[Suggestion] Mirage Cloak and Major Grandmaster traits rework

[HisRoyalDudeness.8637]

@tinyreborn.1938 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:I would rather nerf infinite horizon change mirage cloak to non invurn=sacrifise dodging for dmg

what kind of kitten is this ? Remove dodge rolls from entire class ... how such 'BRILLIANT' idea ... why you arent hired to anet balance team yet?

@HisRoyalDudeness.8637HisRoyalDudeness.8637The changes I suggest are not meant to be "a hit" to mirage.More like a nuke from orbit and make sure no one ever would play mirage ,even in pveAnd I'd rather like to see mirage reaching a state where it's easier to balanceMore like easier to be farmed in pvp with 2 broken hands?This thread makes me facepalm ...Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite Horizon.Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite HorizonDune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite HorizonDune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite HorizonDune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite HorizonI'm quotted enough time to invalidate every OP ideas ?! Since you dont get it ,its not taken because both EM/dune cloak are trash

Laila is trolling, feeding him is not beneficial.

Explain how it would "nuke mirage from orbit", why "nobody would play it in PvE" and how it would reach a state where it's "easier to be farmed in PvP with 2 broken hands". Is any of the issues listed invalid? Are the suggested changes a bad way of solving the issues? Why?

Dune Cloak design is fine in the context of issues I listed above, since it does not cause them. IH being superior to both EM and DC is what I was saying, commenting before actually reading my initial post is not beneficial in any way.

If any of my ideas presented is invalid in any way, it does not invalidate any of the others. This is a logical fallacy, based on your cognitive bias.

[tinyreborn.1938]

@HisRoyalDudeness.8637 said:

@tinyreborn.1938 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:I would rather nerf infinite horizon change mirage cloak to non invurn=sacrifise dodging for dmg

what kind of kitten is this ? Remove dodge rolls from entire class ... how such 'BRILLIANT' idea ... why you arent hired to anet balance team yet?

@HisRoyalDudeness.8637HisRoyalDudeness.8637The changes I suggest are not meant to be "a hit" to mirage.More like a nuke from orbit and make sure no one ever would play mirage ,even in pveAnd I'd rather like to see mirage reaching a state where it's easier to balanceMore like easier to be farmed in pvp with 2 broken hands?This thread makes me facepalm ...Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite Horizon.Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite HorizonDune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite HorizonDune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite HorizonDune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite HorizonI'm quotted enough time to invalidate every OP ideas ?! Since you dont get it ,its not taken because both EM/dune cloak are trash

Laila is trolling, feeding him is not beneficial.

Explain how it would "nuke mirage from orbit", why "nobody would play it in PvE" and how it would reach a state where it's "easier to be farmed in PvP with 2 broken hands". Is any of the issues listed invalid? Are the suggested changes a bad way of solving the issues? Why?

Dune Cloak design is fine in the context of issues I listed above, since it does not cause them. IH being superior to both EM and DC is what I was saying, commenting before actually reading my initial post is not beneficial in any way.

If any of my ideas presented is invalid in any way, it does not invalidate any of the others. This is a logical fallacy, based on your cognitive bias.I really should tell people why trash is trash and explain that in detail... ? I have other stuff to doIn short IH would become unreliable trash , for pve damage loss will be insane(just like in pvp) since YOU want clones to be even more braindead than they are alrdy. Spam clones and only then you are allowed to take advantage of your ambush ,amazing idea , give this lad award for most stupid idea please.Oh ye, clones die in 1 autoattack , what an amazing trait it would be !IH power depends on current amount of clones , 0 clones, nothing happen ,magik .Dune cloak is just a pathetic copy of vent exhaust engi trait , that have lower damage in power and condition and doesnt even suits mesmer playstyle.

Feel free to not respond with your nonsense in style 'you are just biased' , I have more important stuff to do than talking with a brick

[HisRoyalDudeness.8637]

@tinyreborn.1938 said:

@HisRoyalDudeness.8637 said:

@tinyreborn.1938 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:I would rather nerf infinite horizon change mirage cloak to non invurn=sacrifise dodging for dmg

what kind of kitten is this ? Remove dodge rolls from entire class ... how such 'BRILLIANT' idea ... why you arent hired to anet balance team yet?

