Core elementalist rework

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

Hey fellas ! I was looking for a rework thread to reply but didn't see any on the first page ... Sorry

The Background :

I play Elementalist since Launch (with some pauses) and I mostly play all game modes at various time but especially spvp is what I played the most. Used to fractals and raids since few months (It took me quite some time to get into raids tho ... you need motivation to start that trip) so now I think I can understand the whole ele plot .

The Issue

due to how the ele works (I'll explain how i think it works) it's [was] the best dps class in pve for quite some time (almost since the beginning) but in spvp you only see it as bunker/support type . Then you would answer :" hey fresh air isn't a support / bunker build" OKay true ... this will lead to my point later. You could try to make some offensive builds but it wasn't really working ... then you should probably wonder :"why am I able to be top dps in pve and so little damge in spvp." And for me there are multiple reasons that enforce this phenomenon.

• Traits : you're able to deal that much dmg in pve cause almost all your traits are damage modifier. I don't know all traits from any classes but ele is able to do that much dmg thanks to specializing (new word here) into multiple damage modifier traits (enjoy reading that). So basically all your defensive options are inexistant, then it's impossible at this point to replicate those damage in spvp unless you want to be One shot by every single guy that's coming around (it's fun but not realistic competitive wise)

• The superposition of Areas of effect : The best build in pve is a staff build. Why so ? most of all cause it has huge amount of AOEs. The skills alone doesn't deals that much dmg but all together, it's huge. Then again... why doesn't that work in spvp too ? Cause (Most of) people are not that dumb to stay in the AOEs too much... so basically it takes time to cast ... the dmg tick is every second... so you'll be very lucky if the enemy is getting hit by 2 ticks (or he's immob or CC or down) Back in the days you could surprise ppl with a meteor shower now ...

• The mechanics of attunement and the role it got : most of "old" weapons (cause it's not really true about sword now) were based on range instead of role such as other classes. Let me explain. Take the staff again ... before POF, most of your damage in your pve rotation was in fire and some in AIR . You would never swap to water and almost never in earth (just for opening) Now it got better thanks to weaver cause earth-fire skills are good. Then the tempest build was almost water for heal and fire for might.The point is : each attunement has its own role and it's not really based on the weapon.

• Fire : burning - dmg- might

• Water : chill - heal - cleansing

• Air : dmg - blind/CC - movement speed

• Earth : Bleed - prot - immune/CCRole play wise it's okay I guess (but who cares ? some I know) Then it goes wrong cause of this. You can't get full potential of the weapon on a specific build cause of the fundamental design of the weapon and the attunement role.

The solution

A Huge work but worth it if you want to raise the skill cap and the capabilities of the class. Instead of splitting the roles between attunements , you need to split the role between weapons. I'll take the scepter has the greatest example of what I'm saying. Basically , all scepter skills are damaging skills or usefull for damage. Even in water, your spells deal damage (especially since shatterstone got buffed 5 times in a row)

Then you would split any weapon thanks to that scheme:

• Dagger main hand (Support): adding more defensive skills and healing => remove some damaging skill
• Staff (PvE) : rework water skills
• Scepter (Ranged Dps) : AAs needs rework. the rest is fine except earth skills
• Focus (Scepter complementary for mobility) : need just one mobility skill to be perfect for scepter. Water 4 is the best option to be reworked imo.
• Dagger Offhand (works best with sword): since sword is lacking some dmg, retweeking dagger offhand less popular skills (ring of fire - frost aura - earthquake) could bring the best damage it needs.

Then traits need to be changed to get more mechanics aspect instead of just damage multiplier. The trait lines that need the more to be changed are fire and earth. Those two lines have no synergy with the rest. Fire trait line only gives damage multiplier and longuer fire field duration. even the fury buff is personnal (sad). I won't talk about earth since it has been weird since the beginning. Nothing really usefull except the lamest thing in history that' doesn't even work now . Stone heart and diamond skin.But if you remove some dmg multiplier , you need to increase all based dmg. that way, elementalist would be less selfish (now only arcane gives some boon and water some cleansing) and be able to provide more utilities.

