46-59K dps. Brace yourselves for the inevitable nerf sledgehammer.

[Arcaedus.7290]

How do you think they're going to nerf this though? My guess is that they'll change the f1 bonus for the Legendary Lore trait to provide might rather than burning and/or nerf burn durations on ToJ skills. I really can't see them nerfing the base burning application of the f1 skills because they don't actually apply all that much burning by themselves. It's mostly synergy with Legendary Lore and Ashes of the Just buff.

[Noah.4756]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:How do you think they're going to nerf this though? My guess is that they'll change the f1 bonus for the Legendary Lore trait to provide might rather than burning and/or nerf burn durations on ToJ skills. I really can't see them nerfing the base burning application of the f1 skills because they don't actually apply all that much burning by themselves. It's mostly synergy with Legendary Lore and Ashes of the Just buff.

Legendary Lore is not the problem afaik. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Ashes of the Just registers as the Firebrand damage when it should be applied to the DPS of whoever else get's it. It's like as if the burn application from Sun Spirit would suddenly count as Druid's damage. I'm estimating Ashes of the Just adds about 20k to our DPS which translates to about 4k per person which does not feel that crazy compared to how much a Druid, Warrior or Chrono can buff the party.

[Garimeth.8725]

@Noah.4756 said:

@Arcaedus.7290 said:How do you think they're going to nerf this though? My guess is that they'll change the f1 bonus for the Legendary Lore trait to provide might rather than burning and/or nerf burn durations on ToJ skills. I really can't see them nerfing the base burning application of the f1 skills because they don't actually apply all that much burning by themselves. It's mostly synergy with Legendary Lore and Ashes of the Just buff.

Legendary Lore is not the problem afaik. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Ashes of the Just registers as the Firebrand damage when it should be applied to the DPS of whoever else get's it. It's like as if the burn application from Sun Spirit would suddenly count as Druid's damage. I'm estimating Ashes of the Just adds about 20k to our DPS which translates to about 4k per person which does not feel that crazy compared to how much a Druid, Warrior or Chrono can buff the party.

This. Everybody is saying that it's like venom, but I do not believe this is the case. Every time I have given out the quickfire buff it seems to me like the damage that goes out is not nearly as good as my burning, but I could be wrong. And also yes it shows on your screen like it's you doing the damage.

My thing is this: everybody is acting like this is insane, but how much dps is GOTL worth?

[cat.8975]

While Firebrand is likely overpowered, these numbers are definitely inflated due to the various conversion bugs happening atm.

I'd wait until those get fixed before we bother looking at proper rotations and benchmarking.

[Alchimist.4738]

Is anyone surprised, you just had to see the amount of burning applied in PvP during the beta to see how broken it was.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:How do you think they're going to nerf this though? My guess is that they'll change the f1 bonus for the Legendary Lore trait to provide might rather than burning and/or nerf burn durations on ToJ skills. I really can't see them nerfing the base burning application of the f1 skills because they don't actually apply all that much burning by themselves. It's mostly synergy with Legendary Lore and Ashes of the Just buff.

They should nerf Legendary Lore, give might instead of an additional burning, because its mostly there that the issue lays, if they nerf Ashes of the Just it’ll also nerf the support Firebrand, and from what I have seen support Firebrand is not overpowered.

[Lalainnia.3598]

Fixed a bug in which stat conversion traits were converting temporary stat increases from buffs, traits, and boons.

[Zenith.7301]

@Kidel.2057 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:The funny thing is this firebrand rotation is infinitely easier than the weaver one, and weaver provides zero utility to the group whatsoever.

they both need a serious 50% damage reduction across all the top skills. Like they did with Ice Bow 4.There was a 75k burn tic, did you see it? Most classes take 3 seconds to do that damage, and that was only from the burning.

Everyone knows burning is an OP condition.

The top condi classes are engi, ele, rev. Bottom condi professions are necro and mesmer. Guess which professions don't have access to burning? Yup, the bottom ones.

[Ragnarox.9601]

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Kidel.2057 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:The funny thing is this firebrand rotation is infinitely easier than the weaver one, and weaver provides zero utility to the group whatsoever.

they both need a serious 50% damage reduction across all the top skills. Like they did with Ice Bow 4.There was a 75k burn tic, did you see it? Most classes take 3 seconds to do that damage, and that was only from the burning.

Everyone knows burning is an OP condition.

The top condi classes are engi, ele, rev. Bottom condi professions are necro and mesmer. Guess which professions don't have access to burning? Yup, the bottom ones.

Thats why condi scourge is best class in wvw now and succeded last OP class in wvw which was condi reaper. Seems legit.

[Alchimist.4738]

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Kidel.2057 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:The funny thing is this firebrand rotation is infinitely easier than the weaver one, and weaver provides zero utility to the group whatsoever.

they both need a serious 50% damage reduction across all the top skills. Like they did with Ice Bow 4.There was a 75k burn tic, did you see it? Most classes take 3 seconds to do that damage, and that was only from the burning.

Everyone knows burning is an OP condition.

