Character Progression 2.0

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Orpheal.8263" said:With my reconstructured Mastery System, you wouldnt need to have to level Characters anymore to 80, just to get your Base Stats maxed, the number is completely arbitrarely, since ANet introduced the Mastery System. Think about it, how the game would be, if the game would reward you instead with little Boosts to your Attributes, whenever you learn a new Mastery instead, until a certain Maximum has been reached. Would feel alot more rewarding and would put these two systems together under just 1 needed only system - Masteries - like proposed

Is there a difference between leveling from 1-80 and leveling your attribute mastery? The game already rewards you with little boosts to your attributes every time you level up so why change it to give attributes when you level up a mastery instead?For a system built to "simplify" things, it does the exact opposite and over-complicate things.

[battledrone.8315]

i agree with the levelling tomes, they should never have existedthe current mastery system is a total failure, there are some players that can max new masteries instantly

[Orpheal.8263]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Is there a difference between leveling from 1-80 and leveling your attribute mastery? The game already rewards you with little boosts to your attributes every time you level up so why change it to give attributes when you level up a mastery instead?For a system built to "simplify" things, it does the exact opposite and over-complicate things.

The difference is, that there is no start up phase anymore, just to get the Base Stats... which is what finds place currently within Level 1 to 80.With my system can be rebalanced the gaming experience of all beginning maps, as if we would be basically all from begin on Lvl 80 and by doing the Masteries, we earn our selves then the Attributes, that we would gett additionally normally at the moment via gear grind.So, this change will make essentially all low level maps better, the Scaling System of this game can get also symblipice, because players don't need to get downscaled anymore then...

Instead of starting as Lvl 1 with like under 1000 HP you start then without any level anymore and the maximum Base Health that your Class has and everything in the that that was of Low level, will get scaled up to Max Values as well as if everything would be basically Level 80 in the whole game.Thats the simplification I'm speaking about.. no need to grind for levels and gear anymore in first place. character progression comes from the things, that your character learns and masters, not from Level Numbers.The Stat Boosts from Level Upping woudl become unneccessary the moment levelign gets removed. By removing that process, there needs to exist a simplified replacement for that removed mechanism and that simplified mechanism just is merging the old mechanism into the Mastery System, adding those Stat Boosts to for when <you learned a new mastery as a little reward for learning the mastery, and again ,when you fully mastered it

The simplification I'm following here comes mostly from focusing old mechanics into the Mastery System, to turn the Mastery System basically into the Main System of Character progression, which is from begin on the only character progression system of this game , instead of what we have now - a splitted up system like a cake with multiple small pieces where none of its pieces is connected to each other and where the mastery system plays first a role for you, once you have reached level 80 first, and before you haven't reached it, you can't make usage of its profitable effects - which is nonsense to me.. a system like the Mastery system should be useable from the very first moment on when you create your character.. and not first after being forced to reach level 80, to become first then able to make usage of it.

Character Progression and learning masteries shouldn't begin first from Lvl 80 on.. it should begin right after Character Creation ..The way how the system works currently, is as if I'd tell you, than you can learn first, how to ride a horse, once you have become first 80 years old and not a single second earlier?? Would you find this ok? I doubt not... but thats exactly how the current not well thought out Mastery System sadly works, it limitaes us from Character progression and forces us first to get 80 arbitrately level ups, just so that we can begin to learn somethign new that has nothign to do with leveling up then anymore, because we have reached the games limit of how much Anet wants to let us "level up", until our characters have reached the power cap that they allow us to have in the game in regard of Stats.

My System is the difference, with my system you have from the very moment after Character Creation 100% free choice, of how you develop your character, what you teach them in which row and playing pace, as you want, its not linear, like how it is now with the Leveling System from 1 to 80.It is in fact non-linear and completely driven by the player's choices only, what reflects in my eyes true character progression, especially if there are right from the start far more than enough choices to make of how you want to progress freely with your character..

This makes battles also more challenging again, because player skill will receive again more focus, not the linear stats you receive via gear grind and the levelign process equipment first, that you have mostly also all to craft, just so that you get more building freedom for your character. And should you fail with your current Stat Setting, the ability to reset your Stat Setting like in GW1 will become handy, making it possible for you to quickly change your build how you like, to try it again with a different build setting, without that you need to grind first ages long for BIS stat equipment that you need, just to play the build you want. Even in regard of this was GW1 a big step further, than what ANet turned GW2 into about this, here it feeels more, like they made a huge step backwards with all this unneccessary gear grind for Stats.