I'm feeling lazy right now to develop more my thoughts so I think I'll post it like that haha.

Feel free to add/ask anything.

[Josif.2015]

@"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

• Scepter (Ranged Dps) : AAs needs rework. the rest is fine except earth skills
• Focus (Scepter complementary for mobility) : need just one mobility skill to be perfect for scepter. Water 4 is the best option to be reworked imo.

Feel free to add/ask anything.

I believe that core elementalist is fine as it is and it doesn't need a rework. But what does need a rework are some of the scepter and focus skills. As much as I love playing sc/f core elementalist, I think that some of the skills are very lackluster and they could be made better:

1. Flamestrike

This is without a doubt the worst auto attack the scepter has. It doesn't know whether it wants to be a power skill or condition skill. Not only that, but the cast time ruins it for me. My recommendation is to increase the damage so that it has the 2nd highest damage right next to the air auto attack, reduce the cast time from 1 second to 0.5 seconds and make it attack foes behind you. Elementalist is very limited when it comes to kiting foes, so why not make this skill the best skill when it comes to kiting enemies? Fire skills are meant to be damage skills, yet the air skills outperform them in terms of damage.

2. Stone Shards

The second worst auto attack. It has the same damage as Flamestrike, but what makes it worse is the cast time of 1.5 seconds. Increase the damage so that it has the 3rd highest damage, reduce the cast time from 1.5 seconds to 0.75 seconds and have it apply weakness along with bleeding. The staff auto attack while attuned to earth applies weakness, so I think it would be nice if it applied weakness, to make core elementalist less squishy and because earth skills are meant to be used for defense.

3. Ice Shards

While it's not the worst auto attack, it's not that great either. It deals more damage than both Flamestrike and Stone Shards and scales better with power damage. Honestly I have no idea on how to change this auto attack. Maybe change the trait Piercing Shards to apply vulnerability or chilled while you're attuned to water?

4. Flamewall

Increase the damage and change the fire field from a line to a radius. I think this would be a lot better than trying to position a line. It would work similar to engineers' Bomb Kit skill 2 Fire Bomb.

5. Fire Shield

Increase the burning duration when enemies hit you and maybe reduce the cooldown from 25 seconds to 20 seconds. Either that or make it an AoE fire explosion that applies strong burning damage. This would be the only instant cast condition skill that can be used for defensive purposes.

6. Freezing Gust

Make it an AoE water field that heals you and allies. I know that Water Trident exists, but what I think would be amazing is to make Water Trident a blast finisher. It looks like it is, but it isn't. So, once you attune to water, you can use Freezing Gust to heal yourself and allies, then follow it up with Water Trident to increase the amount of healing. It's what I'm doing with core engineer with the Med Kit. It has both a water field and a blast finisher, and you can use other blast finishers while the field lasts to increase the healing.

7. Comet

Have it apply chilled that lasts for 5 seconds along with the daze. This may seem like it could be broken, but this is the only skill that hits foes behind you. I was thinking why not have this skill apply chilled while you're kiting enemies? It would be amazing to combine this water skill with fire skills to kite enemies.

[Jski.6180]

Core ele needs more effects on fields blasting filling that balance roll better.

[Dadnir.5038]

A Huge work but worth it if you want to raise the skill cap

So there is a need to raise the skill cap for the elementalist? Most elementalist say that this profession is the one with the highest skill cap yet you say that it need to be raised even higher? Great!

[Jaxd.2196]

Isn’t core fresh air ele still pretty strong for WvW roaming?

[Ryou.2398]

As others it does not need a rework, in my experience people just want something because other classes are getting it for their favorite classes, I am not being rude it is just something I noticed, which creates to much bias, it can use improvements but a rework? The core ele plays great I personally love it.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

A Huge work but worth it if you want to raise the skill cap

So there is a need to raise the skill cap for the elementalist? Most elementalist say that this profession is the one with the highest skill cap yet you say that it need to be raised even higher? Great!

