2 game modes. Less damage for all in pvp, and maybe no taunt at all for the second defender since pve doesn't really need it anyway.

The argument that Chronophantasma is mechanically flawed and it's not an issue of tweaking the numbers doesn't stand. Visual clutter is a different issue.

Oh I'm on the fence about CP, I just wanted to step in and clarify the false equivalency.

[apharma.3741]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill

straight up quadruple

their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait

straight up quadruple

quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma

is

balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple

ANY

ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

So, are you just lying in our face now? When you dodge, you get 1 ambush attack. With Infinite Horizon, you get 4 ambush attacks. How is that not quadrupling the damage output?

And the second part, that is literally what I'm saying, if my point went more over your head, it would be in orbit now. The fact that a mechanic can be quadrupled by a trait, not even a heal skill is needed, and still remain balanced because the initial numbers are balanced with the trait in mind, means that the problem is not the quadrupling, but the whole "fight-ending potential" of phantasms.

And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage. PvE Power Chrono in is a gross aberration because one heal skill and one trait add about 12k DPS to the build. There is nothing else in the entire game where one trait and one heal with that much power loaded into it. It's like if Grace of the Land had an issue that combined with We He As One made them a better DPS build than a majority of damage orientated elite specs in the game. At the very least, you have to admit it's really weird.

[benchmarks needed]

If you want to talk dps, first link to a video that proves your point.

I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live.

What are firebrand and renegade supposed to be? Because they can play suppor, and also play dps. And guardian in particular already has dragonhunter as a dps spec.I've never even heard of Renegade Support. Like Renegade has team based buffs, but those buffs are all damage orientated. It's like calling Condition Daredevil a support spec.I've also never even heard of Firebrand running support outside of PvP. But Guardian's F2 and F3 skills are inherently designed to support allies. The core of guardian is built to inherently support allies. While dragonhunter is a selfish DPS spec, firebrand continuing with Guardian's inherent support isn't that weird.

Renegade can play as healer/alacrity support, and it's a straight upgrade from base or herald in that regard, both for the healing and alacrity output.

And FB is

the

support when it comes to wvw, of course continuing in base guardian's footsteps. And it would be a meta support in pve, too, it's just that chrono does the job better. You can still play it as support regardless, even if it's not a meta build.

So, yeah, how about that argument that specs don't have multiple roles and that somehow chrono playing as dps is a problem?

Condi damage and power damage never compete in anet's eyes. The fact that mirage is a condi spec doesn't mean mesmer is covered dps-wise. The real reason for them to nerf power chrono would be so they can sell a dedicated power dps spec next expansion, like they did with tempest and condi reaper.Condi damage and power damage are always competing. There have been multiple statements across years of the game that power is suppsosed provide instant burst damage while condition damage is supposed to have higher sustained damage with more ramp. We had a patch a few months ago where almost all condition damage attacks had their intensity stacks halved and their duration doubled explicitly to give power damage and condition damage more clear niches and divides.

For someone that claims to be knowledgable in pve, you sure are not very in touch with it. Yes, the 2 damage types are supposed to have their own niches, but they don't.

You said that condi specs are designed for raids, yet if you looked at what comps are being run, power is doing more than fine, and not just weaver. Really, the only time you see the majority of dps roles filled by condi is when a speedclear group is stacking scourges for epi bounces.

The condi rebalancing you mention was meant to trim condi's burst and it was aimed more at pvp/wvw that it was for pve. In pve, the dps remained unchanged, while the ramp-up time was already noticeable before the patch and became a bit more after it. Certain raid encounters still encourage burst damage by utilising phases and condi cleanse, and outside of raids power is king, so a class having access to both damage types is very relevant.

So, like I said before, mirage being a thing doesn't cover mesmer's dps needs.

And a bit unrelated, how is chrono easier to play than most builds? It has some tricky timings, like y using CS during Ether's aftercast and you have to keep track of your Compounding Power and Finesse stacks, when there are builds that literally do little more than autoattack. It's not weaver, but don't act like you are purging the game of a brainless build.PvP Chronobunker is pure faceroll. I'm not talking about the PvE DPS version. Like yeah, with Chrono there's always some finesse with Continuum Split but that's about it.

