Joko and the Scarab Plague's Aftermath (Spoilers Ahead)

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Tyson.5160 said:We should have a better idea with the next couple of episodes of LW.Based on whats been leaked of episode 3, the Joko plot seems to likely be resolving soon.

@Tyson.5160 said:I kinda want them to go to Cantha, so it forces Anet’s hand to going to new areas, such as that continent to the west of Tyria that showed a trade route from LA. Or the further unexplored lands to the east.Going to Cantha wouldn't force them to go to new areas. It could very easily turn out-Expansion 4: Cantha/Bubbles-Expansion 5: Jormag/Charr homelands/Far Shiverpeaks/Woodland Cascades.-Expansion 6: Primordus/Deldrimor Front/Tyrian underground.The only "new" places they would have to go is explore more deep into the underground were some old Asuran city was or something.

[Tyson.5160]

With Jormag and Primordus asleep they could go somewhere else entirely after Cantha, since Anet controls when they wake up and force the players back to the mainland. We should have better idea this time next year.

Edit: That’s presuming that the DSD and old crystal face has been dealt with.

Like the devs have said before they don’t want to fall into the trap of dragon attacks, we retaliate and kill it.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Tyson.5160" said:With Jormag and Primordus asleep they could go somewhere else entirely after Cantha, since Anet controls when they wake up and force the players back to the mainland. We should have better idea this time next year.Them being asleep is a stall tactic for after Kralkatorik, and likely Bubbles, are gone, since they are so closely tied to each other, and are each other's weaknesses, we would have to take them out fairly close together time wise. I honestly don't understand what you would except them to do story wise if Kralk and Bubbles are dead, and Jormag and Primordus are still asleep, for a whole expansion/LW season.

I can't really see the player going "Hey guys, now that 4 of the dragons are dead, lets go off to this unexplored nowhere-ville instead of using the advantage of Jormag and Primordus being asleep to assault their forces, learn more about their weaknesses, and develop a way to beat them, and possibly even beat them before they reawaken!"

Hell, Jormag is close enough that Braham and his unnamed C-team nobodies got within visual distance of it in a relatively short amount of time. He's right there.

[Tyson.5160]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:With Jormag and Primordus asleep they could go somewhere else entirely after Cantha, since Anet controls when they wake up and force the players back to the mainland. We should have better idea this time next year.Them being asleep is a stall tactic for after Kralkatorik, and likely Bubbles, are gone, since they are so closely tied to each other, and are each other's weaknesses, we would have to take them out fairly close together time wise. I honestly don't understand what you would except them to do story wise if Kralk and Bubbles are dead, and Jormag and Primordus are still asleep, for a whole expansion/LW season.

I can't really see the player going "Hey guys, now that 4 of the dragons are dead, lets go off to this unexplored nowhere-ville instead of using the advantage of Jormag and Primordus being asleep to assault their forces, learn more about their weaknesses, and develop a way to beat them, and possibly even beat them before they reawaken!"

Hell, Jormag is close enough that Braham and his unnamed C-team nobodies got within visual distance of it in a relatively short amount of time. He's right there.

Something or someone else would have to cause a distraction period between the dragon onslaught, similar to the white mantle and Joko’s awakened. We could have new threats or new problems to deal with. I still think Jormag and Primordus are the two dragon’s we are going to defeat in the same expansion, so it’s unique enough, so it doesn’t fit the Zhaitan mold.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Tyson.5160" said:Something or someone else would have to cause a distraction period between the dragon onslaught, similar to the white mantle and Joko’s awakened. We could have new threats or new problems to deal with. I still think Jormag and Primordus are the two dragon’s we are going to defeat in the same expansion, so it’s unique enough, so it doesn’t fit the Zhaitan mold.While I am all for non-dragon threats to pepper in between expansions, the idea that something on the literal other side of the planet, that no one has ever heard about before, would be it, is kinda silly.

The Charr are, surprisingly enough, the biggest proof against advanced sapient life in the rest of Tyira. If you look at the maps of Tyria Anet has given us, slap down where the arctic and antarctic circles would be, and then try to map out the Charr's empire, it would cover basically everything up to the arctic circle(which is just at where the Shiverpeak mountains go eastward and wrap about the Charr Homelands in the EoTN map), all the way to the other side of the big inland sea. Then if you consider the fact the Charr make no mention of coming across anything other then tribal species like the Grawl, and Ogres, and their animosity toward humanity stemming from humanity putting up the biggest fight the Charr ever had to deal with, we can pretty safely gather that there is no advanced civilization anywhere close to the Charr's eastern borders, greatly limiting where one could be to around the "Olympus" area on the map. This would also be the case for the Dzalana area north of Elona, and East of the Crystal desert, whose inhabitants are the tribal Hyleck and Harpies.

There is also consideration on how that would screw with the in-game map, since Anet doesn't seem to be going for individual maps this time around, but rather one huge map. Putting something that far away would not only strain credibility on us getting there in the first place, but also make the map massively unwieldy.

What other enemies we get will likely be more focus on the racial enemies like the Inquest, Flame Legion, Nightmare Court(dear god no), and Sons of Svanir, rather then mysterious Deus Ex Machina from the east!