Maybe i'm biaised since the spvp build now is pretty faceroll as long as you manage to avoid your opponent . But hey i'm playing this class since launch so it feels pretty easy to me.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:

A Huge work but worth it if you want to raise the skill cap

So there is a need to raise the skill cap for the elementalist? Most elementalist say that this profession is the one with the highest skill cap yet you say that it need to be raised even higher? Great!

Maybe i'm biaised since the spvp build now is pretty faceroll as long as you manage to avoid your opponent . But hey i'm playing this class since launch so it feels pretty easy to me.

Well, I agree with you that it's not a profession "hard" to play but I think the same about all professions. Just that I feel like raising the skill cap of the elementalist might make quite a lot player cry rivers.

For me the elementalist and each of it's e-spec is just a matter of "rythm". You either get the rythm or you fail at it.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

A Huge work but worth it if you want to raise the skill cap

So there is a need to raise the skill cap for the elementalist? Most elementalist say that this profession is the one with the highest skill cap yet you say that it need to be raised even higher? Great!

Maybe i'm biaised since the spvp build now is pretty faceroll as long as you manage to avoid your opponent . But hey i'm playing this class since launch so it feels pretty easy to me.

Well, I agree with you that it's not a profession "hard" to play but I think the same about all professions. Just that I feel like raising the skill cap of the elementalist might make quite a lot player cry rivers.

For me the elementalist and each of it's e-spec is just a matter of "rythm". You either get the rythm or you fail at it.

Well ... i'm just bored of attunements defining the rythm of the elementalist and making it predictable . You know ... water : he's gonna heal , earth - air : nothing to worry to much since i still have stunbreaks f, fire : he's going to burst ...

You see ... that's why i wanted more about the weapon leading the role instead of just spamming the attunement ... jack of all trades doesn't work anymore with all the powercreep. That's why ele is so "bad" actually (in a bad state compared to the glory age)

[Dadnir.5038]

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

A Huge work but worth it if you want to raise the skill cap

So there is a need to raise the skill cap for the elementalist? Most elementalist say that this profession is the one with the highest skill cap yet you say that it need to be raised even higher? Great!

Maybe i'm biaised since the spvp build now is pretty faceroll as long as you manage to avoid your opponent . But hey i'm playing this class since launch so it feels pretty easy to me.

Well, I agree with you that it's not a profession "hard" to play but I think the same about all professions. Just that I feel like raising the skill cap of the elementalist might make quite a lot player cry rivers.

For me the elementalist and each of it's e-spec is just a matter of "rythm". You either get the rythm or you fail at it.

Well ... i'm just bored of attunements defining the rythm of the elementalist and making it predictable . You know ... water : he's gonna heal , earth - air : nothing to worry to much since i still have stunbreaks f, fire : he's going to burst ...

You see ... that's why i wanted more about the weapon leading the role instead of just spamming the attunement ... jack of all trades doesn't work anymore with all the powercreep. That's why ele is so "bad" actually (in a bad state compared to the glory age)

From my point of view, the only thing the elementalist need is a defensive mechanism on F5 that need a ressource to be built and allow some time for the elementalist to unleash it's burst. It doesn't need fancy damage skill or anything else, just an on demand balanced "breather" which isn't tied to it's weapons (or attunment) or utility skill. Which globally mean that instead of another e-spec oriented toward damage or support, they need an e-spec that seem focused on defense allowing elementalists to part with water attunment in PvP (well I suspect that some would still stay glued to this attunment).

And yes, ele was a bad*ss in the first years in it's DD build. I can still remember this duo of elementalist in WvW which were wrecking my server's player at 2 vs 10... This was shamefull... Well, that was still an era where we had to build might by relying on blast finisher thought.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

You forgot Churning Earth, it needs at least the cast time halved, only reason to use it is for the blast.And Ride the Lightning should be reverted to the orginal state.