If everythign woudl be based around Masteries, there would be no gear grind anymore, players could play the game as they want, because all they need to do is just play the game how they want.. everything gives exp and you will learn masteries as you play normally the game under my system, without beign forced to grind extra Mastery Points, no ,you just receive them then automatically as you learn masteries and use them then as key element to learn and unlock for your character even more potential new learnable masteries for your character.OCmpared to the current system works my proposal more like a classical SKill Tree, but just with Masteries to leanr, not just simple Skills and so further you progress in it, so more branches of new possible things to learn will you find in it, while under the current system, it stays stagnant and linear, while beign constantly forced to grind for mastery points, to grind for stats, ect..Under my system is everythign you need just only collectign EXP to learn masteries, which is compared to the current version also simpler.

Simplify things is relative. Its important from which kind of angle of view you look at things. When you look at my proposal only from the angle of view, that I want to increase the amount of masteries sgnificantly,, then Id agree with you, this surely gives not the impression of making things simpler.But from the perspective of wanting to merge things together and let everything just run under 1 main system for Character Progresssion - everything under the flag of Masteries and removing unneccessary, or not needed anymore older processes that are standing in it's way - then it definetely does make things simpler and more straightlined - more structured! So to say.

[Zohane.7208]

To me, like many others, this just seems like you're gutting the core mechanics of how characters work, and replacing them with an equally (or worse) cumbersome system. It would take re-Writing a lot of the basics of the game most likely, and all it would accomplish is to put a new label on the process of getting a toon from "new" to "veteran". I see this as a complete waste of time. The current system works. Sure, it's got its quirks but it works.Also, in a system where you would only ever have to get one set or gear (since there's no stats connected to it) a lot of the economy would likely suffer.

If it's not clear, I think this suggestion should be forgotten as soon as possible.

[Rasimir.6239]

@Orpheal.8263 said:My System is the difference, with my system you have from the very moment after Character Creation 100% free choice, of how you develop your character, what you teach them in which row and playing pace, as you want, its not linear, like how it is now with the Leveling System from 1 to 80.It is in fact non-linear and completely driven by the player's choices only, what reflects in my eyes true character progression, especially if there are right from the start far more than enough choices to make of how you want to progress freely with your character..Problem with this is that it is pretty easy for unexperienced people to go wrong here, and make progression unnecessarily hard and frustrating for them, thus offering the potential to drive away a considerable part of the playerbase before they really get rolling in the game.

Not everybody enjoys researching the beneficial path to leveling outside of the game. Not everybody enjoys theory crafting the most beneficial way to progression from the tooltips in game. Many people prefer to jump into the game and just play, and leaving progression totally open and unguided can easily lead them into a place where they find crucial parts of their character (or rather account) progression missing and get them stuck with a totally non-fluid account/character development.

While you might say it's their own fault it certainly isn't in ANet's best interest (nor in ours as a community that relies on having like-minded people to play with) to drive away potential players by allowing them to jump into progression dead-ends (by manouvering themselves into frustrating progression corners) unhindered.

[Orpheal.8263]

GW2 has always been fashion based.. so was also too GW1, where getting bis equipment was even much faster, than what is possible here in GW2 and from that moment on it was also all about gear skins only...The economy wont suffer, for demand that will decline here n there maybe, can easily get inhtroduced new thigns, which will generate new demand.. its everything just in fatc an exchange of demands.. and exchange of demands is neccessary for a good economy, so tjhat things, which have been longtime worthless get the chance to become more valuable, while thigns, which have had all this time high demands, can have some time where the demands shrink, so that the offer can build up for a time, when also these things will increase somewhen again in their demand. Change is neccessary and good for economy.If everyhting in a game economy would always stay the exact same, how it has been years ago, this in fact would be bad for a game economy, if there wouldnt exist never any changes in demands and offers, so that the economy in the game can fluctuate.

I'm not wanting to gut mechanics, I want to make only Masteries as the Main System of all Character progression, because it is simpler, if there is just only 1 single system resposnible for all of that, as when the resposibilities are splitted up between like 5 to 6 smaller sub systems that aren't at all really connected to each other, because if everythign runs under 1 big main system, thigns become simpler, quicker, more structured, more overviewable and this move can be used to add alot of great new character progression based content to the game in form of many useful new and interesting masteries, which didn't existed before, to expand this way significantly this games endgame content on the long run as well..You can't know, if something that was proposed is equal (or worser) as you say, if you don't give new things a chance first to see, what they actually do bring to the game.

