Character Progression 2.0

[Gomes.5643]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@"Gomes.5643" said:Just saying .... a whole lot of negative arguments would be disappearing if we dont force that system into gw2 but make it a basis for an hypothetical GW3.

no, it is doubtful that anyone with money would invest in such a projectnormal mmos are declining, so they wont touch anything "special" and risky

Exactly because normal MMOs are declining they will touch something special and risky ..... why would you just continue to use outdated mechanics if you know that the market is shrinking? Specially then is the time to innovate and renew a lot to attract (or re-attract) customers who were bored from the stuff that were before. And Innovation always bring risks with them.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Gomes.5643 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Gomes.5643 said:Just saying .... a whole lot of negative arguments would be disappearing if we dont force that system into gw2 but make it a basis for an hypothetical GW3.

no, it is doubtful that anyone with money would invest in such a projectnormal mmos are declining, so they wont touch anything "special" and risky

Exactly because normal MMOs are declining they will touch something special and risky ..... why would you just continue to use outdated mechanics if you know that the market is shrinking? Specially then is the time to innovate and renew a lot to attract (or re-attract) customers who were bored from the stuff that were before. And Innovation always bring risks with them.

The thing is the genre is dying new mmos has barly enough to surviev

[Lost Ninja.1809]

@"Orpheal.8263" said:...snip...A better question IMO would be why does the progression in the game need to be made more simple?

• Start Game
• Level 1-80
• Hit 80 then do end game.

Only change that would be useful would be to allow access to Mastery Points whenever you find them not just at 80+

Gear and stats are pretty much ignored in favour of types. How often do you get "stack STR", "stack AGI", etc? You get Full Berserker and Scholar runes (or whatever) but other than that actual stats are seldom talked about (perhaps in deep theory crafting).

So yeah IMO solution looking for a problem.

[Arzurag.7506]

The current game is complete already, most basic systems cannot be changed but expanded, thus each expansion grants us more masteries and class-specializations.Any new ideas are more suited for a GW3, though I actually doubt that Anet wants to make such in the next 5 years.

[Gomes.5643]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Gomes.5643 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Gomes.5643 said:Just saying .... a whole lot of negative arguments would be disappearing if we dont force that system into gw2 but make it a basis for an hypothetical GW3.

no, it is doubtful that anyone with money would invest in such a projectnormal mmos are declining, so they wont touch anything "special" and risky

Exactly because normal MMOs are declining they will touch something special and risky ..... why would you just continue to use outdated mechanics if you know that the market is shrinking? Specially then is the time to innovate and renew a lot to attract (or re-attract) customers who were bored from the stuff that were before. And Innovation always bring risks with them.

The thing is the genre is dying new mmos has barly enough to surviev

Which is true, but with enough innovation this style of game might come back. Before the huge success of WoW people also didnt believe the genre was big enough to do stuff.

Also - for the pure sake of the argument - technically they dont have to make GW3 a MMO. They could go back to an CORPG Style. Heck they even could do a full Single Player RPG with the possibility to invite any friend into your world to form a party. For the progression system that does not matter. You can use this Mastery Based Progression System in any kind of RPG, be it MMO or almost MMO or Single Player.

[battledrone.8315]

@Gomes.5643 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Gomes.5643 said:Just saying .... a whole lot of negative arguments would be disappearing if we dont force that system into gw2 but make it a basis for an hypothetical GW3.

no, it is doubtful that anyone with money would invest in such a projectnormal mmos are declining, so they wont touch anything "special" and risky

Exactly because normal MMOs are declining they will touch something special and risky ..... why would you just continue to use outdated mechanics if you know that the market is shrinking? Specially then is the time to innovate and renew a lot to attract (or re-attract) customers who were bored from the stuff that were before. And Innovation always bring risks with them.

that is not the problem, EVERY mmo turns into a grindfest at endgame, and that will put of all other, than the most dedicated playersits always easy to be risky with other peoples money, if you had them yourself, i doubt you would be so daring with themif you want to build a car, you still need to put on some wheelswith all the mmos on the market, i doubt theres any room for sensible innovation left

[Trise.2865]

Yeah... I've also played The Secret World. It was a wonderful experiment, but simply doesn't work the way you'd think it does. Guild Wars 2's systems, warts and all, has proven itself superior.

