Raiding is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the GW2 community, if it hasn't already

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:While people who are more casual might spend money on the game (especially new players who feel they have to catch up), to assume that players who are most invested will spend none is plain incorrect.It's not that they spend none. Of course they do. It's just that generally they aren't among the highest-spending crowd.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:While people who are more casual might spend money on the game (especially new players who feel they have to catch up), to assume that players who are most invested will spend none is plain incorrect.It's not that they spend none. Of course they do. It's just that generally they

aren't

among the highest-spending crowd.

That's all based on the assumption that people with gold will convert this gold into gems and not use cash.

There is people with 25,000 hours of play time, 70 characters, 100+ gifts of exploration. Take a guess how much money they have spent on the game? I personally almost never convert gold to gems since I can spare money to get gems and buy things from the gem store if I want to. Not every one is a poor student who can't afford to buy gems (I've been through that time myself).

The things is, if you can afford to buy gems, there is absolutely no reason to convert gold. That is time wasted. To assume that people will spend gold to get gems while being financially good enough off to spare money on the game is insanity.

Again, this entire premise is flawed. People who are most invested are most likely to spend money and continued money on the game. That's the only fact you need.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:While people who are more casual might spend money on the game (especially new players who feel they have to catch up), to assume that players who are most invested will spend none is plain incorrect.It's not that they spend none. Of course they do. It's just that generally they

aren't

among the highest-spending crowd.

[CITATION NEEDED]

No one other than Anet actually has access to this information. Stop making things up.

[hellsqueen.3045]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:While people who are more casual might spend money on the game (especially new players who feel they have to catch up), to assume that players who are most invested will spend none is plain incorrect.It's not that they spend none. Of course they do. It's just that generally they

aren't

among the highest-spending crowd.

That's all based on the assumption that people with gold will convert this gold into gems and not use cash.

There is people with 25,000 hours of play time, 70 characters, 100+ gifts of exploration. Take a guess how much money they have spent on the game? I personally almost never convert gold to gems since I can spare money to get gems and buy things from the gem store if I want to. Not every one is a poor student who can't afford to buy gems (I've been through that time myself).

The things is, if you can afford to buy gems, there is absolutely no reason to convert gold. That is time wasted. To assume that people will spend gold to get gems while being financially good enough off to spare money on the game is insanity.

Again, this entire premise is flawed. People who are most invested are most likely to spend money and continued money on the game. That's the only fact you need.

If I had the money, I likely still would look to conversion first over spending money because as much as I love the game, I would rather not use my money to buy mostly aesthetics if they were within my easy gold earning range. I would rather save my money to put toward new games as well, which are usually expensive. As an Australian, games sometimes release at $90 for us and sometimes more. And when I do buy gems, I buy gem cards because in AU it is cheaper to buy it from a store.

My exception is buying content in general. When I was missing LWS2, I dropped money on that the moment it went on sale.And I immediately buy the expansions.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:While people who are more casual might spend money on the game (especially new players who feel they have to catch up), to assume that players who are most invested will spend none is plain incorrect.It's not that they spend none. Of course they do. It's just that generally they

aren't

among the highest-spending crowd.

This is only based on reports and "research" on mobile games where the casual crowd turns into whales in order to progress faster, due to limited time. The highest spending crowd in actual mmorpgs is the crowd that is deeply invested into a game, since there is no pay to skip in mmorpgs.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

I dont see how raiding is destroying the gw2 community. Especially since most, and i do mean a big most, of the community doesnt even raid. If anything the raiding community is just killing themselves slowly. They make the game not fun. For example waiting in lfg for more than 5 min for a group is ridiculous. Asking and waiting for all these requirements just to fail is insane. I dont ping anything because its a useless act that doesnt prove anything. And i no longer wait more than 5 min for a group because my time is more important than the meager rewards from raiding.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:I dont see how raiding is destroying the gw2 community. Especially since most, and i do mean a big most, of the community doesnt even raid. If anything the raiding community is just killing themselves slowly. They make the game not fun. For example waiting in lfg for more than 5 min for a group is ridiculous. Asking and waiting for all these requirements just to fail is insane. I dont ping anything because its a useless act that doesnt prove anything. And i no longer wait more than 5 min for a group because my time is more important than the meager rewards from raiding.

