RIP Deadeye (stealth)

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@bluri.2653 said:

@Elxdark.9702 said:don't be too dramatic DE is still fine in pvp, damage is there.You have less window to react when someone sits on you, yeah you actually have to like think before kneel in front of everybody then dogding and calling it a day.

I'd rather go back to the old silent scope but if they haven't changed it until now it means that they probably won't in the future.

I think anet has a history of never going back on their changes. The only thing that comes to mind is removing 2 borderlands in WVW from desert to the old one after all the massive qq.

So ye its never gonna happen just as blinding powder revert, lead attacks revert just a few... Will never happen

Oh and don't forget that they will not fix scrapper after making it b r o k e n either

That is usually the case. The Thief is not always the problem, other professions are.

[Aihao.5824]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Aihao.5824 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

You survive by disengaging from an outnumber fights. Your ability to survive such a scenario is obviously lacking, so the best course of action is to not get in such situation or to escape such situation.

When I use dodge->DR, I immediately swap to S/D and control the fight that way. I don't know your capabilities to survive or to control a fight, so best use your own judgment on how much pressure you can endure. If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities.

[TorQ.7041]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

You survive by disengaging from an outnumber fights. Your ability to survive such a scenario is obviously lacking, so the best course of action is to not get in such situation or to escape such situation.

When I use dodge->DR, I immediately swap to S/D and control the fight that way. I don't know your capabilities to survive or to control a fight, so best use your own judgment on how much pressure you can endure. If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities.

You make it sound so easy on paper, dodge and skill 4 away then use s/d.

Except that while s/d u don’t have any of the traits a core thief has such as a passive, regen on evade, double steal etc etc. a d/p thief will just out stealth and kill you. Since it can now stay in stealth for longer it can backstab steal to finish u off n there no way for u to dodge something you can see that’s a 1 shot. U can’t run either since dash > you.

After burning 3x Dr, you also have no intitiative left to use anything on your sword. And 3x Dr won’t stop you from being chased down from other thieves or even rev, gadget holo.

Yes you still have burst dmg from rifle but with the new scrapper meta, all the reflects blocks and evades. If you burst hit nothing u get focused and have to run. You are basically a useless player. There is absolutely no point in play DE right now since the new meta will be scrapper and your rifle burst will do nothing.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

You survive by disengaging from an outnumber fights. Your ability to survive such a scenario is obviously lacking, so the best course of action is to not get in such situation or to escape such situation.

When I use dodge->DR, I immediately swap to S/D and control the fight that way. I don't know your capabilities to survive or to control a fight, so best use your own judgment on how much pressure you can endure. If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities.

You make it sound so easy on paper, dodge and skill 4 away then use s/d.

Except that while s/d u don’t have any of the traits a core thief has such as a passive, regen on evade, double steal etc etc. a d/p thief will just out stealth and kill you. Since it can now stay in stealth for longer it can backstab steal to finish u off n there no way for u to dodge something you can see that’s a 1 shot. U can’t run either since dash > you.

After burning 3x Dr, you also have no intitiative left to use anything on your sword. And 3x Dr won’t stop you from being chased down from other thieves or even rev, gadget holo.

Yes you still have burst dmg from rifle but with the new scrapper meta, all the reflects blocks and evades. If you burst hit nothing u get focused and have to run. You are basically a useless player. There is absolutely no point in play DE right now since the new meta will be scrapper and your rifle burst will do nothing.

Maybe that's the difference between Thiefs that uses DE. I personally don't use rifle other than as a utility stick. As I said; "If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities."

EDIT: In addition, if you are being chased by more than one D/P Thief, it would not matter what your build is.

[kash.9213]

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

You survive by disengaging from an outnumber fights. Your ability to survive such a scenario is obviously lacking, so the best course of action is to not get in such situation or to escape such situation.

When I use dodge->DR, I immediately swap to S/D and control the fight that way. I don't know your capabilities to survive or to control a fight, so best use your own judgment on how much pressure you can endure. If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities.

You make it sound so easy on paper, dodge and skill 4 away then use s/d.

Except that while s/d u don’t have any of the traits a core thief has such as a passive, regen on evade, double steal etc etc. a d/p thief will just out stealth and kill you. Since it can now stay in stealth for longer it can backstab steal to finish u off n there no way for u to dodge something you can see that’s a 1 shot. U can’t run either since dash > you.

After burning 3x Dr, you also have no intitiative left to use anything on your sword. And 3x Dr won’t stop you from being chased down from other thieves or even rev, gadget holo.

Yes you still have burst dmg from rifle but with the new scrapper meta, all the reflects blocks and evades. If you burst hit nothing u get focused and have to run. You are basically a useless player. There is absolutely no point in play DE right now since the new meta will be scrapper and your rifle burst will do nothing.

