Raiding is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the GW2 community, if it hasn't already

[Celsith.2753]

@"Jockum.1385" said:

-Suggestions as "join a training run" or "join a raid guild" miss the point. This works fine for dedicated people which really want to become active raid players. It's an useless suggestion for most other players. More casual players want to experience the content, do it maybe once/twice and not farm the content weekly. Join a guild, get the kill and leave? I'm sure most raid guilds prefer to recruit permanent members and not leeches. If players play the content they can figure out if they like it. Improve, join a specialised guild, spend time. That's the "natural" approach. Not joining a guild and investing lots of time beforehand - just to figure out you don't like the content.

TL;DR: GW2 is a game seperated into more casual open world solo players and a tiny group of hardcore raidplayers. Content in between is missing, making it difficult to step into raids. It hurts teams and communities a lot, since there is no content for casual and coregamers. GW2 is basically the opposite of GW1, which had a strong focus on casual- and coregamer teamcontent ("family and friends" guilds).

I'm sorry but you seem to have not understood at all about training runs. You can join one, try it out and never go again. The guild I eventually joined do multiple runs each week for new raiders or people that want to try it. Often people join the guild after doing runs with them, because they enjoyed how it was run. There's no requirement to already be in a guild to join an advertised training run. As far as getting the kill, raids aren't as difficult as many people think and that first try saw my first kills.

This separation between open world players and raiders is entirely a matter of perception and simply does not exist. From deciding I wanted to do it, to being in a run with a friendly, super helpful team, well it was the same day. I was not made to feel any way uncomfortable. I was not made to feel a burden, or looked down upon. I strongly suggest all the people complaining about this supposed separation simply answer an advert for a training run.

[icy.9250]

skimming through what was said, maddoctor is on to something -- indeed I'd appreciate a raid over a new story episode any day. A new raid wouldn't have to be released as a giant wing, in my opinion, either. Would rather it be added piecemeal than with a bigger delay.

Raids are supposed to be hard and there should be at least some level of optimization going on as part of the process for a successful completion. If 9 people have practiced their classes at the golem and fractals or so and have at the least studied guides on new boss, and the 10th just casually strolls in with a completely off build, of course there will be tension. That's really the crux of it.

Sure, there are casual groups out there. There are also plenty of meme runs that I have voluntarily joined -- I'm talking like Become the Raven (+2000 toughness) and running away with the boss, necros and mesmers purposely Spectral Grasp or Focus4 pulling Vale Guardian seekers into the group every few seconds, Sabetha kites and cannons being done by healers inside of asura D-Golems, or a holosmith/spellbreaker/chrono dropping Big Ol' Bomb/Winds of Disenchantment/Time Warp on the group before eating mushrooms as slublings. (For the record, these were all experienced people and the fights were all basically one-shots, though I wouldn't recommend Corrosive Poison Cloud at the time of Feedback on Matthias, as that went too far ;D ).

The average ad wants to get it done and just basically wants everyone to pull their weight. On NA there are also just not that many ads aside from start of the week and perhaps weekends. It may be tricky for someone new to get into the scene, for sure, but I wouldn't associate the words "casual" with "raiding" as it's more often than not the wrong mindset.

[Talindra.4958]

Each content should be special design to cater for that specific type of players, otherwise there's no challenge for that players. Those who are casual you get your content update too...Just ignore raids and reward if you dislike this type of content.. don't be greedy.They made PvP so easily accessible to all type of players to farm ? ? personally I think it isn't a good idea.. good for all but those who likes a bit of challenge and like a bit more serious gaming mode in that context, they can not really enjoy that part of the game as much as it can offer.

As for raid, it is one part of game that players needs to take the game a bit more serious, where coordination and interaction between players is important to get the raid boss down. We are somewhat in the 3rd year of raid. It's not new anymore. If you want to be part of it, you have to try it.. listen to advise that many people give. Raid community isn't as what you think, there are many good and nice people around willing to help. Trust me you will enjoy it once you get into it. All you need is good attitude and positive mind. You need to accept a change to playstyle too. Raid isn't hard, it just needs coordination and people to listen.. let go whatever stop you from trying and have a go and try it. When I say try, meaning there is no other excuses, you have to try to do everything you can so you sign up with a training guild.. Willing to read and learn boss mechanic and work with others.