[ThiBash.5634]

@"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

The Background :

I play Elementalist since Launch (with some pauses) and I mostly play all game modes at various time but especially spvp is what I played the most. Used to fractals and raids since few months (It took me quite some time to get into raids tho ... you need motivation to start that trip) so now I think I can understand the whole ele plot .

The Issue

due to how the ele works (I'll explain how i think it works) it's [was] the best dps class in pve for quite some time (almost since the beginning) but in spvp you only see it as bunker/support type . Then you would answer :" hey fresh air isn't a support / bunker build" OKay true ... this will lead to my point later. You could try to make some offensive builds but it wasn't really working ... then you should probably wonder :"why am I able to be top dps in pve and so little damge in spvp." And for me there are multiple reasons that enforce this phenomenon.

• Traits : you're able to deal that much dmg in pve cause almost all your traits are damage modifier. I don't know all traits from any classes but ele is able to do that much dmg thanks to specializing (new word here) into multiple damage modifier traits (enjoy reading that). So basically all your defensive options are inexistant, then it's impossible at this point to replicate those damage in spvp unless you want to be One shot by every single guy that's coming around (it's fun but not realistic competitive wise)

• The superposition of Areas of effect : The best build in pve is a staff build. Why so ? most of all cause it has huge amount of AOEs. The skills alone doesn't deals that much dmg but all together, it's huge. Then again... why doesn't that work in spvp too ? Cause (Most of) people are not that dumb to stay in the AOEs too much... so basically it takes time to cast ... the dmg tick is every second... so you'll be very lucky if the enemy is getting hit by 2 ticks (or he's immob or CC or down) Back in the days you could surprise ppl with a meteor shower now ...

• The mechanics of attunement and the role it got : most of "old" weapons (cause it's not really true about sword now) were based on range instead of role such as other classes. Let me explain. Take the staff again ... before POF, most of your damage in your pve rotation was in fire and some in AIR . You would never swap to water and almost never in earth (just for opening) Now it got better thanks to weaver cause earth-fire skills are good. Then the tempest build was almost water for heal and fire for might.The point is : each attunement has its own role and it's not really based on the weapon.

• Fire : burning - dmg- might

• Water : chill - heal - cleansing

• Air : dmg - blind/CC - movement speed

• Earth : Bleed - prot - immune/CCRole play wise it's okay I guess (but who cares ? some I know) Then it goes wrong cause of this. You can't get full potential of the weapon on a specific build cause of the fundamental design of the weapon and the attunement role.

Disagree on pretty much all you wrote (the 'issues' you list, aren't so much issues but rather characteristics of the class/gameplay) but especially that last comment. Yes, you cannot get both max heal and max dps on a weapon. But that doesn't mean you do not get the 'full potential'. When going full dps, the heals/cleanses in water function as a 'free set of backup skills' that you can use if things do not go perfectly. For a healing build, the opposite is true as well: when your heals aren't needed, you can easily go to fire and add (at least some) dps, boons or utility effects.

You're looking at the ele from speedclear raid perspective only, where to focus is very niche. You may not use every skill all the time, but at least most skills have a use or purpose at least some of the time.

It may seem like I'm coming across as very stubborn and unwilling for the ele to change. The reason for that is that I really, really like the way elementalist is now. Personally, I've found ways to work around the unique challenges that come with the profession. I greatly fear that the suggested reworks, with the best intentions, will result in an elementalist that is less diverse and more niche, ultimately ending up in a gameplay style I don't like (we have the other professions for more focused roles). Therefore, I'd really like to focus on keeping the parts of what makes the ele unique first, then fixing things, instead of the other way around.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

@ThiBash.5634Basically I don't understand why a core characteristic of a class couldn't be an issue ... if it's the case , that's why the class needs a rework ! and i'm not claiming it should have one ... but it could be nice to give some time on it.

