Few small scale builds that need a nerf hammer

Kylden Ar.3724 · February 7, 2019

@"gebrechen.5643" said:The only reasonable change I see for this is to apply the pvp templates and armor/sigil/food restrictions on wvw.You can't balance a soulbeast in the current state of the game for wvw without removing things like "Diviner Armor". Soulbeast is so strong in many aspects of its existence, boon application, boon access, mobility, damage, damage modifiers, stealth access and all of those are connected to armor stats, sigils, runes and food.This problem applies to most builds that are considered too strong at the moment.You sure could rework that by rework all the classes with all the different builds. But we all know that won't happen. So let's go the smart way and use the pvp system on wvw. Limited to some armor stats, only some runes, no food.

I keep saying this and agree fully, but just so you know to a few Baby Boomer style WvW vets here, what you just said is Anathema and will be shouted down.

Acyk.9671 · February 7, 2019

deleted

apharma.3741 · February 8, 2019

@Acyk.9671 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Sylosi.6503 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Sylosi.6503 said:So you've played thousands of hours yet still don't understand they barely balance for WvW and what little changes they do make are for large scale, not roaming.
Then beyond that the actual real difference between PvP and roaming when it comes to balance is not a few skill splits, it is that the game mode itself - conquest is the thing that balances most of the stuff that is broken in WvW roaming like excessive mobility, stealth, etc. Which of course you can't bring over to WvW, so just accept that WvW is always going to be trash tier for PvP / balance, because guess what it hasn't changed in 6 years so is not going to magically change now.

No, CA having 10s CD so giving 30% stealth and superspeed uptime with Celestial Shadow was a problem in PvP and is still a problem in WvW. Ancient seeds likewise is still an issue in WvW and was an issue in PvP till they nerfed it. Nearly everything listed in the thread is an issue in PvP and an issue in small scale WvW because they are simply too strong.

You could change all of those and roaming in WvW will still be laughably imbalanced, because the game was designed around conquest and that is what provides the real balance to a lot of things that have always been completely imbalanced in WvW.

For example take any class / build that can disengage very easily, in WvW that is completely broken. If I am on one of those classes/builds and I engage on someone then if I screw up or get outplayed, then unless I get blown up I can usually disengage (if I want). So basically the other player is not rewarded for outplaying me and I am not punished for playing poorly, that breaks one of the most fundamental principles in games - risk vs reward. (And to really add to the broken in some situations once I have disengaged I can then come back and try again, and if he makes a mistake he is screwed, one of the main reasons roaming died in this game long ago)

Now the same classes / builds can still disengage easily in PvP, the difference is you get punished for it and your opponent gets rewarded for it, because they win / keep the capture point, you have been inefficient for the last X seconds and their team's score ticks along.

The fact is the devs have demonstrated that they're not capable of maintaining 3 different balance states. This isn't me taking a dump on them, they work hard to do what they do but they simply don't have the capacity to balance 3 different game modes and maintain the expansion cadence they have. The best thing they can do is unify competitive game mode balance, yes it will create problems in WvW but it will fix more than it will break given WvW allows food, stat combos, runes and sigils.

No one is capable of balancing for 3 different game modes in a game like GW2, it is not possible without completely redesigning how the trait/skill/weapon systems work.

But face it they don't try, anyone awake who for example watched the Twitch streams they did for the first year or so after balance patches or who watched Sacrx's video about alpha, knows pre-HoT the the game was virtually entirely balanced around their "e-sport". Then only when they decided to add raids to PvE with HoT did they also start balancing / designing for that, there has never been any serious attempt to balance WvW just the odd crumb and some lip service. Which to be fair is all that should be expected as mentioned previously it is not possible to balance 3 very different game modes (then different things within them like large scale vs roaming). Frankly you can't even balance for 2 modes, which is part of the reason why PvP in themepark MMORPGs has the reputation does.

Lastly your changes listed above are an example of the problems they have, take CA for instance is the cooldown too short for roaming, possibly, however for guild raids / blobs no it isn't too short, something like Druid is already only mediocre at best in those situations.

Roaming will be imbalanced even if you bring over PvP changes but at least a lot of the worst offenders will be toned down. High stealth DE is also being complained about in PvP so it's not like these things are exclusive to WvW.

While Firebrand exists in it's current form giving so much simply for taking the line many other supports will find it extremely difficult to be included in a blob. Besides so long as druid is capable in a smaller scale fight there's no issue, not every spec has to be good in every situation so long as you can change what you run to be useful. Soulbeast brings exceptionally high focused unblockable ranged damage and can shut down any flanking ranged damage easily with stance share being gravy.

Soulbeast can be balanced with some specific changes:

Swoop
(bird SB mode): Reduce leap from 1200 to 1000 (across game modes)
Lesser signet of stone
: Reduce invuln from 5 to 3s (WvW only)
Unflinching Fortitude
: Reduce invuln from 4 to 3s (across game modes)-
Pet's prowess
: When merged, Reduce ferocity and speed from 300/30% to 250/25% (WvW + PvP only)
Sic' Em
: When merged, Reduce Damage and Speed from 40% to 25% (WvW+ PvP only)
Moa Stance
: Reduce base duration from 10 to 8s, boon duration from 66% to 33%, 25s CD (across game modes)
Leader of the Pack
: Reduce personal duration from 150% to 125% (across game modes)Increase allies' duration from 50% to 75%, keep 5 targetOR keep allies' 50% duration and make it 10 target.

Personally, i would love for ranger to actually have to specialize and go further than the above needed balance:

Companion's Defense and Rugged Growth: remove it from Wilderness survival. Add Rugged Growth effect to Beast mastery.
Instead of natural healing; "When under the effect of swiftness, gain protection. Protection heals you and your pet".
Evasive purity: Remove it from Nature magic. Split it and move it to Wilderness survival.
Instead of actual Companion's defense: "Cleanse a (non) damaging condition on dodge".
Instead of actual Rugged Growth, "Gain 3s regeneration when you cleanse a condition".
Instead of Evasive Purity : "When you are under the effect of protection, share it to 5 allied target for 4-6s".

