1-Shot Soulbeast -- An example of the worst "balance"

shadowpass.4236 · August 4, 2018

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:Soul beast has too many condition defenses, which even surpasses the destroyer.> @"terrorshard.3854" said:
Soulbeast isn't very good. It is like a worse holosmith or spellbreaker with less sustain. This version of soulbeast is even worse than that.

Soul beast has too many condition defenses, which even surpasses the spellbreaker .

Aint no way.

vs.

Perhaps you were speaking of Druid. Careful where you toss the nerf agro.

In this respect, the soul beasts have surpassed the Druids.BearStance and SecondSkin are more effective than every skills of warrior.BearStance is most op that can remove candition from pulse and can not be removed.It almost means that it can't be hurt by condition in 6 seconds and its cooldown is very short . These two skills make conditioin damage lose the meaning of existence.In addition to this, the Beastmode provides additional condition protection.

If you honestly think bear stance and short uptimes of 33% reduced condition damage is better than 30+ seconds of resistance, that's pretty funny.

Bear stance is hot garbage. Second skin is a b tier trait.

ZeteCommander.4937 · August 4, 2018

@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:Soul beast has too many condition defenses, which even surpasses the destroyer.> @"terrorshard.3854" said:
Soulbeast isn't very good. It is like a worse holosmith or spellbreaker with less sustain. This version of soulbeast is even worse than that.

Soul beast has too many condition defenses, which even surpasses the spellbreaker .

Aint no way.

vs.

Perhaps you were speaking of Druid. Careful where you toss the nerf agro.

In this respect, the soul beasts have surpassed the Druids.BearStance and SecondSkin are more effective than every skills of warrior.BearStance is most op that can remove candition from pulse and can not be removed.It almost means that it can't be hurt by condition in 6 seconds and its cooldown is very short . These two skills make conditioin damage lose the meaning of existence.In addition to this, the Beastmode provides additional condition protection.

If you honestly think bear stance and short uptimes of 33% reduced condition damage is better than 30+ seconds of resistance, that's pretty funny.

Bear stance is hot garbage. Second skin is a b tier trait.

resistance can be remove .How do you prevent the Ranger from getting endless protection.Resistance does‘t directly remove condition but Bear stance can and it can‘t removed like resistance

MithranArkanere.8957 · August 4, 2018

Sooner or later Stealth will likely end up changed in a similar way to what they did in Heroes of the Storm. Like 1-2s actual invisibility and immunity to Revealed unless self-inclined, then past that partial visibility, more visible while moving.

Then there will be some whining from bad players who need the gimmick to get anything actually done, then people adapt and go on with their lives.

shadowpass.4236 · August 4, 2018

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:Soul beast has too many condition defenses, which even surpasses the destroyer.> @"terrorshard.3854" said:
Soulbeast isn't very good. It is like a worse holosmith or spellbreaker with less sustain. This version of soulbeast is even worse than that.

Soul beast has too many condition defenses, which even surpasses the spellbreaker .

Aint no way.

vs.

Perhaps you were speaking of Druid. Careful where you toss the nerf agro.

In this respect, the soul beasts have surpassed the Druids.BearStance and SecondSkin are more effective than every skills of warrior.BearStance is most op that can remove candition from pulse and can not be removed.It almost means that it can't be hurt by condition in 6 seconds and its cooldown is very short . These two skills make conditioin damage lose the meaning of existence.In addition to this, the Beastmode provides additional condition protection.

If you honestly think bear stance and short uptimes of 33% reduced condition damage is better than 30+ seconds of resistance, that's pretty funny.

Bear stance is hot garbage. Second skin is a b tier trait.

resistance can be remove .How do you prevent the Ranger from getting endless protection.Resistance does‘t directly remove condition,Bear stance can

You're just demonstrating a poor understanding of the game.

Resistance can be removed but warrior has multiple, short cooldown sources of it. Resistance doesn't need to remove the conditions because it grants immunity to them.

You can try to prolong the duration of condition, but this is useless for condition remove

You don't need to remove the conditions if you're immune to them.

If they don't affect you, there's no reason nor need to cleanse them.Resistance 's easy to remove.If can't remove it , It is still possible to prolong the time of condition over than resistance，All solutions are null and void for the soul beast.Besides, the soul beast has more stealth and evade than the warrior.It is more difficult to hit ranger than the warrior

Protection is easy to remove as well.

You play mesmer, correct? Mesmers hard counter rangers so if you're having trouble, you're doing something wrong.

ZeteCommander.4937 · August 4, 2018

@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:Soul beast has too many condition defenses, which even surpasses the destroyer.> @"terrorshard.3854" said:
Soulbeast isn't very good. It is like a worse holosmith or spellbreaker with less sustain. This version of soulbeast is even worse than that.

Soul beast has too many condition defenses, which even surpasses the spellbreaker .

Aint no way.

vs.