This is your exact post "I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations."

How are you talking about pvp chronobunker here?

I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play.

Removing options from pve is the exact opposite of fun.Sometimes things can be fun, AND unhealthy.

Yes, but pve power chrono is not one of them.

Infinite Horizon does give you 3 more ambush attacks simultaneously true, but the output of them is not the same as 4x the damage. For example, IH Axe Ambush only gives 6 more stacks of torment from the clones, the player version also gives 6 stacks so only a 2x improvement. Scepter gives 4x the conditions yes but 75% of them have 50% reduced duration so the output is still somewhere around 2x improvement. As for the power improvement of Sword and GS ambushes, clone damage is less than player damage I don't know the exact ratio but still it's nowhere near 4x improvement. The only weapon that does get a 4x improvement is Staff, but Chaos Vortex isn't exactly a guaranteed hit.

Axes was changed post-launch, I believe clones used to get the same version originally. Phantasms are not guaranteed hits either, so chaos vortex not being one doesn't mean much. And Axes being "only" a 2x increase is still equal to Chronophantasma, because CP is only a 2x increase by itself, too.

And we've had similar suggestions for Chronophantasma that doesn't require destryoing the trait for pve: make the second phantasms lesser versions of the first, allowing a clean split for the 2 game modes. Less damage for all in pvp, and maybe no taunt at all for the second defender since pve doesn't really need it anyway.

The argument that Chronophantasma is mechanically flawed and it's not an issue of tweaking the numbers doesn't stand. Visual clutter is a different issue.

Let’s say you are fighting a mesmer, they summon disenchanter, you dodge the first, run behind some boxes to LoS the second which trots up to you, you kill it. Meanwhile the mesmer summons another clone and sends it to shatter so you block that. Then they summon 2 more phantasms, one from each weapon but they’re staggered, it’s fortunate this mesmer was bad enough to summon one into block so you block one hit and dodge behind some boxes again. Swap weapon to get a dodge back quicker but you lost the cap.

The other way this plays out is you don’t LoS and the resummoning of phantasms burn through your defences like a fire at a timber yard, you don’t want to get hit by a disenchanter, you can probably tank a hit from a weapon phantasm but you still have 5 more attacks to avoid and this is assuming no CS or SotE shenanigans. Add those into the mix and you not only have a lot of visual clutter but a lot of attacks to avoid, this is the crucial aspect of the build, it burns through defences quite rapidly at range and getting close to the mesmer is very dangerous as shatters still hurt as well as more chaos storms flying around.

While I could see CP staying I do think the trait would be a reoccurring issue in the long term especially when base line chrono has F5 to double down on the resummoning which would see a redesign of either CS or CP.

Edit: if you want DPS chrono to be a thing there are much easier and better splits to do, adjust the bonus damage from danger time to be more in PvE, remove the ICD on lost time in PvE, just these two would be a significant buff with mesmer getting perma slow on targets. It also means mesmer can get and maintain a 50% crit chance on its own with duelling and chrono which should benefit every skill it uses so will upgrade to berserker gear. If you want skills splits it’s better to have small increases all over the place for PvE than to have massive differences, if you’ve ever duelled as or against a mesmer in the guild hall you’ll know how much of a bad joke mesmer PvE split it.

@OriOri.8724 I forgot to mention, I really liked that idea of condition cleanse per illusion on SotE, was a very good reason too.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@apharma.3741 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill

straight up quadruple

their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait

straight up quadruple

quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma

is

balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple

ANY

ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

So, are you just lying in our face now? When you dodge, you get 1 ambush attack. With Infinite Horizon, you get 4 ambush attacks. How is that not quadrupling the damage output?

And the second part, that is literally what I'm saying, if my point went more over your head, it would be in orbit now. The fact that a mechanic can be quadrupled by a trait, not even a heal skill is needed, and still remain balanced because the initial numbers are balanced with the trait in mind, means that the problem is not the quadrupling, but the whole "fight-ending potential" of phantasms.