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" that map's "charr empire" is no doubt way too big. It would suggest that the Ash and Blood Legions have territory five times greater than the Iron Legion. Iron only has Ascalon. Blood already has lands north and east of Ascalon. Even if we assume Iron has territory the size of Ascalon somewhere disconnected from Ascalon, and Ash has the same amount Iron has, that would still place Blood as greater than both Iron and Ash combined with those markings. Neither legion would stand for it.

The charr territories likely don't even reach that giant in-land sea.

I also think you make the arctic and antarctic a bit too large. Especially the latter, given how little snow there was in southern Cantha in Factions' map. Even Eye of the North's spread of snow on the world map was slightly higher than where you make your marker, and the actual arctic circle would still be a ways off from that.

Then if you consider the fact the Charr make no mention of coming across anything other then tribal species like the Grawl, and Ogres

You know what your problem is Sajuuk? This sentence here. You're using this argument, in different forms, many times over. The argument of "if the writers haven't made mention of anything, then nothing in that area of the lore exists".

And this argument is, by far, the singular, dumbest, possible logic to ever use when dealing about future potential fictional world building.

And not only that, but it is an insult to the creativity of the writers and developers. Not to mention, it's been disproven in literally every campaign of GW1, every expansion of both games, and even over half of the LW episodes.

And no, it would not be a "deus ex machina" to create a new threat in a land we know literally nothing about and have messengers contact the PC to bring them over to that area. That is not what a dues ex machina is, for starters, and that is pretty much how almost every single sequel in the history of fictional writing starts. ESPECIALLY for video game expansions (and often, sequels).

Hell, it's how most plots with external conflicts against other living beings occur in the first place. Some unknown-to-locals threat shows up and the MC learns of this and has to (either by choice or by force) deal with the threat.

There is also consideration on how that would screw with the in-game map, since Anet doesn't seem to be going for individual maps this time around, but rather one huge map. Putting something that far away would not only strain credibility on us getting there in the first place, but also make the map massively unwieldy.

The funny thing is that this statement actually supports going east of Ascalon and Elona. Because it's already part of the world map ArenaNet has made.

If we consider the world map, the chances of Cantha becoming added for it is actually exponentially unlikely.

Because, unlike the "charr empire", Cantha actually is on the other side of the planet from Tyria (the southern side, to be specific).

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" that map's "charr empire" is no doubt way too big. It would suggest that the Ash and Blood Legions have territory five times greater than the Iron Legion. Iron only has Ascalon. Blood already has lands north and east of Ascalon. Even if we assume Iron has territory the size of Ascalon somewhere disconnected from Ascalon, and Ash has the same amount Iron has, that would still place Blood as greater than both Iron and Ash combined with those markings. Neither legion would stand for it.

The charr territories likely don't even reach that giant in-land sea.

I also think you make the arctic and antarctic a bit too large. Especially the latter, given how little snow there was in southern Cantha in Factions' map. Even Eye of the North's spread of snow on the world map was slightly higher than where you make your marker, and the actual arctic circle would still be a ways off from that.

Then if you consider the fact the Charr make no mention of coming across anything other then tribal species like the Grawl, and Ogres

You know what your problem is Sajuuk? This sentence here. You're using this argument, in different forms, many times over. The argument of "if the writers haven't made mention of anything, then nothing in that area of the lore exists".

And this argument is, by far, the singular, dumbest, possible logic to ever use when dealing about future potential fictional world building.

And not only that, but it is an insult to the creativity of the writers and developers. Not to mention, it's been disproven in literally every campaign of GW1, every expansion of both games, and even over half of the LW episodes.

And no, it would not be a "deus ex machina" to create a new threat in a land we know literally nothing about and have messengers contact the PC to bring them over to that area. That is not what a dues ex machina is, for starters, and that is pretty much how almost

every single sequel in the history of fictional writing starts

.

ESPECIALLY

for video game expansions (and often, sequels).

Hell, it's how most plots with external conflicts against other living beings occur in the first place. Some unknown-to-locals threat shows up and the MC learns of this and has to (either by choice or by force) deal with the threat.

There is also consideration on how that would screw with the in-game map, since Anet doesn't seem to be going for individual maps this time around, but rather one huge map. Putting something that far away would not only strain credibility on us getting there in the first place, but also make the map massively unwieldy.

The funny thing is that this statement actually

supports

going east of Ascalon and Elona. Because

it's already part of the world map ArenaNet has made

.

If we consider the world map, the chances of Cantha becoming added for it is actually exponentially unlikely.

Because, unlike the "charr empire", Cantha actually

is

on the other side of the planet from Tyria (the southern side, to be specific).

If you recall Konig, we got blasted by a bunch of unknown threats and new races in Eye of the North, which doesn’t sit well with Sajuuks theories. That was the writers, you know, doing what writers do and write stories.

[Tyson.5160]

We also the mystery of Doern Velazquez, whose naming is not similar to really anything that we have seen in GW, which more Spanish in influence. Doern could be from that trade route which leads to this western continent.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doern_Velazquez

[Kossage.9072]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Anet went to the Crystal Desert not because it's low hanging fruit (at least not solely), but because it was logical. Not for Kralkatorrik or Balthazar or Joko. But for Glint, the Exalted, and Vlast. The plot has been delving into "Glint's Legacy" since Season 2, and it became all the more apparently needed with them going the direction of "killing dragons is bad, mkay" (which was similarly established in Season 2). The plot's direction needed to go into more details about Glint's plans, and this meant finding Vlast. And where would be most likely to find records of the Forgotten, Glint, and Vlast? The crystal desert.

suggested that the decision to move to the Crystal Desert wasn't necessarily that clear cut as the narrative team considered many options for the storyline post-HoT before settling for the Balthy vs. Kralky plot with these questions in mind: "How can we make sure our narrative doesn't become repetitive and cliché, why have the gods and Elder Dragons never interacted, and how can we surprise players by answering some questions while we're at it?" Part of it was the low hanging fruit aspect of it although it also presented difficulties for them as they knew that, unlike Heart of Maguuma, players would be more familiar with the desert region due to all its landmarks etc.

