Daredevil vs Deadeye

[Legatus.3608]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:In both PvP and PvE, Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability. Anything you can kill stuff faster is always the better pick because as Thief, offense is the best defense.

@Legatus.3608 said:You're trying to argue that deadeye is a better build in skilled pvp than daredevil and you're just factually incorrect.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I never made an argument with that position. That's all you.

wutface.jpg

[bq pd.2148]

@Legatus.3608 said:You're trying to argue that deadeye is a better build in skilled pvp than daredevil and you're just factually incorrect.deadeye is not as good in conquest but if there was lets say last man standing or deathmatch mode, then deadeye would be probably better unless there are too many restricting rules as to how you have to kill your opponent.there is still often the point made that both d/p DD and s/d core would counter a deadeye in a normal open field fight wich was the case till the rework. the main vulnerability deadeye had and they were exploiting was mostly removed with the rework. i am talking about uninterruptable stealth access ofc. before he had maybe blinding powder and thats it. with that on cd you could just jump in his face, interrupt his stealth attempts while killing him with AA, now you jump in his face and he is gone.if there was a last man standing mode in this game every round would be won by a deadeye unless you had no good deadeye. but in our current modes both spvp and WvW they are not as efficient and dominat because both modes are not won by kills. you can win a matchup and an spvp match without any kills in theory by the games design (just think about bunker meta, i have seen matches with 0 kills - 1. on point wins). a good deadeye will allways kill his opponent no matter if the opponent is good or bad, just he will kill bad opponents in an instant and good opponents might take a while wich is why they are not meta in spvp, but the deadeye has to make a severe mistake to lose any 1 vs 1 fight.so yes deadeye is good in pvp (not sure what in your opinion is skilled pvp) on any level of play, BUT the game has no pvp mode that asks for the deadeyes qualities, wich makes them currently inefficient. but people frequently ask for more deathmatch or last man standing modes, if we see that in the future, then deadeye becomes OP because then he would have a mode asking for his qualities.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:In both PvP and PvE, Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability. Anything you can kill stuff faster is always the better pick because as Thief, offense is the best defense.

@Legatus.3608 said:You're trying to argue that deadeye is a better build in skilled pvp than daredevil and you're just factually incorrect.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I never made an argument with that position. That's all you.

wutface.jpg

I know what I said and it's very clear, "Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability".

My statement was within the context of comparing the two Elite Specs (dmg vs surv) based on the topic -- not in the context of which build is better for a high tier meta PvP in a role of decapping and +1 fights.

I have said that meta build discussion is off topic since that includes team composition and goals -- which you conveniently ignored just so you can argue against a position I never made.

I also said that in many cases in high tier PvP, Thief is not even needed in certain team composition since other professions can do what the Thief can do with greater efficiency. Thus discussing what build works in higher tier PvP is pointless since even your Daredevil D/P is just a troll build compared to other professions.

More often than not, the Daredevil D/P does little contribution to damage in a team fight and often a liability. Yeah good at rotations, but bad at team fights. Why do you think they rather decap than join in team fights?

Deadeye D/P is an asset in team fights - a target loaded with conditions plus Malicious backstab is a guaranteed downed target. That is just the fact. Yes bad at roration, but essential to team fights. For the Deadeye to work, it requires a certain team composition (e.g. someone else has to do the decapping), thus I said it is off topic.

Is my position much clearer now?

[UfoCoffee.2084]

@ShadowAgent.6053 said:

Thanks for this well put comment. Though about my other questions: which do you think is harder to play? Also, which do you prefer and why? Just curious.

Hey,

Well difficulty wise in instanced content I'd say they are faily equal with regards to rotation (unless we are talking about Rifle DE, which is a lot more tricky to optimise in combat), but surviving on a DD is easier since you have more dodges and more build-in evades in staff than what you'd normally have with Deadeye. For example #5 has a dodge at the very start, which you can alternate with regular dodges on some fast hitting bosses for a minor dps loss compared to the normal rotation. In general getting the timing down is worth it, because if you are using Scholar Runes and the Critital Strikes line and your healer is a bit slow to top off the health, any hit in end game content will send you below 90% health and you'd lose dmg modifiers.

However I find Deadeye a lot stronger in a solo scenario in open world, since it has a lot of self buffs + range. (Trickery+Critical Strikes + Deadeye trait setup)

In PvP I've only ever played different Daredevil builds, since I like the fast pace +1 spike style, so I can't really say for DE, but I do know some people have gotten really far with it. Seems more like outliers, than the norm so I assume that Deadeye requires more work and dedication to play well at high rank levels. Note that this was before the latest changes so things might be different now. I can recommend you watch Sindrener on Youtube or Twitch for up-to-date PvP Thief related topics.

Daredevil is my personal favourite spec in the game, because in reminds of the DevilMayCry 3 trickster playstyle > lots of dodges and you'd want to avoid getting hit at all so you don't lose your dmg modifiers when you're above 90% health and I enjoy evasion based playstyles in general (that is why I also like condi Mirage). Playing rifle Deadeye also has its charm in open world, when you can kill every single veteran or lower mob from max range before it even gets close (would need full glass cannon gear for that tho), but yeah my personal preference is Daredevil.

DE does a lot of damage in pvp but can be countered really easily by line of sight and anything spikey that can port to you ie other thieves, mesmers, core guardians etc It takes a lot of positional awareness, awareness of enemy skills and buffs ( killing yourself with reflection for example) and good kiting. It's good for fun every now and then but not that good for climbing IMO. Maybe if you absolutely master it and are an excellent player who's been playing for a long time and know what every class can do but then you'd probably be good on any class.