And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage. PvE Power Chrono in is a gross aberration because one heal skill and one trait add about 12k DPS to the build. There is nothing else in the entire game where one trait and one heal with that much power loaded into it. It's like if Grace of the Land had an issue that combined with We He As One made them a better DPS build than a majority of damage orientated elite specs in the game. At the very least, you have to admit it's really weird.

[benchmarks needed]

If you want to talk dps, first link to a video that proves your point.

I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live.

What are firebrand and renegade supposed to be? Because they can play suppor, and also play dps. And guardian in particular already has dragonhunter as a dps spec.I've never even heard of Renegade Support. Like Renegade has team based buffs, but those buffs are all damage orientated. It's like calling Condition Daredevil a support spec.I've also never even heard of Firebrand running support outside of PvP. But Guardian's F2 and F3 skills are inherently designed to support allies. The core of guardian is built to inherently support allies. While dragonhunter is a selfish DPS spec, firebrand continuing with Guardian's inherent support isn't that weird.

Renegade can play as healer/alacrity support, and it's a straight upgrade from base or herald in that regard, both for the healing and alacrity output.

And FB is

the

support when it comes to wvw, of course continuing in base guardian's footsteps. And it would be a meta support in pve, too, it's just that chrono does the job better. You can still play it as support regardless, even if it's not a meta build.

So, yeah, how about that argument that specs don't have multiple roles and that somehow chrono playing as dps is a problem?

Condi damage and power damage never compete in anet's eyes. The fact that mirage is a condi spec doesn't mean mesmer is covered dps-wise. The real reason for them to nerf power chrono would be so they can sell a dedicated power dps spec next expansion, like they did with tempest and condi reaper.Condi damage and power damage are always competing. There have been multiple statements across years of the game that power is suppsosed provide instant burst damage while condition damage is supposed to have higher sustained damage with more ramp. We had a patch a few months ago where almost all condition damage attacks had their intensity stacks halved and their duration doubled explicitly to give power damage and condition damage more clear niches and divides.

For someone that claims to be knowledgable in pve, you sure are not very in touch with it. Yes, the 2 damage types are supposed to have their own niches, but they don't.

You said that condi specs are designed for raids, yet if you looked at what comps are being run, power is doing more than fine, and not just weaver. Really, the only time you see the majority of dps roles filled by condi is when a speedclear group is stacking scourges for epi bounces.

The condi rebalancing you mention was meant to trim condi's burst and it was aimed more at pvp/wvw that it was for pve. In pve, the dps remained unchanged, while the ramp-up time was already noticeable before the patch and became a bit more after it. Certain raid encounters still encourage burst damage by utilising phases and condi cleanse, and outside of raids power is king, so a class having access to both damage types is very relevant.

So, like I said before, mirage being a thing doesn't cover mesmer's dps needs.

And a bit unrelated, how is chrono easier to play than most builds? It has some tricky timings, like y using CS during Ether's aftercast and you have to keep track of your Compounding Power and Finesse stacks, when there are builds that literally do little more than autoattack. It's not weaver, but don't act like you are purging the game of a brainless build.PvP Chronobunker is pure faceroll. I'm not talking about the PvE DPS version. Like yeah, with Chrono there's always some finesse with Continuum Split but that's about it.

This is your exact post "I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations."

How are you talking about pvp chronobunker here?

I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play.

Removing options from pve is the exact opposite of fun.Sometimes things can be fun, AND unhealthy.

Yes, but pve power chrono is not one of them.

Infinite Horizon does give you 3 more ambush attacks simultaneously true, but the output of them is not the same as 4x the damage. For example, IH Axe Ambush only gives 6 more stacks of torment from the clones, the player version also gives 6 stacks so only a 2x improvement. Scepter gives 4x the conditions yes but 75% of them have 50% reduced duration so the output is still somewhere around 2x improvement. As for the power improvement of Sword and GS ambushes, clone damage is less than player damage I don't know the exact ratio but still it's nowhere near 4x improvement. The only weapon that does get a 4x improvement is Staff, but Chaos Vortex isn't exactly a guaranteed hit.