Here's the transcription of a relevant Scott McGough's reply in that interview (the whole interview is worth watching for interesting dev insight, though):

AuroraPeachy: How far in advance did you know that there was going to be this swap of story [moving from killing Elder Dragons to saving them]?

Scott: I would say we settled on it as we wrapped up Heart of Thorns. When Heart of Thorns was done and we had killed Mordremoth, we sort of sat down and started talking as a team: "Okay, what's next?" To be frank, we were worried about falling into a pattern: find an Elder Dragon, kill an Elder Dragon, and then it becomes a pattern, then it becomes formula, and then it becomes a cliché. We didn't want to do that so we started looking around for how can we twist things so that's not just the same one-to-one "Let's go kill an Elder Dragon." We considered maybe two Elder Dragons at once, and then eventually the team hit on the idea of "Well, the gods, what happened to the gods is one of the upstanding questions of Guild Wars 1 and between Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2. There are these titanically powerful beings in the gods, there are these titanically powerful beings in the Elder Dragons, and they've never interacted. What happened? Why is that?" Because there were gods, then there were dragons, and then there were only dragons. So we figured bringing gods back into the mix would be a way, a doorway, to surprise players while also giving them one of the answers they were looking for.

If they had settled for the "two Elder Dragons at once" plot (likely would've been about the Jormag vs. Primordus plot that was teased in Season 3), I wonder how Glint's legacy would've tied into that plot and what Aurene would've been doing during that plot if we had no memory crystals, Exalted and Forgotten stuff as exposition...

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" that map's "charr empire" is no doubt way too big. It would suggest that the Ash and Blood Legions have territory five times greater than the Iron Legion.No it wouldn't. That is literally Ascalon, plus Ascalon twice again to represent the fact that both of the other Legions likely have just as much land.

The charr territories likely don't even reach that giant in-land sea.Konig, I think you need to take a look at the map again, because the giant inland sea is literally right off the current in-game map.

I also think you make the arctic and antarctic a bit too large. Especially the latter, given how little snow there was in southern Cantha in Factions' mapKonig, do you understand how maps work? Planets are not flat, and thus, when you take a spherical object and make it flat, you get massive distortion the closer you reach the top and bottom.

The arctic and antarctic circles begin around 66 degrees north and south of the equator, which is just over 2/3s of the way from the equator to the poles, which is literally exactly where the lines are on that map.

If you look at this video where someone took the map and put it on a sphere, you can see this effect. Especially at 11 seconds in, when you see the Isle of Janthir, it makes it very clear just how small everything north of it is.

You know what your problem is Sajuuk? This sentence here. You're using this argument, in different forms, many times over. The argument of "if the writers haven't made mention of anything, then nothing in that area of the lore exists".That is incorrect, and I would appreciate you not attempting to poorly straw man what I say. Its a terribly dishonest form of debate, and speaks poorly of your character. I'm quite sure all those lands are filled with tons of pissant tribes of Grawl, Hylek, Tengu, Centaurs, Ogres, etc. etc. that have never seen or heard of humans, or know of the Charr, living away in their primitive, tribalistic lifestyles, totally unaware of the suffering the Tyrians are going through to save them all from doom.

[Kossage.9072]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Lametoile.7394" said:I'm not for returning to Cantha right now. It would be too rushy. And we have still plenty of issues and lore to adress in Tyria. It's time for Charrs and Norns to go back on the scene.Not really-Zhaitan and Mordremoth are dead-Primordus and Jormag are asleep-Kralkatorik and Bubbles are elsewhere-The White Mantle is gone-The Nightmare Court is a shadow of what it once was-The Inquest have just become an ineffective nuisance-The Flame Legion has basically vanished since their failed alliance with the Dredge-The centaurs have been pushed back to the border of Kryta and the Woodland CascadesThe whole reason why PoF and LWS4 work narratively is because there really isn't anything going on in Tyria at the moment. Any Charr or Norn focus would only really come in a Jormag based expansion/LW, and that wont be for awhile given how the narrative is going.

Once Joko and Kralk a taken care of, Bubbles is the only active dragon left, and since its unlikely we will get a whole expansion based around water, Cantha is the prime target for the next big focus.