Perhaps you were speaking of Druid. Careful where you toss the nerf agro.

In this respect, the soul beasts have surpassed the Druids.BearStance and SecondSkin are more effective than every skills of warrior.BearStance is most op that can remove candition from pulse and can not be removed.It almost means that it can't be hurt by condition in 6 seconds and its cooldown is very short . These two skills make conditioin damage lose the meaning of existence.In addition to this, the Beastmode provides additional condition protection.

If you honestly think bear stance and short uptimes of 33% reduced condition damage is better than 30+ seconds of resistance, that's pretty funny.

Bear stance is hot garbage. Second skin is a b tier trait.

resistance can be remove .How do you prevent the Ranger from getting endless protection.Resistance does‘t directly remove condition,Bear stance can

You're just demonstrating a poor understanding of the game.

Resistance can be removed but warrior has multiple, short cooldown sources of it. Resistance doesn't need to remove the conditions because it grants immunity to them.

You can try to prolong the duration of condition, but this is useless for condition remove

You don't need to remove the conditions if you're immune to them.

If they don't affect you, there's no reason nor need to cleanse them.Resistance 's easy to remove.If can't remove it , It is still possible to prolong the time of condition over than resistance，All solutions are null and void for the soul beast.Besides, the soul beast has more stealth and evade than the warrior.It is more difficult to hit ranger than the warrior

Protection is easy to remove as well.

You play mesmer, correct? Mesmers hard counter rangers so if you're having trouble, you're doing something wrong.

Protection is easy to get.especially for the Ranger.You don't need to do meaningless guessworkI play a lot of profession,ranger has the most obvious restraint on any condition build .The soul beast is the easiest way to againt any condition build.I suggest you try to use other professional of condition build duel with soul beast to experience that how unfair

Trevor Boyer.6524 · August 4, 2018

From the mythical stories I am reading about Soulbeasts in this thread, here is what I gather:

All Soulbeasts are 1-shot builds.
Soulbeasts are capable of running full pve DPS 1-shot builds, while maintaining 100% protection uptime.
The 100% protection uptime offers a permanent -33% damage from conditions.
If the protection gets removed it's ok because Bear Stance already creates invulnerability to conditions.
Full pve DPS 1-shot Soulbeast builds have transcended the defenses of a Bunker Druid.
All Soulbeasts have so much stealth uptime that it is difficult to ever know where they are at.

Hell of a build structure. Strange how Soulbeast was somehow left out of the meta listing this season.

Vagrant.7206 · August 4, 2018

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:From the mythical stories I am reading about Soulbeasts in this thread, here is what I gather:
All Soulbeasts are 1-shot builds.
Soulbeasts are capable of running full pve DPS 1-shot builds, while maintaining 100% protection uptime.
The 100% protection uptime offers a permanent -33% damage from conditions.
If the protection gets removed it's ok because Bear Stance already creates invulnerability to conditions.
Full pve DPS 1-shot Soulbeast builds have transcended the defenses of a Bunker Druid.
All Soulbeasts have so much stealth uptime that it is difficult to ever know where they are at.
Hell of a build structure. Strange how Soulbeast was somehow left out of the meta listing this season.

I don't believe in any of that.

I just want fringe cases like those that happened to me in the original post to not happen. It's a bad build to play competitively, to be sure, but it's extremely disheartening to get hit by it. I can only imagine how disheartening/disappointing it would be to somebody who doesn't know what's going on.

shadowpass.4236 · August 4, 2018

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@ZeteCommander.4937 said:Soul beast has too many condition defenses, which even surpasses the destroyer.> @"terrorshard.3854" said:
Soulbeast isn't very good. It is like a worse holosmith or spellbreaker with less sustain. This version of soulbeast is even worse than that.

Soul beast has too many condition defenses, which even surpasses the spellbreaker .

Aint no way.

vs.

Perhaps you were speaking of Druid. Careful where you toss the nerf agro.

In this respect, the soul beasts have surpassed the Druids.BearStance and SecondSkin are more effective than every skills of warrior.BearStance is most op that can remove candition from pulse and can not be removed.It almost means that it can't be hurt by condition in 6 seconds and its cooldown is very short . These two skills make conditioin damage lose the meaning of existence.In addition to this, the Beastmode provides additional condition protection.

If you honestly think bear stance and short uptimes of 33% reduced condition damage is better than 30+ seconds of resistance, that's pretty funny.

Bear stance is hot garbage. Second skin is a b tier trait.

resistance can be remove .How do you prevent the Ranger from getting endless protection.Resistance does‘t directly remove condition,Bear stance can

You're just demonstrating a poor understanding of the game.

Resistance can be removed but warrior has multiple, short cooldown sources of it. Resistance doesn't need to remove the conditions because it grants immunity to them.

You can try to prolong the duration of condition, but this is useless for condition remove

You don't need to remove the conditions if you're immune to them.