Axes was changed post-launch, I believe clones used to get the same version originally. Phantasms are not guaranteed hits either, so chaos vortex not being one doesn't mean much. And Axes being "only" a 2x increase is still equal to Chronophantasma, because CP is only a 2x increase by itself, too.

And we've had similar suggestions for Chronophantasma that doesn't require destryoing the trait for pve: make the second phantasms lesser versions of the first, allowing a clean split for the 2 game modes. Less damage for all in pvp, and maybe no taunt at all for the second defender since pve doesn't really need it anyway.

The argument that Chronophantasma is mechanically flawed and it's not an issue of tweaking the numbers doesn't stand. Visual clutter is a different issue.

Let’s say you are fighting a mesmer, they summon disenchanter, you dodge the first, run behind some boxes to LoS the second which trots up to you, you kill it. Meanwhile the mesmer summons another clone and sends it to shatter so you block that. Then they summon 2 more phantasms, one from each weapon but they’re staggered, it’s fortunate this mesmer was bad enough to summon one into block so you block one hit and dodge behind some boxes again. Swap weapon to get a dodge back quicker but you lost the cap.

The other way this plays out is you don’t LoS and the resummoning of phantasms burn through your defences like a fire at a timber yard, you don’t want to get hit by a disenchanter, you can probably tank a hit from a weapon phantasm but you still have 5 more attacks to avoid and this is assuming no CS or SotE shenanigans. Add those into the mix and you not only have a lot of visual clutter but a lot of attacks to avoid, this is the crucial aspect of the build, it burns through defences quite rapidly at range and getting close to the mesmer is very dangerous as shatters still hurt as well as more chaos storms flying around.

While I could see CP staying I do think the trait would be a reoccurring issue in the long term especially when base line chrono has F5 to double down on the resummoning which would see a redesign of either CS or CP.

Edit: if you want DPS chrono to be a thing there are much easier and better splits to do, adjust the bonus damage from danger time to be more in PvE, remove the ICD on lost time in PvE, just these two would be a significant buff with mesmer getting perma slow on targets. It also means mesmer can get and maintain a 50% crit chance on its own with duelling and chrono which should benefit every skill it uses so will upgrade to berserker gear. If you want skills splits it’s better to have small increases all over the place for PvE than to have massive differences, if you’ve ever duelled as or against a mesmer in the guild hall you’ll know how much of a bad joke mesmer PvE split it.

@OriOri.8724 I forgot to mention, I really liked that idea of condition cleanse per illusion on SotE, was a very good reason too.

This is under the assumption that phantasms are super heavy-hitting skills so that you have to dodge/block/LoS all of them. This is not LoL, no matter who you are fighting, they will pressure you and you have to mitigate ther damage, phantasms are no different.

If anything, against mesmer you have the added option of cleaving the phantasms down or ccing them, when you can't do that against regular skills other classes have.

[mortrialus.3062]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill

straight up quadruple

their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait

straight up quadruple

quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma

is

balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple

ANY

ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

So, are you just lying in our face now? When you dodge, you get 1 ambush attack. With Infinite Horizon, you get 4 ambush attacks. How is that not quadrupling the damage output?

This is a blatant false equivalency and you know it. If you're not going to argue in good faith you can go ahead and never talk to me again because you aren't worth talking to.

[kodesh.2851]

Much more likely they will just fine tune damage ratios if anything. The rework is done, get used to new phants.

[mortrialus.3062]

@kodesh.2851 said:Much more likely they will just fine tune damage ratios if anything. The rework is done, get used to new phants.

I think the new phantasms are fine (Aside from poor Focus which is now dramatically worse after the rework in my opinion) on their own they're all great and they're all generally fun to play against. I like that phantasms aren't just either this passive thing that just endlessly racks up damage bit by bit over the course of the fight. I like that they're all really unique and impactful and most of them are really fun to play with and against in both PvE and PvP. On their own, individually.

Really, if I know Arenanet and at this point I feel like I do, their solution is going to be something like slapping a 5 second internal cooldown on Chronophantasma in PvP and potentially giving SotE a different active.