Not sure about the second set of changes as I would have to look them all up and the trait interactions but the bolded first set are entirely reasonable (I keep an eye on those myself) and I think could be in both PvP and WvW. It's genuinely surprising to see a well formatted clearly thought out post that's toning something down in a modest amount to begin with while trying not to make it irrelevant.

Well done.

EremiteAngel.9765 · February 8, 2019

@apharma.3741 said:
@Acyk.9671 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Sylosi.6503 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Sylosi.6503 said:So you've played thousands of hours yet still don't understand they barely balance for WvW and what little changes they do make are for large scale, not roaming.
Then beyond that the actual real difference between PvP and roaming when it comes to balance is not a few skill splits, it is that the game mode itself - conquest is the thing that balances most of the stuff that is broken in WvW roaming like excessive mobility, stealth, etc. Which of course you can't bring over to WvW, so just accept that WvW is always going to be trash tier for PvP / balance, because guess what it hasn't changed in 6 years so is not going to magically change now.

No, CA having 10s CD so giving 30% stealth and superspeed uptime with Celestial Shadow was a problem in PvP and is still a problem in WvW. Ancient seeds likewise is still an issue in WvW and was an issue in PvP till they nerfed it. Nearly everything listed in the thread is an issue in PvP and an issue in small scale WvW because they are simply too strong.

You could change all of those and roaming in WvW will still be laughably imbalanced, because the game was designed around conquest and that is what provides the real balance to a lot of things that have always been completely imbalanced in WvW.

For example take any class / build that can disengage very easily, in WvW that is completely broken. If I am on one of those classes/builds and I engage on someone then if I screw up or get outplayed, then unless I get blown up I can usually disengage (if I want). So basically the other player is not rewarded for outplaying me and I am not punished for playing poorly, that breaks one of the most fundamental principles in games - risk vs reward. (And to really add to the broken in some situations once I have disengaged I can then come back and try again, and if he makes a mistake he is screwed, one of the main reasons roaming died in this game long ago)

Now the same classes / builds can still disengage easily in PvP, the difference is you get punished for it and your opponent gets rewarded for it, because they win / keep the capture point, you have been inefficient for the last X seconds and their team's score ticks along.

The fact is the devs have demonstrated that they're not capable of maintaining 3 different balance states. This isn't me taking a dump on them, they work hard to do what they do but they simply don't have the capacity to balance 3 different game modes and maintain the expansion cadence they have. The best thing they can do is unify competitive game mode balance, yes it will create problems in WvW but it will fix more than it will break given WvW allows food, stat combos, runes and sigils.

No one is capable of balancing for 3 different game modes in a game like GW2, it is not possible without completely redesigning how the trait/skill/weapon systems work.

But face it they don't try, anyone awake who for example watched the Twitch streams they did for the first year or so after balance patches or who watched Sacrx's video about alpha, knows pre-HoT the the game was virtually entirely balanced around their "e-sport". Then only when they decided to add raids to PvE with HoT did they also start balancing / designing for that, there has never been any serious attempt to balance WvW just the odd crumb and some lip service. Which to be fair is all that should be expected as mentioned previously it is not possible to balance 3 very different game modes (then different things within them like large scale vs roaming). Frankly you can't even balance for 2 modes, which is part of the reason why PvP in themepark MMORPGs has the reputation does.

Lastly your changes listed above are an example of the problems they have, take CA for instance is the cooldown too short for roaming, possibly, however for guild raids / blobs no it isn't too short, something like Druid is already only mediocre at best in those situations.

Roaming will be imbalanced even if you bring over PvP changes but at least a lot of the worst offenders will be toned down. High stealth DE is also being complained about in PvP so it's not like these things are exclusive to WvW.

While Firebrand exists in it's current form giving so much simply for taking the line many other supports will find it extremely difficult to be included in a blob. Besides so long as druid is capable in a smaller scale fight there's no issue, not every spec has to be good in every situation so long as you can change what you run to be useful. Soulbeast brings exceptionally high focused unblockable ranged damage and can shut down any flanking ranged damage easily with stance share being gravy.

Soulbeast can be balanced with some specific changes:

Swoop
(bird SB mode): Reduce leap from 1200 to 1000 (across game modes)
Lesser signet of stone
: Reduce invuln from 5 to 3s (WvW only)
Unflinching Fortitude
: Reduce invuln from 4 to 3s (across game modes)-
Pet's prowess
: When merged, Reduce ferocity and speed from 300/30% to 250/25% (WvW + PvP only)
Sic' Em
: When merged, Reduce Damage and Speed from 40% to 25% (WvW+ PvP only)
Moa Stance
: Reduce base duration from 10 to 8s, boon duration from 66% to 33%, 25s CD (across game modes)
Leader of the Pack
: Reduce personal duration from 150% to 125% (across game modes)Increase allies' duration from 50% to 75%, keep 5 targetOR keep allies' 50% duration and make it 10 target.

Personally, i would love for ranger to actually have to specialize and go further than the above needed balance:

Companion's Defense and Rugged Growth: remove it from Wilderness survival. Add Rugged Growth effect to Beast mastery.
Instead of natural healing; "When under the effect of swiftness, gain protection. Protection heals you and your pet".
Evasive purity: Remove it from Nature magic. Split it and move it to Wilderness survival.
Instead of actual Companion's defense: "Cleanse a (non) damaging condition on dodge".
Instead of actual Rugged Growth, "Gain 3s regeneration when you cleanse a condition".
Instead of Evasive Purity : "When you are under the effect of protection, share it to 5 allied target for 4-6s".

Not sure about the second set of changes as I would have to look them all up and the trait interactions but the bolded first set are entirely reasonable (I keep an eye on those myself) and I think could be in both PvP and WvW. It's genuinely surprising to see a well formatted clearly thought out post that's toning something down in a modest amount to begin with while trying not to make it irrelevant.

Well done.