I wouldn't recommend Sindrener as he only ever plays s/d which is spammy and boring to watch, i'd look for Vallun instead. He makes really good youtube guides and also plays a bit of deadeye here and there. Best content creator for thief out there.

[Legatus.3608]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:In both PvP and PvE, Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability. Anything you can kill stuff faster is always the better pick because as Thief, offense is the best defense.

@Legatus.3608 said:You're trying to argue that deadeye is a better build in skilled pvp than daredevil and you're just factually incorrect.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I never made an argument with that position. That's all you.

wutface.jpg

I know what I said and it's very clear, "Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability".

My statement was within the context of comparing the two Elite Specs (dmg vs surv) based on the topic -- not in the context of which build is better for a high tier meta PvP in a role of decapping and +1 fights.

I have said that meta build discussion is off topic since that includes team composition and goals -- which you conveniently ignored just so you can argue against a position I never made.

I also said that in many cases in high tier PvP, Thief is not even needed in certain team composition since other professions can do what the Thief can do with greater efficiency. Thus discussing what build works in higher tier PvP is pointless since even your Daredevil D/P is just a troll build compared to other professions.

More often than not, the Daredevil D/P does little contribution to damage in a team fight and often a liability. Yeah good at rotations, but bad at team fights. Why do you think they rather decap than join in team fights?

Deadeye D/P is an asset in team fights - a target loaded with conditions plus Malicious backstab is a guaranteed downed target. That is just the fact. Yes bad at roration, but essential to team fights. For the Deadeye to work, it requires a certain team composition (e.g. someone else has to do the decapping), thus I said it is off topic.

Is my position much clearer now?

Yes but most of what you said is still flat out wrong. The bottom line is which spec will win you more games, and that spec is meta dp daredevil.

[babazhook.6805]

DE does a lot of damage in pvp but can be countered really easily by line of sight and anything spikey that can port to you ie other thieves, mesmers, core guardians etc It takes a lot of positional awareness, awareness of enemy skills and buffs ( killing yourself with reflection for example) and good kiting. It's good for fun every now and then but not that good for climbing IMO. Maybe if you absolutely master it and are an excellent player who's been playing for a long time and know what every class can do but then you'd probably be good on any class.

How does a DD port to a DE user?

Outside the steal It generally via s/d , s/p or d/p . By the same token DE spec does not need to use Rifle so the LOS counters , reflects and the like are a non starter when comparing the specs. DE specced can work very well with a number of weapon sets. In fact if we look at DE versus DD with Staff VS Rifle PLUS unique utilities , DE has ports offered via the weapon and traitlines while DD does not.

To properly compare the advantages of each trait line you have to compare like for like. How does s/d fare in DE versus DD and why is one better than the other> How does D/p in DE versus DD fare and why is one better than another?

The only other valid like for like comparison would be How does Staff perform relative to Rifle.

[babazhook.6805]

The underlying problem with this debate is the selective nature of what some deem a DE versus a DD. In speaking of DE it somehow always presumed the DE is a rifle user and when speaking of DD people tend to refer to a d/p build.

This is logically inconsistent.

To poperly compare the specs,(as I mentioned above) take a D/P build DE versus a DP build DD and compare each trait that can be taken and then make the case as to why one spec superior to the other. Then do that with the added utilities. Assuming DE must be Rifle is like assuming DD must be staff.

Now I do not PvP but looked to Metabattle for the most highly rated Conquest build and that a d/p DD. The only unique utility it uses is the heal. All of the other utilities can be traited by a DE user . I then looked at trait for trait and the only Key components are PI , UC and the extra dodge with endurance thief. All the other selctions are availabel to DE using d/p.

Can someone who PvPs a lot define how is it that PI, UC and the extra dodges , along with that different heal offers that much more in way of advantages over a D/P thief taking some combination of traits in the DE line?

(There certainly the difference in the steals with one having a port to and the other not but there advantages and disadvantages to each)

[babazhook.6805]

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Mobility today is determined by how many teleports you have. Shortbow #5 is still the utility mainly for mobility. I would have agreed that Daredevil is a lot faster before they nerfed Unhindered, but now, that trait is not even worth it due to Exhaustion.

UC only Exhausts if you are removing a condition using it, which doesn't happens 90% of the time you are roaming.

Also DeadEye mobility is indeed slower than other thief builds.S/D usually uses Acrobatics for Swiftnes and D/P uses UC.

DeadEye has terrible access to swiftness (has to mark something or waste utility). Keeping up stealth for 50% speed also isn't a bright idea, or you are wasting time reaplying stealth with D/P or you are wasting dodges that could save your life later.

So yes, DE is in a general way less mobile than Acro S/D and D/P Daredevil.

I tend to mostly roam in WvW and have compared DD speed to DE speed overall when moving cross map. Using Hidden thief the differences in cross map movement marginal if they exist at all. Forward dodge for Hidden with the added +50 percent versus 33 from swiftness words very well . Obviously Rifle needs to be wielded.

In My s/p build I am using Acro so DD is not really any faster.

Using UC for swiftness is also wasting dodges that you can use later as is using Dodge for the Acro swiftness. granted the Swiftness lasts longer then Hidden thief add so you tend to use less dodges overall but if the point just to cross the map fast and you have your rifle out, blending dodges with stealth utilities works very well. That you might end up in a fight part ways across the map is no different really then having used up all your INI on SB 5 for porting when an enemy encountered. You adapt on the fly.

I also have a condi build that does not use Rifle. He P/d and even when specced DD would use UC for that speed over impaling so THAT swiftness missed when compared to his current DE spec. That said even prior to POF release I had specced him out to Core just because it would do more damage in that particular build.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:In both PvP and PvE, Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability. Anything you can kill stuff faster is always the better pick because as Thief, offense is the best defense.