Waiting for T4s and/or fractal CM players usually takes more time than waiting for a raid player. Only if you are looking for a chrono you'll be waiting aeons in both lfgs. That's why we cover the support roles by ourselves if we need a 5th/10th player from the lfg. Additionally most pug chronos are suboptimal compared to ours.

[hellsqueen.3045]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:While people who are more casual might spend money on the game (especially new players who feel they have to catch up), to assume that players who are most invested will spend none is plain incorrect.It's not that they spend none. Of course they do. It's just that generally they

aren't

among the highest-spending crowd.

This is only based on reports and "research" on mobile games where the casual crowd turns into whales in order to progress faster, due to limited time. The highest spending crowd in actual mmorpgs is the crowd that is deeply invested into a game, since there is no pay to skip in mmorpgs.

I have seen plenty of people in Overwatch, CS:GO and this game who are casual players who don't get enough time to grind out what they want and instead spend their excess money on those games simply because so much of their time is used to make money, that they have excess and choose to spend that money in games that normally require time to get what they want simply by using money to skip over some of the time that they wouldn't have.

That report can still hold merit amongst the general gaming community because those players with extra income exist in our community and still possess the same spending habits they do elsewhere.

[Jockum.1385]

@maddoctor.2738 said:That data doesn't show anything about how many times those players replayed the content.Replaying content was never the point. Strawman. Also it is data instead of non based claims of raids being popular. Raids are btw. also needed for legendary equip, so by your logic the same amount of players which reached fractal 10 should have done raids. You are simply wrong, can't base your claims on anything and the only data we have access to proves you wrong.You were talking about story not group content. I responded to that.Because someone claimed that group content needs to be replayable and storycontent is not replayable. Which is obviously nonsense.No there weren't. You are remembering the time when only CoF P1 was being run 100 times per day. That was fixed quickly.I asume you are new to the game and haven't played in 2014-2015? AC was also very popular. Or TA. Or SE. Arah or HoTW were less frequented, sure. They are by far more difficult and many players were not able to beat this content.

@maddoctor.2738 said:It's better that way than comparing the fractal level with the amount of LI.A listing is like a picture. If you take a picture of a busy road you see maybe 20 cars. Compared to a picture of a parking lot where you can see 50 cars the parking seems to be more frequented. But the same cars are still standing there 3 hours later, while the road has been frequented by 20000 cars in the meantime. Absolutly no one takes a momentary picture of an "unsteady flow" as indicator of activity. This would only work, if all listings take the same time to fill. They don't. Some listings take half an hour or longer to fill. That's actually an indicator of low activity. But by your logic it indicates high activity. If listings fill up fast they are up for a few seconds and not many are visible at the same time. By your logic this indicates low activity.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:I dont see how raiding is destroying the gw2 community. Especially since most, and i do mean a big most, of the community doesnt even raid. If anything the raiding community is just killing themselves slowly. They make the game not fun. For example waiting in lfg for more than 5 min for a group is ridiculous. Asking and waiting for all these requirements just to fail is insane. I dont ping anything because its a useless act that doesnt prove anything. And i no longer wait more than 5 min for a group because my time is more important than the meager rewards from raiding.

Waiting for T4s and/or fractal CM players usually takes more time than waiting for a raid player. Only if you are looking for a chrono you'll be waiting aeons in both lfgs. That's why we cover the support roles by ourselves if we need a 5th/10th player from the lfg. Additionally most pug chronos are suboptimal compared to ours.

