Phantasm amount reduction suggestions

[OriOri.8724]

Summoning 3 clones on use would be a good idea. But I'm worried about moving too far into mirror images design space there. But I agree that keeping it as CD reductions isn't the best solution. I mostly put those up because I know that there are people that like it because of its ability to affect phantasm skill CDs.

We could possibly give it condi cleanse on cast. Something like transfer 2 condis to nearby foes (or cleanse them if no foes around I guess). It would fit thematically with a heal skill. It would go some way towards making up for removing condi cleanse from iDisenchanter as well.

[SlimChance.6593]

Here's where I'd start.

Imagine Burden changed to summon a single phantasm that attacks twice.

For Chronophantasma, have it trigger off the skill use and not per phantasms. i.e. Staff's Warlock would summon two phantasms, but CP would only duplicate one. (Single Skill)

Defender and Disenchanter need some damage reduction, but I'd add a blanket "utility phantasms don't summon clones". This also helps cover traits like Mental Defense.

EDIT: Maybe even have CP not work on utiliity phantasms, only weapon based phantasms. (if you did this, you might able to forget the skill use idea and let it work on each phantasm.)

[kharmin.7683]

@Solori.6025 said:

My suggestion however would take care of the clutter issue, since people cant seem to tell the difference between a phantasm, a clone, and a shattered clone.

But isn't that the point of the class? Confuse the enemy into not knowing where the real caster is?

[Curunen.8729]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

My suggestion however would take care of the clutter issue, since people cant seem to tell the difference between a phantasm, a clone, and a shattered clone.

But isn't that the point of the class? Confuse the enemy into not knowing where the real caster is?

Oh yes - but there's a difference between a small amount of AI entities to attempt to misdirect in some situations, and unlimited phantasm generation which causes unnecessary visual mess in team fights as well as wreaking havoc with the targeting system among other things. :)

[kharmin.7683]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

My suggestion however would take care of the clutter issue, since people cant seem to tell the difference between a phantasm, a clone, and a shattered clone.

But isn't that the point of the class? Confuse the enemy into not knowing where the real caster is?

Oh yes - but there's a difference between a small amount of AI entities to attempt to misdirect in some situations, and unlimited phantasm generation which causes unnecessary visual mess in team fights as well as wreaking havoc with the targeting system among other things. :)

I get your point. To me, as a mesmer, I would probably welcome the mess. But, I don't really wade into PvP so...

[eldenbri.1059]

Wow - nothing like being stuck in a 6-hour meeting to get me far behind in my own thread.... :)

I really appreciate all the constructive suggestions. Like I tried to say in the premise, the changes that reduce the visual clutter might or might not get to the right damage output (it's possible that specific phantasms might also need damage reduction). And, I think there are lots of things that can be improved (e.g. focus phantasm feels like it needs some adjustment). But trying to solve too many different problems in one thread often leads to solving nothing.

So sticking with the core premise of the thread and trying to incorporate @Curunen.8729 suggestion on changing chronophantasma, here's a proposal that tries to deal with all of the elements.

• Staff creates one phantasm which creates two clones
• Imagined Burden does something that increases damage output, but doesn't create two berserkers (can create two clones in addition to the increased damage)
• Shield becomes single-use, single phantasm (adjust block duration and cooldown to balance)
• Chronophantasma causes phantasms to make a second attack after a short delay (maybe 2 seconds?) A clone is created after the second attack
• Persistance of Memory changes function so that taking chronophantasma is not penalty to this trait. Maybe a phantasm randomly grants one short-duration boon from a list whenever it creates a clone.
• Signet of the Ether still needs some change. I'm not actually sure what's best. I like the 3 clones idea.

Does anything else need to change with the proposed second-attack change on chronophantasma?

[OriOri.8724]

Making shield4 a single use block would be a pretty huge nerf to the skill in the name of reducing phantasm generation. If that is the goal and IF you want to target shield4 instead of the traits themselves, then removing phantasm cast from deja vu is a better option than removing deja vu altogether. No need to make shield 4 half as effective as it currently is just because one specific combination of traits and skills is overperforming.

[eldenbri.1059]

@OriOri.8724 I do worry about changing the shield phantasm. I tried to make the proposal around Curunen's idea for Chronophantasma. Since that idea involves having each phantasm stick around a while longer, I was trying to make sure that no phantasm would have two copies of itself on the screen at the same time.

If shield had a 20-second cooldown and a 2-second block, would you feel okay about it being single-use?

I didn't say any of this in the opening post, but my goal here is definitely not to make mesmer non-viable in any game mode. Other than a couple hundred hours on a ranger, I've only played mesmer for the past five years. And, I only play chrono. For some reason, I really suck at mirage. And I love the chronophantasma trait. So all these proposals are going to reduce the effectiveness of what I will play (as soon as my hand heals from surgery). But I think it's more constructive to try to present some coherent suggestions than the ranting I see in the mesmer feedback thread.