@Legatus.3608 said:You're trying to argue that deadeye is a better build in skilled pvp than daredevil and you're just factually incorrect.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I never made an argument with that position. That's all you.

wutface.jpg

I know what I said and it's very clear, "Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability".

My statement was within the context of comparing the two Elite Specs (dmg vs surv) based on the topic -- not in the context of which build is better for a high tier meta PvP in a role of decapping and +1 fights.

I have said that meta build discussion is off topic since that includes team composition and goals -- which you conveniently ignored just so you can argue against a position I never made.

I also said that in many cases in high tier PvP, Thief is not even needed in certain team composition since other professions can do what the Thief can do with greater efficiency. Thus discussing what build works in higher tier PvP is pointless since even your Daredevil D/P is just a troll build compared to other professions.

More often than not, the Daredevil D/P does little contribution to damage in a team fight and often a liability. Yeah good at rotations, but bad at team fights. Why do you think they rather decap than join in team fights?

Deadeye D/P is an asset in team fights - a target loaded with conditions plus Malicious backstab is a guaranteed downed target. That is just the fact. Yes bad at roration, but essential to team fights. For the Deadeye to work, it requires a certain team composition (e.g. someone else has to do the decapping), thus I said it is off topic.

Is my position much clearer now?

Yes but most of what you said is still flat out wrong. The bottom line is which spec will win you more games, and that spec is meta dp daredevil.

That is YOUR bottom line - NOT the topic of this thread.

Winning more game is highly dependent to your team's performance and composition which is off topic -- I think I've said that numerous times already.

[Legatus.3608]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:In both PvP and PvE, Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability. Anything you can kill stuff faster is always the better pick because as Thief, offense is the best defense.

@Legatus.3608 said:You're trying to argue that deadeye is a better build in skilled pvp than daredevil and you're just factually incorrect.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I never made an argument with that position. That's all you.

wutface.jpg

I know what I said and it's very clear, "Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability".

My statement was within the context of comparing the two Elite Specs (dmg vs surv) based on the topic -- not in the context of which build is better for a high tier meta PvP in a role of decapping and +1 fights.

I have said that meta build discussion is off topic since that includes team composition and goals -- which you conveniently ignored just so you can argue against a position I never made.

I also said that in many cases in high tier PvP, Thief is not even needed in certain team composition since other professions can do what the Thief can do with greater efficiency. Thus discussing what build works in higher tier PvP is pointless since even your Daredevil D/P is just a troll build compared to other professions.

More often than not, the Daredevil D/P does little contribution to damage in a team fight and often a liability. Yeah good at rotations, but bad at team fights. Why do you think they rather decap than join in team fights?

Deadeye D/P is an asset in team fights - a target loaded with conditions plus Malicious backstab is a guaranteed downed target. That is just the fact. Yes bad at roration, but essential to team fights. For the Deadeye to work, it requires a certain team composition (e.g. someone else has to do the decapping), thus I said it is off topic.

Is my position much clearer now?

Yes but most of what you said is still flat out wrong. The bottom line is which spec will win you more games, and that spec is meta dp daredevil.

That is YOUR bottom line - NOT the topic of this thread.

Winning more game is highly dependent to your team's performance and composition which is off topic -- I think I've said that numerous times already.

Which is more useful in more situations is pretty clearly a direct relation to which build is going to win you more games.

You can disagree with that if you want, as long as we both agree daredevil will win you more games its fine.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:In both PvP and PvE, Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability. Anything you can kill stuff faster is always the better pick because as Thief, offense is the best defense.

@Legatus.3608 said:You're trying to argue that deadeye is a better build in skilled pvp than daredevil and you're just factually incorrect.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I never made an argument with that position. That's all you.

wutface.jpg

I know what I said and it's very clear, "Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability".

My statement was within the context of comparing the two Elite Specs (dmg vs surv) based on the topic -- not in the context of which build is better for a high tier meta PvP in a role of decapping and +1 fights.

I have said that meta build discussion is off topic since that includes team composition and goals -- which you conveniently ignored just so you can argue against a position I never made.

I also said that in many cases in high tier PvP, Thief is not even needed in certain team composition since other professions can do what the Thief can do with greater efficiency. Thus discussing what build works in higher tier PvP is pointless since even your Daredevil D/P is just a troll build compared to other professions.

More often than not, the Daredevil D/P does little contribution to damage in a team fight and often a liability. Yeah good at rotations, but bad at team fights. Why do you think they rather decap than join in team fights?

Deadeye D/P is an asset in team fights - a target loaded with conditions plus Malicious backstab is a guaranteed downed target. That is just the fact. Yes bad at roration, but essential to team fights. For the Deadeye to work, it requires a certain team composition (e.g. someone else has to do the decapping), thus I said it is off topic.

Is my position much clearer now?

Yes but most of what you said is still flat out wrong. The bottom line is which spec will win you more games, and that spec is meta dp daredevil.

That is YOUR bottom line - NOT the topic of this thread.

Winning more game is highly dependent to your team's performance and composition which is off topic -- I think I've said that numerous times already.

Which is more useful in more situations is pretty clearly a direct relation to which build is going to win you more games.

Again, "useful in more situation" is subjective to team composition. Just because you run with Daredevil D/P it doesn't necessarily mean you'll win more games. I have also mentioned that in many cases, Thief is not even needed.

You can disagree with that if you want, as long as we both agree daredevil will win you more games its fine.

I disagree with both of your assertions.

[Legatus.3608]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:In both PvP and PvE, Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability. Anything you can kill stuff faster is always the better pick because as Thief, offense is the best defense.

@Legatus.3608 said:You're trying to argue that deadeye is a better build in skilled pvp than daredevil and you're just factually incorrect.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I never made an argument with that position. That's all you.

wutface.jpg

I know what I said and it's very clear, "Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability".

