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Phantasm amount reduction suggestions

eldenbri.1059

By eldenbri.1059
in Mesmer

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otto.5684

otto.5684

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

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mortrialus.3062

mortrialus.3062

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@otto.5684 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

If some variant of Power Mesmer is going to be a thing in PvE, it's real weird for almost half their damage to to come from one trait and one heal skill. It's not good design and worth reexamining power mesmer and spreading that damage elsewhere. Also when everyone in this thread is saying "Fuck you and fuck everyone who PvPs" it doesn't do a lot to exactly endear them and their concerns about a build they like to me. Part of me would like to see Power Chrono nerfed in PvE out of spite just because of the people in this thread expressing that sentiment.

The visual noise is also still just as ugly in PvE as it is in PvP.

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storm.3120

storm.3120

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@otto.5684 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

Since skills being split all around . Why anet not just slap better numbers on mesmer skills so overall mesmer DPS would be higher? Also some PvE'ers complain that 'OMAGAD SUPPORT SPEC DOING ABSURD AMOUNT OF DAMAGE ADSF' so they are pretty much unhappy that support spec compete for DPS slot :)
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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

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@otto.5684 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

The thing is chrono is already top level support, 4/6 of its utility skills are support (5 if you count break bar and mob clumping from GW) and most its traits combo into allowing quicker actions funnelling into more support. Even the slow on interrupt and cause slow every 5th hit are debuffs which is another kind of WvW/PvP support as it slows an enemies damage output.

One of the biggest issues with both expansions is support builds doing lots of damage, not every elite spec needs to have damage, support and defence, the concept of a weaver wanting more support on their skills and traits is silly so the reverse should likewise be true that a support specialisation wanting a high damage build should be silly.

Edit: if ANet does decide to give in and let chrono have a top level PvE build there’s no reason a skill split cannot be done increasing the crit damage of danger time, removing the ICD and upping the damage on lost time and likewise the damage on time catches up. This has the effect of buffing only chrono and putting out a generally rare condition in large amounts, slow.

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otto.5684

otto.5684

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

If some variant of Power Mesmer is going to be a thing in PvE, it's real weird for almost half their damage to to come from one trait and one heal skill. It's not good design and worth reexamining power mesmer and spreading that damage elsewhere. Also when everyone in this thread is saying "kitten you and kitten everyone who PvPs" it doesn't do a lot to exactly endear them and their concerns about a build they like to me. Part of me would like to see Power Chrono nerfed in PvE out of spite just because of the people in this thread expressing that sentiment.

The visual noise is also still just as ugly in PvE as it is in PvP.

I agree that the damage could be scattered among other skills and reduce the visual noise. But until anet figures that out, I would rather it stay the way it is in PvE.

@apharma.3741 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

The thing is chrono is already top level support, 4/6 of its utility skills are support (5 if you count break bar and mob clumping from GW) and most its traits combo into allowing quicker actions funnelling into more support. Even the slow on interrupt and cause slow every 5th hit are debuffs which is another kind of WvW/PvP support as it slows an enemies damage output.

One of the biggest issues with both expansions is support builds doing lots of damage, not every elite spec needs to have damage, support and defence, the concept of a weaver wanting more support on their skills and traits is silly so the reverse should likewise be true that a support specialisation wanting a high damage build should be silly.

Edit: if ANet does decide to give in and let chrono have a top level PvE build there’s no reason a skill split cannot be done increasing the crit damage of danger time, removing the ICD and upping the damage on lost time and likewise the damage on time catches up. This has the effect of buffing only chrono and putting out a generally rare condition in large amounts, slow.

Every single elite (and core as well) should have an optimal dps build in PvE. EVERY SINGLE ELITE. In fact every single elite should support a power, support and condi build.

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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

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@otto.5684 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

If some variant of Power Mesmer is going to be a thing in PvE, it's real weird for almost half their damage to to come from one trait and one heal skill. It's not good design and worth reexamining power mesmer and spreading that damage elsewhere. Also when everyone in this thread is saying "kitten you and kitten everyone who PvPs" it doesn't do a lot to exactly endear them and their concerns about a build they like to me. Part of me would like to see Power Chrono nerfed in PvE out of spite just because of the people in this thread expressing that sentiment.

The visual noise is also still just as ugly in PvE as it is in PvP.

I agree that the damage could be scattered among other skills and reduce the visual noise. But until anet figures that out, I would rather it stay the way it is in PvE.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

The thing is chrono is already top level support, 4/6 of its utility skills are support (5 if you count break bar and mob clumping from GW) and most its traits combo into allowing quicker actions funnelling into more support. Even the slow on interrupt and cause slow every 5th hit are debuffs which is another kind of WvW/PvP support as it slows an enemies damage output.

One of the biggest issues with both expansions is support builds doing lots of damage, not every elite spec needs to have damage, support and defence, the concept of a weaver wanting more support on their skills and traits is silly so the reverse should likewise be true that a support specialisation wanting a high damage build should be silly.

Edit: if ANet does decide to give in and let chrono have a top level PvE build there’s no reason a skill split cannot be done increasing the crit damage of danger time, removing the ICD and upping the damage on lost time and likewise the damage on time catches up. This has the effect of buffing only chrono and putting out a generally rare condition in large amounts, slow.

Every single elite (and core as well) should have an optimal dps build in PvE. EVERY SINGLE ELITE. In fact every single elite should support a power, support and condi build.

I guess we just differ in opinion over whether elite specs should have the ability to do 3 distinct roles. Also there’s more to the game than just PvE.

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mortrialus.3062

mortrialus.3062

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@otto.5684 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

If some variant of Power Mesmer is going to be a thing in PvE, it's real weird for almost half their damage to to come from one trait and one heal skill. It's not good design and worth reexamining power mesmer and spreading that damage elsewhere. Also when everyone in this thread is saying "kitten you and kitten everyone who PvPs" it doesn't do a lot to exactly endear them and their concerns about a build they like to me. Part of me would like to see Power Chrono nerfed in PvE out of spite just because of the people in this thread expressing that sentiment.

The visual noise is also still just as ugly in PvE as it is in PvP.

I agree that the damage could be scattered among other skills and reduce the visual noise. But until anet figures that out, I would rather it stay the way it is in PvE.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

The thing is chrono is already top level support, 4/6 of its utility skills are support (5 if you count break bar and mob clumping from GW) and most its traits combo into allowing quicker actions funnelling into more support. Even the slow on interrupt and cause slow every 5th hit are debuffs which is another kind of WvW/PvP support as it slows an enemies damage output.

One of the biggest issues with both expansions is support builds doing lots of damage, not every elite spec needs to have damage, support and defence, the concept of a weaver wanting more support on their skills and traits is silly so the reverse should likewise be true that a support specialisation wanting a high damage build should be silly.