If they don't affect you, there's no reason nor need to cleanse them.Resistance 's easy to remove.If can't remove it , It is still possible to prolong the time of condition over than resistance，All solutions are null and void for the soul beast.Besides, the soul beast has more stealth and evade than the warrior.It is more difficult to hit ranger than the warrior

Protection is easy to remove as well.

You play mesmer, correct? Mesmers hard counter rangers so if you're having trouble, you're doing something wrong.

Protection is easy to get.especially for the Ranger.You don't need to do meaningless guessworkI play a lot of profession,ranger has the most obvious restraint on any condition build .The soul beast is the easiest way to againt any condition build.I suggest you try to use other professional of condition build duel with soul beast to experience that how unfair

And resistance is easy to get especially for warrior.

I play every class. Ranger has most of their condition removal tied to their healing skill. Once they pop it, burst.

urdriel.8496 · August 4, 2018

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:Soul beast has too many condition defenses, which even surpasses the destroyer.> @terrorshard.3854 said:
Soulbeast isn't very good. It is like a worse holosmith or spellbreaker with less sustain. This version of soulbeast is even worse than that.

Soul beast has too many condition defenses, which even surpasses the spellbreaker .

you cant one shot people if you use defensive traitlines..... you have to choose between high damage or condi/phy defenses, you cant have both.

Arcaedus.7290 · August 4, 2018

@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@"suffish.4150" said:Leave oneshot soulbeast as it is. It’s a total trash build for overall play, even something like gunflame warr is more useful, but it’s so much fun to troll around with and make people angry. Would be a shame if those 30k worldly impacts cease to be possible in pvp.

This is essentially two good reasons to eradicate the build. Just because it's not effective overall doesn't make the 1-shot capabilities acceptable. If a build exists, is not effective or useful in any of the three game modes and is really only capable of causing distress to players fighting against it, it just embodies griefing/trolling, particularly against newer or less experienced players. Ask yourselves, should this really be an option in the game?

so if a build is fun but utterly useless then it shouldn't exist?did I read that right?

or is it if a build causea distress to a player then it should be deleted? if thats the case, please delete holo

It's not fun, unless your idea of fun is consistently losing but trolling players while doing so. If this is your idea of fun, then you absolutely shouldn't be catered to.

It's not fun for you is what you're saying.

Playing high risk high rewards is extremely fun to me and if dying in a PvP game really upsets you, then the issues don't lie within the builds.

We've already established that it's not high rewards though. If "high rewards" for you is defined as getting 1-shot kills but costing your team mates the game (because the build is overall not very effective) then that means you prioritize frustrating players rather than winning. Once more: this kind of playstyle can go die in a gutter and should not be catered to.

Either way, the conclusion is that it should be nerfed. One-hit KOs have no place in this game and never should.

shadowpass.4236 · August 4, 2018

@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@"suffish.4150" said:Leave oneshot soulbeast as it is. It’s a total trash build for overall play, even something like gunflame warr is more useful, but it’s so much fun to troll around with and make people angry. Would be a shame if those 30k worldly impacts cease to be possible in pvp.

This is essentially two good reasons to eradicate the build. Just because it's not effective overall doesn't make the 1-shot capabilities acceptable. If a build exists, is not effective or useful in any of the three game modes and is really only capable of causing distress to players fighting against it, it just embodies griefing/trolling, particularly against newer or less experienced players. Ask yourselves, should this really be an option in the game?

so if a build is fun but utterly useless then it shouldn't exist?did I read that right?

or is it if a build causea distress to a player then it should be deleted? if thats the case, please delete holo

It's not fun, unless your idea of fun is consistently losing but trolling players while doing so. If this is your idea of fun, then you absolutely shouldn't be catered to.

It's not fun for you is what you're saying.

Playing high risk high rewards is extremely fun to me and if dying in a PvP game really upsets you, then the issues don't lie within the builds.

We've already established that it's not high rewards though. If "high rewards" for you is defined as getting 1-shot kills but costing your team mates the game (because the build is overall not very effective) then that means you prioritize frustrating players rather than winning. Once more: this kind of playstyle can go die in a gutter and should not be catered to.

Either way, the conclusion is that it should be nerfed. One-hit KOs have no place in this game and never should.

Right. However there are much more viable and stronger alternatives if someone wanted to run a 1 shot build.

Also, every class in the game has these sorts of builds. Ranger, while it does a lot of damage, is also one of the squishiest as you end up dedicating most of your weapon skills and all of your traits and utilities to a single attack that can be easily avoided.

Unkillable 1v1 bunkers also shouldn't be a thing but hey, firebrands are a thing.

Arcaedus.7290 · August 4, 2018

@shadowpass.4236 said:
Right. However there are much more viable and stronger alternatives if someone wanted to run a 1 shot build.
Also, every class in the game has these sorts of builds. Ranger, while it does a lot of damage, is also one of the squishiest as you end up dedicating most of your weapon skills and all of your traits and utilities to a single attack that can be easily avoided.
Unkillable 1v1 bunkers also shouldn't be a thing but hey, firebrands are a thing.