[mortrialus.3062]

@"plushiesoda.8150" said:so... the whole discussion can be resumed as " I got screwed once or twice by someone using a (easily avoidable, not even close to meta, weak on most scenarios) glass niche build on unranked pvp out of my 1000+ machups so let's make useless half of the mesmer toolkit in all gamemodes so it doesn't happen again "

Bunker Chrono is not "Easily Avoidable, not even close to meta, weak on most scenarios." It is a god tier 1v1 spec that is dominating every AT and Platinum league. You can expect four of them in every single game you play in Leagues. It is incredibly overtuned in several areas with the ability to spam so many phantasms as brainlessly as possible and still win pretty much every fight that isn't a mesmer mirror match.

but chronomancer can be support, or tank in pve... so who cares about chrono power DPS, right? screw 'em, anet allowing a class to have at least a meta build of each kind in pve... how dare them!!! monsters!!! kitten anet kitten anet!!

Power is by design supposed to do less damage, but be burstier than condi and do it's damage immediately. It's actually out of whack that Chronomancer is so much stronger than a lot of dedicated condition damage specs of other classes when that's not what it's intended purpose is in either the build's design or power damage as a whole's design. From a core philosophical level Mirage is the DPS spec.

unless you can propose a "solution" that doesn't shatters (pun intended) the spec on a game mode that you don't care about, your argument deserves to be ignored. Not necessarily talking about opener, but I'm too lazy to individually quote everyone.I care a lot about PvP and PvE. I don't just PvP. I raid and do fractals extensively as a mesmer. I don't throw out proposed changes without thinking seriously about how this would effect the class in PvE. There's a variety of reasons to nerf Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether in PvE as well as it's actually extremely absurd the level of power this one trait and one heal skill give this class. Nothing else anywhere in the game comes close to that.

don't believe me? ask your main revenant/necro friend about the "wonders" that pvp intended changes have done to their class on unrelated content.You could literally Smiter's Boon Power DPS Chrono and Mesmer would still be the most desired PvE class with multiple top tier specs.

oooh... but condition mirage is the intended mesmer pve dps build, so STKittenU, right? of course, most raiders brag about how broken condition builds usually perform... right?Condition damage from a philosophical design perspective is about building up higher and higher damage over time. It's designed to do better on long encounters. It's literally the core bedrock of damage in this game. I really don't understand what you're arguing here, are you against raiders who use condition damage builds because by design they are better for raids?

not gonna deny the visual spam fest, but wouldn't making phantasms more transparent and shiny be an easier solution (like other player's pets in multiplayer diablo 3) to give people that for whatever reason have a hard time distinguishing the player among the clearly distinctive phantasms an easier time?If phantasms were more of an eyesore that would make the problem. Are you serious with this?

Any chronopanthasm-related rework that doesn't break chrono dps will only make them burstier and harder to deal with, and if you have played this game for a while I'm sure you already know the "ways" balance is usually done.

Kinda unrelated, but... This is what happens when you leave a class over-perform for too long, regardless of how much they nerf or break it, people will find something to complain about it. The funny thing is how hilarious the whole mesmer hate must be for main thieves above gold levels, thanks to these people getting downed by two-hand sword shatter builds (which ain't even the strongest mirage build) they can remain out of nerf-hammer's sight.It's not thieves in gold levels. It's everyone in every tier of play including top tier players and twitchcasters.

There's definitely a little bit of rancor over Power Greatsword, but that's not the build people are upset about. It's Bunker Chronomancer. Bunker Chronomancer is an extremely resilient 1v1 spec that is extremely difficult to kill and can sustain a 2v1 for almost as long as a druid, has godly physical mitigation and condition cleanse, permanent protection and regeneration, has tons of active defenses, and can spam 4X of all it's phantasms (Not even taking Continuum split) any one of which can immediately win a fight. It spams so many phantasms that if there's more than one of them in the game the game has to start culling players from visibility. You aren't even aware of the build that people are talking about or what it does and why everyone is upset about it.

[OriOri.8724]

@eldenbri.1059 said:@OriOri.8724 I do worry about changing the shield phantasm. I tried to make the proposal around Curunen's idea for Chronophantasma. Since that idea involves having each phantasm stick around a while longer, I was trying to make sure that no phantasm would have two copies of itself on the screen at the same time.

If shield had a 20-second cooldown and a 2-second block, would you feel okay about it being single-use?

I didn't say any of this in the opening post, but my goal here is definitely not to make mesmer non-viable in any game mode. Other than a couple hundred hours on a ranger, I've only played mesmer for the past five years. And, I only play chrono. For some reason, I really suck at mirage. And I love the chronophantasma trait. So all these proposals are going to reduce the effectiveness of what I will play (as soon as my hand heals from surgery). But I think it's more constructive to try to present some coherent suggestions than the ranting I see in the mesmer feedback thread.