If there would be no stats attached to gear, I definetely would stil lget myself more equipment sets thn, one, just for the fashion of the equipment skins, to not have to use for every style change always transmutation stones.With no gear grind in the game, it would become also alot easier for Anet to implement an own official Build Template System, because the game would have to consider then only your Skills, Traits and your Attribute Setting, which isnät then anymore bonded to any equipment. at all.ANet could turn Accessoires & Upgrades into something much more interesting, than just only Stat Givers. Just thinking about these possibilities, all not possible with the current bad mastery system and the bonding of Stats to gear grind, which makes everythign only more unneccessarly complicated, especially with legendary equipment which already allows stat swapping outside of combat.

@Rasimir.6239Theres nothing hard anymore, if the game allows you, just like in GW1 to reset anytime your Stat Build, so that if you are a newbie and you think, you made some kind of mistake for your build, that you can then make changes.In regard of this would become PvE basicaly then only a bit closer to how PvP works, where you are instantly max statted and where you can freely change everythign, before you start a battle. This same freedom would allow PvE for unexperienced players alot more freedom to experimentate around, make their mistakes, learn from them, restat if needed reaslly and try again with a different stat build - with the difference, that they'd not to grind for those stats then any specific gear first, just to get the stat combinations, that you want to have.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Orpheal.8263 said:The difference is, that there is no start up phase anymore, just to get the Base Stats... which is what finds place currently within Level 1 to 80.

Characters will begin the game with base health and stats and then in order to get more stats (that we currently get from gear) they will have to level up their mastery instead. This would make the starting zones the hardest zones in the game wouldn't it? In order to avoid this they'd have to re-balance them -again- making lower tier zones easier than harder level zones. But, which number would they use to balance the zones?

Instead of having ONE number to denote if you are capable of playing in a zone (your level), you will now have 13 (all the mastery abilities). Provided that you can increase only one mastery at a time (or you are gonna change that too?) this means players will have to stay in the lower level zones for a much longer period of time in order to increase all of their mastery abilities. Plus, there will be no way for a player to know when to go to the next zone. Is rank 3 Attribute Mastery + rank 4 Combat Mastery + 2 Mobility Mastery + 5 Specialization Mastery, enough to go to Gendarran Fields?

[MachineManXX.9746]

I don't see anything in this that I could get behind. The below paragraph you wrote pretty much nullifies this entire idea.

"In the current System, you are forced to undergo the process of leveling a Character from 1-80, just to get your maximum Base Stats and to become able to wear this way the best equipment in the game, so that you can start grinding for your BIS equipment for more Stats, just so that you can finaly play after ages of gear grind the build, that you want."

I mean, why do you suddenly start playing after all that? I though you were playing all along? Or are you saying your way of playing is more valid than someone else, therefor Anet should arbitrarily scrap the current system entirely, just to suit your desire to do it differently?

[PzTnT.7198]

So lets see...What would happen to the hundreds of gold people have invested into ascended gear? Would they be forced to grind up their stats through the new masteries? Or does the gear simply become cosmetic and practically worthless? What about stuff like agony resistance, will people be forced to grind fractals from lv1 to get back to where they were?

How does this system prevent people from screwing themselves over by focusing on all the wrong stuff? How will balance be worked? Stuff being designed to always be doable with no mastery upgrades at all and most likely getting roflstomped by higher mastery-level characters?

Basically as i see it, this system would remove leveling and replace it with practically the same thing but without any real reason to grind through it while at the same time nuking the reason the economy even works. What would even drop as loot? Skins? Piles of gold for which you can either get basic cosmetics, which in this case would probably be dirt cheap on one side and massively inflated expensive on the other.In either case it would be a /massive/ project to redesign the entire game for a system like this and for very, very little actual reward as it would replace leveling with slightly guided leveling. People that currently play the game understand the current system well enough, aka: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Shaking it up to that degree at this point in the game would likely cause a mass exodus away from it.

[Orpheal.8263]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Orpheal.8263" said:The difference is, that there is no start up phase anymore, just to get the Base Stats... which is what finds place currently within Level 1 to 80.

Characters will begin the game with base health and stats and then in order to get more stats (that we currently get from gear) they will have to level up their mastery instead. This would make the starting zones the hardest zones in the game wouldn't it? In order to avoid this they'd have to re-balance them -again- making lower tier zones easier than harder level zones. But, which number would they use to balance the zones?

Instead of having ONE number to denote if you are capable of playing in a zone (your level), you will now have 13 (all the mastery abilities). Provided that you can increase only one mastery at a time (or you are gonna change that too?) this means players will have to stay in the lower level zones for a much longer period of time in order to increase all of their mastery abilities. Plus, there will be no way for a player to know when to go to the next zone. Is rank 3 Attribute Mastery + rank 4 Combat Mastery + 2 Mobility Mastery + 5 Specialization Mastery, enough to go to Gendarran Fields?