T4 arent that bad but for cm yeah i can see that. Its very discouraging when they ask for this kp. Unfortunate for me i cant join cms because i didnt do them day 1. Not that im a bad player but i would be learning it and noone wants to give a chance nowadays. So just like that i will be 1 less person doing them making that niche that much smaller. And i get it, noone wants to fail.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Jockum.1385 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:No there weren't. You are remembering the time when only CoF P1 was being run 100 times per day. That was fixed quickly.I asume you are new to the game and haven't played in 2014-2015? AC was also very popular. Or TA. Or SE. Arah or HoTW were less frequented, sure. They are by far more difficult and many players were not able to beat this content.

No he is not new to the game. Strait at vanilla, CoF P1 (and later P2 after the initial nerfs when dungeon rewards would reset after x amount of dungeon paths) was farmed by far the most. Reason being that tokens were not limited by day, the path was completed in 5-7 minutes and the rewards were both above level 68 (for salvaging into ectos) and berserker (which after the initial run on soldier became the go-to gear 3-4 weeks in).

All other paths even if easy were run a lot less, even AC since those tokens gave soldier gear and sub level 68 exotics and rares.

The entire reason to change how dungeon rewards worked was to make people run something BESIDES CoF P1 (and then later the fastest paths you needed to complete to get back to CoF P1+2 and get tokens). You are incorrect.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Jockum.1385" said:Replaying content was never the point.

Replayability of group content means healthy group content, if it's not replayed then it's not healthy content. I think that is obvious. Story content isn't replayable, but it's designed not to be replayable.

Absolutly no one takes a momentary picture of an "unsteady flow" as indicator of activity.

If you think about it, that's exactly what you are doing with your "dungeons were popular back then" argument though, unless you have some actual data to back that up.

Take some actually useful gw2efficiency data, comparing episode story completion, with more recent raid and fractal releases:Freezie: 10.818% / 7.690% (finished / snowball achievement)A Star to Guide Us: 32.544% / 27.109% (first instance / last instance)Mythwright Gambit: 7.343% / 4.326% (first boss / last boss)Long Live the Lich: 43.924% / 34.824% (first instance / last instance)Deepstone: 23.420% / 13.252% (easier achievement / harder achievement)Daybreak: 54.323% / 44.326% (first instance / last instance)Twilight Oasis: 17.485% / 10.216% (easier achievement / harder achievement)Hall of Chains: 9.570% / 6.645% (first boss / last boss)

Edit: and one more: 26273 signed up for the big lottery that's 26% of the tracked population (which is how many gw2efficiency users are actively watching the website)

[Jockum.1385]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:The entire reason to change how dungeon rewards worked was to make people run something BESIDES CoF P1 (and then later the fastest paths you needed to complete to get back to CoF P1+2 and get tokens). You are incorrect.You are refering to a few weeks after release, he was speaking of "pre HoT" so when dungeons rewarded you with 1G or more for each path. In 2014-2015 a COE fullrun took ~30 mins and dropped relativly good loot compared to COF. SE 1+3 was also a very fast and popular run. Same for TA up-forward. Or CM fullrun. Or AC fullrun. HoTW and arah were by far less popular I'd say, bc of much increased difficulty in comparision. Maybe dungeons were earlier even more popular (lfg didn't exist initially, so I doubt it, but whatever). Even a few days before dungeon rewards got reduced in 2015 dungeons were popular and groups filled very fast. Dungeons are dead since then, but before they were pretty populated and even in 2015 there were plenty of "p1" "1+2+3" "p1 exp" "p1 exp fullzerk" listings.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Replayability of group content means healthy group content, if it's not replayed then it's not healthy content. I think that is obvious. Story content isn't replayable, but it's designed not to be replayable.You are confusing group content with hardcorecontent.Replayability has nothing to do with group- or solocontent. Replayability matters for hardcorecontent. A high replayability indicates hardcorecontent, it has nothing to do with group content. Single player hardcorecontent also needs a high replayability.Most obvious example: what about group story content as in GW1? All GW1 story content is group content.