I like the double use nature of Shield 4. In my opinion its quite a uniquely designed skill, if used well we can double up on our block, but we are given enough time to use the second block when it is most convenient. But on top of that, there's also counterplay involved with denying the use of the second block (although the practicality of that counterplay is currently questionable with the amount of AoE and pulsing attacks there are. Its easy enough for a mesmer to proc the block on their own in most situations, even if you quit attacking entirely). I think the skill would lose the majority of its flavor if it was reduced to a single block, even if the numbers were adjusted in such a way to make it about as powerful as it is now. And for that reason I can't really support any idea to remove deja vu entirely.

I also don't think that shield 4 is a major offender here. Yes, you an get 2 phantasms out of it. But you could do that before the rework and it wasn't a problem, even with the current functionality of PoM. I think nerfing it is a kneejerk nerf to the class as a whole, since the actual problem is the synergy between obtaining boons and clones (for shatter fodder, for even more boons with BD if you are running chaos) when a phantasm de-spawns coupled with the very high synergy between CP, SotE and our phantasm skills. Of course, the ridiculously high damage of a few phantasms isn't helping this, but that should be addressed by a balancing pass on the actual phantasms.

So, TL;DR I think nerfing shield4 is not going to solve the problem. If it needs to be nerfed though, the only thing I would do is remove phantasm summon from deja vu, but leave deja vu in as a mechanic.

[Zenith.7301]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

I'd rather my mid tier power chrono build in PvE doesn't get nerfed into mediocrity (which it already is verging on at 32k DPS compared to condi's 36k) because of a garbage format like PvP where people just complain because they lost a duel to a mesmer.

[mortrialus.3062]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@eldenbri.1059 said:@OriOri.8724 I do worry about changing the shield phantasm. I tried to make the proposal around Curunen's idea for Chronophantasma. Since that idea involves having each phantasm stick around a while longer, I was trying to make sure that no phantasm would have two copies of itself on the screen at the same time.

If shield had a 20-second cooldown and a 2-second block, would you feel okay about it being single-use?

I didn't say any of this in the opening post, but my goal here is definitely not to make mesmer non-viable in any game mode. Other than a couple hundred hours on a ranger, I've only played mesmer for the past five years. And, I only play chrono. For some reason, I really suck at mirage. And I love the chronophantasma trait. So all these proposals are going to reduce the effectiveness of what I will play (as soon as my hand heals from surgery). But I think it's more constructive to try to present some coherent suggestions than the ranting I see in the mesmer feedback thread.

I like the double use nature of Shield 4. In my opinion its quite a uniquely designed skill, if used well we can double up on our block, but we are given enough time to use the second block when it is most convenient. But on top of that, there's also counterplay involved with denying the use of the second block (although the practicality of that counterplay is currently questionable with the amount of AoE and pulsing attacks there are. Its easy enough for a mesmer to proc the block on their own in most situations, even if you quit attacking entirely). I think the skill would lose the majority of its flavor if it was reduced to a single block, even if the numbers were adjusted in such a way to make it about as powerful as it is now. And for that reason I can't really support any idea to remove deja vu entirely.

I also don't think that shield 4 is a major offender here. Yes, you an get 2 phantasms out of it. But you could do that before the rework and it wasn't a problem, even with the current functionality of PoM. I think nerfing it is a kneejerk nerf to the class as a whole, since the actual problem is the synergy between obtaining boons and clones (for shatter fodder, for even more boons with BD if you are running chaos) when a phantasm de-spawns coupled with the very high synergy between CP, SotE and our phantasm skills. Of course, the ridiculously high damage of a few phantasms isn't helping this, but that should be addressed by a balancing pass on the actual phantasms.

So, TL;DR I think nerfing shield4 is not going to solve the problem. If it needs to be nerfed though, the only thing I would do is remove phantasm summon from deja vu, but leave deja vu in as a mechanic.

Shield 4 is fine without Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether. In fact it's a really excellent skill to play around when you aren't dealing with eight of the phantasms.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill straight up quadruple their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait straight up quadruples their damage output.

Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma is balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.

I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live.

What are firebrand and renegade supposed to be? Because they can play suppor, and also play dps. And guardian in particular already has dragonhunter as a dps spec.

Condi damage and power damage never compete in anet's eyes. The fact that mirage is a condi spec doesn't mean mesmer is covered dps-wise. The real reason for them to nerf power chrono would be so they can sell a dedicated power dps spec next expansion, like they did with tempest and condi reaper.

And a bit unrelated, how is chrono easier to play than most builds? It has some tricky timings, like using CS during Ether's aftercast and you have to keep track of your Compounding Power and Finesse stacks, when there are builds that literally do little more than autoattack. It's not weaver, but don't act like you are purging the game of a brainless build.

Also don't play stupid. Chronophantasma is absolutely apart of the visual clutter because it doubles the length of time phantasms are around cluttering the screen.

So, it prolongs the problem by a couple of seconds, but it's not the one creating it.

I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play.

Removing options from pve is the exact opposite of fun.