Why x3 DR? Sorry I'm trying to backtrack through comments to see why x3. I never have a plan or routine but his sequence is pretty close to what I end up doing in any mode quite a bit but that's only x1 DR and then S/D gives some decisions or just hang out on rifle and watch for a little longer. I x2 DR off of Snipers Cover for map travel but still only x1 to counter with a DJ or something. It might be the way I slide on my keys so it could be a fault on my end but x3 DR sometimes interrupts the stealth chain down to basic duration.

[TorQ.7041]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

You survive by disengaging from an outnumber fights. Your ability to survive such a scenario is obviously lacking, so the best course of action is to not get in such situation or to escape such situation.

When I use dodge->DR, I immediately swap to S/D and control the fight that way. I don't know your capabilities to survive or to control a fight, so best use your own judgment on how much pressure you can endure. If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities.

You make it sound so easy on paper, dodge and skill 4 away then use s/d.

Except that while s/d u don’t have any of the traits a core thief has such as a passive, regen on evade, double steal etc etc. a d/p thief will just out stealth and kill you. Since it can now stay in stealth for longer it can backstab steal to finish u off n there no way for u to dodge something you can see that’s a 1 shot. U can’t run either since dash > you.

After burning 3x Dr, you also have no intitiative left to use anything on your sword. And 3x Dr won’t stop you from being chased down from other thieves or even rev, gadget holo.

Yes you still have burst dmg from rifle but with the new scrapper meta, all the reflects blocks and evades. If you burst hit nothing u get focused and have to run. You are basically a useless player. There is absolutely no point in play DE right now since the new meta will be scrapper and your rifle burst will do nothing.

Maybe that's the difference between Thiefs that uses DE. I personally don't use rifle other than as a utility stick. As I said;

"If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities."

EDIT: In addition, if you are being chased by more than one D/P Thief, it would not matter what your build is.

Then why even use deadeye. Just use core lol. What utility does rifle have thats so good?

Bow is surely far surperior.

Na I was referring to just with. If ur gonna switch to SD to fight and SD thief you are basically fighting handi capped. N like I said. If u unloaded ur burst and u try to disengage. Not only d u have less int. And cool downs you don't have the same traits other than the +10 % dmg

[TorQ.7041]

@kash.9213 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

You survive by disengaging from an outnumber fights. Your ability to survive such a scenario is obviously lacking, so the best course of action is to not get in such situation or to escape such situation.

When I use dodge->DR, I immediately swap to S/D and control the fight that way. I don't know your capabilities to survive or to control a fight, so best use your own judgment on how much pressure you can endure. If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities.

You make it sound so easy on paper, dodge and skill 4 away then use s/d.

Except that while s/d u don’t have any of the traits a core thief has such as a passive, regen on evade, double steal etc etc. a d/p thief will just out stealth and kill you. Since it can now stay in stealth for longer it can backstab steal to finish u off n there no way for u to dodge something you can see that’s a 1 shot. U can’t run either since dash > you.

After burning 3x Dr, you also have no intitiative left to use anything on your sword. And 3x Dr won’t stop you from being chased down from other thieves or even rev, gadget holo.

Yes you still have burst dmg from rifle but with the new scrapper meta, all the reflects blocks and evades. If you burst hit nothing u get focused and have to run. You are basically a useless player. There is absolutely no point in play DE right now since the new meta will be scrapper and your rifle burst will do nothing.

Why x3 DR? Sorry I'm trying to backtrack through comments to see why x3. I never have a plan or routine but his sequence is pretty close to what I end up doing in any mode quite a bit but that's only x1 DR and then S/D gives some decisions or just hang out on rifle and watch for a little longer. I x2 DR off of Snipers Cover for map travel but still only x1 to counter with a DJ or something. It might be the way I slide on my keys so it could be a fault on my end but x3 DR sometimes interrupts the stealth chain down to basic duration.

Was just metaphorically speaking. When you need to get away. If u were trying to run from another thief, rev, holo. Since if u have already unloaded your burst. Used mercy and will likely use your shadow step. Your team contribution is just low. If you can't stick around and do damage and you don't have the mobility to cap or disengage. What are you good for?

[TorQ.7041]

Tbh they should make skill 4 targetable and zero cast time. Like a mini shadow step. This allows u to stick around but can't be abused because it's at cost of int.

[kash.9213]

@TorQ.7041 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

You survive by disengaging from an outnumber fights. Your ability to survive such a scenario is obviously lacking, so the best course of action is to not get in such situation or to escape such situation.

When I use dodge->DR, I immediately swap to S/D and control the fight that way. I don't know your capabilities to survive or to control a fight, so best use your own judgment on how much pressure you can endure. If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities.

You make it sound so easy on paper, dodge and skill 4 away then use s/d.

Except that while s/d u don’t have any of the traits a core thief has such as a passive, regen on evade, double steal etc etc. a d/p thief will just out stealth and kill you. Since it can now stay in stealth for longer it can backstab steal to finish u off n there no way for u to dodge something you can see that’s a 1 shot. U can’t run either since dash > you.