Content for hardcoreplayers as raids (but also WvW, PvP, achievements, legendary weapons etc.) need to be repetitive. Hardcoreplayers log in daily and ofc it is impossible to deliver new content on a daily basis. Therefore there needs to be content with replayability, as SW farming, fractals, raids. For a high replayability well made rewards, more polished bosses and so on are needed.For core- or casual players this doesn't matter as much. They log in, as example, once a week. They consume much less content and are also less interested in farming content hundreds of times to get their fractal god or whatever. For them it is important that GW2 has something to offer and they don't care about for them unreachable longterm goals. They want to log in into GW2 and do some interesting content, have some fun. Some of these players are only interested in solo content. Others are (it's a MMO after all) interested in doing content together with some friends. Group content for the latter does not need to be super polished.

Ideally a company tries to achieve a certain replayability for all content. In GW1 storymissions (a bit comparable to GW2 dungeon story mode) gained an increased replayability when Anet added new rewards. Anet added zaishen missions, some form of character based "daily" as in GW2. So especially for short story missions hardcoreplayers replayed them with many characters to farm some extra tokens for increased bag size, special skins and so on.Another example are event quests in GW1 which are also character based. Casuals did them once and spend maybe 3 hours or so doing them, enjoyed their wintersday quests and got a fun time. Hardcoreplayers did them on all of their 10 characters for loot.For GW2, as example: Anet could easily recycle content as https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confessor%27s_End could easily be used as group content. As suggestion: keep it as it is as "solomode" and add a "teammode" with buffed enemies. Teammode gets called "storymissions" and gets a similar hub as fractals. To add some replayability to also cater more to hardcore- and coregamers it would be possible to add more valueable drops to trash enemies. Dredge fractal was also pretty rewarding bc of all those bags which dropped there. It would also be possible to add tokens for doing such storymissions, which then could be used as currency for increased bag size, new skins and so on. This content would be easy content. It would not be challenging as raids and therefore more boring to hardcoreplayers. But it would cater to all kinds of players and to some degree "unite" the playerbase a little bit. Some hardcoreplayers might join casual groups, people play content together, might give each other advice about builds etc.Content which could be recycled as such "casual teamcontent" exists a lot in GW2. Other options to create such content with very little effort are either using open world maps (see https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness) and re-use of old bosses with tweaked stats. Kholer is, for casual players, an interesting boss. Remove add spawn, increase his stats: It'll teach players a bit to dodge and it'll also teach them about projectile defense or stabi. Even all three VG pre "bosses" could be used with tweaked stats as some final boss for casual teamcontent. Or Anet uses editor content. In games with good map editors even pupils can glue a relativly interesting map + enemies + quests together in a few hours. In some games as WC3 this added tons of content - some of it was really good, despite limited options compared to real game devs.

Take some actually useful gw2efficiency data, comparing episode story completion, with more recent raid and fractal releases:Even those numbers strongly indicate that raids are by far less popular than fractals. Dungeons are, ofc, a very problematic comparision bc there are no new dungeons to compare to.

[Yasi.9065]

@hellsqueen.3045 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:While people who are more casual might spend money on the game (especially new players who feel they have to catch up), to assume that players who are most invested will spend none is plain incorrect.It's not that they spend none. Of course they do. It's just that generally they

aren't

among the highest-spending crowd.

That's all based on the assumption that people with gold will convert this gold into gems and not use cash.

There is people with 25,000 hours of play time, 70 characters, 100+ gifts of exploration. Take a guess how much money they have spent on the game? I personally almost never convert gold to gems since I can spare money to get gems and buy things from the gem store if I want to. Not every one is a poor student who can't afford to buy gems (I've been through that time myself).

The things is, if you can afford to buy gems, there is absolutely no reason to convert gold. That is time wasted. To assume that people will spend gold to get gems while being financially good enough off to spare money on the game is insanity.

Again, this entire premise is flawed. People who are most invested are most likely to spend money and continued money on the game. That's the only fact you need.

If I had the money, I likely still would look to conversion first over spending money because as much as I love the game, I would rather not use my money to buy mostly aesthetics

if they were within my easy gold earning range

. I would rather save my money to put toward new games as well, which are usually expensive. As an Australian, games sometimes release at $90 for us and sometimes more. And when I do buy gems, I buy gem cards because in AU it is cheaper to buy it from a store.