[Orpheal.8263]

After having read through the latest posts, I came up to my mind, here some changes and additional points:

• Players should have to level lesser arbitrary numbers to get faster access already in the Main Game to the real deal, Masteries.50 Levels are more than enough to guide some mindless noobs as to where to go, until they have learned how the game runs, no need to stretch this idiotism to 80 levels until the end of the game, when half of the game is more than enough for this!
• The gain of Stats becomes massively simpler, no need to Grind for Gear anymore, unless you want the Skin, Infusion Slots or its Defense Values.Playing how you want becomes massively simpler, you can change your Stat Setting now whenever you want outside of Combat.No need to grind for Legendary Equipment just for this Feature just to get full freedom of Build Divisity, which shouldnt just be a legendary equipment owner's privilege!!!
• Upgrades become significantly better and more meaningful after a big overhauling Balance Patch that put only focus on all Upgrades to be reworked into the new Character Progression System. Rework of the 3 Tiers also, no Minor, Major, Superior Upgrades anymore, just only 2 Tiers that are now Normal & Superior, so basically the removal of Minors
• Elements of Character Progression like E-Specs become fully merged into Masteries, no need anymore to grind for Hero points just to suddenly unlock E-Specs and their Skills & Traits after that. The moment you learn the E-Spec Mastery after having reached Level 50 and owning the Expansions that adds the Specialization Masteries to the Tree, you will learn everything that belongs to the E-Spec, but learned is not mastered! As part of Character Progression 2.01 there is a difference between learning just only an Elite Specialization, and mastering it completely.Have you learned a Specialization, you have directly access to all of its Skill and Traits from begin on, but you can use it only, if you use also the Traits of it in your Build.Have you mastered a Specialization, then this unlocks the Weapon, Healing and Utility Skills for your Core Class as well and the E-Spec will get from then only only defined, if you use it's Elite Skill and Traits, which stay from the on the only parts that are bound to the E-Spec.
• PvE and WvW Character progression can get merged together with the Rank System getting reworked for WvW, so that its reward structure becoming retroactively better, while it is currently not the case, because of its massive arbitrary high number of obsolete 10000 ranks, where a system with much better rewards under just a maximum of 1000 Ranks would make much more sense!Make reaching higher ranks just more difficult over time as a little compensation to make it not too easy for all players.

The red line I have in mind for Character Progression 2.01, should be like this:

• NPE becomes now integrated into the Mastery System with Masteries being split up into Abilities and Talents, where the NPE is based mostly on classical Beginner Talents to explain the player how to play the Game and iwll be literalyl everbodies first Masteries that Characters in the Tutorial will automatically learn and master after ending the Tutorial. to give the player its first sum of Mastery Points to use for later, once Level 50 is reached to get access to Endgame Masteries which make usage on Mastery Points to learn and master them.
• Reach Level 50 and receive all Stats from those Levels alone, able to change your Stat Sets now whenever you want outside of Combat
• Get Ascended Gear for Highest Gear Defense/Slots/ Get Upgrades for your Equipment.Instead of Gear Stats does provide Gear now more Upgrade Slots. Weapons have 1-2 Sigil Slots more at Endgame based on if 1H or 2H Weapon, Gear has at Endgame a Rune/Gemstone Slot more than now. (if mastered fitting Upgrade Masteries first)
• Learn Masteries under the new restructured Mastery Tree System (E-Specs among the Mastery Paths of that Tree, if you own the Expansions)
• Gain Mastery Points from learning Masteries automatically
• Use Mastery Points to either learn a new unlocked Mastery from the Tree, that has become accessible from learning the last one before.
• Or use Mastery Points as currency for new Grandmaster NPCs findable now all over Tyria, which will teach you how you can truly master your learned Masteries, after you have done all of their Trials & Tests successfully, which require a Grandmaster Teacher, to completely master them, that are masteries which you can't master by yourself alone.

[Ashen.2907]

Although I would not mind seeing the mastery system expanded upon, and I never liked having stats so heavily tied to gear in GW2, I would probably uninstall the game if much of what has been suggested here saw the light of day.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

I like too se ot reworked to you have max amor at start therefor eliminating gear grindNo more upgrades stats are all equal for all classes therefor eliminating meta lvling adds skills only spec system removed to put all traits as passive lvl boost no more e specs. Masteries removed and is added then completing the content needing it(no longer account wide) (no more banks what you get is character locked)max lvl reduced too lvl 20. Anyone think this idea is good

[Orpheal.8263]

Reduction to 20 would be too much...What do you mean with "Stats all equal for all Classes"?They are already equal for all classes, as they do for each Class exactly the same effects... there is no difference in the Stats between the Classes, like that Vitality is for example more effective for a Warrior, than for example a Thief, while Precision beign for a Thief more effective, than for a Warrior.