Edit: if ANet does decide to give in and let chrono have a top level PvE build there’s no reason a skill split cannot be done increasing the crit damage of danger time, removing the ICD and upping the damage on lost time and likewise the damage on time catches up. This has the effect of buffing only chrono and putting out a generally rare condition in large amounts, slow.

Every single elite (and core as well) should have an optimal dps build in PvE. EVERY SINGLE ELITE. In fact every single elite should support a power, support and condi build.

35K dps druids would be pure goofballery.

That literally defeats the purpose of them being specializations, that you know, are specialized to do different things.

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otto.5684

otto.5684

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@apharma.3741 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

If some variant of Power Mesmer is going to be a thing in PvE, it's real weird for almost half their damage to to come from one trait and one heal skill. It's not good design and worth reexamining power mesmer and spreading that damage elsewhere. Also when everyone in this thread is saying "kitten you and kitten everyone who PvPs" it doesn't do a lot to exactly endear them and their concerns about a build they like to me. Part of me would like to see Power Chrono nerfed in PvE out of spite just because of the people in this thread expressing that sentiment.

The visual noise is also still just as ugly in PvE as it is in PvP.

I agree that the damage could be scattered among other skills and reduce the visual noise. But until anet figures that out, I would rather it stay the way it is in PvE.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

The thing is chrono is already top level support, 4/6 of its utility skills are support (5 if you count break bar and mob clumping from GW) and most its traits combo into allowing quicker actions funnelling into more support. Even the slow on interrupt and cause slow every 5th hit are debuffs which is another kind of WvW/PvP support as it slows an enemies damage output.

One of the biggest issues with both expansions is support builds doing lots of damage, not every elite spec needs to have damage, support and defence, the concept of a weaver wanting more support on their skills and traits is silly so the reverse should likewise be true that a support specialisation wanting a high damage build should be silly.

Edit: if ANet does decide to give in and let chrono have a top level PvE build there’s no reason a skill split cannot be done increasing the crit damage of danger time, removing the ICD and upping the damage on lost time and likewise the damage on time catches up. This has the effect of buffing only chrono and putting out a generally rare condition in large amounts, slow.

Every single elite (and core as well) should have an optimal dps build in PvE. EVERY SINGLE ELITE. In fact every single elite should support a power, support and condi build.

I guess we just differ in opinion over whether elite specs should have the ability to do 3 distinct roles. Also there’s more to the game than just PvE.

Before HoT release the 5 trait lines classes had were supposed to provide power, condi and support builds for each class. If we start branching these out to elites, then we are doing good nothing than diluting what we already. This is an issue. In my opinion, anet did much rehashing by either stripping core or HoT elites of one function and adding it to a PoF elite, or just power creeping a function the class already used to fulfil under a different build.

Chrono line as it currently stands is one of the best designed lines that can fulfill multiple roles. This is good design.

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otto.5684

otto.5684

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

If some variant of Power Mesmer is going to be a thing in PvE, it's real weird for almost half their damage to to come from one trait and one heal skill. It's not good design and worth reexamining power mesmer and spreading that damage elsewhere. Also when everyone in this thread is saying "kitten you and kitten everyone who PvPs" it doesn't do a lot to exactly endear them and their concerns about a build they like to me. Part of me would like to see Power Chrono nerfed in PvE out of spite just because of the people in this thread expressing that sentiment.

The visual noise is also still just as ugly in PvE as it is in PvP.

I agree that the damage could be scattered among other skills and reduce the visual noise. But until anet figures that out, I would rather it stay the way it is in PvE.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

The thing is chrono is already top level support, 4/6 of its utility skills are support (5 if you count break bar and mob clumping from GW) and most its traits combo into allowing quicker actions funnelling into more support. Even the slow on interrupt and cause slow every 5th hit are debuffs which is another kind of WvW/PvP support as it slows an enemies damage output.

One of the biggest issues with both expansions is support builds doing lots of damage, not every elite spec needs to have damage, support and defence, the concept of a weaver wanting more support on their skills and traits is silly so the reverse should likewise be true that a support specialisation wanting a high damage build should be silly.

Edit: if ANet does decide to give in and let chrono have a top level PvE build there’s no reason a skill split cannot be done increasing the crit damage of danger time, removing the ICD and upping the damage on lost time and likewise the damage on time catches up. This has the effect of buffing only chrono and putting out a generally rare condition in large amounts, slow.

Every single elite (and core as well) should have an optimal dps build in PvE. EVERY SINGLE ELITE. In fact every single elite should support a power, support and condi build.

35K dps druids would be pure goofballery.

That literally defeats the purpose of them being specializations, that you know, are
specialized to do different things
.

It would be if they can pump huge support while dishing 35k dps. If it is either or, then what is the issue?

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eldenbri.1059

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SummarySince the devs seem to be discussing mesmer now and this thread has wandered a bit at times, I'm going to try to summarize it.
I think _generally _we there is agreement on these things:

  • No one wants the level of visual clutter that is currently possible. No one sees a need to go below the historical base of three active illusions (having illusions out is part of mesmer identity)
  • Changing staff to single phantasm is ok as long as there's a balancing adjustment (probably including making 2 clones)
  • Changing Imagined Burden to not create a second GS phantasm is ok as long as there's a balancing adjustment
  • Most people would prefer to leave shield phantasm as is since it doesn't create two phantasms simultaneously and has interesting mechanics
  • To reduce visual clutter, there are a few options. The biggest change is to remove phantasms entirely and change all the skills and associated traits. The smallest change is just to change Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether (potentially including some related trait changes like Persistence of Memory)

There is not universal agreement on if or how much damage needs to be adjusted and whether this should be split across game modes. And it's likely that this is not something that would ever get broad agreement. It does seem like there's a sense that some phantasms still hit too hard in pvp, but that is a pretty subjective assessment by me of only a few comments (and a couple hundred posts in the general feedback thread... lol).

If anyone wants to add to this summary, please feel free to do so. My impression is that this conversation has mostly run it's course, so I'd like to leave something concise for the devs. Thanks to everyone who helped move the topic forward!

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mortrialus.3062

mortrialus.3062

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@otto.5684 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

If some variant of Power Mesmer is going to be a thing in PvE, it's real weird for almost half their damage to to come from one trait and one heal skill. It's not good design and worth reexamining power mesmer and spreading that damage elsewhere. Also when everyone in this thread is saying "kitten you and kitten everyone who PvPs" it doesn't do a lot to exactly endear them and their concerns about a build they like to me. Part of me would like to see Power Chrono nerfed in PvE out of spite just because of the people in this thread expressing that sentiment.

The visual noise is also still just as ugly in PvE as it is in PvP.