To be fair, many of those plots can still be continued if the writers decide to do so, just like they decided to bring the gods back when there wasn't necessarily any need to per se after they had already cut ties with Tyria. To list some examples:

The Nightmare Court still has potential for various plots about it and related narratives:

1) the power struggles between its competing factions (Duchess Chrysanthea vs. other nobles) and what path the court will take under new leadership,

2) them possibly discovering Malyck's Tree and the ramifications of that (we know Matthew Medina has been working on a story pitch of sorts for the Malyck plot and how it's extensive enough to basically be part of a Living World episode at the very least should they ever feel it fits into whatever narrative they're spinning),

3) exploring the origins of Dream and Nightmare and if falling into Nightmare is truly an irreversible process,

4) exploring the fate of Unchained Mordrem and a potential Mordrem Guard redemption arc (will they be welcomed back to sylvari society, could they seek refuge in the Nightmare Court or form a new faction etc.), and

5) finally learning the fate of the two still unknown, missing Firstborn (whose potential appearances were teased in the Blighted Pale Tree fight in "Hearts and Minds", and whether either of them had ties to Soundless as one dev interview suggested). We could even have a "road trip" of sorts where we see all of the surviving Firstborn interacting with one another on a journey and playing a part as sylvari try to find their place in a world without Mordremoth.That's plenty of material of keeping Nightmare Court and sylvari relevant once/if the devs feel like bringing them back into the story.

Last we heard of the Flame Legion, the Molten Alliance was basically a splinter faction, and the rest of the legion is likely still divided in power struggles like Nightmare Court is (was?). They could easily make a return in a "Cogs of War" centric charr arc as one of (potentially many) enemy factions. Imagine, for instance, the Flame Legion's splinter groups dividing into three cohorts each led by a tribune:

1) one group could specialize in continuing reverence of the shaman caste with emphasis on magic and maybe exploring the mystical side of charr shamanism like the Eternal Flame or returning to worshiping Destroyers etc.),

2) another group could specialize on Ash Legion like counterintelligence, espionage and assasination like the Fireshadows of old while trying to infiltrate the other legions or other Tyrian organizations for nefarious purposes (kind of like the White Mantle spy plot from S3 except given more screen time),

3) a third group could focus on a cult of personality around Baelfire with the fanatical Godforged and attempt to resurrect him yet again or at least revere him as a god who will one day return to lead them to victory,4) a fourth group could actually become more progressive and actually decide to recruit females into its ranks (gasp!), either as a genuinely repenant force or an ostensibly "atoning" group that could turn out to be deceivers who try to get in our good graces to enact some sinister scheme (just imagine all the juicy dialogue of female charr players trying to convince these female Flame Legion to abandon the cause, only to realize these females truly believe in their leader's vision and think they're doing the right thing etc.)

As for the rest of charr plot, there's plenty of potential in storylines centering on the title of Khan-Ur, the schemes of the Ash and Blood Legion in their respective homelands, and Blood Imperator Bangar Ruinbringer's ambitions. ANet is apparently setting up something for later given Rox's intriguing spy subplot with Monti Scythescrape in S2, Rytlock's arrest and demotion in S3 (I don't think Smodur has the authority to demote a Blood officer without Bangar's permission and Smodur seemed to be cool with Rytlock in S2, so maybe Rytlock's "tribunal" was Bangar's idea and Smodur's claws were tied in the matter), and Rytlock's sudden release with his rank restored and what happened in his "tribunal" is classified info even charr players aren't privy to as Rytlock explained in Amnoon in "Sparking the Flame".

As for Central Tyrian centaurs, they could easily become a subject of a Living World episode if not more if we expand into the Woodland Cascades where they've supposedly been staging their attacks from. Perhaps we could finally witness Queen Jennah attempting a ceasefire if not a peace treaty with them and grant the centaurs land now that Caudecus's schemes to fuel the centaur war have been brought to light. With Ulgoth death and a Modniir War Council leading them in the interim with an iron fist, the centaur alliance may be cracking (as potentially suggested by only Harathi coming to Caudecus's aid in Lake Doric). We could traverse to the centaur homelands and meet their civilians and try to support their rebels to overthrow the oppressive Modniir etc. regime that has been pretty much intimidating the other tribes to work for them so peace could finally become a reality. Then we could have antagonistic but sympathetic humans like Broil Cane who, due to a personal tragedy, simply can't let go of their hatred for centaurs, leading to a dilemma as we have to save innocent centaur civilians from his and other hatemongers' wrath.

What's also pretty intriguing about the whole "peace with centaurs" plot is that not only human but charr and sylvari players could have unique interactions with centaurs. As we learned in sylvari personal story, some centaurs at least view sylvari as spirits of the land, and this could be a chance to view less hostile interactions between the two races (as long as we don't take racists like the Whispers agent Cai along for the ride and focus more on diplomats like Dagonet and Aife). I imagine charr players could also have unique interactions with centaurs regarding ceasefire with humans, and perhaps the two races could relate to one another by comparing their respective troubles with humans while charr let centaurs know how the Ebonhawke Treaty has been affecting the Legions with the good and the bad.

The above are just quick ideas I came up with, and I could think of plenty more to do, but I'm sure ANet could create more nuanced narratives in this setting and keep these storylines relevant with twists and turns where needed. Central Tyria has lots to offer still as long as the devs are willing to take the plunge and explore these storylines that wait to be told. :)

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

To make the map a little more clear, I took the in-game map, overlayed it with the original texture found in the Priory carpet texture.

To say Charr lands wouldn't even reach the giant inland Sea is nonsense, since the sea is literally right on the other side of the Blazeridge Mountains. You can just see the back end poking out from behind the in-game map overlaid with the Priory carpet map(the sea is the highlighted white box area)

[Fenom.9457]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:We should have a better idea with the next couple of episodes of LW.Based on whats been leaked of episode 3, the Joko plot seems to likely be resolving soon.