Good questions, simple answers

Anet would have to rebalance the Maps that currently are not Lvl 80 to be like Level 80 maps, so they woudl have to upscale the enemies, making in fact the content in those maps more challenging, so that the content fits to our Startin Characters, that has then also the maximum Base Stats at this point, so that we''d noit start with lousy 650-900 HP, but with 11000 to 15000 HP instead.It would make startign zones definetely not the hardest zones in the game, but combats surely would only feel after the change a bitt different, if enemies would become now upscaled in those maps, instead of us gettign mostly all downscaled in those maps, unless we play a complete fresh new character.Battles woudl become a slightly bit more challenging before, because compared to now, we's have not the stats from gear anymore to compensate the lack of player skill.The main game maps were for my taste anyways always way too easy, even at times when i was self an unexperienced GW2 newbie with newbie equip, it felt all too easy, there was even GW1 in its maps until you reached the endgame maps more challenging than GW2, so I don't think that makign the game a tiny bit more challenging again, might not hurt, to raise this games niveau again to make it again a bit more equal to GW1's standards and reward player skill and playing together in parties more.

How the game would tell the player, what is enough to go to specific maps?How about maybe good old trial and error? Why must everything be nowadays in games be indicated with numbers, so that players might get an idea of what they are doing or when they should do something in the game?When you fight a monster and you see, that it mows you through the mud with your face first, then I guess you will know, that you were not ready for that kind of enemy and you have to grow stronger, train more, learn something new that might be helpful for you to overcome that challenge..thats character progression, not staring at numbers!!However as a kind of guiding red line could be taken the Personal Story - if you follow it successfully, you will know that by doing its story sequences, that you are ready for the zone you are in at the moment or for where the story progress leads you to. If you can't beat a certain story milestone, then you will know, that everything that is to follow right after this, might cause eventually problems for you, or wil lturn battles for you into somethign more challenghing, than it needs to be for you, if you woudl have learned already some masteries more to have a higher progression on your Stats, thus making everythign again easier for you, until you maybee hit somewhen again a spot in the power curve, where enemies are stronger, than you.

Like seriously, when do you ever meet in this game enemies, that are by design stronger than you, unless they got upscaled by the game, which aren#t by design some kind of HP sponges, ergo Elite/Champions/Legendary foes/monsters? People don't even realize this, if there isn't some kind of red/purple level number above them, that shows you, that their attacks might really hurt, if they hit you. But I think that is something, that numbers shouldnt tell players.. players should experience this by thesmelf, without that colored numbers already show you before the battle begins, that the enemy is physically superior agaisnt you and that you have a tough fight in front of you , if you underestimate your foe, just only because it looks like generic foe/monster number 12 quadrillion that you have easily killed already before. A bit enemy knowledge is important to spice battles up, so that you learn better to estimate your enemies to get not surprised by them due to abysmally underestimating them, only because you could see some kind of warnign red signal number that told you, that its better not to fight agaisnt that monster in front of you, unless you want to learn it by the hard tour.Buut people will learn from such situations and which will feel more rewarding to the player, if they see that they overcome such enemies later, which have beaten them some time ago maybe to a pulp first, due to underestimating them first.

Learning by doing, thats natural character progression, free from any form of signal numbers that distract only from the things, that are really important, without having to look permanently onto numbers which should tell the player, when they are "ready"You are just ready, when your player skills have sharpened enough to overcome the trial and before you reach this point, its trial and error and if thats not enough, then you play together with more people to overcome thigns, you can#t do alone with the help of others, this automatically improves the social aspect of this MMORPG.

[Riku.4821]

I don't think these changes would go with the Flow of Guild Wars 2, or ArenaNets Objectives.Removing levels? Its already easy to obtain level 80. There is no rush to get to 80 either. For the casual player that is.There isn't really any reason to revisit the NPE, or in your view, overhaul it. NPE is meant for simplistic casual players. Anyone who's played an MMO before doesn't need a NPE. This isn't Warframe or Dark Souls where nothing is spoon fed to you. It's all pretty self explanatory. Even at the start of the expansions, its pretty simple. Warframe you need to read the entire Wiki before you truely understand the game. This game, if you've played an MMO before, you already know what to do.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Orpheal.8263" said:Anet would have to rebalance the Maps that currently are not Lvl 80 to be like Level 80 maps, so they woudl have to upscale the enemies, making in fact the content in those maps more challenging, so that the content fits to our Startin Characters, that has then also the maximum Base Stats at this point, so that we''d noit start with lousy 650-900 HP, but with 11000 to 15000 HP instead.