I agree that the damage could be scattered among other skills and reduce the visual noise. But until anet figures that out, I would rather it stay the way it is in PvE.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

The thing is chrono is already top level support, 4/6 of its utility skills are support (5 if you count break bar and mob clumping from GW) and most its traits combo into allowing quicker actions funnelling into more support. Even the slow on interrupt and cause slow every 5th hit are debuffs which is another kind of WvW/PvP support as it slows an enemies damage output.

One of the biggest issues with both expansions is support builds doing lots of damage, not every elite spec needs to have damage, support and defence, the concept of a weaver wanting more support on their skills and traits is silly so the reverse should likewise be true that a support specialisation wanting a high damage build should be silly.

Edit: if ANet does decide to give in and let chrono have a top level PvE build there’s no reason a skill split cannot be done increasing the crit damage of danger time, removing the ICD and upping the damage on lost time and likewise the damage on time catches up. This has the effect of buffing only chrono and putting out a generally rare condition in large amounts, slow.

Every single elite (and core as well) should have an optimal dps build in PvE. EVERY SINGLE ELITE. In fact every single elite should support a power, support and condi build.

35K dps druids would be pure goofballery.

That literally defeats the purpose of them being specializations, that you know, are
specialized to do different things
.

It would be if they can pump huge support while dishing 35k dps. If it is either or, then what is the issue?
  1. It would be a nightmare to balance.
  2. If every single specialization, elite or otherwise, are all capable of doing anything then it completely defeats the purpose of elite specializations. You'd end up with a situation like later years World of Warcraft where every class, spec has no distinct personality or flavor because every one does everything to the exact same degree. That Druid is uniquely focused as a spec dedicated towards ranger healing and little else is what makes it super cool. Chronomancer, being a unique elite spec that can provide the mesmer and ally with permanent quickness and alacrity and putting a lot of slow on enemies is part of what makes it super cool.
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otto.5684

otto.5684

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

If some variant of Power Mesmer is going to be a thing in PvE, it's real weird for almost half their damage to to come from one trait and one heal skill. It's not good design and worth reexamining power mesmer and spreading that damage elsewhere. Also when everyone in this thread is saying "kitten you and kitten everyone who PvPs" it doesn't do a lot to exactly endear them and their concerns about a build they like to me. Part of me would like to see Power Chrono nerfed in PvE out of spite just because of the people in this thread expressing that sentiment.

The visual noise is also still just as ugly in PvE as it is in PvP.

I agree that the damage could be scattered among other skills and reduce the visual noise. But until anet figures that out, I would rather it stay the way it is in PvE.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

The thing is chrono is already top level support, 4/6 of its utility skills are support (5 if you count break bar and mob clumping from GW) and most its traits combo into allowing quicker actions funnelling into more support. Even the slow on interrupt and cause slow every 5th hit are debuffs which is another kind of WvW/PvP support as it slows an enemies damage output.

One of the biggest issues with both expansions is support builds doing lots of damage, not every elite spec needs to have damage, support and defence, the concept of a weaver wanting more support on their skills and traits is silly so the reverse should likewise be true that a support specialisation wanting a high damage build should be silly.

Edit: if ANet does decide to give in and let chrono have a top level PvE build there’s no reason a skill split cannot be done increasing the crit damage of danger time, removing the ICD and upping the damage on lost time and likewise the damage on time catches up. This has the effect of buffing only chrono and putting out a generally rare condition in large amounts, slow.

Every single elite (and core as well) should have an optimal dps build in PvE. EVERY SINGLE ELITE. In fact every single elite should support a power, support and condi build.

35K dps druids would be pure goofballery.

That literally defeats the purpose of them being specializations, that you know, are
specialized to do different things
.

It would be if they can pump huge support while dishing 35k dps. If it is either or, then what is the issue?
  1. It would be a nightmare to balance.
  2. If every single specialization, elite or otherwise, are all capable of doing anything then it completely defeats the purpose of elite specializations. You'd end up with a situation like later years World of Warcraft where every class, spec has no distinct personality or flavor because every one does everything to the exact same degree. That Druid is uniquely focused as a spec dedicated towards ranger healing and little else is what makes it super cool. Chronomancer, being a unique elite spec that can provide the mesmer and ally with permanent quickness and alacrity and putting a lot of slow on enemies is part of what makes it super cool.

I have not played wow, but in GW2 pre expansions we already had classes fulfilling all three roles. Elites are supposed to create different play styles, NOT different functions. If we go your way it will be stripping the a role the class already can do, lump into an elite, then power creep to make and call it “new.”

This is absolutely not what should happen.

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mortrialus.3062

mortrialus.3062

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@otto.5684 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

If some variant of Power Mesmer is going to be a thing in PvE, it's real weird for almost half their damage to to come from one trait and one heal skill. It's not good design and worth reexamining power mesmer and spreading that damage elsewhere. Also when everyone in this thread is saying "kitten you and kitten everyone who PvPs" it doesn't do a lot to exactly endear them and their concerns about a build they like to me. Part of me would like to see Power Chrono nerfed in PvE out of spite just because of the people in this thread expressing that sentiment.

The visual noise is also still just as ugly in PvE as it is in PvP.

I agree that the damage could be scattered among other skills and reduce the visual noise. But until anet figures that out, I would rather it stay the way it is in PvE.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Avoiding PvP for a second what is the logical reason behind nerfing a functional PvE build?! When you say who cares, I do and the majority of Mesmer players. There is no reason at all chrono power dps should not be strong.

As for PvP, ya chrono can dump a lot of phanatsms. It makes more sense to have a PvP split change. Maybe putting ICD on the trait in PvP only.

The thing is chrono is already top level support, 4/6 of its utility skills are support (5 if you count break bar and mob clumping from GW) and most its traits combo into allowing quicker actions funnelling into more support. Even the slow on interrupt and cause slow every 5th hit are debuffs which is another kind of WvW/PvP support as it slows an enemies damage output.

One of the biggest issues with both expansions is support builds doing lots of damage, not every elite spec needs to have damage, support and defence, the concept of a weaver wanting more support on their skills and traits is silly so the reverse should likewise be true that a support specialisation wanting a high damage build should be silly.

Edit: if ANet does decide to give in and let chrono have a top level PvE build there’s no reason a skill split cannot be done increasing the crit damage of danger time, removing the ICD and upping the damage on lost time and likewise the damage on time catches up. This has the effect of buffing only chrono and putting out a generally rare condition in large amounts, slow.

Every single elite (and core as well) should have an optimal dps build in PvE. EVERY SINGLE ELITE. In fact every single elite should support a power, support and condi build.

35K dps druids would be pure goofballery.

That literally defeats the purpose of them being specializations, that you know, are
specialized to do different things
.