@HisRoyalDudeness.8637HisRoyalDudeness.8637The changes I suggest are not meant to be "a hit" to mirage.More like a nuke from orbit and make sure no one ever would play mirage ,even in pveAnd I'd rather like to see mirage reaching a state where it's easier to balanceMore like easier to be farmed in pvp with 2 broken hands?This thread makes me facepalm ...Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite Horizon.Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite HorizonDune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite HorizonDune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite HorizonDune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite HorizonI'm quotted enough time to invalidate every OP ideas ?! Since you dont get it ,its not taken because both EM/dune cloak are trash

Laila is trolling, feeding him is not beneficial.

Explain how it would "nuke mirage from orbit", why "nobody would play it in PvE" and how it would reach a state where it's "easier to be farmed in PvP with 2 broken hands". Is any of the issues listed invalid? Are the suggested changes a bad way of solving the issues? Why?

Dune Cloak design is fine in the context of issues I listed above, since it does not cause them. IH being superior to both EM and DC is what I was saying, commenting before actually reading my initial post is not beneficial in any way.

If any of my ideas presented is invalid in any way, it does not invalidate any of the others. This is a logical fallacy, based on your cognitive bias.I really should tell people why trash is trash and explain that in detail... ? I have other stuff to doIn short IH would become unreliable trash , for pve damage loss will be insane(just like in pvp) since YOU want clones to be even more braindead than they are alrdy. Spam clones and only then you are allowed to take advantage of your ambush ,amazing idea , give this lad award for most stupid idea please.Oh ye, clones die in 1 autoattack , what an amazing trait it would be !IH power depends on current amount of clones , 0 clones, nothing happen ,magik .Dune cloak is just a pathetic copy of vent exhaust engi trait , that have lower damage in power and condition and doesnt even suits mesmer playstyle.

Feel free to not respond with your nonsense in style 'you are just biased' , I have more important stuff to do than talking with a brick

I find your way of communication unsuitable for a constructive discussion. This is not meant to be a "I am gonna invalidate you because it makes me feel good" kind of game. If you have other stuff to do, not commenting at all is a better alternative to what you are doing now.I don't want anything, I am merely presenting a case for it to be taken into account, dismantled, played with, brainstormed about, reshaped and a conclusion to be reached. I still don't see how IH would be nerfed by the change in PvE however... If it's caused by my limited perception, I ask you to widen it for me.Speaking of DC, your argument falls under the "major grandmaster traits have no personality" issue listed in my initial post.

We are all biased, it's in our nature. I am but pointing out a specific case for you in your argumentation. No hard feelings.

Also:"Spam clones and only then you are allowed to take advantage of your ambush" confuses me. With my suggestion, the ambush skill without clones would remain the same as it is now. Please, clarify what you are talking about.

[phokus.8934]

@SteepledHat.1345 said:

@phokus.8934 said:There’s no problem with IH or clones using ambush skills.

Mirage Cloak I think everyone can agree with that you shouldn’t be able to dodge while cc’d without Elusive Mind.

I don't. Every spec of mirage is at it's weakest already. It doesn't need anymore hits. Quite honestly, the community just needs to get better.

I honestly think that they didn't expect MC to work through cc but can't figure out how to fix that without breaking other areas of the game. Which is why EM exists as a trait.

Say for dodging while cc'd and maybe axe 2 spam, there's not much else that would need to be really looked at.

[tinyreborn.1938]

@"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:I don't want anything, I am merely presenting a case for it to be taken into account, dismantled, played with, brainstormed about, reshaped and a conclusion to be reached.I wonder how.... Especially defeating purpose of mirage if traited IH to not give away real mesmer among clones while doding since all clones would go AFK and everyone would see real one from another planet. Or you are unable to find real one that actually moving/jumping/ using skils ? And you tell me about being biased . LOLI still don't see how IH would be nerfed by the change in PvE however... If it's caused by my limited perception, I ask you to widen it for me.Mirage dps heavily depends on clones to do damage/bleeds procs from multiple attacks/ambush ,do you play pve? Clones would be AFK every few seconds you use ambush ,clones dont hit anymore and dont proc bleeds/ambush,how with your change mirage would do damage? What insane numbers your personal ambush will have? Apply 40 torments/40 bleeds to be on par with others? In pvp we will have same numbers I hope ? xDSpeaking of DC, your argument falls under the "major grandmaster traits have no personality" issue listed in my initial post.Your suggestions doesnt help to fix it, its need to be new and unique but instead its copypaste and weaker than another version.20% deception recharge must been on self deception trait , thief have similar trait in daredevil spec reducing all new daredevil specific utilities/heal/elite to have reduced recharge AND give a bit of endurance for its use. Mesmer get pathetic clone with a condition on it ,to spawn it. Deceptive evasion two, some1 out of ideas for new elite specs .AlsoSand Shards is used 1/2 into Mirage Cloak rather than from the start. Has a distinct "charging-up" animation, making the opponent know something is coming, effectively baiting a dodge while also making him know what trait he is facing.Why there should be 'charging' animation ? You are again want to give away real mesmer instant as he use dodge . Why opponents must know what we are playing ...? They alrdy see if clones are dodging/ambushing or not, if we have exhaust after cc or not or they dont even notice this DC xDDDDDDDDWe are all biased, it's in our nature. I am but pointing out a specific case for you in your argumentation. No hard feelings.Hardly biased , you can't foresee consequence of your suggestions even . Your IH/Dune cloak defeat purpose of being mesmer , you could just ask paint real mesmer in red color so it would be easier to spot