I disagree with the very conservative change to swoop.Rangers already have enough mobility and defensive tools without the extra merged mobility skills.Not only swoop needs to be totally reworked, but all pet merged skills need to have their mobility removed entirely.We don't need a hyper long range and hyper mobility class throwing the balance in the game hay-wire.

apharma.3741 · February 8, 2019

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Acyk.9671 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Sylosi.6503 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Sylosi.6503 said:So you've played thousands of hours yet still don't understand they barely balance for WvW and what little changes they do make are for large scale, not roaming.
Then beyond that the actual real difference between PvP and roaming when it comes to balance is not a few skill splits, it is that the game mode itself - conquest is the thing that balances most of the stuff that is broken in WvW roaming like excessive mobility, stealth, etc. Which of course you can't bring over to WvW, so just accept that WvW is always going to be trash tier for PvP / balance, because guess what it hasn't changed in 6 years so is not going to magically change now.

No, CA having 10s CD so giving 30% stealth and superspeed uptime with Celestial Shadow was a problem in PvP and is still a problem in WvW. Ancient seeds likewise is still an issue in WvW and was an issue in PvP till they nerfed it. Nearly everything listed in the thread is an issue in PvP and an issue in small scale WvW because they are simply too strong.

You could change all of those and roaming in WvW will still be laughably imbalanced, because the game was designed around conquest and that is what provides the real balance to a lot of things that have always been completely imbalanced in WvW.

For example take any class / build that can disengage very easily, in WvW that is completely broken. If I am on one of those classes/builds and I engage on someone then if I screw up or get outplayed, then unless I get blown up I can usually disengage (if I want). So basically the other player is not rewarded for outplaying me and I am not punished for playing poorly, that breaks one of the most fundamental principles in games - risk vs reward. (And to really add to the broken in some situations once I have disengaged I can then come back and try again, and if he makes a mistake he is screwed, one of the main reasons roaming died in this game long ago)

Now the same classes / builds can still disengage easily in PvP, the difference is you get punished for it and your opponent gets rewarded for it, because they win / keep the capture point, you have been inefficient for the last X seconds and their team's score ticks along.

The fact is the devs have demonstrated that they're not capable of maintaining 3 different balance states. This isn't me taking a dump on them, they work hard to do what they do but they simply don't have the capacity to balance 3 different game modes and maintain the expansion cadence they have. The best thing they can do is unify competitive game mode balance, yes it will create problems in WvW but it will fix more than it will break given WvW allows food, stat combos, runes and sigils.

No one is capable of balancing for 3 different game modes in a game like GW2, it is not possible without completely redesigning how the trait/skill/weapon systems work.

But face it they don't try, anyone awake who for example watched the Twitch streams they did for the first year or so after balance patches or who watched Sacrx's video about alpha, knows pre-HoT the the game was virtually entirely balanced around their "e-sport". Then only when they decided to add raids to PvE with HoT did they also start balancing / designing for that, there has never been any serious attempt to balance WvW just the odd crumb and some lip service. Which to be fair is all that should be expected as mentioned previously it is not possible to balance 3 very different game modes (then different things within them like large scale vs roaming). Frankly you can't even balance for 2 modes, which is part of the reason why PvP in themepark MMORPGs has the reputation does.

Lastly your changes listed above are an example of the problems they have, take CA for instance is the cooldown too short for roaming, possibly, however for guild raids / blobs no it isn't too short, something like Druid is already only mediocre at best in those situations.

Roaming will be imbalanced even if you bring over PvP changes but at least a lot of the worst offenders will be toned down. High stealth DE is also being complained about in PvP so it's not like these things are exclusive to WvW.

While Firebrand exists in it's current form giving so much simply for taking the line many other supports will find it extremely difficult to be included in a blob. Besides so long as druid is capable in a smaller scale fight there's no issue, not every spec has to be good in every situation so long as you can change what you run to be useful. Soulbeast brings exceptionally high focused unblockable ranged damage and can shut down any flanking ranged damage easily with stance share being gravy.

Soulbeast can be balanced with some specific changes:

Swoop
(bird SB mode): Reduce leap from 1200 to 1000 (across game modes)
Lesser signet of stone
: Reduce invuln from 5 to 3s (WvW only)
Unflinching Fortitude
: Reduce invuln from 4 to 3s (across game modes)-
Pet's prowess
: When merged, Reduce ferocity and speed from 300/30% to 250/25% (WvW + PvP only)
Sic' Em
: When merged, Reduce Damage and Speed from 40% to 25% (WvW+ PvP only)
Moa Stance
: Reduce base duration from 10 to 8s, boon duration from 66% to 33%, 25s CD (across game modes)
Leader of the Pack
: Reduce personal duration from 150% to 125% (across game modes)Increase allies' duration from 50% to 75%, keep 5 targetOR keep allies' 50% duration and make it 10 target.

Personally, i would love for ranger to actually have to specialize and go further than the above needed balance:

Companion's Defense and Rugged Growth: remove it from Wilderness survival. Add Rugged Growth effect to Beast mastery.
Instead of natural healing; "When under the effect of swiftness, gain protection. Protection heals you and your pet".
Evasive purity: Remove it from Nature magic. Split it and move it to Wilderness survival.
Instead of actual Companion's defense: "Cleanse a (non) damaging condition on dodge".
Instead of actual Rugged Growth, "Gain 3s regeneration when you cleanse a condition".
Instead of Evasive Purity : "When you are under the effect of protection, share it to 5 allied target for 4-6s".

Not sure about the second set of changes as I would have to look them all up and the trait interactions but the bolded first set are entirely reasonable (I keep an eye on those myself) and I think could be in both PvP and WvW. It's genuinely surprising to see a well formatted clearly thought out post that's toning something down in a modest amount to begin with while trying not to make it irrelevant.

Well done.

I disagree with the very conservative change to swoop.Rangers already have enough mobility and defensive tools without the extra merged mobility skills.Not only swoop needs to be totally reworked, but all pet merged skills need to have their mobility removed entirely.We don't need a hyper long range and hyper mobility class throwing the balance in the game hay-wire.

The thing is the changes on offer are nerfs to strong skills but when added up the soulbeast loses a bit of damage, loses a bit of survivability off a few pets and builds as well as some utility that is allowing for a free lunch in perma boon access.