It would be if they can pump huge support while dishing 35k dps. If it is either or, then what is the issue?
  1. It would be a nightmare to balance.
  2. If every single specialization, elite or otherwise, are all capable of doing anything then it completely defeats the purpose of elite specializations. You'd end up with a situation like later years World of Warcraft where every class, spec has no distinct personality or flavor because every one does everything to the exact same degree. That Druid is uniquely focused as a spec dedicated towards ranger healing and little else is what makes it super cool. Chronomancer, being a unique elite spec that can provide the mesmer and ally with permanent quickness and alacrity and putting a lot of slow on enemies is part of what makes it super cool.

I have not played wow, but in GW2 pre expansions we already had classes fulfilling all three roles. Elites are supposed to create different play styles, NOT different functions. If we go your way it will be stripping the a role the class already can do, lump into an elite, then power creep to make and call it “new.”

This is absolutely not what should happen.

Every class could not fullfill every role. Ever. Every class has some level of support, damage, and control. But thieves providing poisons to buff their party's damage, or partywide stealth, and guardians having their F2 and F3 skills heal and grant aegis to allies, is entirely different from Druid being a spec devoted to healing in a way ranger had never been able to before.

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RabbitUp.8294

RabbitUp.8294

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@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill
straight up quadruple
their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait
straight up quadruple
quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma
is
balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple
ANY
ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

So, are you just lying in our face now? When you dodge, you get 1 ambush attack. With Infinite Horizon, you get 4 ambush attacks. How is that not quadrupling the damage output?

And the second part, that is literally what I'm saying, if my point went more over your head, it would be in orbit now. The fact that a mechanic can be quadrupled by a trait, not even a heal skill is needed, and still remain balanced because the initial numbers are balanced with the trait in mind, means that the problem is not the quadrupling, but the whole "fight-ending potential" of phantasms.

And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage. PvE Power Chrono in is a gross aberration because one heal skill and one trait add about 12k DPS to the build. There is nothing else in the entire game where one trait and one heal with that much power loaded into it. It's like if Grace of the Land had an issue that combined with We He As One made them a better DPS build than a majority of damage orientated elite specs in the game. At the very least, you have to admit it's really weird.

[benchmarks needed]

If you want to talk dps, first link to a video that proves your point.

I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live.

What are firebrand and renegade supposed to be? Because they can play suppor, and also play dps. And guardian in particular already has dragonhunter as a dps spec.I've never even heard of Renegade Support. Like Renegade has team based buffs, but those buffs are all damage orientated. It's like calling Condition Daredevil a support spec.I've also never even heard of Firebrand running support outside of PvP. But Guardian's F2 and F3 skills are inherently designed to support allies. The core of guardian is built to inherently support allies. While dragonhunter is a selfish DPS spec, firebrand continuing with Guardian's inherent support isn't that weird.

Renegade can play as healer/alacrity support, and it's a straight upgrade from base or herald in that regard, both for the healing and alacrity output.

And FB is
the
support when it comes to wvw, of course continuing in base guardian's footsteps. And it would be a meta support in pve, too, it's just that chrono does the job better. You can still play it as support regardless, even if it's not a meta build.

So, yeah, how about that argument that specs don't have multiple roles and that somehow chrono playing as dps is a problem?

Condi damage and power damage never compete in anet's eyes. The fact that mirage is a condi spec doesn't mean mesmer is covered dps-wise. The real reason for them to nerf power chrono would be so they can sell a dedicated power dps spec next expansion, like they did with tempest and condi reaper.Condi damage and power damage are always competing. There have been multiple statements across years of the game that power is suppsosed provide instant burst damage while condition damage is supposed to have higher sustained damage with more ramp. We had a patch a few months ago where almost all condition damage attacks had their intensity stacks halved and their duration doubled explicitly to give power damage and condition damage more clear niches and divides.

For someone that claims to be knowledgable in pve, you sure are not very in touch with it. Yes, the 2 damage types are supposed to have their own niches, but they don't.

You said that condi specs are designed for raids, yet if you looked at what comps are being run, power is doing more than fine, and not just weaver. Really, the only time you see the majority of dps roles filled by condi is when a speedclear group is stacking scourges for epi bounces.

The condi rebalancing you mention was meant to trim condi's burst and it was aimed more at pvp/wvw that it was for pve. In pve, the dps remained unchanged, while the ramp-up time was already noticeable before the patch and became a bit more after it. Certain raid encounters still encourage burst damage by utilising phases and condi cleanse, and outside of raids power is king, so a class having access to both damage types is very relevant.

So, like I said before, mirage being a thing doesn't cover mesmer's dps needs.

And a bit unrelated, how is chrono easier to play than most builds? It has some tricky timings, like y using CS during Ether's aftercast and you have to keep track of your Compounding Power and Finesse stacks, when there are builds that literally do little more than autoattack. It's not weaver, but don't act like you are purging the game of a brainless build.PvP Chronobunker is pure faceroll. I'm not talking about the PvE DPS version. Like yeah, with Chrono there's always some finesse with Continuum Split but that's about it.

This is your exact post "I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations."

How are you talking about pvp chronobunker here?

I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play.

Removing options from pve is the exact opposite of fun.Sometimes things can be fun, AND unhealthy.

Yes, but pve power chrono is not one of them.

Infinite Horizon does give you 3 more ambush attacks simultaneously true, but the output of them is not the same as 4x the damage. For example, IH Axe Ambush only gives 6 more stacks of torment from the clones, the player version also gives 6 stacks so only a 2x improvement. Scepter gives 4x the conditions yes but 75% of them have 50% reduced duration so the output is still somewhere around 2x improvement. As for the power improvement of Sword and GS ambushes, clone damage is less than player damage I don't know the exact ratio but still it's nowhere near 4x improvement. The only weapon that does get a 4x improvement is Staff, but Chaos Vortex isn't exactly a guaranteed hit.

Axes was changed post-launch, I believe clones used to get the same version originally. Phantasms are not guaranteed hits either, so chaos vortex not being one doesn't mean much. And Axes being "only" a 2x increase is still equal to Chronophantasma, because CP is only a 2x increase by itself, too.

And we've had similar suggestions for Chronophantasma that doesn't require destryoing the trait for pve: make the second phantasms lesser versions of the first, allowing a clean split for the 2 game modes. Less damage for all in pvp, and maybe no taunt at all for the second defender since pve doesn't really need it anyway.

The argument that Chronophantasma is mechanically flawed and it's not an issue of tweaking the numbers doesn't stand. Visual clutter is a different issue.