After burning 3x Dr, you also have no intitiative left to use anything on your sword. And 3x Dr won’t stop you from being chased down from other thieves or even rev, gadget holo.

Yes you still have burst dmg from rifle but with the new scrapper meta, all the reflects blocks and evades. If you burst hit nothing u get focused and have to run. You are basically a useless player. There is absolutely no point in play DE right now since the new meta will be scrapper and your rifle burst will do nothing.

Why x3 DR? Sorry I'm trying to backtrack through comments to see why x3. I never have a plan or routine but his sequence is pretty close to what I end up doing in any mode quite a bit but that's only x1 DR and then S/D gives some decisions or just hang out on rifle and watch for a little longer. I x2 DR off of Snipers Cover for map travel but still only x1 to counter with a DJ or something. It might be the way I slide on my keys so it could be a fault on my end but x3 DR sometimes interrupts the stealth chain down to basic duration.

Was just metaphorically speaking. When you need to get away. If u were trying to run from another thief, rev, holo. Since if u have already unloaded your burst. Used mercy and will likely use your shadow step. Your team contribution is just low. If you can't stick around and do damage and you don't have the mobility to cap or disengage. What are you good for?

I see. Ya, DE budget can get tight. I guess even in raids or whatever someone could gas themselves out if their not looking at their internal combat log or looking around, especially if the other player or group has some coordination they could probably let you walk right into something if you don't gamble and decide what to let through or not spend anything on.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

You survive by disengaging from an outnumber fights. Your ability to survive such a scenario is obviously lacking, so the best course of action is to not get in such situation or to escape such situation.

When I use dodge->DR, I immediately swap to S/D and control the fight that way. I don't know your capabilities to survive or to control a fight, so best use your own judgment on how much pressure you can endure. If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities.

You make it sound so easy on paper, dodge and skill 4 away then use s/d.

Except that while s/d u don’t have any of the traits a core thief has such as a passive, regen on evade, double steal etc etc. a d/p thief will just out stealth and kill you. Since it can now stay in stealth for longer it can backstab steal to finish u off n there no way for u to dodge something you can see that’s a 1 shot. U can’t run either since dash > you.

After burning 3x Dr, you also have no intitiative left to use anything on your sword. And 3x Dr won’t stop you from being chased down from other thieves or even rev, gadget holo.

Yes you still have burst dmg from rifle but with the new scrapper meta, all the reflects blocks and evades. If you burst hit nothing u get focused and have to run. You are basically a useless player. There is absolutely no point in play DE right now since the new meta will be scrapper and your rifle burst will do nothing.

Maybe that's the difference between Thiefs that uses DE. I personally don't use rifle other than as a utility stick. As I said;

"If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities."

EDIT: In addition, if you are being chased by more than one D/P Thief, it would not matter what your build is.

Then why even use deadeye. Just use core lol. What utility does rifle have thats so good?

Bow is surely far surperior.

Na I was referring to just with. If ur gonna switch to SD to fight and SD thief you are basically fighting handi capped. N like I said. If u unloaded ur burst and u try to disengage. Not only d u have less int. And cool downs you don't have the same traits other than the +10 % dmg

Rifle with M7 can perma stack swiftness, vigour and fury while giving enough ini regen to make trickery optional, both of these things fill holes in the rest of DE's design. 1500 range immob and pierce are also very useful in certain situations, and even with 1s stealth that's more stealth than shortbow can offer outside of blasting smoke fields or trapper runes. Shortbow is an excellent weapon, but there are clearly things that rifle offers that shortbow does not which are advantageous depending on build.

The rest of your points concerning S/D and giving up traits are right though, core is clearly better for S/D trait wise. That doesn't mean it can't work on DE though, if you use rifle's utility to make up for something core S/D lacks.

[ChillyKoti.1928]

@"Doggie.3184" said:because DJ needed to be even more telegraphed and counterable apparently because it's the ruling god in all pvp. I guess people constantly demand even more future sight of it. Eventually people will be able to predict the exact time a Thief will use it 5 hours ahead of time as well as have their own personal "The World" that automatically stops time before it hits them.

Full Counter and Winds of Disenchantment says "Hello!"

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

You survive by disengaging from an outnumber fights. Your ability to survive such a scenario is obviously lacking, so the best course of action is to not get in such situation or to escape such situation.

When I use dodge->DR, I immediately swap to S/D and control the fight that way. I don't know your capabilities to survive or to control a fight, so best use your own judgment on how much pressure you can endure. If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities.

You make it sound so easy on paper, dodge and skill 4 away then use s/d.

Except that while s/d u don’t have any of the traits a core thief has such as a passive, regen on evade, double steal etc etc. a d/p thief will just out stealth and kill you. Since it can now stay in stealth for longer it can backstab steal to finish u off n there no way for u to dodge something you can see that’s a 1 shot. U can’t run either since dash > you.