And i'm kinda triggered by what you 've said there " You're looking at the ele from speedclear raid perspective only" well I just took the staff weapon as an exemple . Cause it's the weapon on the most efficient ele build , all game mode wise. So it was easier. but saying I only have a pve perspective is wrong. You jsut didn't get my point and you just want to confront it entirely. I'm mostly a spvp player. I have the highest number of games on ele then engineer then revenant. So trust me when i'm saying that rework could best fit to spvp (or maybe not) but i have suggested that rework to improve the class for spvp mainly.

[ThiBash.5634]

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:Basically I don't understand why a core characteristic of a class couldn't be an issue ... if it's the case , that's why the class needs a rework ! and i'm not claiming it should have one ... but it could be nice to give some time on it.It's not an issue because it was intentionally designed that way. Compare it to the classic light/medium/heavy class concept. With that setup, it is common for the light class to be more flexible/mobile/faster and the heavy class to be stronger, more robust and slower. Both classes have their own strengths and weaknesses. On its own, the lack of defense of the light class could be considered an issue. In context however, its part of its unique playstyle that differs from the other class. As such, focusing solely on the weaknesses that the ele has, without acknowledging its strengths is not the way to go imho.

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:And i'm kinda triggered by what you 've said there " You're looking at the ele from speedclear raid perspective only"What I meant by that is that the way I read what you wrote (and correct me if I misread), you want every part of the ele to focus on a single, predefined thing. Either damage, or support, or cc. But that's not how the ele was designed. Even in niche scenario's (like being a raid dps), the ele still has access to those non-dps skills. Thus, removing heals from staff water simply because they don't add to dps is going against what makes the ele fun: on the fly versatility.

Rather than making the ele more specific, the discussion should be about how to make its versatility more effective without turning it into an overpowered profession like it was back when cele was meta. In that respect, staff is actually the most balanced weapon due to its combo potential (both the actual field/finisher mechanic and combinations of skills). There was some PvP footage of a staff ele a while back who really knew how to make use of all their skill. They used their skills in combinations to make the heavy hitters like Ice Spike land (through very skillful placing of Static Field and Unsteady Ground). By picking certain combinations, that person adapted to the flow of the fight based on what they needed, rather than some predefined burst or rotation.

In my opinion, the ideal ele would be one where you make tactical choices while playing. Things like: "You get 1 blast finisher which you can either use on a healing field to heal, or on a fire field for might, but you have to pick one, you can't do both." Where say, a ranger would prepare to either be dps or a healer in advance, the ele would pick during the fight. But because they cannot do both at the same time, they'd still be balanced. The way attunements work kinda reflects that already: you can heal with water, but not dps, and if you switch to fire, you cannot heal for a while. It may be harder to design, balance and play, but it makes the ele stand apart from the other professions. Which, imho is a good thing.

[Allarius.5670]

@ThiBash.5634 said:

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:Basically I don't understand why a core characteristic of a class couldn't be an issue ... if it's the case , that's why the class needs a rework ! and i'm not claiming it should have one ... but it could be nice to give some time on it.It's not an issue because it was intentionally designed that way. Compare it to the classic light/medium/heavy class concept. With that setup, it is common for the light class to be more flexible/mobile/faster and the heavy class to be stronger, more robust and slower. Both classes have their own strengths and weaknesses. On its own, the lack of defense of the light class could be considered an issue. In context however, its part of its unique playstyle that differs from the other class. As such, focusing solely on the weaknesses that the ele has, without acknowledging its strengths is not the way to go imho.

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:And i'm kinda triggered by what you 've said there " You're looking at the ele from speedclear raid perspective only"What I meant by that is that the way I read what you wrote (and correct me if I misread), you want every part of the ele to focus on a single, predefined thing. Either damage, or support, or cc. But that's not how the ele was designed. Even in niche scenario's (like being a raid dps), the ele still has access to those non-dps skills. Thus, removing heals from staff water simply because they don't add to dps is going against what makes the ele fun: on the fly versatility.