The whole point of this mesmer rework was so that shatters became part of the class again, and mirage was designed to ignore shatters. The emergence of power chrono is the only reason this rework was successful, otherwise, mesmer is back to not having a profession mechanic.

[mortrialus.3062]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill

straight up quadruple

their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait

straight up quadruple

quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma

is

balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple

ANY

ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this bullshit. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage. PvE Power Chrono in is a gross aberration because one heal skill and one trait add about 12k DPS to the build. There is nothing else in the entire game where one trait and one heal with that much power loaded into it. It's like if Grace of the Land had an issue that combined with We He As One made them a better DPS build than a majority of damage orientated elite specs in the game. At the very least, you have to admit it's really weird.

I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live.

What are firebrand and renegade supposed to be? Because they can play suppor, and also play dps. And guardian in particular already has dragonhunter as a dps spec.I've never even heard of Renegade Support. Like Renegade has team based buffs, but those buffs are all damage orientated. It's like calling Condition Daredevil a support spec.

I've also never even heard of Firebrand running support outside of PvP. But Guardian's F2 and F3 skills are inherently designed to support allies. The core of guardian is built to inherently support allies. While dragonhunter is a selfish DPS spec, firebrand continuing with Guardian's inherent support isn't that weird.

Condi damage and power damage never compete in anet's eyes. The fact that mirage is a condi spec doesn't mean mesmer is covered dps-wise. The real reason for them to nerf power chrono would be so they can sell a dedicated power dps spec next expansion, like they did with tempest and condi reaper.Condi damage and power damage are always competing. There have been multiple statements across years of the game that power is suppsosed provide instant burst damage while condition damage is supposed to have higher sustained damage with more ramp. We had a patch a few months ago where almost all condition damage attacks had their intensity stacks halved and their duration doubled explicitly to give power damage and condition damage more clear niches and divides.

And a bit unrelated, how is chrono easier to play than most builds? It has some tricky timings, like y using CS during Ether's aftercast and you have to keep track of your Compounding Power and Finesse stacks, when there are builds that literally do little more than autoattack. It's not weaver, but don't act like you are purging the game of a brainless build.PvP Chronobunker is pure faceroll. I'm not talking about the PvE DPS version. Like yeah, with Chrono there's always some finesse with Continuum Split but that's about it.

Also don't play stupid. Chronophantasma is absolutely apart of the visual clutter because it doubles the length of time phantasms are around cluttering the screen.

So, it prolongs the problem by a a couple of seconds, but it's not the one creating it.It doubles the problem. And signet of the ether doubles it further.

I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play.

Removing options from pve is the exact opposite of fun.Sometimes things can be fun, AND unhealthy.

[musu.9205]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill

straight up quadruple

their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait

straight up quadruple

quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma

is

balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple

ANY

ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage. PvE Power Chrono in is a gross aberration because one heal skill and one trait add about 12k DPS to the build. There is nothing else in the entire game where one trait and one heal with that much power loaded into it. It's like if Grace of the Land had an issue that combined with We He As One made them a better DPS build than a majority of damage orientated elite specs in the game. At the very least, you have to admit it's really weird.

I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live.

What are firebrand and renegade supposed to be? Because they can play suppor, and also play dps. And guardian in particular already has dragonhunter as a dps spec.I've never even heard of Renegade Support. Like Renegade has team based buffs, but those buffs are all damage orientated. It's like calling Condition Daredevil a support spec.

I've also never even heard of Firebrand running support outside of PvP. But Guardian's F2 and F3 skills are inherently designed to support allies. The core of guardian is built to inherently support allies. While dragonhunter is a selfish DPS spec, firebrand continuing with Guardian's inherent support isn't that weird.

Condi damage and power damage never compete in anet's eyes. The fact that mirage is a condi spec doesn't mean mesmer is covered dps-wise. The real reason for them to nerf power chrono would be so they can sell a dedicated power dps spec next expansion, like they did with tempest and condi reaper.Condi damage and power damage are always competing. There have been multiple statements across years of the game that power is suppsosed provide instant burst damage while condition damage is supposed to have higher sustained damage with more ramp. We had a patch a few months ago where almost all condition damage attacks had their intensity stacks halved and their duration doubled explicitly to give power damage and condition damage more clear niches and divides.

And a bit unrelated, how is chrono easier to play than most builds? It has some tricky timings, like y using CS during Ether's aftercast and you have to keep track of your Compounding Power and Finesse stacks, when there are builds that literally do little more than autoattack. It's not weaver, but don't act like you are purging the game of a brainless build.PvP Chronobunker is pure faceroll. I'm not talking about the PvE DPS version. Like yeah, with Chrono there's always some finesse with Continuum Split but that's about it.

Also don't play stupid. Chronophantasma is absolutely apart of the visual clutter because it doubles the length of time phantasms are around cluttering the screen.

So, it prolongs the problem by a a couple of seconds, but it's not the one creating it.It doubles the problem. And signet of the ether doubles it further.

I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play.