After burning 3x Dr, you also have no intitiative left to use anything on your sword. And 3x Dr won’t stop you from being chased down from other thieves or even rev, gadget holo.

Yes you still have burst dmg from rifle but with the new scrapper meta, all the reflects blocks and evades. If you burst hit nothing u get focused and have to run. You are basically a useless player. There is absolutely no point in play DE right now since the new meta will be scrapper and your rifle burst will do nothing.

Maybe that's the difference between Thiefs that uses DE. I personally don't use rifle other than as a utility stick. As I said;

"If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities."

EDIT: In addition, if you are being chased by more than one D/P Thief, it would not matter what your build is.

Then why even use deadeye. Just use core lol. What utility does rifle have thats so good?

Bow is surely far surperior.

Two reasons. 1200 range and perma cripple.

Skirmisher's Shot applies 4s of cripple for 3 init cost. Thief regen initiative at 1 init per second. Meaning I'm applying cripple for free, thus perma cripple. No other weapon set gives this kind of utility at 1200 range. At 3 init per shot, I could effectively kite my target while stacking Malice and Swiftness. It's even better value for the same cost when I kneel; cripple, immob, fury, and vigor. You can't get that kind of value with any other weapon skill. If you also spec for Acro and take Don't Stop, you're basically CC immune every time you use Rifle #2.

To compare that to Shortbow and calling Shortbow superior is amusing because Shortbow is wasteful and there is no value in it. Disabling Shot applies 2s of cripple at 4 init cost at 900 range is pathetic. No synergy with traits, nothing. Can you stealth when you dodge using a Shortbow? It's a dead weapon set that until ArenaNet take a serious look at it it's nothing but a utility stick to those who still enslaved with the +1 mentality.

Na I was referring to just with. If ur gonna switch to SD to fight and SD thief you are basically fighting handi capped. N like I said. If u unloaded ur burst and u try to disengage. Not only d u have less int. And cool downs you don't have the same traits other than the +10 % dmg

Again, that's the difference between Thiefs that uses DE. You waste your initiative on a burst and I'm sorry to say, that is rather noobish because you're betting everything in that burst which is not very smart. The fact that I use S/D should tell you that I don't waste initiatives without guaranteeing a kill. In my experience, noobish strategy like pouring all resource for a bust only works against noobish targets. Once you are face with someone who has more experience, you'll find yourself re-spawning at the base every time you try to pull that stunt.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

You survive by disengaging from an outnumber fights. Your ability to survive such a scenario is obviously lacking, so the best course of action is to not get in such situation or to escape such situation.

When I use dodge->DR, I immediately swap to S/D and control the fight that way. I don't know your capabilities to survive or to control a fight, so best use your own judgment on how much pressure you can endure. If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities.

You make it sound so easy on paper, dodge and skill 4 away then use s/d.

Except that while s/d u don’t have any of the traits a core thief has such as a passive, regen on evade, double steal etc etc. a d/p thief will just out stealth and kill you. Since it can now stay in stealth for longer it can backstab steal to finish u off n there no way for u to dodge something you can see that’s a 1 shot. U can’t run either since dash > you.

After burning 3x Dr, you also have no intitiative left to use anything on your sword. And 3x Dr won’t stop you from being chased down from other thieves or even rev, gadget holo.

Yes you still have burst dmg from rifle but with the new scrapper meta, all the reflects blocks and evades. If you burst hit nothing u get focused and have to run. You are basically a useless player. There is absolutely no point in play DE right now since the new meta will be scrapper and your rifle burst will do nothing.

Maybe that's the difference between Thiefs that uses DE. I personally don't use rifle other than as a utility stick. As I said;

"If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities."

EDIT: In addition, if you are being chased by more than one D/P Thief, it would not matter what your build is.

Then why even use deadeye. Just use core lol. What utility does rifle have thats so good?

Bow is surely far surperior.

Two reasons. 1200 range and perma cripple.

Skirmisher's Shot applies 4s of cripple for 3 init cost. Thief regen initiative at 1 init per second. Meaning I'm applying cripple for free, thus perma cripple. No other weapon set gives this kind of utility at 1200 range. At 3 init per shot, I could effectively kite my target while stacking Malice and Swiftness. It's even better value for the same cost when I kneel; cripple, immob, fury, and vigor. You can't get that kind of value with any other weapon skill. If you also spec for Acro and take Don't Stop, you're basically CC immune every time you use Rifle #2.

I hadn't actually thought about this properly and how it would work with antitoxin runes, thanks for that ^^

To compare that to Shortbow and calling Shortbow superior is amusing because Shortbow is wasteful and there is no value in it. Disabling Shot applies 2s of cripple at 4 init cost at 900 range is pathetic. No synergy with traits, nothing. Can you stealth when you dodge using a Shortbow? It's a dead weapon set that until ArenaNet take a serious look at it it's nothing but a utility stick to those who still enslaved with the +1 mentality.