[Jockum.1385]

@"Celsith.2753" said:I'm sorry but you seem to have not understood at all about training runs. You can join one, try it out and never go again. The guild I eventually joined do multiple runs each week for new raiders or people that want to try it. Often people join the guild after doing runs with them, because they enjoyed how it was run. There's no requirement to already be in a guild to join an advertised training run. As far as getting the kill, raids aren't as difficult as many people think and that first try saw my first kills.

This separation between open world players and raiders is entirely a matter of perception and simply does not exist. From deciding I wanted to do it, to being in a run with a friendly, super helpful team, well it was the same day. I was not made to feel any way uncomfortable. I was not made to feel a burden, or looked down upon. I strongly suggest all the people complaining about this supposed separation simply answer an advert for a training run.

I did, but as explained does the training run suggestion only help already very dedicated players. For average joe such a suggestion is pointless.It's not the normal way approach to use third party sites before entering some piece of content, especially for more casual players. This only works for dedicated players.Your average "legolas" ranger from open world in fullsoldier is usually not among those players - or very underrepresented. It would be really interesting to see if there is a difference in player skill/equipment/builds/"preparation" if group A advertises on discord/forums and group B searches "anyone welcome" in LA map chat. I'd expect to get much worse results in mapchat. More casual players I know don't use third party sites. A player who is dedicated, who really wants to get into raids might look for such help to get into raids. The majority will search for a PUG, get in, wipe a few times, give up and never touch the content again. So that boat is already missed since 2015. That's how people get into new content. People were interested in raids, tried them, failed, gave up, end of story.It's not normal to search for builds and bossguides first. Normally, see for example story content, you simply get into the content without any preparation

I can hop into WvW with an open world character and follow a zerg. If I like it it can do some research, improve my build etc. If I don't I can return to skyrim or whatever. For raids this does not work. You need to prepare. Very simplified is that the point where the community splits. A good game would prepare players. "You've finished story? Great, now you are ready to succeed in raids". You should've learned by then to bring a proper build, to use CC and so on.

You seem to be a more dedicated player. Obviously you use third party sites. Maybe you were also joing a group after you read some guides, maybe you were even running a metabuild and didn't need to organise new equipment. Maybe you are able to run more than one class. So I'd say you can't really compare your experience with other players. Let say a fireele camping scepter autoattack is a bit difficult to teach raiding to. But that's the kind of players you'll find in open world. A lot. Would be interesting to see dps meter stats of open world zergs. Or as example: my guild was interested in raids. But when you are already struggling with T2 fractals that's not going to work. I told my guildmates that if they want to get into raids that they need to bring proper builds, be prepared to fail for hours at the same boss, linked some guides - and that's where the debate ended. In GW1 you had like ~2 experienced players which did the work. "use this build" copy'n paste; use conservative, slow but safe tactics eplained in voicechat, succeed, done. In GW2 after the 10th fail at the same boss I'd expect rage and or resignation. And for sure it would then be very difficult to form a team for a second try on another day.From my perspective: I'm mostly interested in teamcontent, idgaf about singleplayer content as open world, there are much better singleplayer games available. I'm not hardcore enough for raids/willing to jump through so many loops. I'm fine with fractals, also fractals CMs "learning by doing" concept. But for raids I'm by far too casual. So obviously I'm not the target audience of GW2. And never was, I'm more a GW1 player - casual/coregamer teamcontent. There is a reason why all those small more social guilds disappeared.

[Jagblade.4627]

From what I've seen, this supposed split is between people who just want to play the game and not necessarily be the best but are barred from content unless they run a "meta" build and anything else is regarded as worthless and a detriment. This isn't entirely a community issue as much as it is a mechanical issue. I think it could be solved if raids have categories of difficult like Fractals do. This way people with non-meta builds and punier gear can still partake in the raid content while still leaving the more experienced and competitive crowd with something far more challenging. GW2 appeared to be more of a casual MMO years ago but has been adding more and more "hardcore content." This in and of itself is not a bad thing but the casual and hardcore crowds will never be able to get along without avenues for both to enjoy content without taking away from the other.