Let’s say you are fighting a mesmer, they summon disenchanter, you dodge the first, run behind some boxes to LoS the second which trots up to you, you kill it. Meanwhile the mesmer summons another clone and sends it to shatter so you block that. Then they summon 2 more phantasms, one from each weapon but they’re staggered, it’s fortunate this mesmer was bad enough to summon one into block so you block one hit and dodge behind some boxes again. Swap weapon to get a dodge back quicker but you lost the cap.

The other way this plays out is you don’t LoS and the resummoning of phantasms burn through your defences like a fire at a timber yard, you don’t want to get hit by a disenchanter, you can probably tank a hit from a weapon phantasm but you still have 5 more attacks to avoid and this is assuming no CS or SotE shenanigans. Add those into the mix and you not only have a lot of visual clutter but a lot of attacks to avoid, this is the crucial aspect of the build, it burns through defences quite rapidly at range and getting close to the mesmer is very dangerous as shatters still hurt as well as more chaos storms flying around.

While I could see CP staying I do think the trait would be a reoccurring issue in the long term especially when base line chrono has F5 to double down on the resummoning which would see a redesign of either CS or CP.

Edit: if you want DPS chrono to be a thing there are much easier and better splits to do, adjust the bonus damage from danger time to be more in PvE, remove the ICD on lost time in PvE, just these two would be a significant buff with mesmer getting perma slow on targets. It also means mesmer can get and maintain a 50% crit chance on its own with duelling and chrono which should benefit every skill it uses so will upgrade to berserker gear. If you want skills splits it’s better to have small increases all over the place for PvE than to have massive differences, if you’ve ever duelled as or against a mesmer in the guild hall you’ll know how much of a bad joke mesmer PvE split it.

@OriOri.8724 I forgot to mention, I really liked that idea of condition cleanse per illusion on SotE, was a very good reason too.

This is under the assumption that phantasms are super heavy-hitting skills so that you have to dodge/block/LoS all of them. This is not LoL, no matter who you are fighting, they will pressure you and you have to mitigate ther damage, phantasms are no different.

If anything, against mesmer you have the added option of cleaving the phantasms down or ccing them, when you can't do that against regular skills other classes have.

They don’t have to be “super heavy hitting”, most phantasms will take 3-5k off your health, that means 4-6 phantasms would kill you and this is the absolute most conservative estimate to give you as much benefit of the doubt, the reality is that it is closer to the 5k damage and 4 hits area. At the moment you can summon at least 9 in a cascade and you have your regular shatters and weapon skills to use, the point is you burn through someone’s defences with phantasms, creating a ton of AI entities that make seeing what happens a mess and
you still have regular weapon skills to use on top of this and shatters.

Yes you can kill phantasms which you can’t on other classes but likewise other classes cannot reuse a powerful attack over and over again in a short time frame, except thief. I don’t want a return to the time when phantasm attacks were largely useless, I want those skills to do good damage and hit reliably.

There are autos that can deal 3k, are you suggesting we should add cooldown to those, too? And phantasms have 1s cast time each, on top of sotE cast time, you are not summoning 4-6 of them instantly.

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RabbitUp.8294

RabbitUp.8294

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill
straight up quadruple
their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait
straight up quadruple
quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma
is
balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple
ANY
ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

So, are you just lying in our face now? When you dodge, you get 1 ambush attack. With Infinite Horizon, you get 4 ambush attacks. How is that not quadrupling the damage output?

This is a blatant false equivalency and you know it. If you're not going to argue in good faith you can go ahead and never talk to me again because you aren't worth talking to.

No, it's not. It doesn't become false equivalency because you say it is. You have provided no argument, just a statement.

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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

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Posted

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill
straight up quadruple
their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait
straight up quadruple
quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma
is
balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple
ANY
ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

So, are you just lying in our face now? When you dodge, you get 1 ambush attack. With Infinite Horizon, you get 4 ambush attacks. How is that not quadrupling the damage output?

And the second part, that is literally what I'm saying, if my point went more over your head, it would be in orbit now. The fact that a mechanic can be quadrupled by a trait, not even a heal skill is needed, and still remain balanced because the initial numbers are balanced with the trait in mind, means that the problem is not the quadrupling, but the whole "fight-ending potential" of phantasms.

And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage. PvE Power Chrono in is a gross aberration because one heal skill and one trait add about 12k DPS to the build. There is nothing else in the entire game where one trait and one heal with that much power loaded into it. It's like if Grace of the Land had an issue that combined with We He As One made them a better DPS build than a majority of damage orientated elite specs in the game. At the very least, you have to admit it's really weird.

[benchmarks needed]

If you want to talk dps, first link to a video that proves your point.

I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live.

What are firebrand and renegade supposed to be? Because they can play suppor, and also play dps. And guardian in particular already has dragonhunter as a dps spec.I've never even heard of Renegade Support. Like Renegade has team based buffs, but those buffs are all damage orientated. It's like calling Condition Daredevil a support spec.I've also never even heard of Firebrand running support outside of PvP. But Guardian's F2 and F3 skills are inherently designed to support allies. The core of guardian is built to inherently support allies. While dragonhunter is a selfish DPS spec, firebrand continuing with Guardian's inherent support isn't that weird.

Renegade can play as healer/alacrity support, and it's a straight upgrade from base or herald in that regard, both for the healing and alacrity output.

And FB is
the
support when it comes to wvw, of course continuing in base guardian's footsteps. And it would be a meta support in pve, too, it's just that chrono does the job better. You can still play it as support regardless, even if it's not a meta build.

So, yeah, how about that argument that specs don't have multiple roles and that somehow chrono playing as dps is a problem?

Condi damage and power damage never compete in anet's eyes. The fact that mirage is a condi spec doesn't mean mesmer is covered dps-wise. The real reason for them to nerf power chrono would be so they can sell a dedicated power dps spec next expansion, like they did with tempest and condi reaper.Condi damage and power damage are always competing. There have been multiple statements across years of the game that power is suppsosed provide instant burst damage while condition damage is supposed to have higher sustained damage with more ramp. We had a patch a few months ago where almost all condition damage attacks had their intensity stacks halved and their duration doubled explicitly to give power damage and condition damage more clear niches and divides.

For someone that claims to be knowledgable in pve, you sure are not very in touch with it. Yes, the 2 damage types are supposed to have their own niches, but they don't.

You said that condi specs are designed for raids, yet if you looked at what comps are being run, power is doing more than fine, and not just weaver. Really, the only time you see the majority of dps roles filled by condi is when a speedclear group is stacking scourges for epi bounces.

The condi rebalancing you mention was meant to trim condi's burst and it was aimed more at pvp/wvw that it was for pve. In pve, the dps remained unchanged, while the ramp-up time was already noticeable before the patch and became a bit more after it. Certain raid encounters still encourage burst damage by utilising phases and condi cleanse, and outside of raids power is king, so a class having access to both damage types is very relevant.