Removing options from pve is the exact opposite of fun.Sometimes things can be fun, AND unhealthy.

well i agree trait like cp is a balance nightmare , but i don't think you know much about pve .some of your argument are clearly misinformation .and again (in pve) dps chrono is entirely different from support chrono build , none build can do both , not even close . it's only balance issue when things like firebrand can do dps while provide support because their support tool is build into their f abilities it may cause less of a problem in pvp and pve , but it's a huge deal in wvw . for this very reason , i think you failed to understand why it's bad for some spec to have both support and dps and why chrono is not the case .

and in all fairness the op chrono build (it's not op in high rank but still ) has nothing to do with support capability ,and let's be honest support chrono won't ever be viable in current meta ." And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage"that's a big nope,so don't make false argument .there are no such thing as to fall back on . Dune cloak is a trash trait . and i can tell you more than half of the dps builds are easier to play than chrono that includes all viable condi spec , holo, dragonhunter , gs power spellbreaker and deadeye. actually only weaver and offhand dagger spellbreaker(with full counter) are clearly harder to play , funny they are first and second dps in pve .

i prefer they change signet of ether to : reset next two phantasm cd(with 1s cd between ) but reduce its cd to 15s instead of nuke its function .

[musu.9205]

and should i remind you guys , condition mirage is not viable in pvp . given mirage is clearly condition spec , if we stick with the argument "purity of purpose ". we can't have any viable build in pvp .follow same logic , we shouldn't even have viable pve build , so called support chrono relies on soi and gm trait in inspiration .dps chrono relies on cp , condition mirage relies on IH , none of them are exactly well designed or healthy .but can we not break something that's not broken at first place . you do have to consider anet has limited resource , unless they do full rework for all classes , creating more mess is far less desirable .

in an ideal world i would like to redo entire mirage spec , like no matter its viable or not ,attack while in dodge frame won't be healthy . the support capability from chrono tools is questionable . idefender is bad design . who ever thought a rng proc cc on AI with potential high aoe burst is sane ? iwarden is still trash , offhand pistol is still trash and staff 4 ,5 are trash , gs in general has worst skillset but it got nerfed and nerfed due to a single combo which is hardly problem in todays meta .

if you wanna offer suggest , please start with something more doable than creating more mess for a class like mesmer .

[mortrialus.3062]

@musu.9205 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Phantasms can never be properly balanced when one trait and one heal skill

straight up quadruple

their damage output. Just writing that out, it should be readily apparent the power are gained from this one trait and one heal skill and how absurdly out of whack that is. That is an insane amount of power coming from one trait and one heal skill in PvP or PvE. Are Disenchanter and and Defender are overtuned? Probably, yeah. But every phantasm is extremely lethal, especially when you have to deal with anywhere between three to eight of them.

Ambush attacks can never be balanced when one trait

straight up quadruple

quadruple their damage output.Oh wait, you yourself said they can and they are and that Infinite Horizon is fine in both game modes, so maybe you're talking bull and that in fact you can have balance by just tweaking the numbers. And Chronophantasma

is

balanced in pve as is power chrono in general.Infinite Horizon does not quadruple

ANY

ambush attack's total damage. Not even close. Period. And of story. Get out of here with this kitten. None of the ambush attacks have anywhere near the huge, blowout, fight ending potential of our stronger phantasms. When players left and right are eating 48k-100k damage from a Sword ambush+3 clones we'll talk and if that was happening I'd agree with the people complaining and want it dealt with.

And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage. PvE Power Chrono in is a gross aberration because one heal skill and one trait add about 12k DPS to the build. There is nothing else in the entire game where one trait and one heal with that much power loaded into it. It's like if Grace of the Land had an issue that combined with We He As One made them a better DPS build than a majority of damage orientated elite specs in the game. At the very least, you have to admit it's really weird.

I don't necessarily see why power Chronomancer deserves to exist in PvE. Chronomancer is the defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. It's really weird that it has this specialization that also has a DPS specialization that's better (And easier) than most dedicated DPS specializations. Mirage is the dedicated damage spec, doubly so because condition damage is designed to be better in longer engagements. Even without Chronophantasma, Mesmer will be the most desired class in PvE with a straight up mandatory support specialization and an excellent DPS specializaiton. We'll live.

What are firebrand and renegade supposed to be? Because they can play suppor, and also play dps. And guardian in particular already has dragonhunter as a dps spec.I've never even heard of Renegade Support. Like Renegade has team based buffs, but those buffs are all damage orientated. It's like calling Condition Daredevil a support spec.

I've also never even heard of Firebrand running support outside of PvP. But Guardian's F2 and F3 skills are inherently designed to support allies. The core of guardian is built to inherently support allies. While dragonhunter is a selfish DPS spec, firebrand continuing with Guardian's inherent support isn't that weird.