If you had these kinds of changes brought to all classes can you honestly say you would know with 100% reliability exactly how it would affect inter class balance and build viability from meta to off meta/almost viable builds? I can't and even top PvP/WvW players it's not uncommon for them to have difficulty predicting it.

bq pd.2148 · February 8, 2019

@apharma.3741 said:
@Acyk.9671 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Sylosi.6503 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Sylosi.6503 said:So you've played thousands of hours yet still don't understand they barely balance for WvW and what little changes they do make are for large scale, not roaming.
Then beyond that the actual real difference between PvP and roaming when it comes to balance is not a few skill splits, it is that the game mode itself - conquest is the thing that balances most of the stuff that is broken in WvW roaming like excessive mobility, stealth, etc. Which of course you can't bring over to WvW, so just accept that WvW is always going to be trash tier for PvP / balance, because guess what it hasn't changed in 6 years so is not going to magically change now.

No, CA having 10s CD so giving 30% stealth and superspeed uptime with Celestial Shadow was a problem in PvP and is still a problem in WvW. Ancient seeds likewise is still an issue in WvW and was an issue in PvP till they nerfed it. Nearly everything listed in the thread is an issue in PvP and an issue in small scale WvW because they are simply too strong.

You could change all of those and roaming in WvW will still be laughably imbalanced, because the game was designed around conquest and that is what provides the real balance to a lot of things that have always been completely imbalanced in WvW.

For example take any class / build that can disengage very easily, in WvW that is completely broken. If I am on one of those classes/builds and I engage on someone then if I screw up or get outplayed, then unless I get blown up I can usually disengage (if I want). So basically the other player is not rewarded for outplaying me and I am not punished for playing poorly, that breaks one of the most fundamental principles in games - risk vs reward. (And to really add to the broken in some situations once I have disengaged I can then come back and try again, and if he makes a mistake he is screwed, one of the main reasons roaming died in this game long ago)

Now the same classes / builds can still disengage easily in PvP, the difference is you get punished for it and your opponent gets rewarded for it, because they win / keep the capture point, you have been inefficient for the last X seconds and their team's score ticks along.

The fact is the devs have demonstrated that they're not capable of maintaining 3 different balance states. This isn't me taking a dump on them, they work hard to do what they do but they simply don't have the capacity to balance 3 different game modes and maintain the expansion cadence they have. The best thing they can do is unify competitive game mode balance, yes it will create problems in WvW but it will fix more than it will break given WvW allows food, stat combos, runes and sigils.

No one is capable of balancing for 3 different game modes in a game like GW2, it is not possible without completely redesigning how the trait/skill/weapon systems work.

But face it they don't try, anyone awake who for example watched the Twitch streams they did for the first year or so after balance patches or who watched Sacrx's video about alpha, knows pre-HoT the the game was virtually entirely balanced around their "e-sport". Then only when they decided to add raids to PvE with HoT did they also start balancing / designing for that, there has never been any serious attempt to balance WvW just the odd crumb and some lip service. Which to be fair is all that should be expected as mentioned previously it is not possible to balance 3 very different game modes (then different things within them like large scale vs roaming). Frankly you can't even balance for 2 modes, which is part of the reason why PvP in themepark MMORPGs has the reputation does.

Lastly your changes listed above are an example of the problems they have, take CA for instance is the cooldown too short for roaming, possibly, however for guild raids / blobs no it isn't too short, something like Druid is already only mediocre at best in those situations.

Roaming will be imbalanced even if you bring over PvP changes but at least a lot of the worst offenders will be toned down. High stealth DE is also being complained about in PvP so it's not like these things are exclusive to WvW.

While Firebrand exists in it's current form giving so much simply for taking the line many other supports will find it extremely difficult to be included in a blob. Besides so long as druid is capable in a smaller scale fight there's no issue, not every spec has to be good in every situation so long as you can change what you run to be useful. Soulbeast brings exceptionally high focused unblockable ranged damage and can shut down any flanking ranged damage easily with stance share being gravy.

Soulbeast can be balanced with some specific changes:

Swoop
(bird SB mode): Reduce leap from 1200 to 1000 (across game modes)
Lesser signet of stone
: Reduce invuln from 5 to 3s (WvW only)
Unflinching Fortitude
: Reduce invuln from 4 to 3s (across game modes)-
Pet's prowess
: When merged, Reduce ferocity and speed from 300/30% to 250/25% (WvW + PvP only)
Sic' Em
: When merged, Reduce Damage and Speed from 40% to 25% (WvW+ PvP only)
Moa Stance
: Reduce base duration from 10 to 8s, boon duration from 66% to 33%, 25s CD (across game modes)
Leader of the Pack
: Reduce personal duration from 150% to 125% (across game modes)Increase allies' duration from 50% to 75%, keep 5 targetOR keep allies' 50% duration and make it 10 target.

Personally, i would love for ranger to actually have to specialize and go further than the above needed balance:

Companion's Defense and Rugged Growth: remove it from Wilderness survival. Add Rugged Growth effect to Beast mastery.
Instead of natural healing; "When under the effect of swiftness, gain protection. Protection heals you and your pet".
Evasive purity: Remove it from Nature magic. Split it and move it to Wilderness survival.
Instead of actual Companion's defense: "Cleanse a (non) damaging condition on dodge".
Instead of actual Rugged Growth, "Gain 3s regeneration when you cleanse a condition".
Instead of Evasive Purity : "When you are under the effect of protection, share it to 5 allied target for 4-6s".

Not sure about the second set of changes as I would have to look them all up and the trait interactions but the bolded first set are entirely reasonable (I keep an eye on those myself) and I think could be in both PvP and WvW. It's genuinely surprising to see a well formatted clearly thought out post that's toning something down in a modest amount to begin with while trying not to make it irrelevant.