[Curunen.8729]

@"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:Anyway, I still don't see one single constructive comment here, this is failing as a brainstorming/giving info to devs topic miserably.

I've made a list of issues I see with the designI've stated how I would like to handle themI've given suggestions on how it could be done.

It's but an idea. A food for thought. A "look at this guys, let's try to figure something out" kind of situation.If you see problems in what I am presenting, it's beneficial to say why:Is the core issue with the design listed invalid? Why?Is the way I am trying to handle it wrong? Why?Are the suggestions unfit to solve the issues in the way I want to handle them? In what way and how it could be handled better?

I feel like I am just repeating myself over and over again.

That's a bit rude tbh, people have given feedback even if some is in disagreement.

I can restate the same feedback - I believe the visual effect of clones ambushing with the mirage is an excellent thematic design and should remain in the game, whether as an optional trait or redesigned to be the backbone of the spec. I am not bothered by the visual effects when fighting against an IH mirage and have no issue with targeting etc. Sure if you want to offload the damage portion to the mesmer's ambush only then this is ok - which means clones would ambush for the visual effect but do little/no damage or cc, though this to me seems a case of reducing clone ambush damage/cc/condi and shifting more of it to the player.

I don't agree on the one point of mortrialus regarding DE/IH synergy, where to me it is a good mechanic to for example dodge and move forward to benefit from the boons from a DE spawned staff clone ambushing behind you. For the record it wouldn't bother me if this was changed, I just don't think it needs to be.

I support your decision on EM allowing dodge while cc as is currently standard on mirage, removing this feature from the base spec, and thus removing the exhaustion - although again this would cause it to be a "must have" trait in pvp/wvw, overshadowing anything else, which may or may not be a new problem.

And I agree with your changes to Dune Cloak, but don't agree there should be a 20% Deception cooldown tacked on there because I don't believe any of the Deception skills need this currently, unless they all suddenly get nerfed to much higher cooldowns.

Overall I believe that by the next expansion elite specs drop, Mirage ought to have a much deeper rework to traits and the foundation - because sadly it seems that no iteration of these GM major traits is going to provide the necessary variety while being balanced, when mirage has the ability to dodge while cced baseline, and two of the GM traits are fighting for best in slot due to enabling such fundamental game changing features (clone ambush and dodge while cced or breaking cc).

[HisRoyalDudeness.8637]

@tinyreborn.1938 said:

@"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:I don't

want

anything, I am merely presenting a case for it to be taken into account, dismantled, played with, brainstormed about, reshaped and a conclusion to be reached.I wonder how.... Especially defeating purpose of mirage if traited IH to not give away real mesmer among clones while doding since all clones would go AFK and everyone would see real one from another planet. Or you are unable to find real one that actually moving/jumping/ using skils ? And you tell me about being biased . LOLI still don't see how IH would be nerfed by the change in PvE however... If it's caused by my limited perception, I ask you to widen it for me.Mirage dps heavily depends on clones to do damage/bleeds procs from multiple attacks/ambush ,do you play pve? Clones would be AFK every few seconds you use ambush ,clones dont hit anymore and dont proc bleeds/ambush,how with your change mirage would do damage? What insane numbers your personal ambush will have? Apply 40 torments/40 bleeds to be on par with others? In pvp we will have same numbers I hope ? xDSpeaking of DC, your argument falls under the "major grandmaster traits have no personality" issue listed in my initial post.Your suggestions doesnt help to fix it, its need to be new and unique but instead its copypaste and weaker than another version.20% deception recharge must been on self deception trait , thief have similar trait in daredevil spec reducing all new daredevil specific utilities/heal/elite to have reduced recharge AND give a bit of endurance for its use. Mesmer get pathetic clone with a condition on it ,to spawn it. Deceptive evasion two, some1 out of ideas for new elite specs .AlsoSand Shards is used 1/2 into Mirage Cloak rather than from the start. Has a distinct "charging-up" animation, making the opponent know something is coming, effectively baiting a dodge while also making him know what trait he is facing.Why there should be 'charging' animation ? You are again want to give away real mesmer instant as he use dodge . Why opponents must know what we are playing ...? They alrdy see if clones are dodging/ambushing or not, if we have exhaust after cc or not or they dont even notice this DC xDDDDDDDDWe are all biased, it's in our nature. I am but pointing out a specific case for you in your argumentation. No hard feelings.Hardly biased , you can't foresee consequence of your suggestions even . Your IH/Dune cloak defeat purpose of being mesmer , you could just ask paint real mesmer in red color so it would be easier to spot