My statement was within the context of comparing the two Elite Specs (dmg vs surv) based on the topic -- not in the context of which build is better for a high tier meta PvP in a role of decapping and +1 fights.

I have said that meta build discussion is off topic since that includes team composition and goals -- which you conveniently ignored just so you can argue against a position I never made.

I also said that in many cases in high tier PvP, Thief is not even needed in certain team composition since other professions can do what the Thief can do with greater efficiency. Thus discussing what build works in higher tier PvP is pointless since even your Daredevil D/P is just a troll build compared to other professions.

More often than not, the Daredevil D/P does little contribution to damage in a team fight and often a liability. Yeah good at rotations, but bad at team fights. Why do you think they rather decap than join in team fights?

Deadeye D/P is an asset in team fights - a target loaded with conditions plus Malicious backstab is a guaranteed downed target. That is just the fact. Yes bad at roration, but essential to team fights. For the Deadeye to work, it requires a certain team composition (e.g. someone else has to do the decapping), thus I said it is off topic.

Is my position much clearer now?

Yes but most of what you said is still flat out wrong. The bottom line is which spec will win you more games, and that spec is meta dp daredevil.

That is YOUR bottom line - NOT the topic of this thread.

Winning more game is highly dependent to your team's performance and composition which is off topic -- I think I've said that numerous times already.

Which is more useful in more situations is pretty clearly a direct relation to which build is going to win you more games.

Again, "useful in more situation" is subjective to team composition. Just because you run with Daredevil D/P it doesn't necessarily mean you'll win more games. I have also mentioned that in many cases, Thief is not even needed.

You can disagree with that if you want, as long as we both agree daredevil will win you more games its fine.

I disagree with both of your assertions.

Well then, we cannot agree. What you're saying is factually incorrect and I'm sure there's data out there proving this - deadeyes lose more games than daredevils in real spvp. You might be correct in lower tiers where people don't know how to respond to literally anything happening around them and rotating is a foreign concept, but at least even in plat and above (and even that bar has gotten lower lately) you will not win more games with deadeye than you do with daredevil.

For starters, any team composed of any non-DE thief, any mesmer, any ranger, or any engineer should completely shit on any deadeye build without any extra actions required by that person other than pressing his buttons. That's a big percentage of games.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:In both PvP and PvE, Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability. Anything you can kill stuff faster is always the better pick because as Thief, offense is the best defense.

@Legatus.3608 said:You're trying to argue that deadeye is a better build in skilled pvp than daredevil and you're just factually incorrect.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I never made an argument with that position. That's all you.

wutface.jpg

I know what I said and it's very clear, "Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability".

My statement was within the context of comparing the two Elite Specs (dmg vs surv) based on the topic -- not in the context of which build is better for a high tier meta PvP in a role of decapping and +1 fights.

I have said that meta build discussion is off topic since that includes team composition and goals -- which you conveniently ignored just so you can argue against a position I never made.

I also said that in many cases in high tier PvP, Thief is not even needed in certain team composition since other professions can do what the Thief can do with greater efficiency. Thus discussing what build works in higher tier PvP is pointless since even your Daredevil D/P is just a troll build compared to other professions.

More often than not, the Daredevil D/P does little contribution to damage in a team fight and often a liability. Yeah good at rotations, but bad at team fights. Why do you think they rather decap than join in team fights?

Deadeye D/P is an asset in team fights - a target loaded with conditions plus Malicious backstab is a guaranteed downed target. That is just the fact. Yes bad at roration, but essential to team fights. For the Deadeye to work, it requires a certain team composition (e.g. someone else has to do the decapping), thus I said it is off topic.

Is my position much clearer now?

Yes but most of what you said is still flat out wrong. The bottom line is which spec will win you more games, and that spec is meta dp daredevil.

That is YOUR bottom line - NOT the topic of this thread.

Winning more game is highly dependent to your team's performance and composition which is off topic -- I think I've said that numerous times already.

Which is more useful in more situations is pretty clearly a direct relation to which build is going to win you more games.

Again, "useful in more situation" is subjective to team composition. Just because you run with Daredevil D/P it doesn't necessarily mean you'll win more games. I have also mentioned that in many cases, Thief is not even needed.

You can disagree with that if you want, as long as we both agree daredevil will win you more games its fine.

I disagree with both of your assertions.

Well then, we cannot agree. What you're saying is factually incorrect and I'm sure there's data out there proving this - deadeyes lose more games than daredevils in real spvp.

There are so many factors why Deadeye loses games, like team composition as I am again mentioning.

In addition, blaming a specific Elite Spec of a specific profession for the loss is hardly objective. And I'm going to mention this again, perhaps Thief in those team composition may not even be needed.

If MetaBattle is of any indication of what is meta, you can take a look at the guide "What Profession should I play?" and this is what it says;

"The Daredevil elite specialization focuses on mobility and evading attacks. In contrast, the Deadeye elite specialization sacrifices mobility for stealth and single-target burst."

Which perfectly agreed with what I have posted so far. Why? Because anyone can objectively observe this fact...except you obviously.

If I am "factually incorrect" as you claim, so does the MetaBattle guide.

It seems at this point I've said what I need to say and I'm just repeating myself.

[Legatus.3608]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:In both PvP and PvE, Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability. Anything you can kill stuff faster is always the better pick because as Thief, offense is the best defense.

@Legatus.3608 said:You're trying to argue that deadeye is a better build in skilled pvp than daredevil and you're just factually incorrect.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I never made an argument with that position. That's all you.

wutface.jpg

I know what I said and it's very clear, "Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability".