So, like I said before, mirage being a thing doesn't cover mesmer's dps needs.

And a bit unrelated, how is chrono easier to play than most builds? It has some tricky timings, like y using CS during Ether's aftercast and you have to keep track of your Compounding Power and Finesse stacks, when there are builds that literally do little more than autoattack. It's not weaver, but don't act like you are purging the game of a brainless build.PvP Chronobunker is pure faceroll. I'm not talking about the PvE DPS version. Like yeah, with Chrono there's always some finesse with Continuum Split but that's about it.

This is your exact post "I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations."

How are you talking about pvp chronobunker here?

I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play.

Removing options from pve is the exact opposite of fun.Sometimes things can be fun, AND unhealthy.

Yes, but pve power chrono is not one of them.

Infinite Horizon does give you 3 more ambush attacks simultaneously true, but the output of them is not the same as 4x the damage. For example, IH Axe Ambush only gives 6 more stacks of torment from the clones, the player version also gives 6 stacks so only a 2x improvement. Scepter gives 4x the conditions yes but 75% of them have 50% reduced duration so the output is still somewhere around 2x improvement. As for the power improvement of Sword and GS ambushes, clone damage is less than player damage I don't know the exact ratio but still it's nowhere near 4x improvement. The only weapon that does get a 4x improvement is Staff, but Chaos Vortex isn't exactly a guaranteed hit.

Axes was changed post-launch, I believe clones used to get the same version originally. Phantasms are not guaranteed hits either, so chaos vortex not being one doesn't mean much. And Axes being "only" a 2x increase is still equal to Chronophantasma, because CP is only a 2x increase by itself, too.

And we've had similar suggestions for Chronophantasma that doesn't require destryoing the trait for pve: make the second phantasms lesser versions of the first, allowing a clean split for the 2 game modes. Less damage for all in pvp, and maybe no taunt at all for the second defender since pve doesn't really need it anyway.

The argument that Chronophantasma is mechanically flawed and it's not an issue of tweaking the numbers doesn't stand. Visual clutter is a different issue.

Let’s say you are fighting a mesmer, they summon disenchanter, you dodge the first, run behind some boxes to LoS the second which trots up to you, you kill it. Meanwhile the mesmer summons another clone and sends it to shatter so you block that. Then they summon 2 more phantasms, one from each weapon but they’re staggered, it’s fortunate this mesmer was bad enough to summon one into block so you block one hit and dodge behind some boxes again. Swap weapon to get a dodge back quicker but you lost the cap.

The other way this plays out is you don’t LoS and the resummoning of phantasms burn through your defences like a fire at a timber yard, you don’t want to get hit by a disenchanter, you can probably tank a hit from a weapon phantasm but you still have 5 more attacks to avoid and this is assuming no CS or SotE shenanigans. Add those into the mix and you not only have a lot of visual clutter but a lot of attacks to avoid, this is the crucial aspect of the build, it burns through defences quite rapidly at range and getting close to the mesmer is very dangerous as shatters still hurt as well as more chaos storms flying around.

While I could see CP staying I do think the trait would be a reoccurring issue in the long term especially when base line chrono has F5 to double down on the resummoning which would see a redesign of either CS or CP.

Edit: if you want DPS chrono to be a thing there are much easier and better splits to do, adjust the bonus damage from danger time to be more in PvE, remove the ICD on lost time in PvE, just these two would be a significant buff with mesmer getting perma slow on targets. It also means mesmer can get and maintain a 50% crit chance on its own with duelling and chrono which should benefit every skill it uses so will upgrade to berserker gear. If you want skills splits it’s better to have small increases all over the place for PvE than to have massive differences, if you’ve ever duelled as or against a mesmer in the guild hall you’ll know how much of a bad joke mesmer PvE split it.

@OriOri.8724 I forgot to mention, I really liked that idea of condition cleanse per illusion on SotE, was a very good reason too.

This is under the assumption that phantasms are super heavy-hitting skills so that you have to dodge/block/LoS all of them. This is not LoL, no matter who you are fighting, they will pressure you and you have to mitigate ther damage, phantasms are no different.

If anything, against mesmer you have the added option of cleaving the phantasms down or ccing them, when you can't do that against regular skills other classes have.

They don’t have to be “super heavy hitting”, most phantasms will take 3-5k off your health, that means 4-6 phantasms would kill you and this is the absolute most conservative estimate to give you as much benefit of the doubt, the reality is that it is closer to the 5k damage and 4 hits area. At the moment you can summon at least 9 in a cascade and you have your regular shatters and weapon skills to use, the point is you burn through someone’s defences with phantasms, creating a ton of AI entities that make seeing what happens a mess and
you still have regular weapon skills to use on top of this and shatters.

Yes you can kill phantasms which you can’t on other classes but likewise other classes cannot reuse a powerful attack over and over again in a short time frame, except thief. I don’t want a return to the time when phantasm attacks were largely useless, I want those skills to do good damage and hit reliably.

There are autos that can deal 3k, are you suggesting we should add cooldown to those, too? And phantasms have 1s cast time each, on top of sotE cast time, you are not summoning 4-6 of them instantly.

I said most are closer to 5k and certainly in WvW most are in the 5-7k spectrum and they can all be used at 1200 range. There’s only one auto attack that comes close to that level of damage at range so your analogy is poor at best.

No one said about summoning them instantly, go back and read, it’s about the repeated summoning through CP and repeated cool down resetting via SotE and to a lesser extent CS.

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mortrialus.3062

mortrialus.3062

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@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill
straight up quadruple
their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait
straight up quadruple
quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma
is
balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple
ANY
ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

So, are you just lying in our face now? When you dodge, you get 1 ambush attack. With Infinite Horizon, you get 4 ambush attacks. How is that not quadrupling the damage output?

This is a blatant false equivalency and you know it. If you're not going to argue in good faith you can go ahead and never talk to me again because you aren't worth talking to.

No, it's not. It doesn't become false equivalency because you say it is. You have provided no argument, just a statement.

Just do the math. All of the clone ambushes do a fraction of the damage the Mirage's ambush does. It literally says how much of a fraction in the skill descriptions.

If you had any understanding of anything or any argument to stand on, you wouldn't have to resort to straight up lying.

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Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

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It's interesting to me that this is such a big deal.