[Cyndercat.7615]

@Jockum.1385 said:

@"Celsith.2753" said:I'm sorry but you seem to have not understood at all about training runs. You can join one, try it out and never go again. The guild I eventually joined do multiple runs each week for new raiders or people that want to try it. Often people join the guild after doing runs with them, because they enjoyed how it was run. There's no requirement to already be in a guild to join an advertised training run. As far as getting the kill, raids aren't as difficult as many people think and that first try saw my first kills.

This separation between open world players and raiders is entirely a matter of perception and simply does not exist. From deciding I wanted to do it, to being in a run with a friendly, super helpful team, well it was the same day. I was not made to feel any way uncomfortable. I was not made to feel a burden, or looked down upon. I strongly suggest all the people complaining about this supposed separation simply answer an advert for a training run.

I did, but as explained does the training run suggestion only help already very dedicated players. For average joe such a suggestion is pointless.It's not the normal way approach to use third party sites before entering some piece of content, especially for more casual players. This only works for dedicated players.Your average "legolas" ranger from open world in fullsoldier is usually not among those players - or very underrepresented. It would be really interesting to see if there is a difference in player skill/equipment/builds/"preparation" if group A advertises on discord/forums and group B searches "anyone welcome" in LA map chat. I'd expect to get much worse results in mapchat. More casual players I know don't use third party sites. A player who is dedicated, who really wants to get into raids might look for such help to get into raids. The majority will search for a PUG, get in, wipe a few times, give up and never touch the content again. So that boat is already missed since 2015. That's how people get into new content. People were interested in raids, tried them, failed, gave up, end of story.It's not normal to search for builds and bossguides first. Normally, see for example story content, you simply get into the content without any preparation

I can hop into WvW with an open world character and follow a zerg. If I like it it can do some research, improve my build etc. If I don't I can return to skyrim or whatever. For raids this does not work. You need to prepare. Very simplified is that the point where the community splits. A good game would prepare players. "You've finished story? Great, now you are ready to succeed in raids". You should've learned by then to bring a proper build, to use CC and so on.

You seem to be a more dedicated player. Obviously you use third party sites. Maybe you were also joing a group after you read some guides, maybe you were even running a metabuild and didn't need to organise new equipment. Maybe you are able to run more than one class. So I'd say you can't really compare your experience with other players. Let say a fireele camping scepter autoattack is a bit difficult to teach raiding to. But that's the kind of players you'll find in open world. A lot. Would be interesting to see dps meter stats of open world zergs. Or as example: my guild was interested in raids. But when you are already struggling with T2 fractals that's not going to work. I told my guildmates that if they want to get into raids that they need to bring proper builds, be prepared to fail for hours at the same boss, linked some guides - and that's where the debate ended. In GW1 you had like ~2 experienced players which did the work. "use this build" copy'n paste; use conservative, slow but safe tactics eplained in voicechat, succeed, done. In GW2 after the 10th fail at the same boss I'd expect rage and or resignation. And for sure it would then be very difficult to form a team for a second try on another day.From my perspective: I'm mostly interested in teamcontent, idgaf about singleplayer content as open world, there are much better singleplayer games available. I'm not hardcore enough for raids/willing to jump through so many loops. I'm fine with fractals, also fractals CMs "learning by doing" concept. But for raids I'm by far too casual. So obviously I'm not the target audience of GW2. And never was, I'm more a GW1 player - casual/coregamer teamcontent. There is a reason why all those small more social guilds disappeared.

Well tbh if people arent willing to change their build to meet their team needs then raids just arent for them. And thats fine. Not everyone needs to raid if its something they dont enjoy. Theres no urgent need to bring more people into raids who dont enjoy them and theres no need either to change raids to be enjoyable for people who arent their target audience.

[Cyndercat.7615]

@"Jagblade.4627" said:From what I've seen, this supposed split is between people who just want to play the game and not necessarily be the best but are barred from content unless they run a "meta" build and anything else is regarded as worthless and a detriment. This isn't entirely a community issue as much as it is a mechanical issue. I think it could be solved if raids have categories of difficult like Fractals do. This way people with non-meta builds and punier gear can still partake in the raid content while still leaving the more experienced and competitive crowd with something far more challenging. GW2 appeared to be more of a casual MMO years ago but has been adding more and more "hardcore content." This in and of itself is not a bad thing but the casual and hardcore crowds will never be able to get along without avenues for both to enjoy content without taking away from the other.