Well done.

you know those super glass pew pew soulbeast? they will lose 50 ferocity from the 1 set of changes, and sic em down from 40 to 25%.in return with the second set of changes they will gain perma protection+heal while protection in BM! if they do not run GS trait. thats a huge sustain boost. the only thing they then lack is condi remove, but with the new sigils. well you might not do 40k rapid fires but they will still hit ALOT, but now they will be much harder to kill.

i am not sure if it would tone down boonbeast sustain as you now have more condi cleanse in WS and with the ability to take the new evasive purity with protective ward you also do not really lose on protection. maybe NM+BM would be the better way then tho, also better group support.

i am very positive that these set of changes wont reduce complains about rangers a bit.

apharma.3741 · February 8, 2019

@MUDse.7623 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Acyk.9671 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Sylosi.6503 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Sylosi.6503 said:So you've played thousands of hours yet still don't understand they barely balance for WvW and what little changes they do make are for large scale, not roaming.
Then beyond that the actual real difference between PvP and roaming when it comes to balance is not a few skill splits, it is that the game mode itself - conquest is the thing that balances most of the stuff that is broken in WvW roaming like excessive mobility, stealth, etc. Which of course you can't bring over to WvW, so just accept that WvW is always going to be trash tier for PvP / balance, because guess what it hasn't changed in 6 years so is not going to magically change now.

No, CA having 10s CD so giving 30% stealth and superspeed uptime with Celestial Shadow was a problem in PvP and is still a problem in WvW. Ancient seeds likewise is still an issue in WvW and was an issue in PvP till they nerfed it. Nearly everything listed in the thread is an issue in PvP and an issue in small scale WvW because they are simply too strong.

You could change all of those and roaming in WvW will still be laughably imbalanced, because the game was designed around conquest and that is what provides the real balance to a lot of things that have always been completely imbalanced in WvW.

For example take any class / build that can disengage very easily, in WvW that is completely broken. If I am on one of those classes/builds and I engage on someone then if I screw up or get outplayed, then unless I get blown up I can usually disengage (if I want). So basically the other player is not rewarded for outplaying me and I am not punished for playing poorly, that breaks one of the most fundamental principles in games - risk vs reward. (And to really add to the broken in some situations once I have disengaged I can then come back and try again, and if he makes a mistake he is screwed, one of the main reasons roaming died in this game long ago)

Now the same classes / builds can still disengage easily in PvP, the difference is you get punished for it and your opponent gets rewarded for it, because they win / keep the capture point, you have been inefficient for the last X seconds and their team's score ticks along.

The fact is the devs have demonstrated that they're not capable of maintaining 3 different balance states. This isn't me taking a dump on them, they work hard to do what they do but they simply don't have the capacity to balance 3 different game modes and maintain the expansion cadence they have. The best thing they can do is unify competitive game mode balance, yes it will create problems in WvW but it will fix more than it will break given WvW allows food, stat combos, runes and sigils.

No one is capable of balancing for 3 different game modes in a game like GW2, it is not possible without completely redesigning how the trait/skill/weapon systems work.

But face it they don't try, anyone awake who for example watched the Twitch streams they did for the first year or so after balance patches or who watched Sacrx's video about alpha, knows pre-HoT the the game was virtually entirely balanced around their "e-sport". Then only when they decided to add raids to PvE with HoT did they also start balancing / designing for that, there has never been any serious attempt to balance WvW just the odd crumb and some lip service. Which to be fair is all that should be expected as mentioned previously it is not possible to balance 3 very different game modes (then different things within them like large scale vs roaming). Frankly you can't even balance for 2 modes, which is part of the reason why PvP in themepark MMORPGs has the reputation does.

Lastly your changes listed above are an example of the problems they have, take CA for instance is the cooldown too short for roaming, possibly, however for guild raids / blobs no it isn't too short, something like Druid is already only mediocre at best in those situations.

Roaming will be imbalanced even if you bring over PvP changes but at least a lot of the worst offenders will be toned down. High stealth DE is also being complained about in PvP so it's not like these things are exclusive to WvW.

While Firebrand exists in it's current form giving so much simply for taking the line many other supports will find it extremely difficult to be included in a blob. Besides so long as druid is capable in a smaller scale fight there's no issue, not every spec has to be good in every situation so long as you can change what you run to be useful. Soulbeast brings exceptionally high focused unblockable ranged damage and can shut down any flanking ranged damage easily with stance share being gravy.

Soulbeast can be balanced with some specific changes:

Swoop
(bird SB mode): Reduce leap from 1200 to 1000 (across game modes)
Lesser signet of stone
: Reduce invuln from 5 to 3s (WvW only)
Unflinching Fortitude
: Reduce invuln from 4 to 3s (across game modes)-
Pet's prowess
: When merged, Reduce ferocity and speed from 300/30% to 250/25% (WvW + PvP only)
Sic' Em
: When merged, Reduce Damage and Speed from 40% to 25% (WvW+ PvP only)
Moa Stance
: Reduce base duration from 10 to 8s, boon duration from 66% to 33%, 25s CD (across game modes)
Leader of the Pack
: Reduce personal duration from 150% to 125% (across game modes)Increase allies' duration from 50% to 75%, keep 5 targetOR keep allies' 50% duration and make it 10 target.

Personally, i would love for ranger to actually have to specialize and go further than the above needed balance:

Companion's Defense and Rugged Growth: remove it from Wilderness survival. Add Rugged Growth effect to Beast mastery.
Instead of natural healing; "When under the effect of swiftness, gain protection. Protection heals you and your pet".
Evasive purity: Remove it from Nature magic. Split it and move it to Wilderness survival.
Instead of actual Companion's defense: "Cleanse a (non) damaging condition on dodge".
Instead of actual Rugged Growth, "Gain 3s regeneration when you cleanse a condition".
Instead of Evasive Purity : "When you are under the effect of protection, share it to 5 allied target for 4-6s".

Not sure about the second set of changes as I would have to look them all up and the trait interactions but the bolded first set are entirely reasonable (I keep an eye on those myself) and I think could be in both PvP and WvW. It's genuinely surprising to see a well formatted clearly thought out post that's toning something down in a modest amount to begin with while trying not to make it irrelevant.