Max Armor at Start would be pointless, it would completely remove the impression of having any Character Progression of gettign yourself over time better equipment, if it would be max statted right from the start..If you want no gear grind, then it is just enough to remove the obsolete connection to Stats from Gear, this would solve everything, without instantly destroying completely the sense of Character Progression, like what your suggestion would do ...if there is no build up over time of getting better defense values by improving your equipment, craftign stuff of higher and better quality to raise the defense values...A beginner equipment of simple leather materials shouldn't simply have not the same max defense power, as like an armor made out of the finest of high quality crafted ore materials, like Mithril & Co. Thats just logical...

The rest of your posting haven't I really understood, sorry, but I guess you want basically Traits as Masteries and to remove with that change E-Specs as well??Thats what I'd essentially would read out of this here from you:"adds skills only spec system removed to put all traits as passive lvl boost no more e specs."

Masteries getting completely removed won't happen. That's for sure. They clearly did not made that system - put it even into the game via an Expansion, just to remove it again.Changing and extracting it out of the Expansion System from HoT like I proposed - something like that is eventually possible and more likely, than that we will see Anet completely removing the Mastery System turning with that move basically all their efforts on that system to a waste.

Whats you basically suggested here is only turning GW2 more or less into a GW1 Clone with better graphics, thats all I can read out of this.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@"Orpheal.8263" said:Reduction to 20 would be too much...What do you mean with "Stats all equal for all Classes"?They are already equal for all classes, as they do for each Class exactly the same effects... there is no difference in the Stats between the Classes, like that Vitality is for example more effective for a Warrior, than for example a Thief, while Precision beign for a Thief more effective, than for a Warrior.

Max Armor at Start would be pointless, it would completely remove the impression of having any Character Progression of gettign yourself over time better equipment, if it would be max statted right from the start..If you want no gear grind, then it is just enough to remove the obsolete connection to Stats from Gear, this would solve everything, without instantly destroying completely the sense of Character Progression, like what your suggestion would do ...if there is no build up over time of getting better defense values by improving your equipment, craftign stuff of higher and better quality to raise the defense values...A beginner equipment of simple leather materials shouldn't simply have not the same max defense power, as like an armor made out of the finest of high quality crafted ore materials, like Mithril & Co. Thats just logical...

The rest of your posting haven't I really understood, sorry, but I guess you want basically Traits as Masteries and to remove with that change E-Specs as well??Thats what I'd essentially would read out of this here from you:"adds skills only spec system removed to put all traits as passive lvl boost no more e specs."

Masteries getting completely removed won't happen. That's for sure. They clearly did not made that system - put it even into the game via an Expansion, just to remove it again.Changing and extracting it out of the Expansion System from HoT like I proposed - something like that is eventually possible and more likely, than that we will see Anet completely removing the Mastery System turning with that move basically all their efforts on that system to a waste.

Whats you basically suggested here is only turning GW2 more or less into a GW1 Clone with better graphics, thats all I can read out of this.

I mean all get same stat no matter what and nothing can change it not exactly for example why should you character forget how to use something once learned. I am suggesting simpler lvl 20 is good number for it wont make many players being overwhelmed by time to lvl mastery content will exist but be task based you have learn how to ride and it will be for that character only. So each new character will start from 0

[Carighan.6758]

Honestly more than removing levels I'd look into removing unnecessary complexity. A lot of things we can customize about our characters feel like they're there just "because ". "Look how many things you can tweak!". Not that they factually change anything, because you need to align a lot of elements to make a significant impact anyhow.

I'd prefer:

• Comparatively few customization options.
• Each options is highly relevant, it changes a lot.
• Extend this to skills, they do one thing, but they do it really well. No more skills with 2-3 effects on top of damage and applying damaging conditions, plus sigil and trait procs. One effect. Two if you got a trait for it. That's it.

In detail I could of something like this:Remove sigils. Remove runes (this also reduces inventory spam). Traitlines now have 1-6 effects baked in (like minors), but no choices inside the traitline. Instead your pick 3-out-of-X traitlines is the spec choice. However, some traitlines might offer you some choices, such as picking 2 out of 6 options, or 1 out of 4, or whatever. This gives more flexibility in creating specs, as each traitline can be highly unique to focus on one specific aspect of the class, and which 3 traitlines you pick is which 3 out of your aspects you focus on. Means no hyper-specialization either, even if your class can do direct and condi damage that's only 2 traitlines, you'll pick a third one anyhow.