If they make all zones level 80 but the player doesn't start with all the skills, utilities, traits and the equal to stats from gear then the starting zones will be really hard and as you progress it will become too easy. To put it into perspective it's like asking a player with no skills/traits unlocked and only white gear to enter Cursed Shore. Not gonna be a very good experience.

How about maybe good old trial and error? Why must everything be nowadays in games be indicated with numbers, so that players might get an idea of what they are doing or when they should do something in the game?

Trial and error will never work in any current gen MMORPG. It might've been a way to work a long time ago, but we are way past that point. MMORPGs (and RPGs in general) use that little level number to guide players to the next part of the world they should be playing. Imagine a player that has great progress in his "Combat Mastery" but zero progress in his "Attribute Mastery", it's like playing in Cursed Shore with white gear but a great number of skills to choose from, or the reverse, a player that has good stats but not enough skills unlocked, like playing in Cursed Shore with white gear. Leveling works the way it does, giving you both skills and stats at the same time, for a reason, it's easier to balance zones with one number in mind and not many more.

Plus every single game needs a tutorial. Throwing players against the "end game" after they exit the starting town isn't a very good experience. Leave 1-80 the way it is and instead find ways to utilize more mastery abilities for the "after 80" progression.

[Orpheal.8263]

@MachineManXX.9746

I don't just play suddenly, I play since the begin of GW2.. ive leveled multiple characters from 1 to 80 without using a single leveling tome...all by dpoing only story, exploration, kills ,dungeons ect. so normally playing the game like it shoudl be done.With the paragraph you quoted there from me I do mean only, that under the current system, we need to reach first Level 80, before we have practically our Base Stats and before we become even able to use Masteries, which is somethign in regard of Character Progression, I do find wrong by now...Years ago, I wouldn't even thought, I would ever post somethign like this now.. several years ago, I was even more at the opinion, before Masteries existed, that the right way to give this game more and better character progression is by raising the level cap to 100 and be done with it ... oh boy, how wrong I was - I do now realize... it woudl have been a simpler soltion, but by far not one, with that kind of detail and depth, than what I propose now, and how I do see things now with the Mastery System back in my mind, seeing how much more potential lies behind that for a much better and more depthful character progression - one that could easily surpass everything we know and have ever seen before in other older games... if it just gets extracted out of the expansion model and becomes a geneal integrated system to use for everybody right from the start when you created a new character, not first after beign forced to still undergo the outdated leveling process first.Thats why I came up with the idea, of how the game would be, if everything, and with this I really mean everything would be based just only on Masteries in its truest form as a feature that is absolutely connected to all sub elements of character progression as its real main system.

@"PzTnT.7198"

Ascended/Legendary Equipment would become just Fashion and Materials to be used to craft Legendary Equipment, turnign basically Ascended Stuff kind of a new additional part required to craft Precursors.Like mentioned, Gear would provide no Stats anymore, so Ascended stuff would provide not anymore its higher Stat bonus over Exotics, if you want that Stat Bonus, you'd have to learn then Masteries to receive these Stat Points. This would help rebalancing especially a bit again WvW and close the gap between poorer and richer players, which can't affort getting themself complete ascended equipment sets for all their characters you want to play actively and all of their various buildsAgony Resistance doesn't get affected. its part of the equipments upgrade system that comes together with Infusion Slots.. so basicalyl Ascended/legendary Equipment stays unique for their infusion Slots and in case of AR for Fractals, so that essentially Ascended Equipment stays needed gameplay technically only for fractals and if you want to have visual fluff from Auras. No min-maxings anymore form Stat point infusions.. points you will get now only via Masteries then.

You ask me, what will get dropped still from enenmies, if not gear ? Really ? Theres more than enough that can drop from enemies. Gold (Junk), Karma, Exp Boosts, Materials and stuff to salvage for materials, upgrades (Sigils/Runes) directly eventually, after being reworked and rebalanced, so that they provide also no stats anymore. Or maybe other interesting and rarer things, like rarely minipets, like some kind of monster cards for a new ingame cardgame, which can be also used as some kind of new upgrade item as wlel too similar like in Ragnarok Online, they could drop tradeable items, that cou can return in for rewards at Trophy Collector NPCs, so called Monster Trophies..with a bit of brainstormign you find more than enough thigns that killed enemies can dropp, dropped gear items are not everything, only because gear stats got remove,d but yes, they could naturally also drop "gear skins" then, or craftign recipes kind of for that kind of stuff so that you can craft you your skins, so that there is again some demand embedded that requires certain materials which may have lost their demands, due to lots of recipes getting removed, cause theyd be not needed anymore, if gear stats gets removed. to replace those removed recipes and keep the demand for certain materials up.