The top condi classes are engi, ele, rev. Bottom condi professions are necro and mesmer. Guess which professions don't have access to burning? Yup, the bottom ones.

Necro has Dhuumfire, which is enough to apply decent burning, and Rev main condi isn't burning but torment, besides condi Daredevil doesn't have access to burning and has a higher dps than condi Engineer, according to qT benchmarks., bottom line poison and bleeding are as strong as burning.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@Garimeth.8725 said:

@Noah.4756 said:

@Arcaedus.7290 said:How do you think they're going to nerf this though? My guess is that they'll change the f1 bonus for the Legendary Lore trait to provide might rather than burning and/or nerf burn durations on ToJ skills. I really can't see them nerfing the base burning application of the f1 skills because they don't actually apply all that much burning by themselves. It's mostly synergy with Legendary Lore and Ashes of the Just buff.

Legendary Lore is not the problem afaik. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Ashes of the Just registers as the Firebrand damage when it should be applied to the DPS of whoever else get's it. It's like as if the burn application from Sun Spirit would suddenly count as Druid's damage. I'm estimating Ashes of the Just adds about 20k to our DPS which translates to about 4k per person which does not feel that crazy compared to how much a Druid, Warrior or Chrono can buff the party.

This. Everybody is saying that it's like venom, but I do not believe this is the case. Every time I have given out the quickfire buff it seems to me like the damage that goes out is not nearly as good as my burning, but I could be wrong. And also yes it shows on your screen like it's you doing the damage.

My thing is this: everybody is acting like this is insane, but how much dps is GOTL worth?

It is a venom, and was confirmed by the very person that did this benchmark. The combat log shows the damage as your personal damage.

Support specs do more damage than dps specs, that's why they are chosen over dps specs in the first place. If you count the total dps contribution of cPS for example, it's easily above 50k. But all group dps buffs like 25 might, EA, banners, GotL, quickness, alacrity, etc don't stack, so as long as they are provided, the rest of the spots are filled by classes with high personal dps.

But if you pick 2 firebrands, they can both max out at 47k. All that damage is personal dps and stacks.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Burn guards, core burn guards are already outputting ridicilous damage in spvp. I'm a lucky dog cause i main necro, but many other classes get roasted in seconds...

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I can confirm that the problem is Ashes of the Just. Running a solo build with no teammates, I was only able to hit about 28k DPS with the Firebrand.

[RabbitUp.8294]

The person that made the benchmark said in the comments that scepter might actually outdps axe. It will be nice if we actually have another viable weapon.

[Sorin Noroku.5342]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:The person that made the benchmark said in the comments that scepter might actually outdps axe. It will be nice if we actually have another viable weapon.

Tested myself, got about 3k more dps using a scepter, purely because the symbol was easier to keep up the full time.

[nuaa.4962]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I can confirm that the problem is Ashes of the Just. Running a solo build with no teammates, I was only able to hit about 28k DPS with the Firebrand.

I would say yes and no, at same time to that. Though i am suprised, because i was expecting the opposite situation, mostly because i was thinking it numbers would not show up as damage for firebrands. Hell i been saying a few times it was important that AotJ worked like venoms.

Thing that happening here is a group buff, ends up showing only on 1 person, which makes dps numbers go up big time. But at same time also gives wrong view of the numbers, without a group AotJ isn´t that strong.

Here is few example to try give idea what i meanSomeone being able to do 25might stack solo on 5 people, thats 3750power and condi. They would be seen as an insane damage boost, if all that damage from those buff was added to might stacker.Druid with grace of the land, i think thats up to 10% damage for 10 people, now think if 10% of all damage done while this was up, would be put on druid dps. When grace is active, the druid is adding same amount damage as 1 full dps spec(if everybody was equal dps). Now add in frost spirit, sun spirit, Glyph of Empowerment and stuff i dunno about.

Now answer me this. Is sun spirit and AotJ not the same thing, with only difference being sun spirit use ranger/druids stats and AotJ uses firebrand stats like venom(And shows on in our damage log/dps numbers). Both are 2 burns at 3 sec, with spirit being 8sec cooldown with 75% proc chance and quickfire being 10 sec cooldown.

Now i am not saying our dps is balanced and there is most likely changes comming. But i am saying, people should look at whole picture and whats actually happening. AotJ a group buff and not personal dps.

[Vagrant.8613]

Numbers are big in WvW but I'm not having much luck with it compared to my DH burn build. DH F1-3 skills are too good to give up.

[nvmvoidrays.2158]

yeah, the numbers of Burn Guardian's actual DPS is lower because Ashes of the Just. i'm going to assume it applies to 5 people. since he had Legendary Lore, that's 2 stacks of burning per hit and it lasts 3 hits. 6 stacks of burning for 5 people. 30 stacks more or less instantly. plus, Chapter 2 is 4 stacks and every other ability adds 2 stacks of burning... it gets ridiculous.

if i had to guess, Firebrand's actual DPS is somewhere between 30-40k.