In the case of IH in PvE:There's damage from clones autoattacking while not under the effect of mirage cloak, there's damage from clones using ambush skill under the effect of mirage cloak and there's damage from a player using ambush skill. For simplification, let's say they each deal 1k dps - 1000+1000+1000=3000After the suggested change, there's damage from clones autoattacking while not under the effect of mirage cloak, no damage from clones being under the effect of mirage cloak and there's damage from a player using his empowered ambush skill. In this case, the damage from clones' ambush skill is transferred into player's ambush skill - 1000+0+2000=3000Still can't see the loss of dps.

The "charging up animation" was my half-baked attempt at modifiing the current design to make it mode "trickster-like" (baiting dodges, as stated before). Can understand the issue with the real mesmer being easily identifiable though. That's why I am asking for feedback and alternative suggestions.The same goes for the suggested IH change - it's but a suggestion, aimed to reduce the visual clutter. Do you think the "bad trickster class design through visual clutter" and "new players unable to learn from the fight" points listed above are invalid? Or do you have any ideas of your own how it could be handled better?As I've already stated many times before, the suggestions listed by me are but a draft version.

As someone who is interested in psychology, neurology and the mechanisms that define human perception and behavior, I am of the opinion that we are all biased, so no point for you taking my statement personally. There are many cognitive biases that may not even fall under your concept of "bias", making you misinterpret what I am talking about. If interested, here's this for starters:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

[HisRoyalDudeness.8637]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:Anyway, I still don't see one single constructive comment here, this is failing as a brainstorming/giving info to devs topic miserably.

I've made a list of issues I see with the designI've stated how I would like to handle themI've given suggestions on how it could be done.

It's but an idea. A food for thought. A "look at this guys, let's try to figure something out" kind of situation.If you see problems in what I am presenting, it's beneficial to say why:Is the core issue with the design listed invalid? Why?Is the way I am trying to handle it wrong? Why?Are the suggestions unfit to solve the issues in the way I want to handle them? In what way and how it could be handled better?

I feel like I am just repeating myself over and over again.

That's a bit rude tbh, people have given feedback even if some is in disagreement.

I can restate the same feedback - I believe the visual effect of clones ambushing with the mirage is an excellent thematic design and should remain in the game, whether as an optional trait or redesigned to be the backbone of the spec. I am not bothered by the visual effects when fighting against an IH mirage and have no issue with targeting etc. Sure if you want to offload the damage portion to the mesmer's ambush only then this is ok - which means clones would ambush for the visual effect but do little/no damage or cc, though this to me seems a case of reducing clone ambush damage/cc/condi and shifting more of it to the player.

I don't agree on the one point of mortrialus regarding DE/IH synergy, where to me it is a good mechanic to for example dodge and move forward to benefit from the boons from a DE spawned staff clone ambushing behind you. For the record it wouldn't bother me if this was changed, I just don't think it needs to be.

I support your decision on EM allowing dodge while cc as is currently standard on mirage, removing this feature from the base spec, and thus removing the exhaustion - although again this would cause it to be a "must have" trait in pvp/wvw, overshadowing anything else, which may or may not be a new problem.

And I agree with your changes to Dune Cloak, but don't agree there should be a 20% Deception cooldown tacked on there because I don't believe any of the Deception skills need this currently, unless they all suddenly get nerfed to much higher cooldowns.