[Orpheal.8263]

@maddoctor.2738

Everything that the player needs to know, can the player learn already in the tutorial areas of this game to learn there the basic skills and gameplay aspects for your weapons ect, before you start the actual real game and get to the starter maps. Thats essentially what also GW1 did. so where is the problem to fix that with GW2s tutorials and expand the tutorials a bit?So why force us to unlock the basics within 80 levels after the tutorials, if everything of that can be learned already in the tutorial area to prepare the player to what awaits him after that?And your comparison is flawed, because it depends of how high Anet would scale up the enemies in the end, it would be correct only, if they don't scale up the equipment we receive as well, because if they scale up our equipment as well, then there would be no neccessarity even more to have white, blue, green, orange rarity grades of equipment anymore, and the effectiveness of our equipment after going out of the tutorial would be directly of that of level 80 equipment, not that of uneffective beginner stuff.So starting a Character after my proposal woudl feel more like playing a Lvl 80 character with fitting Level 80 quipment if both sides get appropriately balanced and rescaled, so that battles feel good and balanced and no side either way too strogn, nor way too weak, but there should be occasionally naturally more challenging monsters to find, that are togher, if you try to fight them solo naturally still, as if you go agaisnt them with multiple players together.Like said, I'm for it, that fights shoudl become a bit more challening and high classy to the way how GW1 was, because compared to GW1 feels GW2 like being a shadow of its prequel in regard of challenging pve combats and its NPE design/difficulty.. gw2 got dumbed down too much tbh. But thats a different topic now.

A player with great progress in Combat Mastery, but low progress in Attribute Masteries, will be a formidable fighter, but just a weak one, which will have tougher longer lasting fights, than maybe someone, whos not so goot in Combat Masteires progressed, but is significantly stronger in Attributes. Its just only a shift of combat pace, but but can potentially overcome the challenge, what matters the most in the end is player skill. Thats how GW1 was, thats how GW2 should be too and in GW1 you were always able to reset your Character Setting, the same should be possible then in GW2 to for when you think, you have with your current build too much problems, then you reset your Character and rebuild it from a new. That would be doable anywhere outside of combat with Stats.. with Masteries this woudl be doable in Towns.100% Character Build Freedom basicalyl anytime. That is key for a restructured Mastery System where everythign is based only on Masteries. This proposed system can't work well, if GW2 doesn#t receive like GW1 had it its 100% build freedom back and the option to reset your settings anytime, if neccessary, so that plsayers can't manouver themself into dead ends, and if they should do, that its then only a matter of a few clicks, to change their builds to one, that will bring them further - completely free of any gear grind!.

[Zohane.7208]

I am probably an average player, I play this game for entertainment purposes. I find that the relaxed levelling is a very nice experience for building up my new toons. Every level I get some enhancement to my character - and I don't have to spend huge amounts of time deciding if I want to do this or that attribute at this level. Having to pick that every single time - and only be able to reset this in a town would detract immensly from the Entertainment value, and would turn levelling into a horrible chore for me.You have not yet demonstrated anything that I would find would enhance my experience from this game. Therefore I still completely and utterly reject this idea and pray to all 5 that it never become a reality.

[starhunter.6015]

No just No, as many have expressed the Masteries are tied to expacs, F2P can't use masteries. Also leveling up for new players does help them learn the classes and game mechanics better. Have you not heard the cries of new players who instantly boosted to lvl 80 and had no clue what to do .

[Einlanzer.1627]

I definitely think there are some flaws with the progression system, and there are an infinite number of ways it could be revamped. I think my methods would be something like the below:

• reduce levels from 80 to 50, slow the leveling speed down a little, and make the rewards for each level feel a bit more significant. 80 levels just feels like too many for the leveling content the game offers, and because there are so many levels you end up zipping through them at an awkwardly fast pace.

• re-separate trait and skill progression systems. Consolidating them under a unified resource and train UI was a weird move that resulted in a system that feels too simple while also being clunkier and more awkward than the original system used at launch. Skills and traits are supposed to complement each other, not be in a resource competition with one another. This would also allow them to rethink the progression of elite specs, which is also weird (you unlock it immediately but can't really use it because equipping actually weakens you due to having no traits unlocked for it, so you can't really experiment with it without gimping yourself until you've fully unlocked it. That makes no sense. )

• this one would have a huge impact on the economy if changed now, but I would have designed gear with only rarity and not levels. Attribute bonuses should scale by character level and gear rarity, not by gear level. This design has two unfortunate in-game effects - a.) way too much green/blue gear loot bloat, which makes the whole looting process (as well as crafting) feel really trite and uninteresting, and b.) disincentivizing experimentation while leveling due to how quickly you outlevel gear (i.e. who buys sigils and runes for anything other than level 80 exotics?)