My exception is buying content in general. When I was missing LWS2, I dropped money on that the moment it went on sale.And I immediately buy the expansions.

The absolute minority of the raid community earns enough gold through raids to regularly buy gems with gold. Thats players with 3+ raid ready accounts (though those cost money as well!), raidsellers.

Quite honestly, you cant go and point fingers saying "THAT part of the community doesnt spend ANY money on the game, they are all leeches!". The kind of content you like doesnt really define how much money you spend. It depends on how much money you have in rl, if you could possibly even spend something. It depends on your personal tastes (me for example, I just dont like 90% of the gemshop content and I stopped buying skins). It depends also on your mindset.

Except for powertrading theres no content in the game that creates enough gold to convert and buy constantly. And powertrading only if you are part of the top 100 doing it, because its a rich get richer environment.

Im quite honestly VERY annoyed with people constantly saying "raiders dont spend money on the game". Its untrue, and its slanderous. Please stop with it already. I know of several "just" openworld casuals that farmed SW for a couple hours each day and never spend any money on gemshop because they could constantly buy gems. Does that now mean open world casuals never buy gems with money? No.

And btw just because someone is "casual" doesnt mean that player is willing to spend money on the gemshop. The ones I know that spend most on gems, are those actually converting gems to gold to buy themselves legendaries. PvPers, WvWers. Id say the "casual" openworlder doesnt spend any more on the game then a raider or someone running fractals for fun. Stop feeling entitled.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Jockum.1385 said:Replayability has nothing to do with group- or solocontent. Replayability matters for hardcorecontent.

This makes no sense. Any kind of group content requires replayability otherwise you won't have players to play it anymore. As players move on, by finishing the content, newer players won't be able to find others to play with.

All GW1 story content is group content.

No it's not, GW1 story is a solo experience. It has absolutely no requirement to group, there is a reason they had henchmen (and then heroes) in the game, because they knew finding others to play the story would be hard due to the lack of replayability.

Even those numbers strongly indicate that raids are by far less popular than fractals.

Actually they don't. I'm not sure why you compare Raids to Fractals though.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Yasi.9065 said:Quite honestly, you cant go and point fingers saying "THAT part of the community doesnt spend ANY money on the game, they are all leeches!". The kind of content you like doesnt really define how much money you spend. It depends on how much money you have in rl, if you could possibly even spend something. It depends on your personal tastes (me for example, I just dont like 90% of the gemshop content and I stopped buying skins). It depends also on your mindset.

Going to quote this because it amazes me how people can still not understand this.

The very first hurdle is:Can you afford to buy gems?

Only if that question is answered with yes does anything else matter. At that point the next question becomes:What do people in general spend money on?

A very general answer being: things they enjoy, are invested in and/or desire.

With these 2 questions, and if I might add quite logic approaches, there is no way to rationally argue that raiders spend no money on the game. Gold conversion is INSANELY inefficient time wise. Why would any sane person who has the money to buy gems and convert them (or rather spend them on the gem shop) decide to effectively trade this amount of time in?

@Yasi.9065 said:

Except for powertrading theres no content in the game that creates enough gold to convert and buy constantly. And powertrading only if you are part of the top 100 doing it, because its a rich get richer environment.

This is also true. As always, people who successfully engage in market actions will be the only ones who can regularly convert gems. The reason is very strait forward:

The TP is the only content in the game which is NOT heavily monitored for the amount of reward it gives. Any other content in the game is balanced AROUND the games economy as in to not be to damaging or effective. This alone disqualifies any content in this game (or any group playing this content) from living off of these rewards alone (modified by spending habits of individuals obviously). Now you could argue that raids are way overperforming reward wise to which you would basically get laughed out of the forums.