My statement was within the context of comparing the two Elite Specs (dmg vs surv) based on the topic -- not in the context of which build is better for a high tier meta PvP in a role of decapping and +1 fights.

I have said that meta build discussion is off topic since that includes team composition and goals -- which you conveniently ignored just so you can argue against a position I never made.

I also said that in many cases in high tier PvP, Thief is not even needed in certain team composition since other professions can do what the Thief can do with greater efficiency. Thus discussing what build works in higher tier PvP is pointless since even your Daredevil D/P is just a troll build compared to other professions.

More often than not, the Daredevil D/P does little contribution to damage in a team fight and often a liability. Yeah good at rotations, but bad at team fights. Why do you think they rather decap than join in team fights?

Deadeye D/P is an asset in team fights - a target loaded with conditions plus Malicious backstab is a guaranteed downed target. That is just the fact. Yes bad at roration, but essential to team fights. For the Deadeye to work, it requires a certain team composition (e.g. someone else has to do the decapping), thus I said it is off topic.

Is my position much clearer now?

Yes but most of what you said is still flat out wrong. The bottom line is which spec will win you more games, and that spec is meta dp daredevil.

That is YOUR bottom line - NOT the topic of this thread.

Winning more game is highly dependent to your team's performance and composition which is off topic -- I think I've said that numerous times already.

Which is more useful in more situations is pretty clearly a direct relation to which build is going to win you more games.

Again, "useful in more situation" is subjective to team composition. Just because you run with Daredevil D/P it doesn't necessarily mean you'll win more games. I have also mentioned that in many cases, Thief is not even needed.

You can disagree with that if you want, as long as we both agree daredevil will win you more games its fine.

I disagree with both of your assertions.

Well then, we cannot agree. What you're saying is factually incorrect and I'm sure there's data out there proving this - deadeyes lose more games than daredevils in real spvp.

There are so many factors why Deadeye loses games, like team composition as I am again mentioning.

In addition, blaming a specific Elite Spec of a specific profession for the loss is hardly objective. And I'm going to mention this again, perhaps Thief in those team composition may not even be needed.

If MetaBattle is of any indication of what is meta, you can take a look at the guide "What Profession should I play?" and this is what it says;

"The Daredevil elite specialization focuses on mobility and evading attacks. In contrast, the Deadeye elite specialization sacrifices mobility for stealth and single-target burst."

Which perfectly agreed with what I have posted so far. Why? Because anyone can objectively observe this fact...except you obviously.

If I am "factually incorrect" as you claim, so does the MetaBattle guide.

It seems at this point I've said what I need to say and I'm just repeating myself.

Are you really quoting metabattle? The site that has daredevil DP listed as meta (IE, the category ABOVE "great") and rifle deadeye as "test"?

I'm about 80% sure you're trolling this guy at this point. This is a new player who is asking what builds are more useful in more situations (daredevil) and what builds are more difficult to play (arguably daredevil also). The last thing new people need is your trolling. Stop it.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:In both PvP and PvE, Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability. Anything you can kill stuff faster is always the better pick because as Thief, offense is the best defense.

@Legatus.3608 said:You're trying to argue that deadeye is a better build in skilled pvp than daredevil and you're just factually incorrect.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I never made an argument with that position. That's all you.

wutface.jpg

I know what I said and it's very clear, "Deadeye is better than Daredevil since Deadeye adds to damage and Daredevil adds to survivability".

My statement was within the context of comparing the two Elite Specs (dmg vs surv) based on the topic -- not in the context of which build is better for a high tier meta PvP in a role of decapping and +1 fights.

I have said that meta build discussion is off topic since that includes team composition and goals -- which you conveniently ignored just so you can argue against a position I never made.

I also said that in many cases in high tier PvP, Thief is not even needed in certain team composition since other professions can do what the Thief can do with greater efficiency. Thus discussing what build works in higher tier PvP is pointless since even your Daredevil D/P is just a troll build compared to other professions.

More often than not, the Daredevil D/P does little contribution to damage in a team fight and often a liability. Yeah good at rotations, but bad at team fights. Why do you think they rather decap than join in team fights?

Deadeye D/P is an asset in team fights - a target loaded with conditions plus Malicious backstab is a guaranteed downed target. That is just the fact. Yes bad at roration, but essential to team fights. For the Deadeye to work, it requires a certain team composition (e.g. someone else has to do the decapping), thus I said it is off topic.

Is my position much clearer now?

Yes but most of what you said is still flat out wrong. The bottom line is which spec will win you more games, and that spec is meta dp daredevil.

That is YOUR bottom line - NOT the topic of this thread.

Winning more game is highly dependent to your team's performance and composition which is off topic -- I think I've said that numerous times already.

Which is more useful in more situations is pretty clearly a direct relation to which build is going to win you more games.

Again, "useful in more situation" is subjective to team composition. Just because you run with Daredevil D/P it doesn't necessarily mean you'll win more games. I have also mentioned that in many cases, Thief is not even needed.

You can disagree with that if you want, as long as we both agree daredevil will win you more games its fine.

I disagree with both of your assertions.

Well then, we cannot agree. What you're saying is factually incorrect and I'm sure there's data out there proving this - deadeyes lose more games than daredevils in real spvp.

There are so many factors why Deadeye loses games, like team composition as I am again mentioning.

In addition, blaming a specific Elite Spec of a specific profession for the loss is hardly objective. And I'm going to mention this again, perhaps Thief in those team composition may not even be needed.

If MetaBattle is of any indication of what is meta, you can take a look at the guide "What Profession should I play?" and this is what it says;

"The Daredevil elite specialization focuses on mobility and evading attacks. In contrast, the Deadeye elite specialization sacrifices mobility for stealth and single-target burst."

Which perfectly agreed with what I have posted so far. Why? Because anyone can objectively observe this fact...except you obviously.