Condi damage and power damage never compete in anet's eyes. The fact that mirage is a condi spec doesn't mean mesmer is covered dps-wise. The real reason for them to nerf power chrono would be so they can sell a dedicated power dps spec next expansion, like they did with tempest and condi reaper.Condi damage and power damage are always competing. There have been multiple statements across years of the game that power is suppsosed provide instant burst damage while condition damage is supposed to have higher sustained damage with more ramp. We had a patch a few months ago where almost all condition damage attacks had their intensity stacks halved and their duration doubled explicitly to give power damage and condition damage more clear niches and divides.

And a bit unrelated, how is chrono easier to play than most builds? It has some tricky timings, like y using CS during Ether's aftercast and you have to keep track of your Compounding Power and Finesse stacks, when there are builds that literally do little more than autoattack. It's not weaver, but don't act like you are purging the game of a brainless build.PvP Chronobunker is pure faceroll. I'm not talking about the PvE DPS version. Like yeah, with Chrono there's always some finesse with Continuum Split but that's about it.

Also don't play stupid. Chronophantasma is absolutely apart of the visual clutter because it doubles the length of time phantasms are around cluttering the screen.

So, it prolongs the problem by a a couple of seconds, but it's not the one creating it.It doubles the problem. And signet of the ether doubles it further.

I care about all game modes and want them all to be fun avenues of play.

Removing options from pve is the exact opposite of fun.Sometimes things can be fun, AND unhealthy.

well i agree trait like cp is a balance nightmare , but i don't think you know much about pve .some of your argument are clearly misinformation .and again (in pve) dps chrono is entirely different from support chrono build , none build can do both , not even close . it's only balance issue when things like firebrand can do dps while provide support because their support tool is build into their f abilities it may cause less of a problem in pvp and pve , but it's a huge deal in wvw . for this very reason , i think you failed to understand why it's bad for some spec to have both support and dps and why chrono is not the case .And I don't think you know much about reading english because I never once equivocated Boonshare Chrono with Power DPS Chrono and made clear distinctions about which one I was talking about at any given time.and in all fairness the op chrono build (it's not op in high rank but still ) has nothing to do with support capability ,and let's be honest support chrono won't ever be viable in current meta .The Bunker Chrono is dominating the top 100 on EA and NA and at least one, sometimes two are on every team winning Automated Tournaments. "Not op in high rank" you don't know what you're talking about." And if infinite horizons was nerfed, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Mirage because there are DPS options to fall back on because the spec is actually designed to do damage"that's a big nope,so don't make false argument .there are no such thing as to fall back on . Dune cloak is a trash trait . and i can tell you more than half of the dps builds are easier to play than chrono that includes all viable condi spec , holo, dragonhunter , gs power spellbreaker and deadeye. actually only weaver and offhand dagger spellbreaker(with full counter) are clearly harder to play , funny they are first and second dps in pve .

Duelling>Illusions>Mirage with Dunecloak gets about 31k dps. It would be a serious nerf, but it wouldn't delete the entire spec. DPS Chrono gets about 10-12k DPS just from Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether. It would struggle to break 21k dps without this one trait and heal skill. I'm starting to think you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about in PvE.

I wasn't talking about PvE DPS Chrono when I called it a faceroll spec. I was talking about PvP Bunker ChronoAgain, giving me serious concerns about your reading comprehension.

@musu.9205 said:and should i remind you guys , condition mirage is not viable in pvp . given mirage is clearly condition spec , if we stick with the argument "purity of purpose ". we can't have any viable build in pvp .follow same logic , we shouldn't even have viable pve build , so called support chrono relies on soi and gm trait in inspiration .dps chrono relies on cp , condition mirage relies on IH , none of them are exactly well designed or healthy .but can we not break something that's not broken at first place . you do have to consider anet has limited resource , unless they do full rework for all classes , creating more mess is far less desirable .

in an ideal world i would like to redo entire mirage spec , like no matter its viable or not ,attack while in dodge frame won't be healthy . the support capability from chrono tools is questionable . idefender is bad design . who ever thought a rng proc cc on AI with potential high aoe burst is sane ? iwarden is still trash , offhand pistol is still trash and staff 4 ,5 are trash , gs in general has worst skillset but it got nerfed and nerfed due to a single combo which is hardly problem in todays meta .

if you wanna offer suggest , please start with something more doable than creating more mess for a class like mesmer .

Carrion Ineptitude Mirage is still extremely potent and viable in PvP and there's still quite a few of them running around in platinum. It's no longer the undisputed king of Mesmer specs like it was before the rework, but it's still potent and you'd see more of them if Bunker Chrono wasn't taking up two spots on every team in every match in platinum. If you think Staff 4+5 is trash you aren't seeing what Chaos Bunker Chronos and Demo Mirages are doing with it and Persisting Memory. Greatsword mesmer's kit is bad for 1v1's but it's an excellent weapon for +1ers, which it's amazing at.

We can talk about problematic aspects Mirage, and you'd be fair to do so. Elusive Mind should absolutely be thrown out and reworked in particular. But it's not Mirage that's creeping every other class and specialization out of PvP right now. It's Bunker Chronomancer. And your "Ideal world" with a complete redo of mirage which would some how fix Chronomancer with one trait and one heal radically overperforming is literal nonsense.