@Yasi.9065 said:

And btw just because someone is "casual" doesnt mean that player is willing to spend money on the gemshop. The ones I know that spend most on gems, are those actually converting gems to gold to buy themselves legendaries. PvPers, WvWers. Id say the "casual" openworlder doesnt spend any more on the game then a raider or someone running fractals for fun. Stop feeling entitled.

While I have experienced similar things, I would again apply the rational:

Players who are capable to spend money,Players who enjoy the game,Players who are invested in the game,will spend money on it.

The rationale that a player with few play hours spends money will depend on if they are invested enough (through their very low play time) to be willing to spend money.

[Aurora.9347]

I put a lot of time in gw 2 or dedication got 3 characters with full ascended gear, my reaperis fully geared even got those mighty infusions for the extra stats, even tarting to craft my first legendary oh but guess what im not met, i cant get into raid groups -.-, t4 fractals do it everyday, cant get group for cms, i dont have KP...

[Vinceman.4572]

@Hugedeal.5426 said:I put a lot of time in gw 2 or dedication got 3 characters with full ascended gear, my reaperis fully geared even got those mighty infusions for the extra stats, even tarting to craft my first legendary oh but guess what im not met, i cant get into raid groups -.-, t4 fractals do it everyday, cant get group for cms, i dont have KP...

Open your own CM groups without KP requirement!One result is that you can learn with others and practice until you finally mastered them + having enough KP to get into KP groups. The other one is you'll learn why you have to in these specific groups because you yourself will fail mechanics a lot at the start before you get better. You are not exception to every other player that learned in the past. KP groups do not want to fail, they do not only want to be effective they want to be efficient. Today I ran CMs + T4s + Recs with an organized groups and we only wiped once in the whole run (at the start of the dredge fractal). You won't see that in pugs but I demand almost perfection in terms of not-wiping from my CM groups because everything else is a huge waste of time in my eyes.

[Aurora.9347]

Thx for the reply, tbh i feel like gw 2 content the ay it is shown is not friendly to new players specially due to the alianation of the meta builds, i apreciate for all the replies i think ima just move to ff 14, at least the raiing in there follows the same as wow... i'll have an easier time there i guess, gl and ty :d.

[Xar.6279]

@Hugedeal.5426 said:So what your saying is gw 2 was made for experienced players, as non kp groups sometimes ask for stupid demands...

GW2 is made for everyone and for noone at the same time :P That's the problem. ArenaNet wants to keep everyone here, but its not easy to do. They wanted to bring mass-pvp(wvw) / pvp / pve / players etc etc. But they dont support any of those modes enough. The only successful thing they made is combat and movement system.

There's ALOT of things that makes raids so bad in this game. It would require many hours to describe it all, so its not worth.Gw2 just wasnt made as raiding mmorpg, so it wont be one of these. Unfortunately.

Fun fact: ArenaNet wants to make everything casual and friendly,but at the same time their friendly solutions creates bigger elitism and problems than in hardcore raiding games xD

[Jockum.1385]

@maddoctor.2738 said:This makes no sense. Any kind of group content requires replayability otherwise you won't have players to play it anymore. As players move on, by finishing the content, newer players won't be able to find others to play with.That can be, indeed, a problem. I also indicated how you can add easily replayability to such content. But it is not needed as long as there are npcs helping you out.

No it's not, GW1 story is a solo experience. It has absolutely no requirement to group, there is a reason they had henchmen (and then heroes) in the game, because they knew finding others to play the story would be hard due to the lack of replayability.Finding a group wasn't really a problem when GW1 still got supported.It is a huge difference if content is designed for 8 people and can be done with the help of npcs - or if it is designed as solo content. The former is group content. The latter isn't. Same as dungeons and fractals are designed and balanced for 5 people, but can be low manned. Most people still choose 5 people instead of 1-3.I got a guild, I can choose to run GW1 content with them. But there is no point in doing a vista with my guildmates. Human players had advantages over NPCs. For years henchman had a stupid KI and questionable builds. Heros (three per player) were added with nighfall, GWs second expansions - not earlier. Heros could not use PVE skills, which is a huge disadvantage for experienced players. For unexperienced: you need to know builds for all classes. You also needed to unlock required skills, equip hero-npcs and be able to steer them while in combat. Many beginners parked their monks in enemy AOE etc. Overall: there were still lots of people searching for groups, even for storycontent. But you got a point, there were huge debates in all GW1 forums about this. Because it harmed the multiplayer aspect of GW1 and it's community. Similar as in GW2, where a community never really has formed except in some niche content as dungeons/raids/wvw.