Shortbow is a very good set for kiting, and can be very dangerous on a build set up for immob daze chains with trapper runes, choking gas, pressure striking and draining/absorption sigils. I will agree it's pretty niche compared to 1500 range and stealth on dodge though.

[TorQ.7041]

Yes I am just a total noob at plat level. I obviously have no idea what I am doing and magically got there. your insult completely makes ur argument a lot better. lol

short bow isn't wasteful lol. skill 4 and disengage is on of the best. its a disengage weapon with choking gas being great on downed. s/d has way more value, in terms of boon rip. mobility. overall sd is just better in every way with out the annoying 3 second stealth a DE had.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

You survive by disengaging from an outnumber fights. Your ability to survive such a scenario is obviously lacking, so the best course of action is to not get in such situation or to escape such situation.

When I use dodge->DR, I immediately swap to S/D and control the fight that way. I don't know your capabilities to survive or to control a fight, so best use your own judgment on how much pressure you can endure. If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities.

You make it sound so easy on paper, dodge and skill 4 away then use s/d.

Except that while s/d u don’t have any of the traits a core thief has such as a passive, regen on evade, double steal etc etc. a d/p thief will just out stealth and kill you. Since it can now stay in stealth for longer it can backstab steal to finish u off n there no way for u to dodge something you can see that’s a 1 shot. U can’t run either since dash > you.

After burning 3x Dr, you also have no intitiative left to use anything on your sword. And 3x Dr won’t stop you from being chased down from other thieves or even rev, gadget holo.

Yes you still have burst dmg from rifle but with the new scrapper meta, all the reflects blocks and evades. If you burst hit nothing u get focused and have to run. You are basically a useless player. There is absolutely no point in play DE right now since the new meta will be scrapper and your rifle burst will do nothing.

Maybe that's the difference between Thiefs that uses DE. I personally don't use rifle other than as a utility stick. As I said;

"If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities."

EDIT: In addition, if you are being chased by more than one D/P Thief, it would not matter what your build is.

Then why even use deadeye. Just use core lol. What utility does rifle have thats so good?

Bow is surely far surperior.

Two reasons. 1200 range and perma cripple.

Skirmisher's Shot applies 4s of cripple for 3 init cost. Thief regen initiative at 1 init per second. Meaning I'm applying cripple for free, thus perma cripple. No other weapon set gives this kind of utility at 1200 range. At 3 init per shot, I could effectively kite my target while stacking Malice and Swiftness. It's even better value for the same cost when I kneel; cripple, immob, fury, and vigor. You can't get that kind of value with any other weapon skill. If you also spec for Acro and take Don't Stop, you're basically CC immune every time you use Rifle #2.

To compare that to Shortbow and calling Shortbow superior is amusing because Shortbow is wasteful and there is no value in it. Disabling Shot applies 2s of cripple at 4 init cost at 900 range is pathetic. No synergy with traits, nothing. Can you stealth when you dodge using a Shortbow? It's a dead weapon set that until ArenaNet take a serious look at it it's nothing but a utility stick to those who still enslaved with the +1 mentality.

Na I was referring to just with. If ur gonna switch to SD to fight and SD thief you are basically fighting handi capped. N like I said. If u unloaded ur burst and u try to disengage. Not only d u have less int. And cool downs you don't have the same traits other than the +10 % dmg

Again, that's the difference between Thiefs that uses DE. You waste your initiative on a burst and I'm sorry to say, that is rather noobish because you're betting everything in that burst which is not very smart. The fact that I use S/D should tell you that I don't waste initiatives without guaranteeing a kill. In my experience, noobish strategy like pouring all resource for a bust only works against noobish targets. Once you are face with someone who has more experience, you'll find yourself re-spawning at the base every time you try to pull that stunt.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

You survive by disengaging from an outnumber fights. Your ability to survive such a scenario is obviously lacking, so the best course of action is to not get in such situation or to escape such situation.

When I use dodge->DR, I immediately swap to S/D and control the fight that way. I don't know your capabilities to survive or to control a fight, so best use your own judgment on how much pressure you can endure. If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities.

You make it sound so easy on paper, dodge and skill 4 away then use s/d.

Except that while s/d u don’t have any of the traits a core thief has such as a passive, regen on evade, double steal etc etc. a d/p thief will just out stealth and kill you. Since it can now stay in stealth for longer it can backstab steal to finish u off n there no way for u to dodge something you can see that’s a 1 shot. U can’t run either since dash > you.

After burning 3x Dr, you also have no intitiative left to use anything on your sword. And 3x Dr won’t stop you from being chased down from other thieves or even rev, gadget holo.

Yes you still have burst dmg from rifle but with the new scrapper meta, all the reflects blocks and evades. If you burst hit nothing u get focused and have to run. You are basically a useless player. There is absolutely no point in play DE right now since the new meta will be scrapper and your rifle burst will do nothing.