People who are defending this 1-hit KO nonsense are either delusional, or afraid that proposed nerfs to this build will harm other builds, which is a reasonable worry. In reality, simple, minor nerfs are needed. Here is just one example of two tandem nerfs that could do the job, easily, without harming other builds:

Your pet does not receive Attack of Opportunity bonus from maul if you don't strike a target (honestly this is how it should have been in the first place)
Worldly Impact inflicts self-reveal for 1 second.

This wouldn't stop the potential of WI from getting enormous hits, but it would stop 30k+ strikes out of stealth without first entering combat. There are other possibilities like lowering damage modifiers you receive when merged with pet, or stopping certain modifiers from stacking but those would be more complicated and may require a game-wide change which I don't think the community would be a fan of.

Vagrant.7206 · August 4, 2018

@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
Right. However there are much more viable and stronger alternatives if someone wanted to run a 1 shot build.
Also, every class in the game has these sorts of builds. Ranger, while it does a lot of damage, is also one of the squishiest as you end up dedicating most of your weapon skills and all of your traits and utilities to a single attack that can be easily avoided.
Unkillable 1v1 bunkers also shouldn't be a thing but hey, firebrands are a thing.

People who are defending this 1-hit KO nonsense are either delusional, or afraid that proposed nerfs to this build will harm other builds, which is a reasonable worry. In reality, simple, minor nerfs are needed. Here is just one example of two tandem nerfs that could do the job, easily, without harming other builds:

Your pet does not receive Attack of Opportunity bonus from maul if you don't strike a target (honestly this is how it should have been in the first place)
Worldly Impact inflicts self-reveal for 1 second.

This wouldn't stop the potential of WI from getting enormous hits, but it would stop 30k+ strikes out of stealth without first entering combat. There are other possibilities like lowering damage modifiers you receive when merged with pet, or stopping certain modifiers from stacking but those would be more complicated and may require a game-wide change which I don't think the community would be a fan of.

There's a third option -- add a hard cap on the amount of damage any single hit can do in PvP, with exceptions for skills that the devs explicitly want to breach that limit.

shadowpass.4236 · August 4, 2018

@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
Right. However there are much more viable and stronger alternatives if someone wanted to run a 1 shot build.
Also, every class in the game has these sorts of builds. Ranger, while it does a lot of damage, is also one of the squishiest as you end up dedicating most of your weapon skills and all of your traits and utilities to a single attack that can be easily avoided.
Unkillable 1v1 bunkers also shouldn't be a thing but hey, firebrands are a thing.

People who are defending this 1-hit KO nonsense are either delusional, or afraid that proposed nerfs to this build will harm other builds, which is a reasonable worry. In reality, simple, minor nerfs are needed. Here is just one example of two tandem nerfs that could do the job, easily, without harming other builds:

Your pet does not receive Attack of Opportunity bonus from maul if you don't strike a target (honestly this is how it should have been in the first place)
Worldly Impact inflicts self-reveal for 1 second.

This wouldn't stop the potential of WI from getting enormous hits, but it would stop 30k+ strikes out of stealth without first entering combat. There are other possibilities like lowering damage modifiers you receive when merged with pet, or stopping certain modifiers from stacking but those would be more complicated and may require a game-wide change which I don't think the community would be a fan of.

Afraid of harming other builds. There are stronger 1 shot builds than soulbeast. Until those get nerfed, I don't think soulbeast should be touched.

People are acting like this soulbeast build is viable and more of an issue than mantra mes or deadeye. This isn't the case.

Your first suggested change hurts every other soulbeast build except the 1 shot. They should only implement the second if it applied to all attacks on every class from stealth.

Trevor Boyer.6524 · August 4, 2018

@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
Right. However there are much more viable and stronger alternatives if someone wanted to run a 1 shot build.
Also, every class in the game has these sorts of builds. Ranger, while it does a lot of damage, is also one of the squishiest as you end up dedicating most of your weapon skills and all of your traits and utilities to a single attack that can be easily avoided.
Unkillable 1v1 bunkers also shouldn't be a thing but hey, firebrands are a thing.

People who are defending this 1-hit KO nonsense are either delusional, or afraid that proposed nerfs to this build will harm other builds, which is a reasonable worry. In reality, simple, minor nerfs are needed. Here is just one example of two tandem nerfs that could do the job, easily, without harming other builds:

Your pet does not receive Attack of Opportunity bonus from maul if you don't strike a target (honestly this is how it should have been in the first place)
Worldly Impact inflicts self-reveal for 1 second.

This wouldn't stop the potential of WI from getting enormous hits, but it would stop 30k+ strikes out of stealth without first entering combat. There are other possibilities like lowering damage modifiers you receive when merged with pet, or stopping certain modifiers from stacking but those would be more complicated and may require a game-wide change which I don't think the community would be a fan of.