Well done.

you know those super glass pew pew soulbeast? they will lose 50 ferocity from the 1 set of changes, and sic em down from 40 to 25%.in return with the second set of changes they will gain perma protection+heal while protection in BM! if they do not run GS trait. thats a huge sustain boost. the only thing they then lack is condi remove, but with the new sigils. well you might not do 40k rapid fires but they will still hit ALOT, but now they will be much harder to kill.

i am not sure if it would tone down boonbeast sustain as you now have more condi cleanse in WS and with the ability to take the new evasive purity with protective ward you also do not really lose on protection. maybe NM+BM would be the better way then tho, also better group support.

i am very positive that these set of changes wont reduce complains about rangers a bit.

Yeah that's why I said I wasn't sure about the second set as soulbeast already has a lot of sustain and I'd have to look at...yeah well the quote is there. Thanks for summarising the 2nd set of changes up. I wouldn't agree with them, soulbeast needs nerfs this round of balancing so I agree with the first set of nerfs if only because it's not too extreme but not the second set of changes.

Acyk.9671 · February 8, 2019

deleted

Acyk.9671 · February 8, 2019

deleted

bq pd.2148 · February 8, 2019

@Acyk.9671 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Acyk.9671 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Sylosi.6503 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Sylosi.6503 said:So you've played thousands of hours yet still don't understand they barely balance for WvW and what little changes they do make are for large scale, not roaming.
Then beyond that the actual real difference between PvP and roaming when it comes to balance is not a few skill splits, it is that the game mode itself - conquest is the thing that balances most of the stuff that is broken in WvW roaming like excessive mobility, stealth, etc. Which of course you can't bring over to WvW, so just accept that WvW is always going to be trash tier for PvP / balance, because guess what it hasn't changed in 6 years so is not going to magically change now.

No, CA having 10s CD so giving 30% stealth and superspeed uptime with Celestial Shadow was a problem in PvP and is still a problem in WvW. Ancient seeds likewise is still an issue in WvW and was an issue in PvP till they nerfed it. Nearly everything listed in the thread is an issue in PvP and an issue in small scale WvW because they are simply too strong.

You could change all of those and roaming in WvW will still be laughably imbalanced, because the game was designed around conquest and that is what provides the real balance to a lot of things that have always been completely imbalanced in WvW.

For example take any class / build that can disengage very easily, in WvW that is completely broken. If I am on one of those classes/builds and I engage on someone then if I screw up or get outplayed, then unless I get blown up I can usually disengage (if I want). So basically the other player is not rewarded for outplaying me and I am not punished for playing poorly, that breaks one of the most fundamental principles in games - risk vs reward. (And to really add to the broken in some situations once I have disengaged I can then come back and try again, and if he makes a mistake he is screwed, one of the main reasons roaming died in this game long ago)

Now the same classes / builds can still disengage easily in PvP, the difference is you get punished for it and your opponent gets rewarded for it, because they win / keep the capture point, you have been inefficient for the last X seconds and their team's score ticks along.

The fact is the devs have demonstrated that they're not capable of maintaining 3 different balance states. This isn't me taking a dump on them, they work hard to do what they do but they simply don't have the capacity to balance 3 different game modes and maintain the expansion cadence they have. The best thing they can do is unify competitive game mode balance, yes it will create problems in WvW but it will fix more than it will break given WvW allows food, stat combos, runes and sigils.

No one is capable of balancing for 3 different game modes in a game like GW2, it is not possible without completely redesigning how the trait/skill/weapon systems work.

But face it they don't try, anyone awake who for example watched the Twitch streams they did for the first year or so after balance patches or who watched Sacrx's video about alpha, knows pre-HoT the the game was virtually entirely balanced around their "e-sport". Then only when they decided to add raids to PvE with HoT did they also start balancing / designing for that, there has never been any serious attempt to balance WvW just the odd crumb and some lip service. Which to be fair is all that should be expected as mentioned previously it is not possible to balance 3 very different game modes (then different things within them like large scale vs roaming). Frankly you can't even balance for 2 modes, which is part of the reason why PvP in themepark MMORPGs has the reputation does.

Lastly your changes listed above are an example of the problems they have, take CA for instance is the cooldown too short for roaming, possibly, however for guild raids / blobs no it isn't too short, something like Druid is already only mediocre at best in those situations.

Roaming will be imbalanced even if you bring over PvP changes but at least a lot of the worst offenders will be toned down. High stealth DE is also being complained about in PvP so it's not like these things are exclusive to WvW.

While Firebrand exists in it's current form giving so much simply for taking the line many other supports will find it extremely difficult to be included in a blob. Besides so long as druid is capable in a smaller scale fight there's no issue, not every spec has to be good in every situation so long as you can change what you run to be useful. Soulbeast brings exceptionally high focused unblockable ranged damage and can shut down any flanking ranged damage easily with stance share being gravy.

Soulbeast can be balanced with some specific changes:

Swoop
(bird SB mode): Reduce leap from 1200 to 1000 (across game modes)
Lesser signet of stone
: Reduce invuln from 5 to 3s (WvW only)
Unflinching Fortitude
: Reduce invuln from 4 to 3s (across game modes)-
Pet's prowess
: When merged, Reduce ferocity and speed from 300/30% to 250/25% (WvW + PvP only)
Sic' Em
: When merged, Reduce Damage and Speed from 40% to 25% (WvW+ PvP only)
Moa Stance
: Reduce base duration from 10 to 8s, boon duration from 66% to 33%, 25s CD (across game modes)
Leader of the Pack
: Reduce personal duration from 150% to 125% (across game modes)Increase allies' duration from 50% to 75%, keep 5 targetOR keep allies' 50% duration and make it 10 target.

Personally, i would love for ranger to actually have to specialize and go further than the above needed balance:

Companion's Defense and Rugged Growth: remove it from Wilderness survival. Add Rugged Growth effect to Beast mastery.
Instead of natural healing; "When under the effect of swiftness, gain protection. Protection heals you and your pet".
Evasive purity: Remove it from Nature magic. Split it and move it to Wilderness survival.
Instead of actual Companion's defense: "Cleanse a (non) damaging condition on dodge".
Instead of actual Rugged Growth, "Gain 3s regeneration when you cleanse a condition".
Instead of Evasive Purity : "When you are under the effect of protection, share it to 5 allied target for 4-6s".