Overall I believe that by the next expansion elite specs drop, Mirage ought to have a much deeper rework to traits and the foundation - because sadly it seems that no iteration of these GM major traits is going to provide the necessary variety while being balanced, when mirage has the ability to dodge while cced baseline, and two of the GM traits are fighting for best in slot due to enabling such fundamental game changing features (clone ambush and dodge while cced or breaking cc).

I did not mean to be rude and I apologize if it is the feeling you are getting from my style of communication.It's just that I couldn't really use any of the feedback to modify the structure of my draft version, since there's no information to work with in that context in the feedback given by most people.

Thanks for your feedback.

[tinyreborn.1938]

@HisRoyalDudeness.8637 said:Your 'cant see dps loss' need to be seen on practice first XD@Curunen.8729 said:^ I pretty much agree with this lad.Dont have issues with IH visuals as well .Just increase CD for Illusionary ambush to 30 and slap 20% cd reduction on self deception.

[HisRoyalDudeness.8637]

@tinyreborn.1938 said:

@HisRoyalDudeness.8637 said:Your 'cant see dps loss' need to be seen on practice first XD@Curunen.8729 said:^ I pretty much agree with this lad.Dont have issues with IH visuals as well .Just increase CD for Illusionary ambush to 30 and slap 20% cd reduction on self deception.

What's your base for stating the DPS would be lower then, if there's no theoretical reason for it to be so?

[Hot Boy.7138]

this suggestion is a no from me dog

[SteepledHat.1345]

This thread is a heavy attempt at disguising complete destruction of mesmer. I'm sick of this crap.

[HisRoyalDudeness.8637]

@SteepledHat.1345 said:This thread is a heavy attempt at disguising complete destruction of mesmer. I'm sick of this kitten.

It's an attempt at starting a constructive discussion. An attempt that failed miserably, since there are not enough people to really understand what I was aiming for.

[Curunen.8729]

@HisRoyalDudeness.8637 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@HisRoyalDudeness.8637 said:Anyway, I still don't see one single constructive comment here, this is failing as a brainstorming/giving info to devs topic miserably.

I've made a list of issues I see with the designI've stated how I would like to handle themI've given suggestions on how it could be done.

It's but an idea. A food for thought. A "look at this guys, let's try to figure something out" kind of situation.If you see problems in what I am presenting, it's beneficial to say why:Is the core issue with the design listed invalid? Why?Is the way I am trying to handle it wrong? Why?Are the suggestions unfit to solve the issues in the way I want to handle them? In what way and how it could be handled better?

I feel like I am just repeating myself over and over again.

That's a bit rude tbh, people have given feedback even if some is in disagreement.

I can restate the same feedback - I believe the visual effect of clones ambushing with the mirage is an excellent thematic design and should remain in the game, whether as an optional trait or redesigned to be the backbone of the spec. I am not bothered by the visual effects when fighting against an IH mirage and have no issue with targeting etc. Sure if you want to offload the damage portion to the mesmer's ambush only then this is ok - which means clones would ambush for the visual effect but do little/no damage or cc, though this to me seems a case of reducing clone ambush damage/cc/condi and shifting more of it to the player.

I don't agree on the one point of mortrialus regarding DE/IH synergy, where to me it is a good mechanic to for example dodge and move forward to benefit from the boons from a DE spawned staff clone ambushing behind you. For the record it wouldn't bother me if this was changed, I just don't think it needs to be.

I support your decision on EM allowing dodge while cc as is currently standard on mirage, removing this feature from the base spec, and thus removing the exhaustion - although again this would cause it to be a "must have" trait in pvp/wvw, overshadowing anything else, which may or may not be a new problem.

And I agree with your changes to Dune Cloak, but don't agree there should be a 20% Deception cooldown tacked on there because I don't believe any of the Deception skills need this currently, unless they all suddenly get nerfed to much higher cooldowns.

Overall I believe that by the next expansion elite specs drop, Mirage ought to have a much deeper rework to traits and the foundation - because sadly it seems that no iteration of these GM major traits is going to provide the necessary variety while being balanced, when mirage has the ability to dodge while cced baseline, and two of the GM traits are fighting for best in slot due to enabling such fundamental game changing features (clone ambush and dodge while cced or breaking cc).

I did not mean to be rude and I apologize if it is the feeling you are getting from my style of communication.It's just that I couldn't really use any of the feedback to modify the structure of my draft version, since there's no information to work with in that context in the feedback given by most people.

Thanks for your feedback.