[apharma.3741]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill

straight up quadruple

their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait

straight up quadruple

quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma

is

balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple

ANY

ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

So, are you just lying in our face now? When you dodge, you get 1 ambush attack. With Infinite Horizon, you get 4 ambush attacks. How is that not quadrupling the damage output?

And the second part, that is literally what I'm saying, if my point went more over your head, it would be in orbit now. The fact that a mechanic can be quadrupled by a trait, not even a heal skill is needed, and still remain balanced because the initial numbers are balanced with the trait in mind, means that the problem is not the quadrupling, but the whole "fight-ending potential" of phantasms.

And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage. PvE Power Chrono in is a gross aberration because one heal skill and one trait add about 12k DPS to the build. There is nothing else in the entire game where one trait and one heal with that much power loaded into it. It's like if Grace of the Land had an issue that combined with We He As One made them a better DPS build than a majority of damage orientated elite specs in the game. At the very least, you have to admit it's really weird.

[benchmarks needed]

If you want to talk dps, first link to a video that proves your point.

I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live.

What are firebrand and renegade supposed to be? Because they can play suppor, and also play dps. And guardian in particular already has dragonhunter as a dps spec.I've never even heard of Renegade Support. Like Renegade has team based buffs, but those buffs are all damage orientated. It's like calling Condition Daredevil a support spec.I've also never even heard of Firebrand running support outside of PvP. But Guardian's F2 and F3 skills are inherently designed to support allies. The core of guardian is built to inherently support allies. While dragonhunter is a selfish DPS spec, firebrand continuing with Guardian's inherent support isn't that weird.

Renegade can play as healer/alacrity support, and it's a straight upgrade from base or herald in that regard, both for the healing and alacrity output.

And FB is

the

support when it comes to wvw, of course continuing in base guardian's footsteps. And it would be a meta support in pve, too, it's just that chrono does the job better. You can still play it as support regardless, even if it's not a meta build.

So, yeah, how about that argument that specs don't have multiple roles and that somehow chrono playing as dps is a problem?

Condi damage and power damage never compete in anet's eyes. The fact that mirage is a condi spec doesn't mean mesmer is covered dps-wise. The real reason for them to nerf power chrono would be so they can sell a dedicated power dps spec next expansion, like they did with tempest and condi reaper.Condi damage and power damage are always competing. There have been multiple statements across years of the game that power is suppsosed provide instant burst damage while condition damage is supposed to have higher sustained damage with more ramp. We had a patch a few months ago where almost all condition damage attacks had their intensity stacks halved and their duration doubled explicitly to give power damage and condition damage more clear niches and divides.

For someone that claims to be knowledgable in pve, you sure are not very in touch with it. Yes, the 2 damage types are supposed to have their own niches, but they don't.

You said that condi specs are designed for raids, yet if you looked at what comps are being run, power is doing more than fine, and not just weaver. Really, the only time you see the majority of dps roles filled by condi is when a speedclear group is stacking scourges for epi bounces.

The condi rebalancing you mention was meant to trim condi's burst and it was aimed more at pvp/wvw that it was for pve. In pve, the dps remained unchanged, while the ramp-up time was already noticeable before the patch and became a bit more after it. Certain raid encounters still encourage burst damage by utilising phases and condi cleanse, and outside of raids power is king, so a class having access to both damage types is very relevant.

So, like I said before, mirage being a thing doesn't cover mesmer's dps needs.

And a bit unrelated, how is chrono easier to play than most builds? It has some tricky timings, like y using CS during Ether's aftercast and you have to keep track of your Compounding Power and Finesse stacks, when there are builds that literally do little more than autoattack. It's not weaver, but don't act like you are purging the game of a brainless build.PvP Chronobunker is pure faceroll. I'm not talking about the PvE DPS version. Like yeah, with Chrono there's always some finesse with Continuum Split but that's about it.

This is your exact post "I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations."

How are you talking about pvp chronobunker here?

I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play.

Removing options from pve is the exact opposite of fun.Sometimes things can be fun, AND unhealthy.

Yes, but pve power chrono is not one of them.

