Raiding is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the GW2 community, if it hasn't already

[slashlizardy.9167]

For the pro argument for raiding, it added a diversionary content after being done with HoT masteries and it showed to anet that there was interest in legendary armor. For the cons, it further broke up the teamwork that HoT did by having so much to do and so many varied places that each of the guildees wished to do to get items done off their checklists. When legendary armor was announced it said that a part of the rewards would require raiding. Now I took that to mean similar to gen 1 weapons and requiring a small part of WvW required, so therefore a small part of raiding would be required. I don't have the time to dedicate the raiding part required for legendary armor so the raiding leggie armor is off the table at the moment. So for a small part of the community, it gave them an outlet and kept people playing for something while whatever glamour the HoT expac had kept fading and fading. People will reward content they like, so yes even some raiders will contribute to the game, notably woodytaters had been mentioned as a whale, now he is more than a raider, he also earns some real life money due to being a partner, so he definitely enjoys the game. So while raiding was introduced as a part of HoT and HoT did alot to break up the community, raiding by itself did not hurt the game and gave some a reason to stay and contribute, so it's a wash. As far as the Lair of the Snowmen, I did complete it once the very first afternoon, but since it did not give a raid mastery I did not go back.

[Vaelen.5294]

The main problem with GW2 is the steep learning curve for raids. Most MMOs have a normal mode raid for newbies who are learning and a hard mode raid for hardcore experienced raiders, GW2 has nothing of the sort. Just look at how Elder Scrolls Online does it well, in those 12 man dungeons it doesn't take huge DPS numbers or experienced players to successfully complete normal runs, only in veteran mode is high DPS and experience required. GW2 just needs an easy mode raid level so that newer players can learn the mechanics without wiping the group.

[SunTzu.4513]

GW2 just needs an easy mode raid level so that newer players can learn the mechanics without wiping the group.

I personaly don't think an normal/hard mode system will change the raid requirements for pugs. Only an autofill LFR like the WoW one will do this as an super easy acess for those who actually struggling to get into groups. In every other mmo game i played wich has those different difficultys even in the normal mode pugs has strict requirements. People in PUG's always try to get the players with killproof, bis gear, exp etc. They don't want to do the progressing way of play every time they set up an LFG for a raid. Also in GW2 plenty of learning Raid guilds and communitys exists. Also a lot of guilds are helping seriously intersted players to get into raiding if they are willing to invest time and effort.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Vaelen.5294 said:The main problem with GW2 is the steep learning curve for raids. Most MMOs have a normal mode raid for newbies who are learning and a hard mode raid for hardcore experienced raiders, GW2 has nothing of the sort. Just look at how Elder Scrolls Online does it well, in those 12 man dungeons it doesn't take huge DPS numbers or experienced players to successfully complete normal runs, only in veteran mode is high DPS and experience required. GW2 just needs an easy mode raid level so that newer players can learn the mechanics without wiping the group.

But most of the gw2 raids are easy and dont require high dps. Mechanics or failing them kills players in raids. Some mechanics can Be hard yes, but most raids are really noob friendly for dps players.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Vaelen.5294" said:The main problem with GW2 is the steep learning curve for raids. Most MMOs have a normal mode raid for newbies who are learning and a hard mode raid for hardcore experienced raiders, GW2 has nothing of the sort. Just look at how Elder Scrolls Online does it well, in those 12 man dungeons it doesn't take huge DPS numbers or experienced players to successfully complete normal runs, only in veteran mode is high DPS and experience required. GW2 just needs an easy mode raid level so that newer players can learn the mechanics without wiping the group.