• I would significantly revise the personal story. They tried to do too much with the branching paths and whatnot and it resulted in a story narrative that felt mediocre in terms of writing and development compared to GW1's story. It also pigeonholed the game in really myopic ways, like making it very difficult to introduce new races.

• add at least one or two reserve weapon skills for all weapons that can be swapped with existing skills to provide some degree of weapon customization. Having your first 5 skills be totally locked based on your weapon choice was a very iffy move. MMOs like GW2 really thrive on customization, which is the main reason GW1 was loved so much.

• I think the mastery system is actually really solid, but it's still a bit light in execution and could use some meaty enhancements.

[Sarrs.4831]

I don't really think the game needs drastic system reworks.

If I were going to do a rework I'd just try to collapse the skill class training with the specialization training; putting Tricks into Trickery, for example.

Possibly collapse the Training window back up into the Skills window.

[battledrone.8315]

@Orpheal.8263 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Orpheal.8263 said:The difference is, that there is no start up phase anymore, just to get the Base Stats... which is what finds place currently within Level 1 to 80.

Characters will begin the game with base health and stats and then in order to get more stats (that we currently get from gear) they will have to level up their mastery instead. This would make the starting zones the hardest zones in the game wouldn't it? In order to avoid this they'd have to re-balance them -again- making lower tier zones easier than harder level zones. But, which number would they use to balance the zones?

Instead of having ONE number to denote if you are capable of playing in a zone (your level), you will now have 13 (all the mastery abilities). Provided that you can increase only one mastery at a time (or you are gonna change that too?) this means players will have to stay in the lower level zones for a much longer period of time in order to increase all of their mastery abilities. Plus, there will be no way for a player to know when to go to the next zone. Is rank 3 Attribute Mastery + rank 4 Combat Mastery + 2 Mobility Mastery + 5 Specialization Mastery, enough to go to Gendarran Fields?

Good questions, simple answers

Anet would have to rebalance the Maps that currently are not Lvl 80 to be like Level 80 maps, so they woudl have to upscale the enemies, making in fact the content in those maps more challenging, so that the content fits to our Startin Characters, that has then also the maximum Base Stats at this point, so that we''d noit start with lousy 650-900 HP, but with 11000 to 15000 HP instead.It would make startign zones definetely not the hardest zones in the game, but combats surely would only feel after the change a bitt different, if enemies would become now upscaled in those maps, instead of us gettign mostly all downscaled in those maps, unless we play a complete fresh new character.Battles woudl become a slightly bit more challenging before, because compared to now, we's have not the stats from gear anymore to compensate the lack of player skill.The main game maps were for my taste anyways always way too easy, even at times when i was self an unexperienced GW2 newbie with newbie equip, it felt all too easy, there was even GW1 in its maps until you reached the endgame maps more challenging than GW2, so I don't think that makign the game a tiny bit more challenging again, might not hurt, to raise this games niveau again to make it again a bit more equal to GW1's standards and reward player skill and playing together in parties more.

How the game would tell the player, what is enough to go to specific maps?How about maybe good old trial and error? Why must everything be nowadays in games be indicated with numbers, so that players might get an idea of what they are doing or when they should do something in the game?When you fight a monster and you see, that it mows you through the mud with your face first, then I guess you will know, that you were not ready for that kind of enemy and you have to grow stronger, train more, learn something new that might be helpful for you to overcome that challenge..thats character progression, not staring at numbers!!However as a kind of guiding red line could be taken the Personal Story - if you follow it successfully, you will know that by doing its story sequences, that you are ready for the zone you are in at the moment or for where the story progress leads you to. If you can't beat a certain story milestone, then you will know, that everything that is to follow right after this, might cause eventually problems for you, or wil lturn battles for you into somethign more challenghing, than it needs to be for you, if you woudl have learned already some masteries more to have a higher progression on your Stats, thus making everythign again easier for you, until you maybee hit somewhen again a spot in the power curve, where enemies are stronger, than you.