Ok seriously, I already went over this. Here are nerfs that will end the 1-shot legend of the harsh master drama epidemic, that won't harm other ranger builds:

Attack of Opportunity on Maul should not work unless it hits a target.
Moment of Clarity should be nerfed from 50% to 25%
Remorseless could use 25% to around 15%
Sic'Em needs to function with +20% bonus in pvp and wvw, and the 2000 range 6s reveal that cannot be dodged or blocked may need to be reviewed.

shadowpass.4236 · August 4, 2018

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
Right. However there are much more viable and stronger alternatives if someone wanted to run a 1 shot build.
Also, every class in the game has these sorts of builds. Ranger, while it does a lot of damage, is also one of the squishiest as you end up dedicating most of your weapon skills and all of your traits and utilities to a single attack that can be easily avoided.
Unkillable 1v1 bunkers also shouldn't be a thing but hey, firebrands are a thing.

People who are defending this 1-hit KO nonsense are either delusional, or afraid that proposed nerfs to this build will harm other builds, which is a reasonable worry. In reality, simple, minor nerfs are needed. Here is just one example of two tandem nerfs that could do the job, easily, without harming other builds:

Your pet does not receive Attack of Opportunity bonus from maul if you don't strike a target (honestly this is how it should have been in the first place)
Worldly Impact inflicts self-reveal for 1 second.

This wouldn't stop the potential of WI from getting enormous hits, but it would stop 30k+ strikes out of stealth without first entering combat. There are other possibilities like lowering damage modifiers you receive when merged with pet, or stopping certain modifiers from stacking but those would be more complicated and may require a game-wide change which I don't think the community would be a fan of.

Ok seriously, I already went over this. Here are nerfs that will end the 1-shot legend of the harsh master drama epidemic, that won't harm other ranger builds:

Attack of Opportunity on Maul should not work unless it hits a target.
Moment of Clarity should be nerfed from 50% to 25%
Remorseless could use 25% to around 15%
Sic'Em needs to function with +20% bonus in pvp and wvw, and the 2000 range 6s reveal that cannot be dodged or blocked may need to be reviewed.

Actually this hurts core ranger pretty badly.

I run marksmanship, remorseless, MoC, and sic em with greatsword. These changes would weaken my build significantly even though core ranger isn't an issue.

Crab Fear.1624 · August 4, 2018

I like fighting a soulbeast on thief. its not a free win for either of us. one f-up from either side and we are done. soul beast is still the most balanced out of PoF in my book.

sephiroth.4217 · August 5, 2018

@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@"suffish.4150" said:Leave oneshot soulbeast as it is. It’s a total trash build for overall play, even something like gunflame warr is more useful, but it’s so much fun to troll around with and make people angry. Would be a shame if those 30k worldly impacts cease to be possible in pvp.

This is essentially two good reasons to eradicate the build. Just because it's not effective overall doesn't make the 1-shot capabilities acceptable. If a build exists, is not effective or useful in any of the three game modes and is really only capable of causing distress to players fighting against it, it just embodies griefing/trolling, particularly against newer or less experienced players. Ask yourselves, should this really be an option in the game?

so if a build is fun but utterly useless then it shouldn't exist?did I read that right?

or is it if a build causea distress to a player then it should be deleted? if thats the case, please delete holo

It's not fun, unless your idea of fun is consistently losing but trolling players while doing so. If this is your idea of fun, then you absolutely shouldn't be catered to.

It's not fun for you is what you're saying.

Playing high risk high rewards is extremely fun to me and if dying in a PvP game really upsets you, then the issues don't lie within the builds.

We've already established that it's not high rewards though. If "high rewards" for you is defined as getting 1-shot kills but costing your team mates the game (because the build is overall not very effective) then that means you prioritize frustrating players rather than winning. Once more: this kind of playstyle can go die in a gutter and should not be catered to.

Either way, the conclusion is that it should be nerfed. One-hit KOs have no place in this game and never should.

1 shot builds are really fun because it requires the player to actually know his shit and be good with it, it's also the most skillful builds for dueling because it comes down to who can hit who first, the thrill of that alone is amazing... There's no condi bomb after condi bomb with constant cleansing, there's no constant healing in the fight or wasting time on nodes, no stealth spam either because fights don't last long enough.... It's fun.

But these builds wouldn't exist if team queue was around.. these builds are good at finding the one stray player and knocking them out quick, and that was nearly impossible to do under team queue... The game gave us all 1 important tactic, divide and conquer, the game itself has divided us into solo queue and most players won't even use communication so all that's left to do is conquer.

These builds shouldn't go die in a gutter because you don't enjoy it, that's your personal opinion and from my personal experience, it's not hard to make a 1 shot build on the enemy team fold quick and playing the 1 shot build, other players can make me fold quick.