To avoid repeating the same arguments and turn this thread into that other one, you can find an 86-page thread on that subject here:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18677/do-raids-need-easy-normal-hard-difficulty-mode-merged/p1

[Shikaru.7618]

@Vaelen.5294 said:The main problem with GW2 is the steep learning curve for raids. Most MMOs have a normal mode raid for newbies who are learning and a hard mode raid for hardcore experienced raiders, GW2 has nothing of the sort. Just look at how Elder Scrolls Online does it well, in those 12 man dungeons it doesn't take huge DPS numbers or experienced players to successfully complete normal runs, only in veteran mode is high DPS and experience required. GW2 just needs an easy mode raid level so that newer players can learn the mechanics without wiping the group.

Most bosses can be killed with abysmal dps. The problem is that when newbies step into a raid they're not learning mechanics, they're still learning the basics of combat because story and open world do a poor job of teaching players. You take a bunch of veteran open world players, anecdotally, they cant tell you what half of their traits do let alone know what buttons to press to cc. If mechanics is all people needed to learn, hitting the dodge button when your screen turns bright yellow is not hard. Too bad they're not watching for that tell because they're too busy looking at their skill bar wondering what buttons 2-10 do. Class basics shouldnt be something a player still has to learn after doing all story content up to pof but sadly it is for most new players who join training raids.

[Malediktus.9250]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Jockum.1385" said:Replaying content was never the point.

Replayability of group content means healthy group content, if it's not replayed then it's not healthy content. I think that is obvious. Story content isn't replayable, but it's designed not to be replayable.

Absolutly no one takes a momentary picture of an "unsteady flow" as indicator of activity.

If you think about it, that's exactly what you are doing with your "dungeons were popular back then" argument though, unless you have some actual data to back that up.

Take some actually useful gw2efficiency data, comparing episode story completion, with more recent raid and fractal releases:Freezie: 10.818% / 7.690% (finished / snowball achievement)A Star to Guide Us: 32.544% / 27.109% (first instance / last instance)Mythwright Gambit: 7.343% / 4.326% (first boss / last boss)Long Live the Lich: 43.924% / 34.824% (first instance / last instance)Deepstone: 23.420% / 13.252% (easier achievement / harder achievement)Daybreak: 54.323% / 44.326% (first instance / last instance)Twilight Oasis: 17.485% / 10.216% (easier achievement / harder achievement)Hall of Chains: 9.570% / 6.645% (first boss / last boss)

Edit: and one more: 26273 signed up for the big lottery that's 26% of the tracked population (which is how many gw2efficiency users are actively watching the website)

You can sign up to the lottery without having a gw2efficiency account. You can sign up with multiple accounts to the lottery. You can chose to not take part in the lottery at all. You can also opt out of being part of the statistics.There are too many variables, but I found out only 1/3rd of the top 1000 achievement point players are on gw2efficiency. So 2/3 of the most active playerbase are not :(

[maddoctor.2738]

@Malediktus.9250 said:There are too many variables, but I found out only 1/3rd of the top 1000 achievement point players are on gw2efficiency. So 2/3 of the most active playerbase are not :(

How did you figure that out?

[Lucinellia.9247]

I'm going to throw another opinion into the mix. I like raiding (lots of clears, lots of CMs, all the usual), I think it is (overall) enjoyable but, in its current form, it is definitely detrimental to the community.

In the past year, I went through about 4 statics, only one of those I left due to my own circumstances (change of work times) while the others collapsed. My current static has lost a few people so I can definitely agree that the community is being negatively impacted by how raids are implemented - we wouldn't be losing people due to raid burnout and my previous groups wouldn't have fallen apart due to burnout if it wasn't an issue.

At this stage, raids have been in the game for over 3 years and the biggest reason I've noticed for people leaving is because they are pretty poorly balanced. We've had 3+ years of Chronomancer/Druid/Warrior and people don't always want to play such roles (or even those professions if they want to play support) leading to memes such as chronojail becoming pretty common in the raiding community. Being effectively forced to play Chronomancer (and even in the sense of nothing really being able to compete with it) has resulted in a few people I know leaving raiding outright. Having to play Druid instead of a main profession such as Tempest, Scrapper, Herald and so on also means that people are less keen to get into raids because it might mean playing a 4 hour old alt compared with a 400+ hour main.