Maybe that's the difference between Thiefs that uses DE. I personally don't use rifle other than as a utility stick. As I said;

"If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities."

EDIT: In addition, if you are being chased by more than one D/P Thief, it would not matter what your build is.

Then why even use deadeye. Just use core lol. What utility does rifle have thats so good?

Bow is surely far surperior.

Two reasons. 1200 range and perma cripple.

Skirmisher's Shot applies 4s of cripple for 3 init cost. Thief regen initiative at 1 init per second. Meaning I'm applying cripple for free, thus perma cripple. No other weapon set gives this kind of utility at 1200 range. At 3 init per shot, I could effectively kite my target while stacking Malice and Swiftness. It's even better value for the same cost when I kneel; cripple, immob, fury, and vigor. You can't get that kind of value with any other weapon skill. If you also spec for Acro and take Don't Stop, you're basically CC immune every time you use Rifle #2.

To compare that to Shortbow and calling Shortbow superior is amusing because Shortbow is wasteful and there is no value in it. Disabling Shot applies 2s of cripple at 4 init cost at 900 range is pathetic. No synergy with traits, nothing. Can you stealth when you dodge using a Shortbow? It's a dead weapon set that until ArenaNet take a serious look at it it's nothing but a utility stick to those who still enslaved with the +1 mentality.

Na I was referring to just with. If ur gonna switch to SD to fight and SD thief you are basically fighting handi capped. N like I said. If u unloaded ur burst and u try to disengage. Not only d u have less int. And cool downs you don't have the same traits other than the +10 % dmg

Again, that's the difference between Thiefs that uses DE. You waste your initiative on a burst and I'm sorry to say, that is rather noobish because you're betting everything in that burst which is not very smart. The fact that I use S/D should tell you that I don't waste initiatives without guaranteeing a kill. In my experience, noobish strategy like pouring all resource for a bust only works against noobish targets. Once you are face with someone who has more experience, you'll find yourself re-spawning at the base every time you try to pull that stunt.

[Murmaider.1805]

Stealth is virtually off the table for thieves. Engi does it better, mesmer does it better, heck even rangers can have some nice stealth. And with the changes in wvw where i'm revealed virtually 2 out of 3 times with nowhere to go or run, I suggest switching to a S/P build and banking on Dagger Storm hard.

In PvP I'm having a blast as a S/P Rifle DE.In WvW I'm having a blast as a S/P SB DD.

[Turk.5460]

@Edge.8724 said:

@"Doggie.3184" said:because DJ needed to be even more telegraphed and counterable apparently because it's the ruling god in all pvp. I guess people constantly demand even more future sight of it. Eventually people will be able to predict the exact time a Thief will use it 5 hours ahead of time as well as have their own personal "The World" that automatically stops time before it hits them.

Full Counter

and Winds of Disenchantment says "Hello!"

What? The instant cast ability that you have the option of using while your opponent is in the midst of attacking you? Please tell me how you believe FC has a tell comparable to WoD and DJ, I'm very curious regarding your reasoning here.

@Murmaider.1805 said:Stealth is virtually off the table for thieves.

D/P Daredevil is plenty viable in WvW and still has better access to stealth than the three other professions you mentioned.

[Murmaider.1805]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Edge.8724 said:

@"Doggie.3184" said:because DJ needed to be even more telegraphed and counterable apparently because it's the ruling god in all pvp. I guess people constantly demand even more future sight of it. Eventually people will be able to predict the exact time a Thief will use it 5 hours ahead of time as well as have their own personal "The World" that automatically stops time before it hits them.

Full Counter

and Winds of Disenchantment says "Hello!"

What? The

instant cast

ability that you have the option of using

while your opponent is in the midst of attacking you

? Please tell me how you believe FC has a tell comparable to WoD and DJ, I'm very curious regarding your reasoning here.

@Murmaider.1805 said:Stealth is virtually off the table for thieves.

D/P Daredevil is plenty viable in WvW and still has better access to stealth than the three other professions you mentioned.

D/P is so touch and go, but you're right that an experience player will make it work

[kash.9213]

@Murmaider.1805 said:Stealth is virtually off the table for thieves. Engi does it better, mesmer does it better, heck even rangers can have some nice stealth. And with the changes in wvw where i'm revealed virtually 2 out of 3 times with nowhere to go or run, I suggest switching to a S/P build and banking on Dagger Storm hard.

In PvP I'm having a blast as a S/P Rifle DE.In WvW I'm having a blast as a S/P SB DD.

Premeditation isn't bad in general for WvW but It feels pretty good with Rending Shade along with the usual Trickery. I'd been using it before the Silent Scope change anyway but then I play around Snipers Cover a lot for map travel stealth or for circle strafing/positioning stealth or just for the cover itself and I guess a lot of people just don't like messing around in Kneel, which is understandable because it can get kinda janky in transition.