Not sure about the second set of changes as I would have to look them all up and the trait interactions but the bolded first set are entirely reasonable (I keep an eye on those myself) and I think could be in both PvP and WvW. It's genuinely surprising to see a well formatted clearly thought out post that's toning something down in a modest amount to begin with while trying not to make it irrelevant.

Well done.

you know those super glass pew pew soulbeast? they will lose 50 ferocity from the 1 set of changes, and sic em down from 40 to 25%.in return with the second set of changes they will gain perma protection+heal while protection in BM! if they do not run GS trait. thats a huge sustain boost. the only thing they then lack is condi remove, but with the new sigils. well you might not do 40k rapid fires but they will still hit ALOT, but now they will be much harder to kill.

i am not sure if it would tone down boonbeast sustain as you now have more condi cleanse in WS and with the ability to take the new evasive purity with protective ward you also do not really lose on protection. maybe NM+BM would be the better way then tho, also better group support.

i am very positive that these set of changes wont reduce complains about rangers a bit.

Yeah that's why I said I wasn't sure about the second set as soulbeast already has a lot of sustain and I'd have to look at...yeah well the quote is there. Thanks for summarising the 2nd set of changes up. I wouldn't agree with them, soulbeast needs nerfs this round of balancing so I agree with the first set of nerfs if only because it's not too extreme but not the second set of changes.

I just think that wilderness survival shouldn't give prot on dodge while having this much cleanse. I wanted to end up with either a soulbeast with high protection uptime but low cleanse OR high cleanse, low protection OR high cleanse + prot but low damage.Maybe Protective ward should be in Beast Mastery and my new trait in Nature magic.

or swap your evasive purity(really needs other name with your changes) with invigorating bond so you cannot take both protection traits but still both support traits together.

giving protection in anyway into beastmastery will make the most glassiest builds have access to it with little sacrifice.

DeWolfe.2174 · February 8, 2019

Mesmer and Warrior need nerf batting the most. Seriously, no one mentioned Confusing Images?

Acyk.9671 · February 8, 2019

deleted

bq pd.2148 · February 8, 2019

@Acyk.9671 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Acyk.9671 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Acyk.9671 said:
Soulbeast can be balanced with some specific changes:
Swoop
(bird SB mode): Reduce leap from 1200 to 1000 (across game modes)
Lesser signet of stone
: Reduce invuln from 5 to 3s (WvW only)
Unflinching Fortitude
: Reduce invuln from 4 to 3s (across game modes)-
Pet's prowess
: When merged, Reduce ferocity and speed from 300/30% to 250/25% (WvW + PvP only)
Sic' Em
: When merged, Reduce Damage and Speed from 40% to 25% (WvW+ PvP only)
Moa Stance
: Reduce base duration from 10 to 8s, boon duration from 66% to 33%, 25s CD (across game modes)
Leader of the Pack
: Reduce personal duration from 150% to 125% (across game modes)Increase allies' duration from 50% to 75%, keep 5 targetOR keep allies' 50% duration and make it 10 target.
Personally, i would love for ranger to actually have to specialize and go further than the above needed balance:
Companion's Defense and Rugged Growth: remove it from Wilderness survival. Add Rugged Growth effect to Beast mastery.
Instead of natural healing; "When under the effect of swiftness, gain protection. Protection heals you and your pet".
Evasive purity: Remove it from Nature magic. Split it and move it to Wilderness survival.
Instead of actual Companion's defense: "Cleanse a (non) damaging condition on dodge".
Instead of actual Rugged Growth, "Gain 3s regeneration when you cleanse a condition".
Instead of Evasive Purity : "When you are under the effect of protection, share it to 5 allied target for 4-6s".

Not sure about the second set of changes as I would have to look them all up and the trait interactions but the bolded first set are entirely reasonable (I keep an eye on those myself) and I think could be in both PvP and WvW. It's genuinely surprising to see a well formatted clearly thought out post that's toning something down in a modest amount to begin with while trying not to make it irrelevant.

Well done.

you know those super glass pew pew soulbeast? they will lose 50 ferocity from the 1 set of changes, and sic em down from 40 to 25%.in return with the second set of changes they will gain perma protection+heal while protection in BM! if they do not run GS trait. thats a huge sustain boost. the only thing they then lack is condi remove, but with the new sigils. well you might not do 40k rapid fires but they will still hit ALOT, but now they will be much harder to kill.

i am not sure if it would tone down boonbeast sustain as you now have more condi cleanse in WS and with the ability to take the new evasive purity with protective ward you also do not really lose on protection. maybe NM+BM would be the better way then tho, also better group support.

i am very positive that these set of changes wont reduce complains about rangers a bit.

Yeah that's why I said I wasn't sure about the second set as soulbeast already has a lot of sustain and I'd have to look at...yeah well the quote is there. Thanks for summarising the 2nd set of changes up. I wouldn't agree with them, soulbeast needs nerfs this round of balancing so I agree with the first set of nerfs if only because it's not too extreme but not the second set of changes.

I just think that wilderness survival shouldn't give prot on dodge while having this much cleanse. I wanted to end up with either a soulbeast with high protection uptime but low cleanse OR high cleanse, low protection OR high cleanse + prot but low damage.Maybe Protective ward should be in Beast Mastery and my new trait in Nature magic.

or swap your evasive purity(really needs other name with your changes) with invigorating bond so you cannot take both protection traits but still both support traits together.

giving protection in anyway into beastmastery will make the most glassiest builds have access to it with little sacrifice.

I know Companion's defense + Rugged growth provide an altenative to Protective Ward while Evasive purity provide an alternative to Wilderness Survival and they are not that much out of place from a design/lore perspective.The thing is i want the break the bond there is between Wilderness Survival, Nature magic, and Second Skin that gives you protection + heal on dodge with a really good boon uptime allowing to tank power + condi damage while being able to cleanse your self from conditions because it makes sense to take lesser muddy terrain + Wilderness knowledge. THIS is what creates a boonbeast that can sustain so much while having enough pressure with high fury uptime + leader of the pack. I think it would be preferable if you could get Protection from an other source so when you stack up those 3 specializations, you don't end up with this much regen +prot +fury +cleanse.