Couple that with the KP requirements that the community forces on people wanting to get into raiding (which I have no problem meeting) and you end up with a pretty toxic situation where people end up burning out because raid balance is poor and raid releases too small and infrequent but it is harder for new players to reach the level where the older raiders that left were at.

On top of that, new raiders are faced with an utterly illogical situation where the raid wings (and even the bosses within those wings) aren't in an order of increasing difficulty, making the progression path confusing and challenging. Throw in the increasing bias towards power and condition exclusive bosses (W6 B1 and B2 being an excellent example here) and the barriers to get into raiding are steep. Since there is no gear progression, there is also the increasing toxicity of alt progression where it is becoming more and more common place to expect people to play all major DPS options and switch to the "best" profession for each boss. That doesn't help either.

While that latter point probably can't be resolved without a huge overhaul, there are things that Arenanet can readily do to increase accessibility of raids and improve retention within the community.

• We need difficulty progression in raids. The easiest encounter should come first, the hardest last. Since that can't be done given we've had 6 wings of no logical difficulty progression, an easy mode would allow people to get into raiding. I won't go into the details of how this should look, but it needs to be introduced.
• Make CMs repeatable. The raid content release pace is abominably slow. Allowing CMs to be repeated for a slight increase in rewards would help hold people.
• Balance needs to be reasonable. We shouldn't be at 3+ years of Chronomancer/Druid/Warrior, the former of which absolutely causes people to leave the game. We should have reasonable options that can compete for a quickness+alacrity/healing/offensive support. This will require a considerable overhaul and removing things like banners and spirits but it absolutely needs to happen.
• New raids should offer more bosses, in a logical difficulty progression. Most new bosses are cleared within a day, but we need more bosses like Dhuum / Dhuum CM. Variable difficulties would allow for this sort of structure within a wing.
• Actually having trash in the raid wings might help - not events but just mobs to take out so that you get a better idea of the lore and importance of the raid and what the next boss is going to do. Add in some unique exotic drops here and it shouldn't get too boring, especially as they aren't timed events like Spirit Woods. This trash should help to teach upcoming boss mechanics, similar to what Spirit Vale did, adding another difficulty scaffold.
• Limit character switching in raids - while not a hard limit, an increase in gold dropped and increase chance of ascended items with each boss killed per wing would help. Obviously, this would be difficult to implement now because of asinine design decisions such as Deimos, River of Souls, Largos Twins and the heavy insistence on one damage type over another (eg CA vs LT) but with a longer raid wing with increasing difficulty as suggested above this could help.

The other big issue is that the sheer amount of raid content is becoming too much. In other games new content supersedes the older raid wings but that doesn't happen in GW2 due to a lack of gear progression and very small raid wings. I'm aware of a few people that have stopped with GW2 because the amount of time for a full clear is erring on silly and this will only get worse as time goes on. I'm not entirely sure how to fix this, but it will need to be addressed eventually.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Miatela.5047" said:

• Make CMs repeatable. The raid content release pace is abominably slow. Allowing CMs to be repeated for a slight increase in rewards would help hold people.

That would split the community and it's the major hassle in implementing this (stated by the developers).

I'm aware of a few people that have stopped with GW2 because the amount of time for a full clear is erring on silly and this will only get worse as time goes on. I'm not entirely sure how to fix this, but it will need to be addressed eventually.

The solution to this is rather simple: don't do a full clear. I don't think this is even worth considering as a "problem".

[Lucinellia.9247]

I don't think posts that try to steer the conversation only to the negative points that someone wants to counteract are really helpful but, you'll get your response.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:That would split the community and it's the major hassle in implementing this (stated by the developers).

There is no evidence for this, as you are keen to point out against other arguments. In fact, looking at other games which have such a system implemented, it doesn't split the player base and instead encourages more people into the content, increasing the worth of development time spent on it.