[Murdock.6547]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/204/425/dee.jpgmfw firebrand

[RabbitUp.8294]

@nuaa.4962 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I can confirm that the problem is Ashes of the Just. Running a solo build with no teammates, I was only able to hit about 28k DPS with the Firebrand.

I would say yes and no, at same time to that. Though i am suprised, because i was expecting the opposite situation, mostly because i was thinking it numbers would not show up as damage for firebrands. kitten i been saying a few times it was important that AotJ worked like venoms.

Thing that happening here is a group buff, ends up showing only on 1 person, which makes dps numbers go up big time. But at same time also gives wrong view of the numbers, without a group AotJ isn´t that strong.

Here is few example to try give idea what i meanSomeone being able to do 25might stack solo on 5 people, thats 3750power and condi. They would be seen as an insane damage boost, if all that damage from those buff was added to might stacker.Druid with grace of the land, i think thats up to 10% damage for 10 people, now think if 10% of all damage done while this was up, would be put on druid dps. When grace is active, the druid is adding same amount damage as 1 full dps spec(if everybody was equal dps). Now add in frost spirit, sun spirit, Glyph of Empowerment and stuff i dunno about.

Now answer me this. Is sun spirit and AotJ not the same thing, with only difference being sun spirit use ranger/druids stats and AotJ uses firebrand stats like venom(And shows on in our damage log/dps numbers). Both are 2 burns at 3 sec, with spirit being 8sec cooldown with 75% proc chance and quickfire being 10 sec cooldown.

Now i am not saying our dps is balanced and there is most likely changes comming. But i am saying, people should look at whole picture and whats actually happening. AotJ a group buff and not personal dps.

Not, it's not the same. Ashes of the Just is not a group buff, it's a venom. You don't consider condi thief or condi tempest a support class, do you? An attack that scales with party size is not the same as a group buff. It's just a way to have a class do more damage in groups than in solo.

The difference between Ashes and something like GotL is stacking. Support classes are allowed to have greatest overal dps (including their contribution to group dps), because they don't stack. GotL can only go up to 5 stacks, so if you reach that, any more druids you add to your group are dead weight.

Ashes of the Just stacks. Unless they literally use it as the exact same time, every Firebrand in the team you bring will have the same potential dps.

[nuaa.4962]

First of all, when has definition of buff start to be this narrow? A group buff is a buff that needs more people to affect all. Had this scaled of guardian stats but showed on other people dps instead. there would been less of a problem and overall dps output would been same in groups...It goes into Buff part of UI, is a passive that trigger when certain goals are reach(this case hitting target is goal). That is what a buff is. Same time, you need more people to max it out, by simpel logic that make it a group buff. Scaling has never been the way of defining what type effect it is, that only defines how powerfull it is.

Hell yes i would consider venom a group buff, because that what it is.

Again people big problem here is fact is shows up in firebrand dps, because people only see the big number and nothing else. Only thing happens right now, is firebrand is best "we got all buff covered, now we need a super dps for last free slots". You sill need the might stacker, GoTL, fury, alacrati and other stuff like that.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@nuaa.4962 said:Again people big problem here is fact is shows up in firebrand dps, because people only see the big number and nothing else. Only thing happens right now, is firebrand is best "we got all buff covered, now we need a super dps for last free slots". You sill need the might stacker, GoTL, fury, alacrati and other stuff like that.

Well, yeah, that's the whole concept of the dps slot in the current meta. After you get your 3 supports (cPS, chrono, druid), you have 2 slots for dps. Firebrand currently is by far the best dps in the game.

And Ashes is part of firebrand's damage. The big number is real.

[Sorin Noroku.5342]

If a nerf was to come to firebrand, I see it in the form of nerf to AotJ. Changing the active stacks from 3 to 2, and the trait stacks from 2 to 1, would nerf the damage enough to bring it into line with other dps classes, without outright killing it.

[Garimeth.8725]

@Sorin Noroku.5342 said:If a nerf was to come to firebrand, I see it in the form of nerf to AotJ. Changing the active stacks from 3 to 2, and the trait stacks from 2 to 1, would nerf the damage enough to bring it into line with other dps classes, without outright killing it.

See I would just make it so the cooldown was to the target, not the firebrand's application. So any given player can only benefit from AotJ once during the cooldown period. This accomplishes two things. First, it eliminates any problem from stacking firebrands in a PVE setting. Second, it let's the firebrand in open world pve or wvw give out alot more quickfire if they want to blow their CDs, because different people would be benefitting from it each time.

[Lotheap Mitty.6103]

Even when removing AoJ burns, FB can still dish out 40 stacks of burn in 5 seconds with just self-puffed might+quickness. And tome of justice has no CD when trash-clearing.If you trait in to that thing allowing you to keep tome passive when on cooldown, you can still keep up 20 stacks of burn with axe + sword or scepter and torch weapon swaps. FB is just too strong in everyway.

[Nick.6972]

@Lotheap Mitty.6103 said:FB is just too strong in everyway.

Not in its intended support way though.I for once would gladly give up some damage to get on par with Druid/Tempest in terms of healing.