[Macuk.4789]

I will be talking only about sPvP only. I hang around plat 1 - plat 2 and have been playing deadeye as my main for 6 months now. Since I was new at the game I wanted to play something more beginner friendly, I haven't master the class but I feel confident playing it. But as I learned more and more about the roles every profession have I find thief to be in a very bad spot and Anet just doesn't have a clear perspective about thief. So as a thief in the beginning of a match you are expected to go +1 far or mid. In the beginning of a match you decide to go MID, no matter the build, do your burst, retreat, if focused as a deadeye compared to core thief you can't do shit to survive, with those 3s stealth you could actually change position when you see enemy team is focusing you, now the best you can do is, lets say u have S/P and leave a shadow retreat or use shadowstep to get out of the fight than comeback but thats all you can do in team fight in mid you do your burst in 10 sec and thats it. If your team doesnt follow your burst or they rez the downed player, you are useless for the next 20 sec in team fight no mark, abilities on cooldown, so the best option is to chase someone who survived on low HP from mid, if lets say is a holo and u dont have stun break chasing someone for a kill can easily turn to you being killed cuz he sees you going after him you are not stealthed. Third option is to go far to +1 if there is a profession you can actually do damage to or immobilize/stun it. If there is a soulbeast they just won't die, as they have huge sustain and equal or more mobility than a deadeye has and will kite all day long. If its a scrapper or other bunker class you are just wasting time. So you dont have the factor of surprise anymore cuz this 1s stealth on dodge is just to detarget not useful at all. If 80% of the games develop like this why is deadeye needed? If your enemy team has a core thief, he will just farm you the whole game. All those crying about deadeye in sPvP thats why a game is interesting, you fight 1v1 on point a deadeye comes in stealth to you, react fast, survive the burst, or focus him instantly, feel the adrenaline rush, not just sit there and try to survive a duel on a neutral point thats soo boring. And now as a deadeye you cant stack up stealth they see you coming and just focus you, no mechanism to survive. The game is just getting easier and boring play a bunker class wait for your enemy to misuse their cooldowns than kill him. If the problem is in WvW fix it there dont ruin the class in sPvP

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@TorQ.7041 said:Yes I am just a total noob at plat level. I obviously have no idea what I am doing and magically got there. your insult completely makes ur argument a lot better. lol

short bow isn't wasteful lol. skill 4 and disengage is on of the best. its a disengage weapon with choking gas being great on downed. s/d has way more value, in terms of boon rip. mobility. overall sd is just better in every way with out the annoying 3 second stealth a DE had.

You rank level means nothing since you didn't get there on your own. Your rank is based on your team composition, not your personal build.

[Urejt.5648]

I switched from Deadweight to staffdevil and iam happy ranking up from bronze.

[DrFox.8091]

I dont really enjoy Pvp modes on this game tbh. In the past i tried to do Pvp dailys but only with Power Deadeye. Stealth saved me few times yeah, but i cant tell if its a huge lost in Pvp, i dont play it enought.However, i tried a "weird" condi build in WvW few month ago and i was surprised coz i started to like roaming. I'm not saying i could hunt all the class with it, but it was really fun to have that kind of skill control and if an angry war, engi or guard was after me, i had good chance to survive. Engi was already a broken class to me but..Nowdays, thanks Stealth nerf and the Warclaw, i dont Roam anymore.And even doing my dailys are became a burden.So the last patch killed my exotic condi build in WvW and "promoted" the Scrapper build in Pvp.Im sorry to say that, but the more we got patch like this, the more i'm thrust to play fashion war.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

You survive by disengaging from an outnumber fights. Your ability to survive such a scenario is obviously lacking, so the best course of action is to not get in such situation or to escape such situation.

When I use dodge->DR, I immediately swap to S/D and control the fight that way. I don't know your capabilities to survive or to control a fight, so best use your own judgment on how much pressure you can endure. If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities.

You make it sound so easy on paper, dodge and skill 4 away then use s/d.

Except that while s/d u don’t have any of the traits a core thief has such as a passive, regen on evade, double steal etc etc. a d/p thief will just out stealth and kill you. Since it can now stay in stealth for longer it can backstab steal to finish u off n there no way for u to dodge something you can see that’s a 1 shot. U can’t run either since dash > you.

After burning 3x Dr, you also have no intitiative left to use anything on your sword. And 3x Dr won’t stop you from being chased down from other thieves or even rev, gadget holo.

Yes you still have burst dmg from rifle but with the new scrapper meta, all the reflects blocks and evades. If you burst hit nothing u get focused and have to run. You are basically a useless player. There is absolutely no point in play DE right now since the new meta will be scrapper and your rifle burst will do nothing.

Maybe that's the difference between Thiefs that uses DE. I personally don't use rifle other than as a utility stick. As I said;

"If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities."

EDIT: In addition, if you are being chased by more than one D/P Thief, it would not matter what your build is.

Then why even use deadeye. Just use core lol. What utility does rifle have thats so good?