Like lets work through your thought process here:

Completely rework Mirage, redesigning it's class mechanic, weapon skills, utility skills, art assets, spell effects all from the ground up. This process will take several months at minimum. Then run everything through QA and bug testers for months. Then release it to players and ensure that it performs up to task and make changes afterwords to fix it. This process will cost tens of thousands of dollars in man hours to complete. And this will fix Bunker Chronomancer in PvP. Somehow.

Or:

Fix one trait and one heal skill that are radically overperforming post rework, which still leaves Support Chronomancer and Conditon Mirage as top tier PvE specs so Mesmers still have a viable place in PvE.

Which of these is more of a mess for mesmer?

[EpicTurtle.8571]

I agree CP is a problem as far as visual clutter, but I'm also going to agree with the viewpoint that PvP isn't worth destroying a PvE spec a lot of people enjoy. Oh and hint hint, not everyone likes playing Support Chrono and not everyone likes playing Condition Mirage

'Yeah but Mesmer still has top tier PvE specs'

Top tier output yeah, but fun is subjective. Being a Support Chrono babysitter is not fun to me and if Mirage was power based I probably just wouldn't bother playing the class anymore despite how much I like it. Power Chrono shouldn't get wiped off the map in PvE because one trait and one skill are overperforming. There's another way to think about it rather than, "Power Chrono shouldn't exist because one trait and one skill are overperforming".

[mortrialus.3062]

@"EpicTurtle.8571" said:I agree CP is a problem as far as visual clutter, but I'm also going to agree with the viewpoint that PvP isn't worth destroying a PvE spec a lot of people enjoy. Oh and hint hint, not everyone likes playing Support Chrono and not everyone likes playing Condition Mirage

'Yeah but Mesmer still has top tier PvE specs'

Top tier output yeah, but fun is subjective. Being a Support Chrono babysitter is not fun to me and if Mirage was power based I probably just wouldn't bother playing the class anymore despite how much I like it. Power Chrono shouldn't get wiped off the map in PvE because one trait and one skill are overperforming. There's another way to think about it rather than, "Power Chrono shouldn't exist because one trait and one skill are overperforming".

And I want to heal raids as a Harrier's Shoutheal Spellbreaker. Sometimes the specs you like the most don't or shouldn't exist at that high of power and it's not fun but them's the breaks sometimes.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

I dont enjoy/play pvp. There is no reason to destroy pve build because it uses something that is op in pvp (and its balanced in pve). Its not true tuat only dps chrono use chronoplasma but also one variant of support chrono.

Also in pve (like twighlight oasis) players are complaining about visual clutter. Thats part of the design. If you spend some time in TO and are willing to learn its isnt overwhelming at all. Instead of complaining that we should remove stuff because it is too much visualy you should learn to play against it.

Mesmer is ilusion spec and it should confuse opponents

[mortrialus.3062]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:I dont enjoy/play pvp. There is no reason to destroy pve build because it uses something that is op in pvp (and its balanced in pve). Its not true tuat only dps chrono use chronoplasma but also one variant of support chrono.

Also in pve (like twighlight oasis) players are complaining about visual clutter. Thats part of the design. If you spend some time in TO and are willing to learn its isnt overwhelming at all. Instead of complaining that we should remove stuff because it is too much visualy you should learn to play against it.

Mesmer is ilusion spec and it should confuse opponents

By this logic, Arenanet shouldn't have done anything about about those solo 100k dps Frost Gunner Reapers that were running around back in Heart of Thorns because nerf something when it's not effecting raids or PvP or WvW? Think about how much fun those Reapers were having that Arenanet ruined.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:I dont enjoy/play pvp. There is no reason to destroy pve build because it uses something that is op in pvp (and its balanced in pve). Its not true tuat only dps chrono use chronoplasma but also one variant of support chrono.

Also in pve (like twighlight oasis) players are complaining about visual clutter. Thats part of the design. If you spend some time in TO and are willing to learn its isnt overwhelming at all. Instead of complaining that we should remove stuff because it is too much visualy you should learn to play against it.

Mesmer is ilusion spec and it should confuse opponents

By this logic, Arenanet shouldn't have done anything about about those solo 100k dps Frost Gunner Reapers that were running around back in Heart of Thorns because nerf something when it's not effecting raids or PvP or WvW? Think about how much fun those Reapers were having that Arenanet ruined.

I am newer player but weren raids added after hot ?As i said i dobt play pvp because its not fun for me. It might be true that it is too much in pvp. I just said that sometimes the visuals are part of the fight.

And where were reapers doing 100k dps? If that was in boss fights than it was affecting raids. If it wasnt than that number says nothing. Weaver can easiky go to 80-100k dps opener even on a boss fight. If the fight is short it doesnt mean anything. Also if you fight more then one enemy you get more dps.

You are basicaly saying: i dont care about pve, "improve" my pvp.