Noone is barred from raids for not running meta builds. Theres no gear check at the door that kicks you out if you dont have certain stats. You and your friends/guild can enter with whatever build you like. However if you want to pug raids, then you are going to have a hard time finding 9 other random players who want to try the content with you when you build is totally unsuited to that content. If you run an off meta build that actually does its job and works though, you will have no problem.

[Sorin Noroku.5342]

@Emberstone.2904 said:

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@"qwerty.8943" said:So what is a 'semi-casual', "competent-but-not-uber DPS", though "wants-to-learn" supposed to do?

Don't worry. The next Guild Wars will come out on mobile, and have such a bad/limited interface that everybody can be an elite raider by the end of a week! But for now... why don't you join the raid-training discord, and group up with other people in the same boat?

Where can I find this raid-training Discord? I've been wanting to try them out now that my Weaver is geared.

Not sure if you’ve been helped, but here the link to RiT (Raiders in Training) https://discord.gg/SvsVzVQ ! Hope to see you in the raid scene soon!

[Eli Stormstrike.8637]

I was pretty much permanently burned out from raids being a Mythic tank in WoW for like 3 expansions, haven't touched raids unless it's matchmade like LFR since Legion.

I just buy runs in GW2 to get stuff that I want or need, and won't bother until there's some LFR option here; having to schedule my life around raiding, and the fact that I know I'm gonna get tired or burned out from raiding a few months down the line and wanna play something else means I just don't want to bother, and from experience I know that pugging is an insane waste of time compared to guild runs, unless the content is outdated or outgeared (which never happens in GW2, hence why pugging is a hassle).

tldr; I don't raid because I don't wanna want to work a second job, I wanna chill out when I play, and don't really mind cause I can just buy runs since I have more money than time, until there's a matchmade option (unless rewards suck in matchmaking, in which case I'll just keep buying runs).

[Vision.7265]

Almost all guilds that advertise in chat to join their guild say "RAID" in their ad at some point. I'm not in those guilds because of the drama for raid spots and all that. They should change it to RACE. I can just buy pretty things from Anet to fund the game (ty anet) and drift around maps for fun. I don't even have to place in the top three to get rewards, I only have to complete the race in the generous amount of time given (ty anet). Anything that becomes 'work' after the end of my workday is a 'no' since I need to go into a chill and rest mode. I love my career, but it gets tiring; I'm only human. I want to do something fun. Remember, this game didn't always have raiding. It should have stayed that way to be unique. I agree with OP but for different reasons. Raiding introduced a culture that was not in line with the original, pre-expansion game. I don't agree with it but it's here. Perhaps if they made raids more forgiving in requirements more people would actually want to do it. There are people that don't agree with beetle racing but it's here.

All you have to do are the things that you want to do. It's a game.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

Eventually raids will have to get story mode, normal mode, and also then repeatable CMs for each boss that reset every 1-3 months.

It'll happen eventually. You'll see. There's no other way to get people to get into raids.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Jagblade.4627" said:From what I've seen, this supposed split is between people who just want to play the game and not necessarily be the best but are barred from content unless they run a "meta" build and anything else is regarded as worthless and a detriment. This isn't entirely a community issue as much as it is a mechanical issue.It's both. It's caused by mechanics, but also by differences in mindset (some of which Jockum nicely summed up in his post above).I think it could be solved if raids have categories of difficult like Fractals do.It could be lessened, but not solved. The main mechanical issue comes from the massive gap between floor and ceiling. You can have an" average OW player" trying their best, and still doing 10x less damage than the skilled hardcore in their meta build. You could have the same "average OW player" trying their best while equipped in the very same meta gear and build as the previously mentioned hardcore player and still doing 5x less damage. That's massive, and can't really be "solved" by anything less than a complete combat engine overhaul. Which just isn't going to happen.

[Jockum.1385]

@"zombyturtle.5980" said:

Well tbh if people arent willing to change their build to meet their team needs then raids just arent for them. And thats fine.

It isn't really about being willing or not. That's not the main problem. Actually tells a lot that you think so. Time and gold investment is a much bigger problem. I never had a problem with telling a warrior to run banners in GW2. Most warriors are willing to switch their build.I never had a problem in GW1 to tell another player to switch some skills., too.