The players that have an issue with these builds are also the same players that don't dodge and say "warrior stealthed that means he is hacking"

Trevor Boyer.6524 · August 5, 2018

@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
Right. However there are much more viable and stronger alternatives if someone wanted to run a 1 shot build.
Also, every class in the game has these sorts of builds. Ranger, while it does a lot of damage, is also one of the squishiest as you end up dedicating most of your weapon skills and all of your traits and utilities to a single attack that can be easily avoided.
Unkillable 1v1 bunkers also shouldn't be a thing but hey, firebrands are a thing.

People who are defending this 1-hit KO nonsense are either delusional, or afraid that proposed nerfs to this build will harm other builds, which is a reasonable worry. In reality, simple, minor nerfs are needed. Here is just one example of two tandem nerfs that could do the job, easily, without harming other builds:

Your pet does not receive Attack of Opportunity bonus from maul if you don't strike a target (honestly this is how it should have been in the first place)
Worldly Impact inflicts self-reveal for 1 second.

This wouldn't stop the potential of WI from getting enormous hits, but it would stop 30k+ strikes out of stealth without first entering combat. There are other possibilities like lowering damage modifiers you receive when merged with pet, or stopping certain modifiers from stacking but those would be more complicated and may require a game-wide change which I don't think the community would be a fan of.

Ok seriously, I already went over this. Here are nerfs that will end the 1-shot legend of the harsh master drama epidemic, that won't harm other ranger builds:

Attack of Opportunity on Maul should not work unless it hits a target.
Moment of Clarity should be nerfed from 50% to 25%
Remorseless could use 25% to around 15%
Sic'Em needs to function with +20% bonus in pvp and wvw, and the 2000 range 6s reveal that cannot be dodged or blocked may need to be reviewed.

Actually this hurts core ranger pretty badly.

I run marksmanship, remorseless, MoC, and sic em with greatsword. These changes would weaken my build significantly even though core ranger isn't an issue.

How would you say to realistically fix the power creep on Soulbeast then? I mean I'm seriously curious to see what actual other Ranger mains say.

On one hand, it's debatable on if it EVEN needs fixing, considering that Soulbeast although viable, isn't exactly as potent as these players seem to believe it is when we are talking final round of ATs, stacked with Mes/Rev/Holo/Thief play. Against higher tier opponents, you need to be a bit of a special Ranger player to even make Soulbeast competitive. On the other hand, I do agree on general principle that no single skill should be able to land a 30k+ single strike. The general principle I am referring to is: "We as the community need to speak out strongly towards such power creep, least we lead the devs to believe we are ok with it." In my opinion, what concerns me isn't that Soulbeast is necessarily a problem at all actually, it's more of how this is the path that Arenanet is taking. Do we want to see this kind of power creep to other classes down the road? I dunno, it could be interesting or it could be bad.

shadowpass.4236 · August 5, 2018

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
Right. However there are much more viable and stronger alternatives if someone wanted to run a 1 shot build.
Also, every class in the game has these sorts of builds. Ranger, while it does a lot of damage, is also one of the squishiest as you end up dedicating most of your weapon skills and all of your traits and utilities to a single attack that can be easily avoided.
Unkillable 1v1 bunkers also shouldn't be a thing but hey, firebrands are a thing.

People who are defending this 1-hit KO nonsense are either delusional, or afraid that proposed nerfs to this build will harm other builds, which is a reasonable worry. In reality, simple, minor nerfs are needed. Here is just one example of two tandem nerfs that could do the job, easily, without harming other builds:

Your pet does not receive Attack of Opportunity bonus from maul if you don't strike a target (honestly this is how it should have been in the first place)
Worldly Impact inflicts self-reveal for 1 second.

This wouldn't stop the potential of WI from getting enormous hits, but it would stop 30k+ strikes out of stealth without first entering combat. There are other possibilities like lowering damage modifiers you receive when merged with pet, or stopping certain modifiers from stacking but those would be more complicated and may require a game-wide change which I don't think the community would be a fan of.

Ok seriously, I already went over this. Here are nerfs that will end the 1-shot legend of the harsh master drama epidemic, that won't harm other ranger builds:

Attack of Opportunity on Maul should not work unless it hits a target.
Moment of Clarity should be nerfed from 50% to 25%
Remorseless could use 25% to around 15%
Sic'Em needs to function with +20% bonus in pvp and wvw, and the 2000 range 6s reveal that cannot be dodged or blocked may need to be reviewed.

Actually this hurts core ranger pretty badly.

I run marksmanship, remorseless, MoC, and sic em with greatsword. These changes would weaken my build significantly even though core ranger isn't an issue.

How would you say to realistically fix the power creep on Soulbeast then? I mean I'm seriously curious to see what actual other Ranger mains say.