I'm not sure why you compare Raids to Fractals though.Some pages ago someone claimed that raids are more popular than more casual group content (as dungeons or fractals). All numbers we know strongly indicate the opposite. In most content is easier content usually by far more popular and hardcorecontent niche. But whatever, I gave numbers and reasons, while the other side got nothing excpet wild claims based on nothing. So wake me up when someone got better data, until then -> BS.

@"Xar.6279" said:The only successful thing they made is combat and movement system.GW2s combat system has serious flaws. They become apparent when you imagine it without movement or dodging. Combat system is a mixture of movement (which is pretty good) and skillsystem (not so great). As the most obvious examples: rotations - which already tells a lot. It indicates "macro/bot like behaviour", instead of a clever usage of skills according to the ingame situation. Stacking counters mobility. There are also lots of spammed effects (as boonremoval on autoattack), lots of passive effects (see sigils/runes/traits). Buffs are partywide, no brain needed for applying them to useful targets. Same for damage, most is AOE. Etc.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Jockum.1385 said:That can be, indeed, a problem. I also indicated how you can add easily replayability to such content. But it is not needed as long as there are npcs helping you out.

Now you want henchmen/ heroes too. I have a feeling that what you are after is GW1, in that case the game is still alive and you can go play it if you want.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Xar.6279 said:GW2 is made for everyone and for noone at the same time :P That's the problem.Agreed. Anet is way too afraid of deciding what their target group is, and sticking with that decision. Or, even worse, announcing it.

The only successful thing they made is combat and movement system.It can be possibly called succesful only in a very narrow sense, and only if we don't look and how it meshes (or doesn't mesh) with other systems. Active combat on its own is fine. It's not fine when coupled with current gear/stat system (which was clearly designed for a more static combat design, with no active defences). It's not fine when coupled with skill system, which isn't really made for fast-paced action combat (it's too complicated for it). The combination of those three systems is the primary reason why in GW2 the gap between casual and hardcore players is much greater than in other MMORPGs. And the main fault lies at the feet of the one thing that doesn't fit - the combat and movement system you mentioned. So, in this regard it is extremely unsuccesful. A mistake.

There's ALOT of things that makes raids so bad in this game. It would require many hours to describe it all, so its not worth.Gw2 just wasnt made as raiding mmorpg, so it wont be one of these. Unfortunately.That is definitely true. And trying to make it a more raider-friendly MMO is not really viable - the price the game would need to pay is just way too big.

Fun fact: ArenaNet wants to make everything casual and friendly,but at the same time their friendly solutions creates bigger elitism and problems than in hardcore raiding games xDThat's not entirely true - the elitism and toxicity definitely exist in other games as well, and to the same degree. It can sometimes not be so apparent, but only because there's a much greater separation between casual and hardcore communities. In GW2 up to a certain point everything was casual, and that label stays with the game even now, when it's no longer as true as before. Thus, the clashes between two groups are way more common and visible. But the elitism itself is nothing new.

[Opopanax.1803]

@Tyson.5160 said:With this downward trend, are we going to eventually see certain pieces of content, stop being developed?

The reality is that this is only true of people that participate in gw2 efficiencies.

I would argue that the vast majority of gw2 players rarely touch that stuff.

[Tyson.5160]

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:With this downward trend, are we going to eventually see certain pieces of content, stop being developed?

The reality is that this is only true of people that participate in gw2 efficiencies.

I would argue that the vast majority of gw2 players rarely touch that stuff.

I do too, which is why the numbers of the Lair of the Snowmen from efficiency is going to be off.