If I am "factually incorrect" as you claim, so does the MetaBattle guide.

It seems at this point I've said what I need to say and I'm just repeating myself.

Are you really quoting metabattle? The site that has daredevil DP listed as meta (IE, the category ABOVE "great") and rifle deadeye as "test"?

I'm about 80% sure you're trolling this guy at this point. This is a new player who is asking what builds are more useful in more situations (daredevil) and what builds are more difficult to play (arguably daredevil also). The last thing new people need is your trolling. Stop it.

Well you can continue to be dishonest if you want. I'm done repeating myself.

[Scud.5067]

Just want to add:

Deadeye wins because I can shoot people with a boat shaped as a gun. Or a gun shaped as a boat. Or a gun..boat. I..

Awesome.

[Vornollo.5182]

Sorry to Legatus and Sir Vincent, I just sort of skipped over your little cirlce jerk :P

---

@"babazhook.6805" said:Can someone who PvPs a lot define how is it that PI, UC and the extra dodges , along with that different heal offers that much more in way of advantages over a D/P thief taking some combination of traits in the DE line?

(There certainly the difference in the steals with one having a port to and the other not but there advantages and disadvantages to each)So that Port on Steal being one thing that adds to the overall Speed, mobility and thereby Map-Presence, as well as Map-"Pressure", like you mentioned.Simply appearing on-node for a second (visible on the minimap! which doesn't go for Mark, compared to Steal. Not on-node.) can force the enemy team to make certain rotations. Mark can have a similar effect, but it's usually not as efficient as the Thief will look to be further away (literally) from being a threat. Forcing rotations in the favor of your team is huge for a Thief.Aside of that, it's also insanely useful at times to cast 'Black Powder' into Steal for a variety of purposes, which simply cannot be done with Mark.

Impacting Disruption makes Headshot more than just a great tool for Interrupting, it actually generates a lot of Pressure and also allows for nice plays and chain CC options (You can proc Basi Venom on the Pulmonary Impact hit etc.). Which is really quite key, especially in the rare situation where you briefly have to hold a node in a 1v1 state for your team to arrive and the like.

Unhindered Combatant is just strong for Mobility. The Exhaust debuff is negligible for sPvP as 9/10 times you're moving around rotating instead of being dragged down by Condi's in a fight. Even then, it helps a lot with a proper Condition-Cleansing rotation when you're in a pinch. It's a shame having to blow your Signet of Agility or Shadowstep on a cripple/immob/chill if you could've just used a dodge. Especially when there's more pressing Damaging Conditions active on you.Also, permanent Swiftness is really quite key for a profession that has to rely on quick movement around the map. The added distance on the dodge is just nice for that extra little bit of speed between rotations.

Also, another pretty big trait difference is with "Brawlers' Tenacity". Considering you did note the difference in Heal, this is a little weird not to pay attention to.During a game, you will more often than not use 'Channeled Vigor' not for your health, but for your Endurance. More Endurance leads to more dodges, which means more Dashes. More Dashing means more speed and increased mobility.Increased mobility leads to more map presence, quicker decaps, quicker +1's so on and so forth.Having all these dodges also usually results in more overall resources to arrive with in a fight. You don't have to use your Shortbow's Infiltrator's Arrow quite as often and you can use both Dashes and the SB#5 to work together and provide better management on both your Endurance and Initiative, so that you got more options available in a +1 scenario etc.

All in all. Daredevil just excellently plays into the entire role of Thief far, far better.

[babazhook.6805]

@Vornollo.5182 said:Sorry to Legatus and Sir Vincent, I just sort of skipped over your little cirlce jerk :P

---

@"babazhook.6805" said:Can someone who PvPs a lot define how is it that PI, UC and the extra dodges , along with that different heal offers that much more in way of advantages over a D/P thief taking some combination of traits in the DE line?

(There certainly the difference in the steals with one having a port to and the other not but there advantages and disadvantages to each)So that Port on Steal being one thing that adds to the overall Speed, mobility and thereby Map-Presence, as well as Map-"Pressure", like you mentioned.Simply appearing on-node for a second (

visible on the minimap! which doesn't go for Mark, compared to Steal. Not

on-node

.

) can force the enemy team to make certain rotations. Mark can have a similar effect, but it's usually not as efficient as the Thief will look to be further away (

literally

) from being a threat. Forcing rotations in the favor of your team is huge for a Thief.Aside of that, it's also insanely useful at times to cast 'Black Powder' into Steal for a variety of purposes, which simply cannot be done with Mark.

Impacting Disruption makes Headshot more than just a great tool for Interrupting, it actually generates a lot of Pressure and also allows for nice plays and chain CC options (

You can proc Basi Venom on the Pulmonary Impact hit etc.

). Which is really quite key, especially in the rare situation where you briefly have to hold a node in a 1v1 state for your team to arrive and the like.

Unhindered Combatant is just strong for Mobility. The Exhaust debuff is negligible for sPvP as 9/10 times you're moving around rotating instead of being dragged down by Condi's in a fight. Even then, it helps a lot with a proper Condition-Cleansing rotation when you're in a pinch. It's a shame having to blow your Signet of Agility or Shadowstep on a cripple/immob/chill if you could've just used a dodge. Especially when there's more pressing Damaging Conditions active on you.Also, permanent Swiftness is really quite key for a profession that has to rely on quick movement around the map. The added distance on the dodge is just nice for that extra little bit of speed between rotations.