On one hand, it's debatable on if it EVEN needs fixing, considering that Soulbeast although viable, isn't exactly as potent as these players seem to believe it is when we are talking final round of ATs, stacked with Mes/Rev/Holo/Thief play. Against higher tier opponents, you need to be a bit of a special Ranger player to even make Soulbeast competitive. On the other hand, I do agree on general principle that no single skill should be able to land a 30k+ single strike. The general principle I am referring to is: "We as the community need to speak out strongly towards such power creep, least we lead the devs to believe we are ok with it." In my opinion, what concerns me isn't that Soulbeast is necessarily a problem at all actually, it's more of how this is the path that Arenanet is taking. Do we want to see this kind of power creep to other classes down the road? I dunno, it could be interesting or it could be bad.

Yeah I gotcha. I'm actually not sure. I've thought about how to solve the issue before but I need more time.

The problem is, none of these mechanics are an issue on their own. The "problem" arises when you stack ALL of them at the same time. I agree, 30k on a single skill is excessive. However, conceptually, it is no different than a 20k hit on a single skill. Either one will 1 shot you.

The extra damage is also counterbalanced by the fact that the glass cannon soulbeast build is also significantly worse than other one shot builds. Not only is Worldly Impact harder to hit, but the build severely lacks in every other department as well.

Ideally, any nerfs to this build should not affect ANY other ranger build. But again, individually, none of the parts that make this work are overpowered on their own. So nerfing any of them will unintentionally negatively impact a variety of builds that aren't a problem.

To be honest, I think the best solution is to leave it in the game. This build has a ton of damage, but that's it. Aside from a 30k burst on a single, easy-to-avoid skill, the build is garbage and doesn't do anything else.

It's worth noting that every class can do similar damage as well. While some of them are just as trash as this soulbeast build, some are actually viable in ranked play. If anything, those need to be addressed first.

Bazsi.2734 · August 5, 2018

@Arcaedus.7290 said:It's not fun... blablabla ...If this is your idea of fun, then you absolutely shouldn't be catered to.

Wow this thread is something. @"sephiroth.4217" you really made him dig a deep one. "People who like different things then me shouldn't get to have fun!"This is absolutely amazing. Keep the thread going guys.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:...that means you prioritize frustrating players rather than winning. Once more: this kind of playstyle can go die in a gutter and should not be catered to.

Makes sense, I mean... after getting rid of oneshot SB, how could I possibly frustrate the other players? I'd be totally out of options.Also nice double down on that tolerant statement!

If we were to look at the whole thread, it makes so much more sense: "Yeah it's useless, but nerf it!"I agree, useless builds in general need nerfs. Winning a match, but getting oneshot from stealth once or twice is an unthinkable hell no one should have to endure.

Vagrant.7206 · August 5, 2018

@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
Right. However there are much more viable and stronger alternatives if someone wanted to run a 1 shot build.
Also, every class in the game has these sorts of builds. Ranger, while it does a lot of damage, is also one of the squishiest as you end up dedicating most of your weapon skills and all of your traits and utilities to a single attack that can be easily avoided.
Unkillable 1v1 bunkers also shouldn't be a thing but hey, firebrands are a thing.

People who are defending this 1-hit KO nonsense are either delusional, or afraid that proposed nerfs to this build will harm other builds, which is a reasonable worry. In reality, simple, minor nerfs are needed. Here is just one example of two tandem nerfs that could do the job, easily, without harming other builds:

Your pet does not receive Attack of Opportunity bonus from maul if you don't strike a target (honestly this is how it should have been in the first place)
Worldly Impact inflicts self-reveal for 1 second.

This wouldn't stop the potential of WI from getting enormous hits, but it would stop 30k+ strikes out of stealth without first entering combat. There are other possibilities like lowering damage modifiers you receive when merged with pet, or stopping certain modifiers from stacking but those would be more complicated and may require a game-wide change which I don't think the community would be a fan of.

Ok seriously, I already went over this. Here are nerfs that will end the 1-shot legend of the harsh master drama epidemic, that won't harm other ranger builds:

Attack of Opportunity on Maul should not work unless it hits a target.
Moment of Clarity should be nerfed from 50% to 25%
Remorseless could use 25% to around 15%
Sic'Em needs to function with +20% bonus in pvp and wvw, and the 2000 range 6s reveal that cannot be dodged or blocked may need to be reviewed.

Actually this hurts core ranger pretty badly.

I run marksmanship, remorseless, MoC, and sic em with greatsword. These changes would weaken my build significantly even though core ranger isn't an issue.

How would you say to realistically fix the power creep on Soulbeast then? I mean I'm seriously curious to see what actual other Ranger mains say.