@Tyson.5160 said:I kinda want them to go to Cantha, so it forces Anet’s hand to going to new areas, such as that continent to the west of Tyria that showed a trade route from LA. Or the further unexplored lands to the east.Going to Cantha wouldn't force them to go to new areas. It could very easily turn out-Expansion 4: Cantha/Bubbles-Expansion 5: Jormag/Charr homelands/Far Shiverpeaks/Woodland Cascades.-Expansion 6: Primordus/Deldrimor Front/Tyrian underground.The only "new" places they would have to go is explore more deep into the underground were some old Asuran city was or something.

What was leaked about episode 3?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Fenom.9457 said:What was leaked about episode 3?We

get a force of Olmakhan, primeval ghosts led by Queens Dahlah and Nahlah, and some Sunspears led by Spearmashal Zarim, to assault Joko's fortress, which, based on other screenshots of the area looks to be Gandara, and the area around it. You know its bad for Joko when even the ghosts are forming an army to fight him

 

[crepuscular.9047]

@zolcor.2601 said:In a last ditch effort, the leaders of the Tyrian nations will be forced to order a mass exodus to Cantha just to escape being infected.

the distance of Istan Isle from Cantha is only about twice or three times the distance from Korna mainland, Joko could reach it easily, pretty sure Awaken dont need to breathe underwater

What may make more sense is run off north into the Far Shiverpeaks and take refuge in the undergound cities built by the unknown race

1. The frozen tundras and mountainous landscape creates a natural barrier against the plague and the invading undeads
2. Primodus and Jormag are asleep, so there is no immediate threat, the populous just need to keep to slap down their lieutenants like we always do
3. Get to visit Kodan and Norn's homelands, or figure out how to make the old asura gates work so we can visit Quora Sum and other 5 abandoned underground asuran cities
4. Visit Kralkatorrik's last resting spot, and Taimi to figure out how to forcibly put Kralkatorrik to sleep
5. Show us more dwarves !!! I hope this is what the new fractal Deepstone is about

   The fight between the dwarves and the destroyers consumed the dwarven army sent to fight the Great Destroyer. Few returned to the surface to tell the tale of their victory—and those who did had been transformed into stone with altered mentality.

   Dwarven society continued on regardless. During this time, the remaining Stone Summit rejoined what remained of Deldrimor and the two communities lived together in peace once more. However, about fifty years after the Rite of the Great Dwarf was first performed, the last of the flesh and blood dwarves felt the call to undergo the Rite themselves. Now, no longer interested in maintaining their solidarity as a race, the last dwarves scattered across Tyria, finding battles to fight in the deep caverns or making new homes in far-flung hills, ever-watching the borders where caverns emerge into the surface world. Those few individuals who can rightfully claim to have met a dwarf in their lifetime are rare, and all speak of the strange, driven passion that consumes these few survivors. It is unclear how many dwarves survive.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Tyson.5160 said:If you recall Konig, we got blasted by a bunch of unknown threats and new races in Eye of the North, which doesn’t sit well with Sajuuks theories. That was the writers, you know, doing what writers do and write stories.

Uh....

What reason did we have to go to Cantha for Factions? What reason did we have to go to Elona for Nightfall? What reason did we have to go to the north for Eye of the North?

Yes, I remember. :tongue:

@"Kossage.9072" said:If they had settled for the "two Elder Dragons at once" plot (likely would've been about the Jormag vs. Primordus plot that was teased in Season 3), I wonder how Glint's legacy would've tied into that plot and what Aurene would've been doing during that plot if we had no memory crystals, Exalted and Forgotten stuff as exposition...

Honestly, they'd probably just move Kesho into some Brotherhood of the Dragon fortification, given that in GW1, it was the Brotherhood looking over Vlast in a snow and crystal area when the destroyers attacked.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:@Sajuuk Khar.1509 that map's "charr empire" is no doubt

way

too big. It would suggest that the Ash and Blood Legions have territory

five times greater than the Iron Legion

.No it wouldn't. That is literally Ascalon, plus Ascalon twice again to represent the fact that both of the other Legions likely have just as much land.You... clearly don't see where Ascalon ends. That's Ascalon plus Ascalon times six even if you exclude all that water.

The charr territories likely don't even reach that giant in-land sea.Konig, I think you need to take a look at the map again, because the giant inland sea is literally right off the current in-game map.

If that were so, we would see it in the data mined map which has the size of Ascalon between it and the Blazeridge Mountains, which themselves are not small (and not included on that_shaman's map).

I also think you make the arctic and antarctic a bit too large. Especially the latter, given how little snow there was in southern Cantha in Factions' mapKonig, do you understand how maps work? Planets are not flat, and thus, when you take a spherical object and make it flat, you get massive distortion the closer you reach the top and bottom.

The arctic and antarctic circles begin around 66 degrees north and south of the equator, which is just over 2/3s of the way from the equator to the poles, which is literally exactly where the lines are on that map.

If you look at this video where someone took the map and put it on a sphere, you can see this effect. Especially at 11 seconds in, when you see the Isle of Janthir, it makes it very clear just how small everything north of it is.-snip video-

In most maps, yes. But this isn't a map, technically. Or rather, it's a map based off of a texture. Textures are not stretched, so the texture is to proportion even if put on a sphere. That_shaman, however, had stretched the texture to make it wider. That video likely did not account for either of these situations.