Also, another pretty big trait difference is with "Brawlers' Tenacity". Considering you did note the difference in Heal, this is a little weird not to pay attention to.During a game, you will more often than not use 'Channeled Vigor' not for your health, but for your Endurance. More Endurance leads to more dodges, which means more Dashes. More Dashing means more speed and increased mobility.Increased mobility leads to more map presence, quicker decaps, quicker +1's so on and so forth.Having all these dodges also usually results in more overall resources to arrive with in a fight. You don't have to use your Shortbow's Infiltrator's Arrow quite as often and you can use both Dashes and the SB#5 to work together and provide better management on both your Endurance and Initiative, so that you got more options available in a +1 scenario etc.

All in all. Daredevil just excellently plays into the entire role of Thief far, far better.

I would point out in comparison. (I will assume no Rifle used of course but rather the s/x build or d/p builds specced DE)

If in S/d , Pulmonary impact is of little use. To the dodges, again when the Mode not considered more stealth>more dodges in my opinion as a defensive measure.

Getting to a point faster for a +1 is certainly an advantage and the real thing in daredevils favor there is the old steal , but at the same time my understanding is when people parked on points (scoruges etc) you do not wnat to necessarily steal into it. Steal to only works with a defined target.

D/p in the DE build can still use Headshot for Interrupts. They will not get the damage when doing so but it just as effective at canceling a skill.Any damage loss is more then made up for in the overall greater damage OUT of DE added to the richer INI pool. More INI is more attacks and your Malicious backstab outputs much more damage then the D/P spec.

If I look at a 1v1 comparion all traits in like D/p builds ( will leave s/x out , I feel s/x is just better with DE)

In each line # the minor adepts are a wash as they outside the type of steal they just allow weapon access to staff or rifle.

Major adept. DD takes brawlers only useful on one skill for the heal ICD. DE will take MI for faster mali build. Edge DD.

Minor master. Driven fortitude versus renewing gaze. Both these skills are encounter specific meaning they only useful in combat.If in combat Renewing gaze superior. That health gain from a successful evade more then made up for with the Regen on kill comboed with a steal reset. Steal reset is huge even wihout a Port to target.Edge DE.

Major Master . Payback versus PI. DE already has a significant damage out advantage in the d/p spec with Malicious backstab and a greater INI pool. The d/p build DE can afford not to output that damage when using headshot for that reason. Payback works across all utilities as a universal lower cooldown. Again these traits are specific to there being an encounter. Edge DE.

Minor Grandmaster . DE Iron Sight. DD endurance thief. Again encounter specific as either must be used on entering battle. Iron sight is 10 percent damage to mark combined with 10 percent lower damage from mark taken. Endurance thief is another dodge after a successful steal. Having played DD in WvW in d/p build I found the extra dodges got to be redundant after a while. Nice to have to be sure but there much to be said for more damage and 10 percent significant. Always dodging is not doing damage and I never found a need to use them all in an encounter. I give the Edge to DE here..

Grandmaster traits. UC versus Malificient 7. This is a much harder call but there very specific advatages to each. Mali 7 is 7 more INI along with 6 boons all longlasting outside the protection. It also adds significant damage to the Backstab. UC Has the Immob breaks + swiftness. The IMMOB break is certainly an advantage, the swiftness not so much so. 10 percent less damage taken on UC you already get with Iron sight. Mali 7 wins here as far as I am concerned in a FIGHT while outside a fight for that mobility UC wins.

Finally there the utilities overall. I find Cantrips one of the best types of Utilities we have for overall function. Indeed in the build I saw meta battle the DD specific utilities outside the heal not even used.

To sum up if one is on the thief in a plus 1 situation or even dueling a 1v1 (I know thief should not duel in PvP) DE wins for greater overall damage. In the role of de-cap which relies primarily on getting to a given point faster DD wins. The role for thief in PvP (like the mode itself which is one reason I do not like it) is much more narrowly defined and any profession class or build that has its potential builds limited by the MODE will see its own inherent advantages compromised. Switch game mode to where getting to a defined point not as important and advantages swing to DE spec. If as example dueling DE using D/P and DD using D/P in WvW I see no reason DE would be at a disadvantage.

[Vornollo.5182]

@babazhook.6805 said:Snipped.Very interesting comparisons!'Impacting Disruption' is indeed relatively useless to S/D, very different story for S/P for obvious reasons.In fact, the entire Daredevil Traitline is relatively useless to S/D, especially considering Acrobatics' current state. Hence the S/D meta is considered to be with Acrobatics, rather than Daredevil.One of the things that S/D has always struggled with in sPvP, even somewhat during it's peak pre-HoT days, was/is the lack of stealth. Obscuring your movement/rotation from the enemy team can be quite critical at times.

Anyhow, the thing about your comparisons, is that you assume you're fighting frequently. Which really, if you play your role well, you're not doing too much of.Even when you get into a fight, you're only there to quickly end it in a matter of seconds and you should pick your moment to burst with a bit of care. Check for a Signet of Stone being on/off CD and such for example, before jumping in on a (low health) target.What I'm getting at is that, yes, DE has better damage and higher burst.In fact, it's got damage and burst in such an abundance, that it's actually not needed. The burst that Daredevil provides, is more than plenty to get the job done. If you need more, it probably means you made a bad rotation in the first place.

The entire playstyle attached to sPvP calls for the Thief to do more than damage. If you don't fully play into the mobility card, you're really a detriment to your team.Unless you play DE along with Acrobatics and run the same utilities used for core S/D, you will rotate at the same speed as a Mirage would (quite sure you'd actually be slower, but that's an assumption), or most other side-node based duelist builds.You're aware that we shouldn't 1v1, but with the reduced mobility on most DE builds, that's exactly what you'd keep on getting yourself into. At that point, you'd be better off picking up one of those side-node dueler builds instead because they quite frankly, do what you can do, but better.

It's one of the major differences between WvW and sPvP... You do need those nodes to win in sPvP. You got to build for that and play around it, it's a main mechanic which simply cannot be ignored.