Because, let's face it:

  • In WvW phantasms don't matter, they die before they can execute their attacks due to the AE spam. WvW as a whole is an underdesigned mess which would need massive reworks, individual class design isn't even on the horizon of issues the mode faces.
  • In PvE Mesmers are alright for damage now, but barring bugs we can exploit, we never keep up with the big boys at the top. Plus no one ever wants a Mesmer to play DPS because boon-sharing, so it hardly matters how much damage we can do. Though it's not like balance feels purposely designed tbh, more like they randomly throw numbers out and hope they just happen to hit a spot where things work out.
  • (special case) In non-raid PvE it doesn't matter because Phantasms don't get to execute their attacks before the enemies are dead. If anything, Phantasms need another rework here to be relevant in the first place, though I'd argue it's more a failing of the power creep which started with HoT.
  • In sPvP... oh, all 25 remaining players are angry? Damn. - sorry, without the jab, sPvP is just not relevant enough any more in a game this old and with how tiny the mode is. Yes, years ago when they could have done big class reworks and then split off balance entirely (compare FF14 or WoW) it would have been important to talk about this. But the ship has sailed. Players who are "serious" about team vs team combat play aren't going to be playing GW2 sPvP for it, there's whole genres for nothing but this now, with companies dedicating 100% of their time to it.

Or in short: There's bigger fish to fry. Overall game balance is so bad, individual classes should not be looked at for balance reasons. Which isn't to say that design shouldn't be looked at, but in the context of overall changes. Phantasms are such a non-issue. In fact I'd argue the whole rework was a waste because again, there's far bigger issues. I like the rework on a design level, I think it solved a big problem where the Shatter <-> Clones <-> Phantasms triangle just was hampering itself instead of working together as a class mechanic, but it shouldn't have been tackled when overall issues affecting all classes are as common as they are, nevermind bigger per-class design issues.

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OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

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I have to disagree. Yes, overall game balance is horrible, but a large part of that (not all mind you) does come from individual class designs being overbearing. Many elite specs still have problems with bringing everything in a single traitline (which is a huge source of the poor overall design right now). Many skills and traits suffer from doing way too many things at once, and class mechanics on some classes are some of the worst offenders (FC, fully traited shatters, fully traited steal).

Boon and condi spam are real. CC spam is overtuned to a huge amount. AoE spam is out of control. Yes, these are game wide problems, but they can also be addressed by fixing individual classes.

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Levetty.1279

Levetty.1279

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  • Ignoring how the points you are making about CP also apply to IH
  • Using the same arguments to defend IH that people are making about CP while ignoring them when used in defense of CP
  • Ignoring that people are pointing out to you that SoE not CP is causing the problem you are complaining about
  • Saying that a PvP/PvE split isn't good enough, it needs to be removed from both modes
  • Complaining that Chrono can be built for DPS even though it can't support at the same time and demanding that the DPS build be removed entirely.

Doesn't sound like you are trying to balance PvP here.

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Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

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Oh, I think I expressed my concerns badly then, @"OriOri.8724". Because when I said "overall design issues", I meant things such as overloaded effects and overall traitline issues - I meant overall because these affect all classes similarly.

The overload of effects is probably the core of how spammy gameplay is. It precludes individual effects from being truly powerful if half the skills in the game produce that effect as a byproduct.

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mortrialus.3062

mortrialus.3062

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@"Levetty.1279" said:

  • Ignoring how the points you are making about CP also apply to IHIf you ignore literally everything about it.

  • Using the same arguments to defend IH that people are making about CP while ignoring them when used in defense of CP

On a power build you can expect Mirage Thrust to do about 2,000 damage on a critical strike. Clones will critically strike for abou 40 with Mirage Thrust. Not 4,000. Not 400. 40.

That means the increase in Mirage Thrust's damage output with Infinite Horizon is 6%.

Split Surge will typically do about 4,000 damage on Berserker Stats. Clone Spatial surge ranged from 400-700. This means that with three clones Spatial Surge gets an extremely high balled damage increase of 52%. Leagues better than 6% but a far cry away from 400%.

The next few skills are calculated using viper's gear with renegade ruins, Signet of Midnight and Signet of Domination as the bulk of their damage is condition based. I'm also using the axe trait.

Imaginary Axes has the physical component of it's attack, which on viper's gear ranges from 350-550 plus the additional 272 damage from the traited portion of the skill. Each axe from the ambush applies three stacks of torment, with a seventh stack from the trait. Torment applied will add up to 3,647 damage. Overall this skill does about 5,000 damage per ambush.

Clones will typically do 40-60 physical damage, plus another 40-60 damage on the traited portion of the attack. However, each axe only does one stack of torment, one third of the player's ambush. Torment damage from the clone damage adds up to 1,309. High balling it, this means that a clone's ambush comes around to about 1489.

This means that three clones will add up to 4,467 damage per ambush attack, or 89% increase in damage. This is definitely better, almost double damage on this one attack. But it's still no where near quadrupling the damage output the way CP+SoE do.

Ether Barrage is hot garbage and I refuse to actually test it fully because of it's extremely unpredictable nature of randomly applying either torment or confusion. The player will about 1,200 physical damage across 5 bolts Phantasm damage does about 105 across all five hits. Condition duration on either condition applied is explicitly half the damage of the mesmer's. In a hypathetical world where scepter get's fixed to replace it's confusion with torment the ambush does about 2445 damage for the player. Clone damage will add up to 725 damage for the ambush, times three equals 2175. Total increase in damage from three clone ambush attacks adds up to 88%.

The only outlier appears to be the staff ambush, Chaos Vortex. And you know what? I have no problem if they halve the condition duration on that one, too.

None of the ambush attacks that actually matter come anywhere near as close to quadrupling the damage output of ambush attacks the way Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether do. Period. End of story. You're lying. You know you're lying. Get bent.

  • Ignoring that people are pointing out to you that SoE not CP is causing the problem you are complaining aboutBoth SoE and Chronophantasma double Phantasm damage. SoE doubles the quantity of phantasms. CP gives them an extra attack and doubles the duration they stick around.

They're both a problem.

  • Saying that a PvP/PvE split isn't good enough, it needs to be removed from both modesWhy should I care about one build you happen to like like among many viable top tier builds when you're straight up saying "Fuck your entire game mode"?
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OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Levetty.1279" said:

  • Ignoring how the points you are making about CP also apply to IHIf you ignore literally everything about it.

  • Using the same arguments to defend IH that people are making about CP while ignoring them when used in defense of CP

On a power build you can expect Mirage Thrust to do about 2,000 damage on a critical strike. Clones will critically strike for abou 40 with Mirage Thrust. Not 4,000. Not 400. 40.

That means the increase in Mirage Thrust's damage output with Infinite Horizon is 6%.

Split Surge will typically do about 4,000 damage on Berserker Stats. Clone Spatial surge ranged from 400-700. This means that with three clones Spatial Surge gets an extremely high balled damage increase of 52%. Leagues better than 6% but a far cry away from 400%.

The next few skills are calculated using viper's gear with renegade ruins, Signet of Midnight and Signet of Domination as the bulk of their damage is condition based. I'm also using the axe trait.