On one hand, it's debatable on if it EVEN needs fixing, considering that Soulbeast although viable, isn't exactly as potent as these players seem to believe it is when we are talking final round of ATs, stacked with Mes/Rev/Holo/Thief play. Against higher tier opponents, you need to be a bit of a special Ranger player to even make Soulbeast competitive. On the other hand, I do agree on general principle that no single skill should be able to land a 30k+ single strike. The general principle I am referring to is: "We as the community need to speak out strongly towards such power creep, least we lead the devs to believe we are ok with it." In my opinion, what concerns me isn't that Soulbeast is necessarily a problem at all actually, it's more of how this is the path that Arenanet is taking. Do we want to see this kind of power creep to other classes down the road? I dunno, it could be interesting or it could be bad.

It's worth noting that every class can do similar damage as well. While some of them are just as trash as this soulbeast build, some are actually viable in ranked play. If anything, those need to be addressed first.

Not in a single hit from stealth though. That's the problem. Most other "one-shot" builds actually hit you numerous times and give you at least a fraction of a second to dodge, even if it was done from stealth or through a wall (IE Rev).

Kageseigi.2150 · August 5, 2018

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
Sic'Em needs to function with +20% bonus in pvp and wvw, and the 2000 range 6s reveal that cannot be dodged or blocked may need to be reviewed.

Would it help to add a self-Reveal to Sic'Em that would only affect the pet unless melded? If melded, it would also affect the Ranger?

shadowpass.4236 · August 5, 2018

@Vagrant.7206 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Arcaedus.7290 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
Right. However there are much more viable and stronger alternatives if someone wanted to run a 1 shot build.
Also, every class in the game has these sorts of builds. Ranger, while it does a lot of damage, is also one of the squishiest as you end up dedicating most of your weapon skills and all of your traits and utilities to a single attack that can be easily avoided.
Unkillable 1v1 bunkers also shouldn't be a thing but hey, firebrands are a thing.

People who are defending this 1-hit KO nonsense are either delusional, or afraid that proposed nerfs to this build will harm other builds, which is a reasonable worry. In reality, simple, minor nerfs are needed. Here is just one example of two tandem nerfs that could do the job, easily, without harming other builds:

Your pet does not receive Attack of Opportunity bonus from maul if you don't strike a target (honestly this is how it should have been in the first place)
Worldly Impact inflicts self-reveal for 1 second.

This wouldn't stop the potential of WI from getting enormous hits, but it would stop 30k+ strikes out of stealth without first entering combat. There are other possibilities like lowering damage modifiers you receive when merged with pet, or stopping certain modifiers from stacking but those would be more complicated and may require a game-wide change which I don't think the community would be a fan of.

Ok seriously, I already went over this. Here are nerfs that will end the 1-shot legend of the harsh master drama epidemic, that won't harm other ranger builds:

Attack of Opportunity on Maul should not work unless it hits a target.
Moment of Clarity should be nerfed from 50% to 25%
Remorseless could use 25% to around 15%
Sic'Em needs to function with +20% bonus in pvp and wvw, and the 2000 range 6s reveal that cannot be dodged or blocked may need to be reviewed.

Actually this hurts core ranger pretty badly.

I run marksmanship, remorseless, MoC, and sic em with greatsword. These changes would weaken my build significantly even though core ranger isn't an issue.

How would you say to realistically fix the power creep on Soulbeast then? I mean I'm seriously curious to see what actual other Ranger mains say.

On one hand, it's debatable on if it EVEN needs fixing, considering that Soulbeast although viable, isn't exactly as potent as these players seem to believe it is when we are talking final round of ATs, stacked with Mes/Rev/Holo/Thief play. Against higher tier opponents, you need to be a bit of a special Ranger player to even make Soulbeast competitive. On the other hand, I do agree on general principle that no single skill should be able to land a 30k+ single strike. The general principle I am referring to is: "We as the community need to speak out strongly towards such power creep, least we lead the devs to believe we are ok with it." In my opinion, what concerns me isn't that Soulbeast is necessarily a problem at all actually, it's more of how this is the path that Arenanet is taking. Do we want to see this kind of power creep to other classes down the road? I dunno, it could be interesting or it could be bad.

It's worth noting that every class can do similar damage as well. While some of them are just as trash as this soulbeast build, some are actually viable in ranked play. If anything, those need to be addressed first.

Not in a single hit from stealth though. That's the problem. Most other "one-shot" builds actually hit you numerous times and give you at least a fraction of a second to dodge, even if it was done from stealth or through a wall (IE Rev).

Sure. But it doesn't change the fact that people are asking to nerf a trash tier build that isn't viable in ranked play.

Whatever comes WILL harm other ranger builds that aren't an issue.

shadowpass.4236 · August 5, 2018

@Kageseigi.2150 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
Sic'Em needs to function with +20% bonus in pvp and wvw, and the 2000 range 6s reveal that cannot be dodged or blocked may need to be reviewed.

Would it help to add a self-Reveal to Sic'Em that would only affect the pet unless melded? If melded, it would also affect the Ranger?

All of these changes would hurt the build in question. However they (like yours) would also hurt builds that should be left alone.

1-Shot Soulbeast -- An example of the worst "balance"

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