I am saying: I dont care about pvp so dont ruin fun and diverse builds just because random player is screaming on a forum that it ilneeds to be nerfed.

In pve every 1000 dps matters so your changes will afect pve for sure (if you want to rework trait). Its much better to split and change numbers and not whole traits.

[Levetty.1279]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:I am saying: I dont care about pvp so dont ruin fun and diverse builds just because random player is screaming on a forum that it ilneeds to be nerfed.

In pve every 1000 dps matters so your changes will afect pve for sure (if you want to rework trait). Its much better to split and change numbers and not whole traits.I've tried telling them this but they just don't care.They are even admitting now they want to the specs nerfed in PvE because they don't like them in PvP. Its even more funny now considering PvP has devolved into a bunch of win traders.

There is no reason why Chrono DPS should not exist in PvE since it can't support at the same time and there is no reason why PvP players should be trying to destroy the spec just to spite PvE players.

[apharma.3741]

My Ideal change to address this would be removed phantasms entirely so there can only be 3 illusions active (+any that are marked to shatter) at any one time, this would satisfy most players problems with clutter and having multiple staggered damage sources to dodge. These skills would obviously still create a clone so as to keep current shatter rates etc.

This would need changes to the skills themselves but mostly they aren't too big.

Berserker: Buff the greatsword damage, remove phantasm, clone spawns at the max range the GS hits.Warlock: You do the channelled beam attack, then spawn a clone next to you.Swordsman: Make it similar to warriors eviscerate in style with a 5 target cleave, remove weird sword attack, you gain 15s might per target hit.Warden: Becomes a ground targeted AoE bubble that blocks projectiles, like a cross between lava font and whirling defence but toned down in damage and size and lasting 5s.Duellist: You use unload, really not that complex and you generate a clone next to you, can move while unloading.Mage: You do the AoE fire blast it currently does that also dazes.Rogue: Dunno tbh happy to look at suggestions but a daze and damage strike might be a thematic to mesmer.Echo of memory: Applies slow for 2.5s to any enemy hitting you, grants 2.5s protection and creates a clone when it ends. Flips over to Deja Vu which does the same.

Traits would need changing too but not too much.Imagined burden: GS skills recharge faster and remove a boon (additional boon to mindstab) maybe keep the cripple too but might become an overloaded trait tbh.Empowered illusions: Change name, removing a boon does damage, not as much as Loss Aversion because mesmer can do a lot of sustained stripping.Phantasmal fury: Summoning an illusion grants fury.Sympathetic visage: This is an issue, if you convert it to clones taking a condition it becomes OP with DE.Protected phantasms: Rename to protected clones, clones get aegis and protection on summon.Illusionary Inspiration: Change what it activates on, heal or distortion would be good candidates .Mental Defence: I never liked this as it's a passive trait, I'd love to see it redesign anyway maybe regen and vigor per clone shattered.Persistence of memory: Illusion skills have 20% reduced recharge.Phantasmal haste: Rename and you gain 2s quickness when summoning a clone using a weapon skill. Specifically clones from weapons only.Phantasmal force: Remove the phantasmal buffing effect, no longer needed as all attacks benefit from might now. Reduce it to 1 stack of might per clone summoned.Chronophantasma: Weapon skills that summon a clone summon 2 clones instead.

Then I would create a category of utility skills called Illusion skills which decoy, mirror images, illusionary disenchantment and illusionary defense fit into, called illusion skills to make sure there's no confusion with clone skills.

illusionary disenchantment: A bouncing attack that removes 1 boon for every illusion you have out (1-4 boons removed), deal damage per boon removed, 20s CD.illusionary defense: Block the next few attacks based on number of clones active, 1, 2, 3 or 4. Reduce recharge to 35s.

This also means that mesmers finally gain full benefits from % damage mods on runes and sigils, it also means traits can be more focused on might stacking and or damage modifying rather than weirdly buffing singular skills in a bunker build to do high damage. You can also do slightly better skill splits in PvE so these replaced skills do more damage (and now 16% more because force/scholar) with the possibility of having an all in on damage build being competitive with others in PvE. This also addresses issues with entity spam, boon spam (no longer giving phantasms boons and getting them back) and in some ways damage of certain skills being disproportionate to the investment in traits. Not much can be done about evade spam complaints but at least there will be less aegis on the mesmer too.

Lets face it though, they will just change chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether to address the issue but just thought I'd share what I'd love to see as a proper fix to all the current issues

Edit: Forgot to mention obviously cast times wouldn't be kept at 1s, they would be adjusted. I also refrained from putting numbers on damage because the idea was to have the class in a situation where it can be numbers balanced a bit better.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

...no longer giving phantasms boons and getting them back...Again this kills one of the pve support chrono builds.Also as you said this is way to complicated change and after that there can be new op stuff because there is no way how they can test all combinations.

Right now i dont know what is the reason of this disscusion anymore. Do you want to nerf damage or to remove visual "beauty"?