Imaginary Axes has the physical component of it's attack, which on viper's gear ranges from 350-550 plus the additional 272 damage from the traited portion of the skill. Each axe from the ambush applies three stacks of torment, with a seventh stack from the trait. Torment applied will add up to 3,647 damage. Overall this skill does about 5,000 damage per ambush.

Clones will typically do 40-60 physical damage, plus another 40-60 damage on the traited portion of the attack. However, each axe only does one stack of torment, one third of the player's ambush. Torment damage from the clone damage adds up to 1,309. High balling it, this means that a clone's ambush comes around to about 1489.

This means that three clones will add up to 4,467 damage per ambush attack, or 89% increase in damage. This is definitely better, almost double damage on this one attack. But it's still no where near quadrupling the damage output the way CP+SoE do.

Ether Barrage is hot garbage and I refuse to actually test it fully because of it's extremely unpredictable nature of randomly applying either torment or confusion. The player will about 1,200 physical damage across 5 bolts Phantasm damage does about 105 across all five hits. Condition duration on either condition applied is explicitly half the damage of the mesmer's. In a hypathetical world where scepter get's fixed to replace it's confusion with torment the ambush does about 2445 damage for the player. Clone damage will add up to 725 damage for the ambush, times three equals 2175. Total increase in damage from three clone ambush attacks adds up to 88%.

The only outlier appears to be the staff ambush, Chaos Vortex. And you know what? I have no problem if they halve the condition duration on that one, too.

None of the ambush attacks that actually matter come anywhere near as close to quadrupling the damage output of ambush attacks the way Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether do. Period. End of story. You're lying. You know you're lying. Get bent.
  • Ignoring that people are pointing out to you that SoE not CP is causing the problem you are complaining aboutBoth SoE and Chronophantasma double Phantasm damage. SoE doubles the quantity of phantasms. CP gives them an extra attack and doubles the duration they stick around.

They're both a problem.
  • Saying that a PvP/PvE split isn't good enough, it needs to be removed from both modesWhy should I care about one build you happen to like like among many viable top tier builds when you're straight up saying "kitten your entire game mode"?

But clearly you don't understand. There are 3 clones performing the ambush attack with you, so it very clearly means that each ambush attack does quadruple damage

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mortrialus.3062

mortrialus.3062

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@"Levetty.1279" said:

  • Ignoring how the points you are making about CP also apply to IHIf you ignore literally everything about it.

  • Using the same arguments to defend IH that people are making about CP while ignoring them when used in defense of CP

On a power build you can expect Mirage Thrust to do about 2,000 damage on a critical strike. Clones will critically strike for abou 40 with Mirage Thrust. Not 4,000. Not 400. 40.

That means the increase in Mirage Thrust's damage output with Infinite Horizon is 6%.

Split Surge will typically do about 4,000 damage on Berserker Stats. Clone Spatial surge ranged from 400-700. This means that with three clones Spatial Surge gets an extremely high balled damage increase of 52%. Leagues better than 6% but a far cry away from 400%.

The next few skills are calculated using viper's gear with renegade ruins, Signet of Midnight and Signet of Domination as the bulk of their damage is condition based. I'm also using the axe trait.

Imaginary Axes has the physical component of it's attack, which on viper's gear ranges from 350-550 plus the additional 272 damage from the traited portion of the skill. Each axe from the ambush applies three stacks of torment, with a seventh stack from the trait. Torment applied will add up to 3,647 damage. Overall this skill does about 5,000 damage per ambush.

Clones will typically do 40-60 physical damage, plus another 40-60 damage on the traited portion of the attack. However, each axe only does one stack of torment, one third of the player's ambush. Torment damage from the clone damage adds up to 1,309. High balling it, this means that a clone's ambush comes around to about 1489.

This means that three clones will add up to 4,467 damage per ambush attack, or 89% increase in damage. This is definitely better, almost double damage on this one attack. But it's still no where near quadrupling the damage output the way CP+SoE do.

Ether Barrage is hot garbage and I refuse to actually test it fully because of it's extremely unpredictable nature of randomly applying either torment or confusion. The player will about 1,200 physical damage across 5 bolts Phantasm damage does about 105 across all five hits. Condition duration on either condition applied is explicitly half the damage of the mesmer's. In a hypathetical world where scepter get's fixed to replace it's confusion with torment the ambush does about 2445 damage for the player. Clone damage will add up to 725 damage for the ambush, times three equals 2175. Total increase in damage from three clone ambush attacks adds up to 88%.

The only outlier appears to be the staff ambush, Chaos Vortex. And you know what? I have no problem if they halve the condition duration on that one, too.

None of the ambush attacks that actually matter come anywhere near as close to quadrupling the damage output of ambush attacks the way Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether do. Period. End of story. You're lying. You know you're lying. Get bent.
  • Ignoring that people are pointing out to you that SoE not CP is causing the problem you are complaining aboutBoth SoE and Chronophantasma double Phantasm damage. SoE doubles the quantity of phantasms. CP gives them an extra attack and doubles the duration they stick around.

They're both a problem.
  • Saying that a PvP/PvE split isn't good enough, it needs to be removed from both modesWhy should I care about one build you happen to like like among many viable top tier builds when you're straight up saying "kitten your entire game mode"?

But clearly you don't understand. There are 3 clones performing the ambush attack with you, so it very clearly means that each ambush attack does quadruple damage

Look man, it would be really unfortunate if this one build that only existed for about a month and a half in this form and at this level of efficacy was suddenly less top tier. Don't you care about my play style? Or legacy?

Builds come and go and change all the time. Power Warrior was a staple of the game and I played it for years. When I started raiding, I made a Support Chrono and that ended up becoming my main in all modes of play. But Warrior was still a thing I played when needed, same with Power Tempest and Magi Druid. But not long after I started playing, Power Berserker couldn't keep up so I switched to Viper's Berserker. And I still had fun when I played my warrior.

Now, years later, power warrior has had a rework and a resurgence thanks to a few interesting traits and Spell breaker. And that's cool now, too.

Condition Chronomancer was a top tier build in PvP for years. And it was what I cut my teeth on after getting back into GW2 during Heart of Thorns. I really loved the game play and flavor of the build. But with Heart of Thorns it couldn't compete with Mirage in terms of it's condition burst. But I adapted and found joy in Carrion Ineptitude Mirage. Now, Chronomancer is back in PvP and that's super cool. It's just grossly overpowered at the moment but if CS+SoE were removed it would be a solid, viable alternative to Mirage instead of being the grossest thing in the game right now.

Everyone's builds come and go all the time. It is never the end of the world. It wasn't the end of the world when Power Berserker was no longer particularly good (For raids). People adapted, found other builds and other classes to enjoy.

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