Bow is surely far surperior.

Na I was referring to just with. If ur gonna switch to SD to fight and SD thief you are basically fighting handi capped. N like I said. If u unloaded ur burst and u try to disengage. Not only d u have less int. And cool downs you don't have the same traits other than the +10 % dmg

1200/1500 ranged damage, Strong boon access, higher burst damage, reveal-cleansing, no-cast-time stealth proc access/dodge++, high initiative recovery, a monster 2s knockdown...

If you think permastealth DE was the only reason to play DE you're very mistaken.

[TorQ.7041]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aihao.5824 said:completely unplayable, 1s stealth makes 0 chance to survive while focused

If I'm focused, I dodge (stealth) sideways -> Death's Retreat back. Epic juke move.You can also extend the stealth to 2s, remove a condition, and apply regen if you spec for SA.You can also convert the bonus Precision from Scope to Ferocity and get a buff that gives you 100% crit from stealth if you spec for CS.

me did the same (roll+dr) how u survive against hard pressure, when 2 guardians try to focus u? are u using d/p stealth to outplay ppl in stalthing and than finish with dj?

You survive by disengaging from an outnumber fights. Your ability to survive such a scenario is obviously lacking, so the best course of action is to not get in such situation or to escape such situation.

When I use dodge->DR, I immediately swap to S/D and control the fight that way. I don't know your capabilities to survive or to control a fight, so best use your own judgment on how much pressure you can endure. If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities.

You make it sound so easy on paper, dodge and skill 4 away then use s/d.

Except that while s/d u don’t have any of the traits a core thief has such as a passive, regen on evade, double steal etc etc. a d/p thief will just out stealth and kill you. Since it can now stay in stealth for longer it can backstab steal to finish u off n there no way for u to dodge something you can see that’s a 1 shot. U can’t run either since dash > you.

After burning 3x Dr, you also have no intitiative left to use anything on your sword. And 3x Dr won’t stop you from being chased down from other thieves or even rev, gadget holo.

Yes you still have burst dmg from rifle but with the new scrapper meta, all the reflects blocks and evades. If you burst hit nothing u get focused and have to run. You are basically a useless player. There is absolutely no point in play DE right now since the new meta will be scrapper and your rifle burst will do nothing.

Maybe that's the difference between Thiefs that uses DE. I personally don't use rifle other than as a utility stick. As I said;

"If you're dying in such pressure or in that kind of situation, it seems to me you are overestimating your own abilities."

EDIT: In addition, if you are being chased by more than one D/P Thief, it would not matter what your build is.

Then why even use deadeye. Just use core lol. What utility does rifle have thats so good?

Bow is surely far surperior.

Na I was referring to just with. If ur gonna switch to SD to fight and SD thief you are basically fighting handi capped. N like I said. If u unloaded ur burst and u try to disengage. Not only d u have less int. And cool downs you don't have the same traits other than the +10 % dmg

1200/1500 ranged damage, Strong boon access, higher burst damage, reveal-cleansing, no-cast-time stealth proc access/dodge++, high initiative recovery, a monster 2s knockdown...

If you think permastealth DE was the only reason to play DE you're very mistaken.

You are very mistaken by putting words in my mouth I didn't write. No where did I say permanent stealth was the reason to play DE.

Only players in silver where they haven't learnt the mechanics do permanent stealth builds. Just not enough dmg for it to be meaningful.

Two things that longer stealth uptime was needed was the ability to pick your fights, set up your shot and disengage.

You don't have strong boon access. You have it through the same means as a SD thief. Granted binding shadows is Abit op. A stun break can resolve that.

Non of these things a DE can d better than a ranger can do. You also only have 1500 range when you kneel. At a higher level no DE kneels. It's just not a good idea. So basically 1200 range.

You int recover is higher through mercy and m7? So what? You can take rfi and have int recover. Having more int isn't going to help you if a rev or thief is already on you. You will have to either get out of rifle to SD or do in which non of your traits align as well as what core and DD does with the weapon sets. Such as Regen, passive, int Regen on evade etc. Absolutely zero.

If you stay rifle you can press skill 4 to leave. Congratulations. You didn't kill anything and you can't stay any longer to do anything.

Dagger storm is far better than shadow meld. Since the low amount of stealth up time you will be revealed and be instantly ported on. There is no point having this de stealth removal. It's not significant enough to do anything.

There's nothing a DE can really do that's better than what a ranger can do. A ranger can have just as high dps. It has a longer cool down yes. But in exchange it has far better mobility, melee capability.

With no defense compensation for the stealth down time. A DE is just dead weight. I am sure there are DEs who can still make the work. But the reality is. It's far inferior than other builds.

That's why once you get to higher rankings. DEs are few and between. This whole season I only ever saw 1 and the sic em ranger on the other team destroyed him over and over. SD thief just contributes more and a ranger is far better at roaming than a DE can be.