Asking for a new set of equipment is a bit much to ask for. For a more casual player this is expensive, he need to farm gold (if he is going full exo), buy runes etc. Often these players spend little time, like 1 hour per week ingame. Earning the gold for a raid try might take him weeks. Just to figure out after half an hour that he does not like raids? Without guaranteed successs or at least a good chance to succeed?

"Raids aren't for them" is not fine. It would, if Anet would release maybe 10-20 dungeons with each expansion. They don't. With so little content released it means: there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Jockum.1385 said:

@"zombyturtle.5980" said:

Well tbh if people arent willing to change their build to meet their team needs then raids just arent for them. And thats fine.

It isn't really about being willing or not. That's not the main problem. Actually tells a lot that you think so. Time and gold investment is a much bigger problem. I never had a problem with telling a warrior to run banners in GW2. Most warriors are willing to switch their build.I never had a problem in GW1 to tell another player to switch some skills., too.

Asking for a new set of equipment is a bit much to ask for. For a more casual player this is expensive, he need to farm gold (if he is going full exo), buy runes etc. Often these players spend little time, like 1 hour per week ingame. Earning the gold for a raid try might take him weeks. Just to figure out after half an hour that he does not like raids? Without guaranteed successs or at least a good chance to succeed?

"Raids aren't for them" is not fine. It would, if Anet would release maybe 10-20 dungeons with each expansion. They don't. With so little content released it means: there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.

Solution is make raids easier for all make gear mean less

[Jagblade.4627]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Jockum.1385 said:

@"zombyturtle.5980" said:

Well tbh if people arent willing to change their build to meet their team needs then raids just arent for them. And thats fine.

It isn't really about being willing or not. That's not the main problem. Actually tells a lot that you think so. Time and gold investment is a much bigger problem. I never had a problem with telling a warrior to run banners in GW2. Most warriors are willing to switch their build.I never had a problem in GW1 to tell another player to switch some skills., too.

Asking for a new set of equipment is a bit much to ask for. For a more casual player this is expensive, he need to farm gold (if he is going full exo), buy runes etc. Often these players spend little time, like 1 hour per week ingame. Earning the gold for a raid try might take him weeks. Just to figure out after half an hour that he does not like raids? Without guaranteed successs or at least a good chance to succeed?

"Raids aren't for them" is not fine. It would, if Anet would release maybe 10-20 dungeons with each expansion. They don't. With so little content released it means: there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.

Solution is make raids easier for all make gear mean less

I don't think it's quite that easy. Make raids easier across the board and you undo all of the work the more competitive players have put into it. Raids should have a version that exists as they are now, something difficult for players to enjoy who put in the effort. But there should also exist an easier version of all the raids for casual players to participate in without having to worry about limiting themselves to a meta build or full ascended gear. Having just one or the other isn't a good solution imo.

[Cyndercat.7615]

@Jockum.1385 said:

@"zombyturtle.5980" said:

Well tbh if people arent willing to change their build to meet their team needs then raids just arent for them. And thats fine.

It isn't really about being willing or not. That's not the main problem. Actually tells a lot that you think so. Time and gold investment is a much bigger problem. I never had a problem with telling a warrior to run banners in GW2. Most warriors are willing to switch their build.I never had a problem in GW1 to tell another player to switch some skills., too.

Asking for a new set of equipment is a bit much to ask for. For a more casual player this is expensive, he need to farm gold (if he is going full exo), buy runes etc. Often these players spend little time, like 1 hour per week ingame. Earning the gold for a raid try might take him weeks. Just to figure out after half an hour that he does not like raids? Without guaranteed successs or at least a good chance to succeed?

"Raids aren't for them" is not fine. It would, if Anet would release maybe 10-20 dungeons with each expansion. They don't. With so little content released it means: there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.

1hr in silverwastes is around 30g... a full set of berserker gear is 20g, including trinkets. Or they could just do dailies and it would take 5 days. I really cant believe gold of all things would be the main issue when its so so easy to come by. Time I can understand but again, if they only play 1 hr per week how do you expect to get a full squad all online at the same time to raid?

I 100% cant stand behind the idea raids need changing for people who barely play the game at all in the first place.

10-20 dungeons?? How many raids do you think are released. Raids get 1 raid per year, with 2-3 bosses. Fractals get 2 releases per year so they are mostly equal to raids atm.

' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"zombyturtle.5980" said:' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.You missed the word "teams". The content you speak of is for single player and/or zergs. There's no real new content for casual single player groups. One fulfilling the same role dungeons once fulfilled, before they became old and stale.

[Cyndercat.7615]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"zombyturtle.5980" said:' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.You missed the word "teams". The content you speak of is for single player and/or zergs. There's no real new content for casual single player

groups

. One fulfilling the same role dungeons once fulfilled, before they became old and stale.

We get 2-3 fractals a year. How is that not for teams?

And they also just released a casual raid for wintersday.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"zombyturtle.5980" said:' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.You missed the word "teams". The content you speak of is for single player and/or zergs. There's no real new content for casual single player

groups

. One fulfilling the same role dungeons once fulfilled, before they became old and stale.

I have to agree somewhat with you Astralporing. I do have to make an adjustment:

The available forced group content for casual players is limited. By its very nature group content requires more organization and commitment.

The question is, of how much value is group content when it has to fulfill following requirements:

• requires a group
• is easy enough to be considered casual
• is rewarding enough to be of interest
• is not over rewarding to unbalance other content

Those are some times almost contrary requirements. If the content is easy enough, it will not require a group (as most group content now gets already soloed with even raid bosses getting duo-ed). Dungeons sort of hit the spot after years of power-creep and low level fractals too. I don't see huge chunks of the player base flocking to those instances though.

EDIT:Wanted to write up some ideas, but might as well bring this in here since the thread is pretty new:

Was thinking of Arenanet maybe creating some kind of scale-able farm zone (similar to scaled WoW raids). Which adapts to size (or is fixed to 1, 3 or 5 potentially 10 players). Then scale rewards accordingly. Basically something people can go to when they just want to hang out and farm away as a group without the hassle of doing fractals or dungeons. Give a bit more structured roles in the zone, aka 1 tank and 1 dedicated healer for events and such (in case of 3 people: 1 tank, 1 heal, 1 dps). I think this would be a great opportunity for people to socialize or just farm away not as solo players.

The downside to this: reverting to the classic trinity meta obviously (which many players have an easier time relating to).

The upside: non open world, dungeon or fractal related content where you can actually do something as a group.

Think Silverwastes or World Bosses, but in a designated zone you run around (probably in circles as always once perfect farm routs are found) but as a group and not solo.

[Astralporing.1957]

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.You missed the word "teams". The content you speak of is for single player and/or zergs. There's no real new content for casual single player

groups

. One fulfilling the same role dungeons once fulfilled, before they became old and stale.

We get 2-3 fractals a year. How is that not for teams?Suure, Shattered Observatory was sooo much casual content [/sarcasm]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Those are some times almost contrary requirements. If the content is easy enough, it will not require a group (as most group content now gets already soloed with even raid bosses getting duo-ed). Dungeons sort of hit the spot after years of power-creep and low level fractals too. I don't see huge chunks of the player base flocking to those instances though.Because they are an old content. And as for new fractals, only one (deepstone) can really be considered casual.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.You missed the word "teams". The content you speak of is for single player and/or zergs. There's no real new content for casual single player

groups

. One fulfilling the same role dungeons once fulfilled, before they became old and stale.

We get 2-3 fractals a year. How is that not for teams?Suure, Shattered Observatory was sooo much casual content [/sarcasm]

The normal version is casual. Only because people think doing mechanics is for elitists doesn't make it less casual. Twilight Oasis has more going on during the endboss.

Are required mechanics also anti-casual now?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.You missed the word "teams". The content you speak of is for single player and/or zergs. There's no real new content for casual single player

groups

. One fulfilling the same role dungeons once fulfilled, before they became old and stale.

We get 2-3 fractals a year. How is that not for teams?Suure, Shattered Observatory was sooo much casual content [/sarcasm]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Those are some times almost contrary requirements. If the content is easy enough, it will not require a group (as most group content now gets already soloed with even raid bosses getting duo-ed). Dungeons sort of hit the spot after years of power-creep and low level fractals too. I don't see huge chunks of the player base flocking to those instances though.Because they are an old content. And as for new fractals, only one (deepstone) can really be considered casual.

True, not sure that would change the amount of people entering the content.