At the end of the day though, I cannot deny the fact that DE's traits are better suited for damage/fights. It's simply true.However, we're not supposed to be fighting anymore (really hate to say that...) We got to be constantly moving and rotating, for that the increased speed and mobility is the better option, because without DE, we still got solid burst if we play our cards right.

[babazhook.6805]

@Vornollo.5182 said:

The point I was making is of course that the mode is determing which spec works better in PvP which has little to do with the relative strength of the spec itself. I keep reading as example that the DD D/p build a natural counter to DE due to its ports and escape ability. This is simply not true. That added stealth and ability to stealth on dodge along with more INI more then makes up for the advantages of more dodges. If you can shadowstrike two times more because of INI then you can exhaust those 2 extra dodges readily enough.

To the point on damage. While true the D/p spec can put out enough damage to take someone out in a plus 1 , it also true that the DE can better afford to invest in stats that make them more robust simply because they hav a higher base damage. As example taking SA with some investment in vitality with CIS traited can allow you to shrug off damage from the DD spec more easily then he can ignore your own which of course means he relies on those dodges much more.

To S/p and why I find I prefer DE in the spec. It comes down to BqoBk. PW is the go to for damage on the spec and I think you get far more with BqoBk then you would using the PI on headshot. You are getting an interrupt in the PW chain in any case so unless fighting at range PW>headshot from a damage perspective.

I am currently working on a true hybrid using grievers , the DE spec line and going through an iteration of weapons. I have tried this before DE and was never really satisified with the results as I found I could never get the proper balance to both Condition and Power damage to deem it a true hybrid. One always overwhelmed the other. The DE spec is very promising in that regard as you can make up for a lot of missing condition damage and power damage within the line itself with traits chosen. Ultimately this one reason I have found I tend to prefer DE over DD. It just opens more possibilities in builds IMO. The way I see it the dodges are more central to DD then the Malice is to DE.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

It seems that Deadeye D/P is being forced into the mold of the decap and +1 role when it is not made to do that role. If Deadeye can do exactly what the Daredevil can do, then what's the point of having a different Elite Spec - just keep DD then. Fortunately, Deadeye is not made to replace Daredevil. The Deadeye Elite Spec brings a whole different ars3nal to the table filling a completely different role.

[babazhook.6805]

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:It seems that Deadeye D/P is being forced into the mold of the decap and +1 role when it is not made to do that role. If Deadeye can do exactly what the Daredevil can do, then what's the point of having a different Elite Spec - just keep DD then. Fortunately, Deadeye is not made to replace Daredevil. The Deadeye Elite Spec brings a whole different ars3nal to the table filling a completely different role.

Again I do not PvP but is there the possibility that just the nature of the DE build suggests there can be a different role for it in that mode? Is there mindlock amongst the playerbase where the given role of each specific class so engrained and the player base so set on following that "proven" gamestyle , anything that tries to break that paradigm will simply not be accepted and the person trying to break the mold will fail because the others on the team will not go along?

[DeceiverX.8361]

It's just because of the nature of capture and hold that anything based on stealth-heavy play without a lot of active defenses will force the thief to be useless at doing anything except +1'ing.

DE does not fundamentally change the thief enough stylistically or functionally to allow the thief to sustain outside of stealth to justify it holding a point in comparison to Daredevil, and especially compared to other professions.

[Zacchary.6183]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:It seems that Deadeye D/P is being forced into the mold of the decap and +1 role when it is not made to do that role. If Deadeye can do exactly what the Daredevil can do, then what's the point of having a different Elite Spec - just keep DD then. Fortunately, Deadeye is not made to replace Daredevil. The Deadeye Elite Spec brings a whole different ars3nal to the table filling a completely different role.

Again I do not PvP but is there the possibility that just the nature of the DE build suggests there can be a different role for it in that mode? Is there mindlock amongst the playerbase where the given role of each specific class so engrained and the player base so set on following that "proven" gamestyle , anything that tries to break that paradigm will simply not be accepted and the person trying to break the mold will fail because the others on the team will not go along?

This is exactly it. The meta is often forced and I suspect that it has nothing to do with the other builds but instead those forcing it.

[Vornollo.5182]

Core Thief, Daredevil, Deadeye...None of them provides us with any tools to do anything in sPvP other than +1 and mobile rotations.If you want to do anything else in sPvP, sure you can try it with Core/DD/DE, but you're better off simply rolling to a different profession because whatever it is you're trying to accomplish. Another profession will do it better.

That's really the issue we're facing here.Elite Specializations are supposed to provide us with new and refreshing playstyles. What they have been doing for Thief though, is simply enhance what we already got.Daredevil enhanced our Mobility, Deadeye enhanced our Stealth (and Damage).That's very bluntly put, but that's what it comes down to.

Now because Stealth isn't nearly as useful in sPvP and mobility is (especially in the highly rotational based gameplay that a Thief actually still does better than any other profession). Add to that, that the extra Damage provided by Deadeye is largely negligible due to the very nature of what a quick +1 is, and Daredevil/Core already providing plenty of burst if you actually play the role right. That's why D/P Dash Daredevil and Core S/D Acrobatics Thief have been meta for sPvP, rather than Deadeye.

It has nothing to do with a forced meta... It's about roles being forced on us instead, because the "additional roles" that Elite Specs would be supposed to give, are simply not there. They've been building on what we could do and enhanced it (DE for Stealth, DD for Mobility).So let's hope the next Elite Spec turns us into a proper Bruiser, a Node Holder, a Support or heck, a proper Duelist again and make them on par to similar builds of other professions.But our existing Elites just don't bring anything new to the table to shake up the sPvP meta, simple as that. Sucks big time though.