You know what your problem is Sajuuk? This sentence here. You're using this argument, in different forms, many times over. The argument of "if the writers haven't made mention of anything, then nothing in that area of the lore exists".That is incorrect, and I would appreciate you not attempting to poorly straw man what I say. Its a terribly dishonest form of debate, and speaks poorly of your character. I'm quite sure all those lands are filled with tons of pissant tribes of Grawl, Hylek, Tengu, Centaurs, Ogres, etc. etc. that have never seen or heard of humans, or know of the Charr, living away in their primitive, tribalistic lifestyles, totally unaware of the suffering the Tyrians are going through to save them all from doom.

There was no strawmanning. Your argument was literally "no comment of anything out there in lore, therefore nothing interesting / no reason to go out there exists". You just used more and different words for it, but that is exactly what you've been arguing. And that is a false argument.

And honestly, it wouldn't make sense for there to be tengu or centaurs, to be honest. Even with your statement being drenched in sarcastic passive aggressiveness.

Besides, no one said anything about being primitive. One doesn't need to be a well traveled culture to have be more than primitive (granted trade is a major aspect of expanding, if one doesn't have proper local resources).

However, I will stress this: Players had no knowledge of asura until Eye of the North. Yet not only did dwarves regularly trade with asura, but humans had stories about them from centuries prior, and the same goes for destroyers.

So "no player knowledge = nothing out there" is incorrect. Similarly "no player knowledge = only primitives out there" is similarly incorrect. The asura alone disproves everything you claim.

So do destroyers, norn, karka, and Elder Dragons really.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:To make the map a little more clear, I took the in-game map, overlayed it with the original texture found in the Priory carpet texture.

To say Charr lands wouldn't even reach the giant inland Sea is nonsense, since the sea is literally right on the other side of the Blazeridge Mountains. You can just see the back end poking out from behind the in-game map overlaid with the Priory carpet map(the sea is the highlighted white box area)-snip image-

Take a look at your scaling of the in-game map. Specifically, look at the southern edges. Notice how you basically see Istan and southern Kournatwice, once in the in-game map, and once again in the old map?

Your scaling is off.

Plus, they wouldn't completely remove such a huge inland sea (though they did seem to push it out further and/or reduce its size), and I think that, based on the other bodies of water there, it's clear that the inland sea isn't so close to Ascalon as you think. This is how I would show the comparison:

Now there is some inconsistencies. But not one as major as a massive inland sea the size of a nation suddenly disappearing after suddenly being added where, by all little lore we have, it never should have been.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Putting the spoilers in a different post for sake of not accidentally spoiling those not wanting to be:

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Fenom.9457" said:What was leaked about episode 3?We

get a force of Olmakhan, primeval ghosts led by Queens Dahlah and Nahlah, and some Sunspears led by Spearmashal Zarim, to assault Joko's fortress, which, based on other screenshots of the area looks to be Gandara, and the area around it. You know its bad for Joko when even the ghosts are forming an army to fight him

 

 

Joko has already been fighting ghosts for over a century anyways, and has many specifically designed units to fight ghosts, and has been fighting the remnants of Sunspears too, with major success. The main difference is the Olmakhan and the unified assaults (and of course, Dragon's Watch). And while it does seem likely this is including Gandara, you really are putting way too much importance on it, given it's no Bone Palace and in all honesty, his Kournan seat of power is no doubt the Fortress of Jahai for sake of gloating over Turai.

 

I do not think that Episode 3 will feature the end of Joko.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:If that were so, we would see it in the data mined map which has the size of Ascalon between it and the Blazeridge Mountains, which themselves are not small (and not included on that_shaman's map).No we literally would not for the simple reason that its a map that was never meant to be seen by the player, and is literally placeholder art for the time being.

In most maps, yes. But this isn't a map, technically. Or rather, it's a map based off of a texture. Textures are not stretched, so the texture is to proportionAlso incorrect, because the original texture was a perfect square(as most textures in video games are for optimization purposes), and its impossible to make a perfect square into a sphere. The whole reason That_Shaman stretched it to be rectangular was so that it could actually function as a map of a spherical planet, like how maps of earth are rectangular for the same reason.

Plus, they wouldn't completely remove such a huge inland seaYes they would, its placeholder art that the player can never see in the game legitimately, they have no reason to put it on the map in the first place! Not to mention, they completely removed the massive inland lake that consumed most of Vabbi.

Your scaling is off.Nope, your scaling is off, see below, the thing you identified as the smaller lake near Frostgorge is much too far north compared to whats shown on the map. As you can see below, I overlayed the in-game map over the map from the texture, and while they don't use the exact scaling, if you line up Frostgorge sound, the big lake to the right of it is clearly "Lake Kralkatorik" from the Charr homelands we saw back in Eye of the North, and you can even see how the Inland Sea's outline matches the map pattern seen to the east of Ascalon on the data mined map that I pointed out a few maps back.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Joko has already been fighting ghosts for over a century anyways, and has many specifically designed units to fight ghosts, and has been fighting the remnants of Sunspears too, with major success. The main difference is the Olmakhan and the unified assaults (and of course, Dragon's Watch). And while it does seem likely this is including Gandara, you really are putting way too much importance on it, given it's no Bone Palace and in all honesty, his Kournan seat of power is no doubt the Fortress of Jahai for sake of gloating over Turai.