[Orpheal.8263]

Removing Upgrades I think is the wrong way, unless its effects get reworked into Skills and Traits, so that they are not totally lost completely.Upgrading the Equipment is part of Character Customization.And to me personally speaking, the Game has not any hyper specialization, nor too much choices and effects, except the fact that this game has way too much Boons and Conditions, but thats a different story and topic. Skills and Traits aren't the problem...Boon and Condition Spam is the root of the evil!!.

Making a Trait System, where the player has no choices is bad, this will cripple massively build diversity, unless the Traits in each line cover absolutely everythign you can think off to define a certain build so good, that you absolutely need to have no choice anymore, what is something that can't be done with only 9 Traits to choose from and 3 Traits per Line to use for your Build.If its more like 9-12 Traits per Line and they are fix defined given effects, that are all active for you the moment you chose that Traitline for your Character, then thats somethign else, but it makes your Builds more attached to these kind of "build blocks", than to have more individual influence on your personal detailed build, if you put traits into fix blocks of effects.Surely would make balancing for Anet a bit easier, but playing these predefined Trait Blocks with basically no individualism anymore makes surely the builds also more boring . Standing with mixed feelings on this idea I must say.. but personally I tend to prefer rather individualism, than pregiven builds, lika playing some kind of MOBA, where everythign is given to you already with pre defined "builds", cause in the end is this game no MOBA, but a MMORPG where player individualism is written big and not that all players are much more the same.

I would find it just nicer, if ANet would increase for all Classes the amount of chooseable Traitlines to make full usage of each Classes potential.Each class could easily have like 2-3 more Traitlines to increase this way Build Diversity. Maybe use this as a way to rework Upgrades into the new added Traitlines, instead of making each Traitline a big Trait Box with no individualism??? Then increase the amount of Traits per Line from 12 to 16, so that each Traitline Decision is a string of 4 instead of 3 Traits you want to use, what would help also a bit in removing some upgrades and turning them into class individual traits, if it really should be done to remove Upgrades. But personally spoken I'd keep Upgrades and just rebalance them, while removing useless upgrades of the game and revamp them into Masteries, for exampel these useless Slayer Sigils, which woudl be a perfect choice to get reworked into Slayer Masteries instead

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@"Orpheal.8263" said:Removing Upgrades I think is the wrong way, unless its effects get reworked into Skills and Traits, so that they are not totally lost completely.Upgrading the Equipment is part of Character Customization.And to me personally speaking, the Game has not any hyper specialization, nor too much choices and effects, except the fact that this game has way too much Boons and Conditions, but thats a different story and topic. Skills and Traits aren't the problem...Boon and Condition Spam is the root of the evil!!.

Making a Trait System, where the player has no choices is bad, this will cripple massively build diversity, unless the Traits in each line cover absolutely everythign you can think off to define a certain build so good, that you absolutely need to have no choice anymore, what is something that can't be done with only 9 Traits to choose from and 3 Traits per Line to use for your Build.If its more like 9-12 Traits per Line and they are fix defined given effects, that are all active for you the moment you chose that Traitline for your Character, then thats somethign else, but it makes your Builds more attached to these kind of "build blocks", than to have more individual influence on your personal detailed build, if you put traits into fix blocks of effects.Surely would make balancing for Anet a bit easier, but playing these predefined Trait Blocks with basically no individualism anymore makes surely the builds also more boring . Standing with mixed feelings on this idea I must say.. but personally I tend to prefer rather individualism, than pregiven builds, lika playing some kind of MOBA, where everythign is given to you already with pre defined "builds", cause in the end is this game no MOBA, but a MMORPG where player individualism is written big and not that all players are much more the same.

I would find it just nicer, if ANet would increase for all Classes the amount of chooseable Traitlines to make full usage of each Classes potential.Each class could easily have like 2-3 more Traitlines to increase this way Build Diversity. Maybe use this as a way to rework Upgrades into the new added Traitlines, instead of making each Traitline a big Trait Box with no individualism??? Then increase the amount of Traits per Line from 12 to 16, so that each Traitline Decision is a string of 4 instead of 3 Traits you want to use, what would help also a bit in removing some upgrades and turning them into class individual traits, if it really should be done to remove Upgrades. But personally spoken I'd keep Upgrades and just rebalance them, while removing useless upgrades of the game and revamp them into Masteries, for exampel these useless Slayer Sigils, which woudl be a perfect choice to get reworked into Slayer Masteries instead

Boons and condis over all is a mistake just need to be removed in favor more diversity and traits should been kept like it was before specs you had to certain events ore content to unlock it