It's ok I can appreciate when you've put a lot of effort into typing up solutions you've spent time thinking about only to have it come up against a brick wall in a forum - so its all good and thank you for stimulating some fresh and needed discussion in here which I hope continues to provide incentive for the devs to make some deeper changes, to mirage at least, in the future. :)

[SteepledHat.1345]

No, this is about what it always is. Making mesmer unviable in an attempt to help unskilled silvers and below.

[HisRoyalDudeness.8637]

@SteepledHat.1345 said:No, this is about what it always is. Making mesmer unviable in an attempt to help unskilled silvers and below.

The way you interpret it changes nothing on the real reason I started this topic, my intentions behind it and what I wanted to accomplish with it.

[Nepster.4275]

@HisRoyalDudeness.8637 said:

@Nepster.4275 said:People are still mad because mirage can dodge while being CCd...Okey. You are mad because other classes cant do that, right? Sure, but you know, other classes walk around minimum of 2000 stability stacks and aegis spam. Mirage is a visual cluster, okey... This is a thing what makes mirage into a trickster class, you cant play carlessly, since if you waste your dodge on offense then you will get CCd after 3 second and you cant do nothing about it only if you use EM, but with that you will get deleted because you will be unable to dodge. T

he rework of IH trait is interesting since you said empower the illusions, so can you explain how? I mean, clones do no damage so you can empower them by condition apply, phantasms do damage, but for that you would need to dodge immediately after creating a phantasm so it means you would break your combo for nothing basically because phantasms can get blocked or dodged, so you wasted a defensive game mechanic(dodge) for offensive purpose and its still not sure weither it will hit or no.

If you mean to use the illusions without any real use only to have them as a 3 stack damage modify, then its okey too...Just give mirage some other defensive traits

I dont know why people are so obsessed with mirage and its state...It was not even considered as META till the 11/12 patch because boonbeast and holo was too good against basically any class.Even people who played mirage on a high level said that its basically useless against meta classes.If for example a mirage(no matter if power or condi) plays against a same skill level boonbeast or holo there is very little chance of the mirage to win(maybe after the patch it has significantly better chance but still not 100%)

Stop with your argument ad hominem right there.I am not mad and if I was, it does not matter in this discussion. I've always played mesmer almost exclusively, the same applies to mirage from the PoF release. This neither matters at all.I've stated my take on the issues, everything you need to work with is in the initial post in this topic. Avoid trying to take into account any attitude and sentiment I might or might not have on this topic.

Trickster class based on visual clutter rather than skillful use of tools is, in my opinion, a bad design.. As stated in the initial post. If you take issues with this point, please clarify why.You can do a lot of thinks when caught in hard CC: Blink away, Illusionary Ambush away, Jaunt away, use Signed of Midnight, Distortion, daze with Diversion, daze with Power Lock, blind with any shatter through Blinding Dissipation.With the suggested IH change, the illusions would still autoattack as usual, only the current clone ambush skill damage would be transferred into your ambush skill.. But as I've already said, it's but a suggestion, ready to be dismantled and changed through discussion.

There are many busted classes and mechanics in this game, this topic however focuses on the mirage.

Sorry if you felt offensive things from what i said, all i tried to say is that there are more classes that can do what mirage can do but in other ways, for example take a less meta class: Thief. The thing with mirage, is that you are limited with the amount of blinks and stunbreaks. As with other classes, so even if thief cant dodge while CCd it can break stuns BUT a thief never should get CCd since you have like unlimited amount of tools to jump between the two sides of the map. Mesmer so Mirage too should be a dueling profession, thats why you need to have tools such as F4 and things like that like dodge while CCd, this makes Mirage unique, i could say again that mesmers dont have tools in its kit that other classes have, but this is what it means to play different classes, so you have better options on what you want to do. Mirage is still not something that cant be destroyed by any other class if that other class is played good. Yes, IH MAYBE is a bit overtuned, but there are 2 things with that: 1st is that its a grandmaster trait so it should give you an edge when you choose it compared to a minor trait, 2nd thats the ONLY usable trait in the whole traitline, like, if you think about it the whole mirage traitline does not give you anything big, only the new dodge and IH and some condition damage. Mirage getting nerfed since launch almost, can we just all stop asking for more? Because i can understand that some people getting fustrated when they get one shot by a mirage BUT on the other side of the map a slb and a support fb is 2v4 ing your team without any problems.As far as i know, mirage is only good against unorganized teams, if the enemy team is premade they focus you down to a level where you get chain CCd and you cant escape with anything because of pulls, and in the middle of a teamfight 2second evade will not save your life, especially if you tried to do some damage by using your dodge.Mirage has problems yes, but those are mostly problems that not needed to be nerfed but buffed or changed

[cryorion.9532]

Sorry for this not being constructive and slightly off topic, but this is official forum. No matter how good and well thought your idea/feedback/etc is, there will always be special snowflake who doesn't want their bubble bursted. Some people just avoid using common sense for the sake of unhealthy gameplay."I am mirage main, I don't want my build to be nerfed because I like to faceroll, getting easy kills with broken designs" basically.