You only need to look into the developer discussion around WoW's LFG or FFXIV's 24 player content to see this.

I've also never heard that easier modes are not being implemented because of technical reasons. Arenanet have only made ideological reasons as far as I know but I am happy to be corrected. On the other hand, we have active evidence that easier difficulties are readily implemented in the game through the entirety of the fractal system. An easier difficulty could also be created simply by increasing the number of players that can join a raid and not altering anything else (aside from rewards). This wasn't a discussion I wanted to get dragged into and will happily go with your suggestion not to focus on this and instead discuss the problems that are causing issues with raiding.

The solution to this is rather simple: don't do a full clear. I don't think this is even worth considering as a "problem".

I'm not sure much worthwhile discussion can happen if that is how you want to address legitimate issues. It can be considered a "problem" as it negatively affects how people play and has led to people leaving the mode. Your simple solution is also not simple - it doesn't take into account how people play, the groups they play in and your solution actively encourages the decline of the game mode. You want to retain players, not shrug your shoulders and suggest playing less!

[Malediktus.9250]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:

• Make CMs repeatable. The raid content release pace is abominably slow. Allowing CMs to be repeated for a slight increase in rewards would help hold people.

That would split the community and it's the major hassle in implementing this (stated by the developers).

I'm aware of a few people that have stopped with GW2 because the amount of time for a full clear is erring on silly and this will only get worse as time goes on. I'm not entirely sure how to fix this, but it will need to be addressed eventually.

The solution to this is rather simple: don't do a full clear. I don't think this is even worth considering as a "problem".

I agree. 3 hours a week isn't even much yet.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:There are too many variables, but I found out only 1/3rd of the top 1000 achievement point players are on gw2efficiency. So 2/3 of the most active playerbase are not :(

How did you figure that out?It has been a while since I have been looking at it, but let me redo the math.

649 people on EU with 35k AP title250 people on NA with 35k AP title899 total

715 people on gw2 efficiency stats with 35k AP title (exalted achiever)

79,5% of people over 35k AP are using gw2efficiency. Looks like the stats got better over time, but still seems pretty low considering how useful gw2efficiency is to veteran players.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Miatela.5047" said:I don't think posts that try to steer the conversation only to the negative points that someone wants to counteract are really helpful but, you'll get your response.

I don't think responding to arguments that are thoroughly covered in other threads are worth discussing here.

There is no evidence for this, as you are keen to point out against other arguments. In fact, looking at other games which have such a system implemented, it doesn't split the player base and instead encourages more people into the content, increasing the worth of development time spent on it.

First of all, there is 86 page post on the subject of an easier mode, which is why I didn't respond to that part of your post.This is the developer stance on the subject of "Repeatable CMs", which was what I quoted:https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8gpfac/the_game_have_never_been_better_and_still_i_play/dye2dsr/

Speaking for Raids, I will say this much: the reason we don't allow CM to be repeatable is because we don't want to splinter the player base. Two different play modes will send all of the "elite" players to CM, leaving "normal" mode as less desirable. I'm not happy with how we originally introduced CM, and I continue to not be happy with how we implement it. There has to be a better way.I am looking into options for a more appealing alternative. There are a few ideas, some of which that have been proposed by the community, but it takes time to not just hem and haw over the decision (and get approvals from the powers that be), but also to properly implement it. It's not as simple as changing a line of code and BAM, it's all changed and ready to ship. It's thousands of content objects, potentially custom code, scripts that all need to interact properly, then doing this across all of the existing content, and testing it to find and fix dem bugs.All that to say: we hear you on the Raid CM front, and we're exploring options.

It's more than ideological issue

I'm not sure much worthwhile discussion can happen if that is how you want to address legitimate issues.

I'm not sure how much of a "discussion" can come from:

I'm not entirely sure how to fix this, but it will need to be addressed eventually.