Companion's Defense and Rugged Growth (Wildernes Survival) : Remove both
- Evasive purity (Nature magic): Remove it
Natural Healing (Beast Mastery): Remove it
Instead of actual Companion's defense: "Cleanse a (non) damaging condition on dodge". Call it Evasive Purity
Instead of actual Rugged Growth, "Gain 3s regeneration when you cleanse a condition". Call it Natural healing
Instead of natural healing; "When under the effect of swiftness, gain 2s protection, 10s CD". Call it ???
Instead of Evasive Purity : "When you grant yourself protection, share it to 5 other allied targets for 3-4s. Protection heals you and your pet." Call it Rugged Growth
I took your concerns into account and made some changes but I still have some problems on how to provide good prot without staight buffing defensive capabilities of glass canon builds even if my previous changes would take care of their insane burst...

while with the 10s cd and the healing part (is the healing pet part healing you aswell in beastmode?) now being in NM will nerf pure glasscannon sustain compared to the first set of changes, what about the other thing you know play an offensive boonbeast as the protection with your changes is cheap?so i would run a more or less berserk NM+BM+SB then with sword/horn for kiting and longbow for pew pew.2s+3s every 10s from '???' + rugged growth & 4s+3s every 15s from protective ward+ rugged growth = 96,67% uptime protection. (values with 0 boonduration, add in the boonduration from NM minor trait and it will be 100% uptime).so basically just from getting hit and having swiftness i have 100% protection uptime - nice! this frees up alot of slots from the boon beast. i can now take sic em instead of moa stance, i can take an offensive rune and i do get some nice offensive stats from BM.what do i lose? well lesser muddy terrain (but i am mostly on range, would be stupid not to use the space you have in WvW as opposed to spvp) and some condi remove.for that we have in WvW a cleansing sigil that is superior to the spvp version by a factor of 3!i am almost certain the result will be overall cause more trouble than both the glass builds and boonbeast are now, as it will have a huge chunk of the good stuff from both builds.

now if as i did say you swap rugged growth with invigorating bond, that drops the protection uptime to 50% without boonduration, getting it back up will cost me alot of slots i can use for damage in your above suggestion.

schokelmei.8271 · February 8, 2019

I don't see how it's fun to play this game on any of the mentioned classes. The classes take you by the hand and carry you all the way down. You make a grave mistake? Don't need to care, your best buddy aka the build helps you out. You make another stupid mistake? Who cares, just try again, you have plenty of cooldowns that enable you to reset.It's really time to apply the pvp templates, delete all food and end this cancer. Would favor those that can adapt and the rest should really l2p.

bq pd.2148 · February 8, 2019

@gebrechen.5643 said:I don't see how it's fun to play this game on any of the mentioned classes. The classes take you by the hand and carry you all the way down. You make a grave mistake? Don't need to care, your best buddy aka the build helps you out. You make another stupid mistake? Who cares, just try again, you have plenty of cooldowns that enable you to reset.how can something be a mistake if it has no consequence with your build?common example: mirage dodge while stunned.now many claim a mirage has to be punished for the mistake of eating the stun. but all that happens is the mirage is stunned and cannot use some skills. to expect being able to get a free option to burst is just a mistake of the opponent. considering that soo many people nearly always follow up with a burst after a successful CC, it might actually be good play of the mirage to eat a stun to bait the burst so he can dodge it.

and the things that are actual mistakes, are they grave mistakes?if you know that you can reset on demand if you make sure this and that is off cooldown, then whatever you do cannot really be a grave mistake. the only way to make a grave mistake would be if you engage with the skills you need to reset being on cooldown. (wich is actually what will cause most deaths among these professions)

as for fun:how is it fun to play a build that requires your opponent to have a suboptimal build or being bad enough for you to win? for a fight to be challanging and about skill, everyone has to play on a build with the same powerlevel. it is very hard to have a common powerlevel if everyone adds their own individual rules for what is 'ok' and what is not. while one doesnt like condi damage, other doesnt like power, one doesnt like tanky builds, the other doesnt like oneshot builds, one doesnt like range build, the other doesnt like mobile builds, another doesnt like stealth in any form and yet another doesnt like boons. trying to agree to a specific ruleset would cause an endless debate with no result. why not just: use whatever you want, what ever you deem strongest in the game, no rules? then everyone picks tools from the same pool and skill will matter again. the toolchoice will ofc be part of it. and if every one ends of on the same build ? so what ? it will much more likely cause anet to change whatever is the reason for it..

Acyk.9671 · February 8, 2019

deleted

bq pd.2148 · February 8, 2019

@Acyk.9671 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Acyk.9671 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Acyk.9671 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Acyk.9671 said:
Soulbeast can be balanced with some specific changes:
Swoop
(bird SB mode): Reduce leap from 1200 to 1000 (across game modes)
Lesser signet of stone
: Reduce invuln from 5 to 3s (WvW only)
Unflinching Fortitude
: Reduce invuln from 4 to 3s (across game modes)-
Pet's prowess
: When merged, Reduce ferocity and speed from 300/30% to 250/25% (WvW + PvP only)
Sic' Em
: When merged, Reduce Damage and Speed from 40% to 25% (WvW+ PvP only)
Moa Stance
: Reduce base duration from 10 to 8s, boon duration from 66% to 33%, 25s CD (across game modes)
Leader of the Pack
: Reduce personal duration from 150% to 125% (across game modes)Increase allies' duration from 50% to 75%, keep 5 targetOR keep allies' 50% duration and make it 10 target.
Personally, i would love for ranger to actually have to specialize and go further than the above needed balance:
Companion's Defense and Rugged Growth: remove it from Wilderness survival. Add Rugged Growth effect to Beast mastery.
Instead of natural healing; "When under the effect of swiftness, gain protection. Protection heals you and your pet".
Evasive purity: Remove it from Nature magic. Split it and move it to Wilderness survival.
Instead of actual Companion's defense: "Cleanse a (non) damaging condition on dodge".
Instead of actual Rugged Growth, "Gain 3s regeneration when you cleanse a condition".
Instead of Evasive Purity : "When you are under the effect of protection, share it to 5 allied target for 4-6s".