[HisRoyalDudeness.8637]

@Nepster.4275 said:

@HisRoyalDudeness.8637 said:

@Nepster.4275 said:People are still mad because mirage can dodge while being CCd...Okey. You are mad because other classes cant do that, right? Sure, but you know, other classes walk around minimum of 2000 stability stacks and aegis spam. Mirage is a visual cluster, okey... This is a thing what makes mirage into a trickster class, you cant play carlessly, since if you waste your dodge on offense then you will get CCd after 3 second and you cant do nothing about it only if you use EM, but with that you will get deleted because you will be unable to dodge. T

he rework of IH trait is interesting since you said empower the illusions, so can you explain how? I mean, clones do no damage so you can empower them by condition apply, phantasms do damage, but for that you would need to dodge immediately after creating a phantasm so it means you would break your combo for nothing basically because phantasms can get blocked or dodged, so you wasted a defensive game mechanic(dodge) for offensive purpose and its still not sure weither it will hit or no.

If you mean to use the illusions without any real use only to have them as a 3 stack damage modify, then its okey too...Just give mirage some other defensive traits

I dont know why people are so obsessed with mirage and its state...It was not even considered as META till the 11/12 patch because boonbeast and holo was too good against basically any class.Even people who played mirage on a high level said that its basically useless against meta classes.If for example a mirage(no matter if power or condi) plays against a same skill level boonbeast or holo there is very little chance of the mirage to win(maybe after the patch it has significantly better chance but still not 100%)

Stop with your argument ad hominem right there.I am not mad and if I was, it does not matter in this discussion. I've always played mesmer almost exclusively, the same applies to mirage from the PoF release. This neither matters at all.I've stated my take on the issues, everything you need to work with is in the initial post in this topic. Avoid trying to take into account any attitude and sentiment I might or might not have on this topic.

Trickster class based on visual clutter rather than skillful use of tools is, in my opinion, a bad design.. As stated in the initial post. If you take issues with this point, please clarify why.You can do a lot of thinks when caught in hard CC: Blink away, Illusionary Ambush away, Jaunt away, use Signed of Midnight, Distortion, daze with Diversion, daze with Power Lock, blind with any shatter through Blinding Dissipation.With the suggested IH change, the illusions would still autoattack as usual, only the current clone ambush skill damage would be transferred into your ambush skill.. But as I've already said, it's but a suggestion, ready to be dismantled and changed through discussion.

There are many busted classes and mechanics in this game, this topic however focuses on the mirage.

Sorry if you felt offensive things from what i said, all i tried to say is that there are more classes that can do what mirage can do but in other ways, for example take a less meta class: Thief. The thing with mirage, is that you are limited with the amount of blinks and stunbreaks. As with other classes, so even if thief cant dodge while CCd it can break stuns BUT a thief never should get CCd since you have like unlimited amount of tools to jump between the two sides of the map. Mesmer so Mirage too should be a dueling profession, thats why you need to have tools such as F4 and things like that like dodge while CCd, this makes Mirage unique, i could say again that mesmers dont have tools in its kit that other classes have, but this is what it means to play different classes, so you have better options on what you want to do. Mirage is still not something that cant be destroyed by any other class if that other class is played good. Yes, IH MAYBE is a bit overtuned, but there are 2 things with that: 1st is that its a grandmaster trait so it should give you an edge when you choose it compared to a minor trait, 2nd thats the ONLY usable trait in the whole traitline, like, if you think about it the whole mirage traitline does not give you anything big, only the new dodge and IH and some condition damage. Mirage getting nerfed since launch almost, can we just all stop asking for more? Because i can understand that some people getting fustrated when they get one shot by a mirage BUT on the other side of the map a slb and a support fb is 2v4 ing your team without any problems.As far as i know, mirage is only good against unorganized teams, if the enemy team is premade they focus you down to a level where you get chain CCd and you cant escape with anything because of pulls, and in the middle of a teamfight 2second evade will not save your life, especially if you tried to do some damage by using your dodge.Mirage has problems yes, but those are mostly problems that not needed to be nerfed but buffed or changed

It was not about you being offensive (if you were, I was not offended by it), it's just that argument ad hominem is counterproductive to any constructive discussion.