 

I do not think that Episode 3 will feature the end of Joko.Nor do I, episode 3 is the end of Joko's invasion attempt. Episode 4, when he retreats to Jahai after losing his army at Gandara, will be the end of Joko because of "LE EPIC HISTORICAL REENACTMENT" points it will bring.

Episodes 5, 6, and 7 will likely build on our bringing together of everyone into a single, effective, fighting force, as we work our way though western Kourna to Kralkatorik's mountain perch.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:If that were so, we would see it in the data mined map which has the size of Ascalon between it and the Blazeridge Mountains, which themselves are not small (and not included on that_shaman's map).No we literally would not for the simple reason that its a map that was never meant to be seen by the player, and is literally placeholder art for the time being.That's one hell of a really fucking detailed placeholder.

Anet's known for ages by now that if it gets put into the gw.dat, players will see it thanks to folks like that_shaman. And they put in a hell of a lot more details than needed.

Besides, if you were right, the Blood Citadel would be underwater based on that world map, which was seen in the game itself.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

In most maps, yes. But this isn't a map, technically. Or rather, it's a map based off of a texture. Textures are not stretched, so the texture is to proportionAlso incorrect, because the original texture was a perfect square(as most textures in video games are for optimization purposes), and its impossible to make a perfect square into a sphere. The whole reason That_Shaman stretched it to be rectangular was so that it could actually function as a map of a spherical planet, like how maps of earth are rectangular for the same reason.

From this comment, I'm fairly certain you don't know how textures on 3d objects work...

And from your prior maps, I'm fairly certain you don't know how large arctic/antarctic circles actually are. Unless you're proclaiming that Tyria is about 1/5th the size of Earth or something.

Your scaling is off.Nope, your scaling is off, see below, the thing you identified as the smaller lake near Frostgorge is much too far north compared to whats shown on the map.-snip image-

Uh, that middle line is not not what I identified.

And again, your scaling is off. Though your image is the same size for both, note how in the top one you have no Bay of Janthir or Sea of Sorrows, while the bottom one, you do. Also note how the Far Shiverpeaks sea is smaller on the bottom one.

That_shaman altered the map dimensions, if you overlay you will not get a 1:1 ratio. You can't scale it on a 1:1 ratio and expect a perfect overlay. Trust me, I tried, and tried, and tried. You can't even get that between the GW1 and GW2 maps. Hell, even altering the width or the height alone will never get a perfect line up between the two games' maps.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Joko

has already been fighting ghosts

for

over a century anyways

, and has

many specifically designed units to fight ghosts

, and has been fighting the remnants of Sunspears too, with major success. The main difference is the Olmakhan and the unified assaults (and of course, Dragon's Watch). And while it does seem likely this is including Gandara, you really are putting way too much importance on it, given it's no Bone Palace and in all honesty, his Kournan seat of power is no doubt the Fortress of Jahai for sake of gloating over Turai.

 

I do not think that Episode 3 will feature the end of Joko.Nor do I, episode 3 is the end of Joko's invasion attempt. Episode 4, when he retreats to Jahai after losing his army at Gandara, will be the end of Joko because of "LE EPIC HISTORICAL REENACTMENT" points it will bring.

Episodes 5, 6, and 7 will likely build on our bringing together of everyone into a single, effective, fighting force, as we work our way though western Kourna to Kralkatorik's mountain perch.

And why would there be only 7 episodes, when they got 3 teams? How could Joko's empire crumble so easily because of a simple distant rebellion on the most outskirt part of his empire that got crushed once already, and a failed invasion attempt? How could Joko, an immortal lich himself, be defeated so easily that he could only hope to fail in two battles? How can his Scarab Plague fail when we already see bugs flying at people in the trailer?

Don't answer. I know what you'll respond. The same way you have the last 10 times this discussion came up. You'll point to the deaths of isolated low to mid ranked figures proclaiming such to be major losses to Joko all the while ignoring all the lore that points out that they can be revived as Awakened (and how some already have been), and completely ignore how in a proper empire, there are things called chains of succession where should one figurehead fall, someone would be ready to take their place.

Were I to keep this discussion, you'll just keep reciting the same debunkable points as if gospel. Making debates with you no different than one with a flat earther or anti-vaxxer.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And why would there be only 7 episodes, when they got 3 teams?Why does the Portal Tome book have slots for 7 portal scrolls as That_Shaman pointed out back when episode 1 released?

7 episodes, at a pace of 2-3 months per episode, means anywhere from 14-21 months. 18 months is usually considered the golden period for expansion development in many MMOs. Gives you enough time to actually make an expansion, but isn't so long that your playerbase drops out too much due to a lack of significant content. It also prevents any one plotline for dragging on too long, making the story sputter out.

Uh, that middle line is not not what I identified.I didn't say it was.... it was what I identified as what the lake was. Also, go back and look at the updated version of my post, you will see the maps, while not exactly aligning, clearly show the big inland sea to be where I said it was.

From this comment, I'm fairly certain you don't know how textures on 3d objects work...The image of the world we got was from a carpet in the Priory, it wasn't on a 3d surface, it was on a flat one. The 3d map is the old one from the Order of Whisper's sphere, which was HEAVILY DISTORTED, and had multiple places where it overlapped because it was a square fitted to a spherical objected.