Like seriously, when do you ever meet in this game enemies, that are by design stronger than you, unless they got upscaled by the game, which aren#t by design some kind of HP sponges, ergo Elite/Champions/Legendary foes/monsters? People don't even realize this, if there isn't some kind of red/purple level number above them, that shows you, that their attacks might really hurt, if they hit you. But I think that is something, that numbers shouldnt tell players.. players should experience this by thesmelf, without that colored numbers already show you before the battle begins, that the enemy is physically superior agaisnt you and that you have a tough fight in front of you , if you underestimate your foe, just only because it looks like generic foe/monster number 12 quadrillion that you have easily killed already before. A bit enemy knowledge is important to spice battles up, so that you learn better to estimate your enemies to get not surprised by them due to abysmally underestimating them, only because you could see some kind of warnign red signal number that told you, that its better not to fight agaisnt that monster in front of you, unless you want to learn it by the hard tour.Buut people will learn from such situations and which will feel more rewarding to the player, if they see that they overcome such enemies later, which have beaten them some time ago maybe to a pulp first, due to underestimating them first.

Learning by doing, thats natural character progression, free from any form of signal numbers that distract only from the things, that are really important, without having to look permanently onto numbers which should tell the player, when they are "ready"You are just ready, when your player skills have sharpened enough to overcome the trial and before you reach this point, its trial and error and if thats not enough, then you play together with more people to overcome thigns, you can#t do alone with the help of others, this automatically improves the social aspect of this

MMO

RPG.

go to any game dev with those ideas, if theyre really nice they might explain to you why this wouldnt work in todays marketor, you could just pony up the 50 mio bucks to try for for yourself

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Einlanzer.1627 said:I definitely think there are some flaws with the progression system, and there are an infinite number of ways it could be revamped. I think my methods would be something like the below:

• reduce levels from 80 to 50, slow the leveling speed down a little, and make the rewards for each level feel a bit more significant. 80 levels just feels like too many for the leveling content the game offers, and because there are so many levels you end up zipping through them at an awkwardly fast pace.

• re-separate trait and skill progression systems. Consolidating them under a unified resource and train UI was a weird move that resulted in a system that feels too simple while also being clunkier and more awkward than the original system used at launch. Skills and traits are supposed to complement each other, not be in a resource competition with one another. This would also allow them to rethink the progression of elite specs, which is also weird (you unlock it immediately but can't really use it because equipping actually weakens you due to having no traits unlocked for it, so you can't really experiment with it without gimping yourself until you've fully unlocked it. That makes no sense. )

• this one would have a huge impact on the economy if changed now, but I would have designed gear with only rarity and not levels. Attribute bonuses should scale by character level and gear rarity, not by gear level. This design has two unfortunate in-game effects - a.) way too much green/blue gear loot bloat, which makes the whole looting process (as well as crafting) feel really trite and uninteresting, and b.) disincentivizing experimentation while leveling due to how quickly you outlevel gear (i.e. who buys sigils and runes for anything other than level 80 exotics?)

• I would significantly revise the personal story. They tried to do too much with the branching paths and whatnot and it resulted in a story narrative that felt mediocre in terms of writing and development compared to GW1's story. It also pigeonholed the game in really myopic ways, like making it very difficult to introduce new races.

Remove specs and masteries make it work like before spec system came then it was good you had earn your traitsAnd for gear make it account bind so you only need one(meanibg its equipted affects all characters more conviniant less work more reward=leads too happier players )

[battledrone.8315]

no to account bound gear, it looks great on paper. but it ruins more , than it fixes IMO

[broFenix.1632]

I think the character progression is just fine as it is. I feel sincerely that the Elite Specializations and Mastery system blend nearly seamlessly with the original progression system. I love the hero point and mastery mix of progression post level 80.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@"broFenix.1632" said:I think the character progression is just fine as it is. I feel sincerely that the Elite Specializations and Mastery system blend nearly seamlessly with the original progression system. I love the hero point and mastery mix of progression post level 80.

I'd like to understand why people think that skills and traits being tied to the same resource is fine, since they are designed to complement each other. They aren't supposed to be in competition with each other. That's why the system at launch had them on separate progression tracks. You weren't sacrificing acquisition of skills for acquisition of traits, and vice versa, because doing that makes no sense given their respective roles in character building.

To me, this is a very obvious and fundamental "bad game design" problem. Ditto with how elite specs work. You unlock them along with a new weapon for them, but you can't really use it because you have no traits unlocked, so equipping it actually makes you weaker until you fully trait it out after many more hours of gameplay. That's a nonsensical system.

[Gomes.5643]

Just saying .... a whole lot of negative arguments would be disappearing if we dont force that system into gw2 but make it a basis for an hypothetical GW3.

[battledrone.8315]

@"Gomes.5643" said:Just saying .... a whole lot of negative arguments would be disappearing if we dont force that system into gw2 but make it a basis for an hypothetical GW3.

no, it is doubtful that anyone with money would invest in such a projectnormal mmos are declining, so they wont touch anything "special" and risky