This topic is not about nerfing the mirage, the "buff and change" is fine if it accomplishes positive things. This topic is about finding a way to fix issues with the current design in the best way possible.

This is the structure we are dealing with in this topic:

1. First we need to establish whether the list of issues I've presented is valid or not. Do you see any of my points as irrelevant? What are your reasons? Can you think of any other issues I forgot to add on the list?
2. When we have established our list of relevant issues with the design that need fixing, we can derive a vision from them. If the issues listed are valid but you see my vision derived from them as invalid, why is it? What other vision do you have?
3. When we have established both the issues in a need of fixing and a vision we would like to reach, we can start making suggestions - what changes to make to fix the issues and reach the vision in the best way possible. If you don't see my listed issues as invalid, you think my vision does not need any changes, but you don't like the suggestions I've presented, why and what changes do you yourself propose to avoid the problems you see in my suggestions and to reach the vision through fixing the issues in a better way?

The initial post in this topic is literally this - a draft version of this, so we have something to start with.

[Safandula.8723]

WOW, im impressed u pointed out all problems with mirage.I love mesmer, but i think mirage is so badly designed i feel pretty bad when i even think about it. Rly not fun to play against. ( unless ur thief)I would love to see ur ideas come to the game, i think its rly good.Ability to dodge while stunned is the worst designed thing it this game(right next to stealth on dodge). And to do everything, while being in dodge. As u said, becouse of the mechanic design its really hard to balance, and whole class need some rework.Totally +++

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

As a trickster class, mesmer's clones are only as useful as they can be mistaken for the player. They do minimal damage and are squishy by design.

When I first tried mirage, I wasn't a fan of MC's "dodge in place" mechanic, and missed the dodge roll that physically got you out of harm's way. But I soon realized how useful IH was for the sole purpose of maintaining the facade that are clones, which more closely mimicked player behavior. Nothing gives away the real mesmer like a dodge roll.

I think reducing visual clutter is a worthwhile goal, but not at the expense of gutting a fundamental class concept. Also, the idea of shifting damage away from clones and to the player might result in an unintended buff. Again, clones are so fragile (easily killed by auto-attacks, AOEs, cleaves), their damage contributions are easily lost. Letting the player apply their damage would mean greater likelihood of hitting for full damage.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Curunen.8729 said:Personally I'd rather IH be a baseline mirage mechanic (eg grandmaster minor trait), then shuffle and adapt the rest of the spec around that, nerfing where necessary.

This would make mirage so much easier to balance.As it stands with IH optional, ambush attacks are either weak or too good.

But I guess ANet rather take suggestions from people who have no clue about mesmer.

[Heartpains.7312]

You know, at some point in the game I forgot skills like GS5 etc, thanks to stability, specially the automatic stability or the spammed ones. I am pretty sure warriors wasn't even getting hit by hard cc to begin with due to the stability =p

There is always the thief, I don't know it could be me and my latency not making be able to touch them but their evade build is fun to fight, oh take away the MC dodge while hard cc while not traited and it would be even more fun. Or when you actually fight a thief that knows what he is doing in general. (evade thief fight seems more random and hoping to land a skill on them) you can argue with that point but it is.

Also IH as it is right now makes illusion attacks worthy (makes illusions worth looking being illusions and not just for shattering), I don't know if your list of issues is listed based on condi or power but I think as condi.

Hell return the mantras and the traits as they used to be and I will probably still play the old mantra build with core Mesmer or chrono lol

How about instead of changing the whole class we start with these issues first and see in wvw at least. ( I don't know about spvp since it is not enjoyable for me ever since HoT)Change dire/trailblaizer tankinessRemove the damn power and condi mixed stats.And stop adding some useless stats maybe??? (Bringer's) precision, vitality and expertise.

And keep mirage cloak as it is, don't make it normal dodge, because if you removed the dodging while having cc people will not stop complaining. MIRAGE IS OP CAN INSTA KILL WHILE DODGE, this is the sort of things we would here.

As for Dune cloak with its current stats can they just say it is bugged and disable it? so it doesn't attract some people to it xD