Hence my idea of a new type of more casual group content. Fractals just don't have the appeal to many players and open world is a very solo heavy experience. Maybe putting both together could make a nice synergy.

[yann.1946]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.You missed the word "teams". The content you speak of is for single player and/or zergs. There's no real new content for casual single player

groups

. One fulfilling the same role dungeons once fulfilled, before they became old and stale.

We get 2-3 fractals a year. How is that not for teams?Suure, Shattered Observatory was sooo much casual content [/sarcasm]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Those are some times almost contrary requirements. If the content is easy enough, it will not require a group (as most group content now gets already soloed with even raid bosses getting duo-ed). Dungeons sort of hit the spot after years of power-creep and low level fractals too. I don't see huge chunks of the player base flocking to those instances though.Because they are an old content. And as for new fractals, only one (deepstone) can really be considered casual.

Isn't that what the t1 should accomplish?

Or doesn't the existence of t1 change anything?

[Vinceman.4572]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Suure, Shattered Observatory was sooo much casual content [/sarcasm]

How on earth is lvl 25 SO not casual? You don't even need to execute the mechanics in glass cannon gear. Skorvald's hits - laughable, Virastraa marble - can be ignored completely, the explosion damage only tickles a bit, Arkk orbs can be failed, again: explosion damage is negligible. A must to get into the dome? Nope, not at all.

[Jockum.1385]

@"zombyturtle.5980" said:1hr in silverwastes is around 30g... a full set of berserker gear is 20g, including trinkets. Or they could just do dailies and it would take 5 days. I really cant believe gold of all things would be the main issue when its so so easy to come by. Time I can understand but again, if they only play 1 hr per week how do you expect to get a full squad all online at the same time to raid?

More casual players are usually not using efficient ways to farm gold. 5 dailies is still a lot for casuals. With maybe one day per week playing - usually not farming gold - it might take a few weeks to earn 20 gold. A set of scholar runes is btw. already 52 gold, your numbers seem wrong. There are budget variants, sure. But casuals are usually not very good players and on top an equipment handicap? Bad idea.All of this is an upfront investment. There is no guaranteed success and a more casual player might want to kill the boss once, not farm it weekly.

I can set up a 10 people team, that's no problem. Often there are either guildforums, a "guild activities day" per week or phonenumbers are known. It's "on 15.1.2019 were are going to do raid X at 20.00". If one or two players are missing someone brings a friend as replacement. Or you reschulde for 30.3.2019 or so.

' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.

I'm refering to team content which is lacking, not casual content in general. Same as there is lots of challenging content, as PVP seasons or WvW or PVE content as triple trouble or some achievements. But ofc is this challenging content not able to replace raids, it caters to a different kind of players. Guilds/teams are seriously lacking content in GW2. 1-2 fractals only are by far not enough. I doubt that many raid players would be happy if there would be no raids and they'd be stuck with fractals only since HoT. That's the situation more casual groups are in. They also don't enjoy repeating content hundreds of times. So even with 5 repetitions that's content for 10 weeks. Then leave the game for 10 months, waiting for new content?

Fractals are problematic bc reward structure and design (~15min content) is the same. New fractals cater imho mostly to active fractal players, but for people which feel done with fractals? Do a new fractal maybe once and that's it. Imho is a new concept needed with new unique rewards and so on. Farming tokens for bigger bags, achievements or whatever.btw. easier teamcontent also helps to reduce the gap to raids. People start to improve their equip for dungeons and fractals. They learn how to play. It just takes time and if they run out of content before they are "raid ready" they'll move into open world and forget all progress they made.

Lacking group/guildcontent is btw. a problem which you can find differently worded a lot, as recent example: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/a5mjwx/okay_one_more_im_sorry/"guildmissions". People got a guild, but nothing to do together. Casual guilds advertised for a long time with "guildmissions, dungeons, fractals". Teamcontent is very important, it helps to form a community. These people are not looking for a challange, they are looking for something to do together. That's btw not a new problem. An elderly couple of my alliance complained in 2012 shortly after release. They left for Teso afaik. Married, wanted to play something together. In GW1 we did successfully "raid" together, they posted afterwards pictures of them and their "preparations" (coffee, mozartkugeln and cake). In GW2 I wouldn't even dare to bring them into most dungeons.