Infinite Horizon does give you 3 more ambush attacks simultaneously true, but the output of them is not the same as 4x the damage. For example, IH Axe Ambush only gives 6 more stacks of torment from the clones, the player version also gives 6 stacks so only a 2x improvement. Scepter gives 4x the conditions yes but 75% of them have 50% reduced duration so the output is still somewhere around 2x improvement. As for the power improvement of Sword and GS ambushes, clone damage is less than player damage I don't know the exact ratio but still it's nowhere near 4x improvement. The only weapon that does get a 4x improvement is Staff, but Chaos Vortex isn't exactly a guaranteed hit.

Axes was changed post-launch, I believe clones used to get the same version originally. Phantasms are not guaranteed hits either, so chaos vortex not being one doesn't mean much. And Axes being "only" a 2x increase is still equal to Chronophantasma, because CP is only a 2x increase by itself, too.

And we've had similar suggestions for Chronophantasma that doesn't require destryoing the trait for pve: make the second phantasms lesser versions of the first, allowing a clean split for the 2 game modes. Less damage for all in pvp, and maybe no taunt at all for the second defender since pve doesn't really need it anyway.

The argument that Chronophantasma is mechanically flawed and it's not an issue of tweaking the numbers doesn't stand. Visual clutter is a different issue.

Let’s say you are fighting a mesmer, they summon disenchanter, you dodge the first, run behind some boxes to LoS the second which trots up to you, you kill it. Meanwhile the mesmer summons another clone and sends it to shatter so you block that. Then they summon 2 more phantasms, one from each weapon but they’re staggered, it’s fortunate this mesmer was bad enough to summon one into block so you block one hit and dodge behind some boxes again. Swap weapon to get a dodge back quicker but you lost the cap.

The other way this plays out is you don’t LoS and the resummoning of phantasms burn through your defences like a fire at a timber yard, you don’t want to get hit by a disenchanter, you can probably tank a hit from a weapon phantasm but you still have 5 more attacks to avoid and this is assuming no CS or SotE shenanigans. Add those into the mix and you not only have a lot of visual clutter but a lot of attacks to avoid, this is the crucial aspect of the build, it burns through defences quite rapidly at range and getting close to the mesmer is very dangerous as shatters still hurt as well as more chaos storms flying around.

While I could see CP staying I do think the trait would be a reoccurring issue in the long term especially when base line chrono has F5 to double down on the resummoning which would see a redesign of either CS or CP.

Edit: if you want DPS chrono to be a thing there are much easier and better splits to do, adjust the bonus damage from danger time to be more in PvE, remove the ICD on lost time in PvE, just these two would be a significant buff with mesmer getting perma slow on targets. It also means mesmer can get and maintain a 50% crit chance on its own with duelling and chrono which should benefit every skill it uses so will upgrade to berserker gear. If you want skills splits it’s better to have small increases all over the place for PvE than to have massive differences, if you’ve ever duelled as or against a mesmer in the guild hall you’ll know how much of a bad joke mesmer PvE split it.

@OriOri.8724 I forgot to mention, I really liked that idea of condition cleanse per illusion on SotE, was a very good reason too.

This is under the assumption that phantasms are super heavy-hitting skills so that you have to dodge/block/LoS all of them. This is not LoL, no matter who you are fighting, they will pressure you and you have to mitigate ther damage, phantasms are no different.

If anything, against mesmer you have the added option of cleaving the phantasms down or ccing them, when you can't do that against regular skills other classes have.

They don’t have to be “super heavy hitting”, most phantasms will take 3-5k off your health, that means 4-6 phantasms would kill you and this is the absolute most conservative estimate to give you as much benefit of the doubt, the reality is that it is closer to the 5k damage and 4 hits area. At the moment you can summon at least 9 in a cascade and you have your regular shatters and weapon skills to use, the point is you burn through someone’s defences with phantasms, creating a ton of AI entities that make seeing what happens a mess and you still have regular weapon skills to use on top of this and shatters.

Yes you can kill phantasms which you can’t on other classes but likewise other classes cannot reuse a powerful attack over and over again in a short time frame, except thief. I don’t want a return to the time when phantasm attacks were largely useless, I want those skills to do good damage and hit reliably.