Rather than making the ele more specific, the discussion should be about how to make its versatility more effective without turning it into an overpowered profession like it was back when cele was meta. In that respect, staff is actually the most balanced weapon due to its combo potential (both the actual field/finisher mechanic and combinations of skills). There was some PvP footage of a staff ele a while back who really knew how to make use of all their skill. They used their skills in combinations to make the heavy hitters like Ice Spike land (through very skillful placing of Static Field and Unsteady Ground). By picking certain combinations, that person adapted to the flow of the fight based on what they needed, rather than some predefined burst or rotation.

In my opinion, the ideal ele would be one where you make tactical choices while playing. Things like: "You get 1 blast finisher which you can either use on a healing field to heal, or on a fire field for might, but you have to pick one, you can't do both." Where say, a ranger would prepare to either be dps or a healer in advance, the ele would pick during the fight. But because they cannot do both at the same time, they'd still be balanced. The way attunements work kinda reflects that already: you can heal with water, but not dps, and if you switch to fire, you cannot heal for a while. It may be harder to design, balance and play, but it makes the ele stand apart from the other professions. Which, imho is a good thing.

I agree overall with these thoughts. Rather than double down on the perceived issues by making weapons conform to roles, tweak traits and skills to encourage use of other attunements even when they might be suboptimal.

For example, bonuses for camping a specific attunement can be changed to a temporary buff that occurs on attuning to that respective element. Another example, they could create a trait that grants a stacking damage modifier on the elementalist when they heal allies.

On paper, the fluidity and interplay between attunements in staff are absolutely great. I also think this kind of gameplay should be encouraged. Heavy access to fields is very thematic to the Elementalist and creates a dynamic, off-the-cuff playstyle.

However, for staff specifically, I would argue that the weapon suffers from a lack of (1) single target pressure and (2) mechanic-based defensive utility. Staff is very easy to counterplay, and although it is not built for dueling, it needs a touch more work in the identified areas to see any real competitive use.

(1) The staff is built for ranged siege and not ranged sniping, but PvP gameplay is too dynamic to sufficiently leverage such a heavy focus on AoE that requires players to sit still for an extended period of time. It only needs enough to be more of a dynamic threat, not a full role shift.

(2) Staff offers a lot of control, snaring, and general AoE. It can use these to support allies and defend itself, but the threshold of counterplay is low. Lack of single target pressure makes it difficult to apply defensive counterpressure to create breathing room. Ultimately, this is what the staff needs: a self targeted mechanic to create breathing room and allow for respositioning.

Some examples: (A) Pulsing cripple on Eruption would create a low cooldown snare to help create space while kiting. (B) Barrier on the Magnetic Aura skill (not locked behind a trait) would create a temporary sponge of hitpoints to buy a bit of time. © Changing Flame Burst into a targeted AoE that also leaves a 3 sec smoke field behind would allow dynamic access to a short burst of stealth; that would be difficult to leverage for a heavy AoE weapon, increase the utility support of the weapon, and help the elementalist reposition.

[ThiBash.5634]

Those changes sound good enough, although keep in mind that adding effects to Magnetic Aura would also affect all other skills that cause a magnetic aura (like Tempest overload), which could make it too strong.

On a side note, what exactly do you mean with threshold of counterplay? I think I understand what you're trying to say, but since English isn't my native language, I want to make sure.

[Allarius.5670]

@ThiBash.5634 said:Those changes sound good enough, although keep in mind that adding effects to Magnetic Aura would also affect all other skills that cause a magnetic aura (like Tempest overload), which could make it too strong.

On a side note, what exactly do you mean with threshold of counterplay? I think I understand what you're trying to say, but since English isn't my native language, I want to make sure.

I have no idea if those changes would be necessarily good, but I thought they might give an example of what I was trying to get at. For Magnetic Aura, I meant for the skill to have a secondary effect rather than link it to the aura itself or a trait, similar to how warhorn has a secondary effect, to avoid the issue you identify.

I apologize for the confusion and being unnecessarily verbose. I just meant that counterplaying staff is pretty easy so having more effects that target the Elementalist (like Burning Retreat) would help to make it a more competitive option.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

Actually nevermind .... Just rework any elementalist weapon ... I'm begging for daggers !