That's one hell of a really kitten detailed placeholder.No it isn't, in fact, its surprisingly undetailed in every way possible. Look at the undiscovered map of the playable areas, and compere it to the big section east of Ascalon, and there is a massively noticeable different level of detail between them. You could very easily say that entire region if flat, featureless, grasslands, due to how little there is there besides a few small bodies of water.

And just in case you missed it after I edited my last post

[Walhalla.5473]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Walhalla.5473" said:Also why Cantha? The last we heard of Cantha was that it went into a xenophobic isolationistic dictatorship and right now there is nothing to assume that something changed. Going there could start an intercontinental war and another war is the last thing we need with Kralkatorrik being op right now two Elder Dragons who could awaken any time and a war against elona thats coming now.

Because people are bent on nostalgia. And other people seem to believe that "if we haven't heard of it yet, there's nothing there".

I agree that it would be more interesting (and, to be honest, far more logical) to go explore new lands than return to Cantha ATM.

I don't really understand this obsession with Cantha people seem to have. Back in GW1 I had the impression that Cantha was the least favourite part of the game in the community. Big ugly ghetto, two wastelands, putting in a squishy meele class where enemies explode on death and missions were real slugfests.

And after playing with nostalgia in one expansion and now the Living World ( the Joko plot makes it neccesary ). It would be really nice to go somewhere else to discover new land, new lore etc. Sandswept Isles showed that it can be done and I believe that Anet can deliver new lore rich regions for an expansion.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Walhalla.5473" said:Also why Cantha? The last we heard of Cantha was that it went into a xenophobic isolationistic dictatorship and right now there is nothing to assume that something changed. Going there could start an intercontinental war and another war is the last thing we need with Kralkatorrik being op right now two Elder Dragons who could awaken any time and a war against elona thats coming now.The "war" against Elona is going to end before it begins, and Kralkatorik will be dead and replaced before we go to Cantha.

The war could end now, which is unlikely, it could also end at the end of the season and if it ends at the end of the season, its gonna be at least a few months long, long enough for some destruction and diminishing the number of soldiers and warriors at both sides

And for Kralkatorrik dying, we still need to find out how to replace him, just killing him and taking his magic isn't enough. We probably need the "weapon" that was talked about in the story of PoF, which is right now somewhere, for that.

And its way more likely that we go east or north in the next expansion than Cantha.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

That's one hell of a really kitten detailed placeholder.No it isn't, in fact, its surprisingly undetailed in every way possible. Look at the undiscovered map of the playable areas, and compere it to the big section east of Ascalon, and there is a massively noticeable different level of detail between them. You could very easily say that entire region if flat, featureless, grasslands, due to how little there is there besides a few small bodies of water.

And just in case you missed it after I edited my last post

Do you even see your own image?

The Tarnished Coast, Orr, Istan and Kournan shore, none of it lines up. Hell, the Sea of Elon is completely off its marker. And it certainly isn't even in the same place as before, given that Istan and Kourna are misaligned in a different way than before. It's pretty obvious that you're scaling That_Shaman's map too small. If you could even scale it to size given the aforementioned fact that it's warped from proper proportions.

And it actually is rather detailed for "placeholder", what with giant bodies of water in the northeast corner, that maelstrom-looking blue spot down south, and a number of mountainous and plains details you'd see in unexplored Kryta. Not enough detail to go about pointing out minor landmarks or zone borders, since none exist, but still fairly detailed. About as detailed as unexplored parts of the EotN map in GW1, with snowy versus verdant mountains and the like.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Do you even see your own image?Do YOU?

It's literally just off mark from each other, and nowhere near off scale enough to suggest that the body of water barely visible in the top right hand corner is the lake near Frostgorge. What you suggest would require the map be significantly more compressed then it is, when, in reality, it needs to be stretched out more, placing that remote body of water even further away then it is now, further DISPROVING your hypothesis. Though at that point the Inland Sea would be inside Ascalon, but its still right next to Ascalon either way.

@"Walhalla.5473" said:The war could end now, which is unlikely, it could also end at the end of the season and if it ends at the end of the season, its gonna be at least a few months long, long enough for some destruction and diminishing the number of soldiers and warriors at both sides

And for Kralkatorrik dying, we still need to find out how to replace him, just killing him and taking his magic isn't enough. We probably need the "weapon" that was talked about in the story of PoF, which is right now somewhere, for that.

And its way more likely that we go east or north in the next expansion than Cantha.The war will end when Joko is defeated, which will likely be in episode 4 based on how the pacing of the story has gone so far. Episode 3 will be the end of his ability to wage war however.

I'm fairly certain the way we replace him is just having Aurene absorb enough of his magic so she can begin absorbing magic, but sharing it freely instead of hording it like the Elder Dragons do. I don't know why people think there is some complex process that needs to be done when none of the Exalted, or Glints memories, or Vlast's memories, or anything, has suggested its anything other then "Have Vlast(dead now so w/e) and Aurene get enough magic power that they reach the critical power state needed to do it". The fact Aurene grew and aged rather significantly simply by absorbing some of Balthazar's magic seems to suggest this.

North is possible because of Jormag, but its far more likely we would go WEST, into the "wetland" continent, then us going East. Going west would likely lead us into where Utopia was going to be, if Anet wants to try that again instead of just tossing many of its ideas into Tyria like they did with EoTN.