Fractals and slippery slope

[DrFox.8091]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72087/welcome-back-to-guild-wars-2#latestSo now we got this kind of "event"..?Wonder if we'll have the luck to see how devs manage their own broken insta.. ^^

About slippery, maybe some people like it yeah, but wich kind of players? And wich percent of global players this kind represent?Casual game here, so i knew casual players who were staying in the game between LW episodes for fractal enjoyment (+ some other reasons), doing dailys or fractal achievements with guildys. Thanks new instas, some of them just stop this content. Some people already had difficulties with T4 before, even if they play since sa while. Questions of playtime/ gear/will to only play with friends/...

Now for the "geeks", maybe those insta were welcome as a breeze of fresh air yep. But slippery slope...I believe the majority of players hate it. No matter if they are casuals or not. I'll not repeat all the reasons why, we already got plenty. To me the worst is the motion sickness, during and after the run. You cant blame people for avoiding a thing who make them sick in a way or an other.

To me the good question is why Anet try to make this insta (or some others) as a "hard content thing(s)" when Raids doesnt need this kind of trick to BE a hard content.Maybe the answer is "we haven't a better way to entertain you than to slow (bore) you as much as possible".So for all players coming back in fractals, welcome back in boring wars ;)

[phs.6089]

@squallaus.8321 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@squallaus.8321 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@squallaus.8321 said:

@phs.6089 said:

Stop answering to my question with a question. It was you that stated

Again I did answer your question but you simply did not have the intellect to arrive at the logical conclusion. If you insist I will spell it out for you. None of the traits affect instabilities, they only affect your survival rates under the pressure of certain instabilities. So again why is Slippery Slope being singled out. Which instabilities do you actually find "fun and challenging". And when is end game mechanic in any game not "annoying" until a player has conquered it?

I think you will find the problem does not lie with my defending any instability, but rather the problem lies with your perspective. Your perspective is wrong, unrealistic and unreasonable.

Wrong! e.g Cleansing traits and utilities affect afflicted and fire, retaliation affects birds and fire etc.Talk about intelligence and L2P now

You're the one that is wrong. Slippery slope affects positioning. With the right utils, weapon skills, traits and dodging a players position can be adjusting even under the influence of slippery slope. So there are counters for slippery slope just like every other instability. So again why is Slippery Slope being singled out? Which instabilities do you actually find "fun and challenging"? And when is end game mechanic in any game not "annoying" until a player has conquered it?

Positioning is choosing your location, whatever location you chose you are affected by SS.Still no answer on traits and utilities that can affect/nullify/counter SS.

Not correct. Slippery Slope has no effect unless the player moves or get knocked away. Immediately after a teleport the character won't move, after a dodge is completed a character won't move. Using certain utilities and skills you can stop slippery slope movements and having certain traits will complement these skills. The purpose of slippery slope is to stop the player from getting into desired position easily and quickly but can be completely countered if a player choose to use certain movement skills and dodging. You are just ignorant.

Doesn't 'positioning' includes movement/s?I'm still waiting on a single utility or/and trait example that will counter SS.

[squallaus.8321]

@Asum.4960 said:

@squallaus.8321 said:Players tend to blame things other than themselves though when they fail even though the solution is right in front of them. Some people still click their skills when playing but then say fractal instabilities are too tedious. What the developers should do though is give extra rewards, such as extra mystic coin, for certain instability combinations.

Again, non of these players I know are failing at Fractals with slippery slope. We still do 100CM in 10 Minutes, Slippery or not.The point is, they simply don't want to bother any more, because Slippery Slope takes away the thing that is fun about it, the precise and responsive combat system and gameplay.

Except the game is just as responsive slippery slope or not. You think the server respond slower when slippery slope is active? The only difference is the characters movements are different than without slippery slope.

@squallaus.8321 said:But alot of these skips weren't originally intended though so you're arguing for something that wasn't originally intended.

Sure, but finding these shortcuts and utilizing them effectively adds to the complexity of Fractals and rewards players for being knowledgeable and proficient at the content.Unlike other Instabilities, Slippery Slope makes a lot of that a chore, without a way to counter it mechanically.

You're basically asking for shortcuts. This is not a valid point against slippery slope as the shortcuts were not intended in the first place.

@squallaus.8321 said:It is more difficult than other instabilities in the sense that it prevents the players from getting into position to avoid dmg etc if players play it in their usual way. Players can overshoot when they finally arrive at their desired positions. Therefore players are more likely to get hit etc. But again this is a positioning problem that can be countered by weapon skills, utils, traits and dodging.

I personally never felt challenged by Slippery Slope, even the very first time with it on 100CM, it just took 1-2 Minutes longer than without, partially because people got stuck in terrain twice and had to GG and walk back, and leap skills not working properly for movement under Slippery.It just drained all enjoyment out of the experience and felt like a chore to get through, fighting controls instead of mechanics.

So tell the devs fix the terrain bugs. Problem solved.

It comes down to me appreciating Instabilities that put control into the players hands over how to deal with them, be it picking certain Traits or Utilities to counter them, or requiring increased awareness to things usually ignored, like a lone add in the back becoming dangerous with Outflanked and Afflicted.

Again, there are alot of counters to Slippery Slope with weapon skills, utils traits and dodging being common to all classes. Some classes have more counters than others.

Instabilities that take control away from the player are a no go for me.I don't like sliding around all over the place, I wouldn't appreciate an Instability using random skills instead of what I press, or my character moving in random directions with every movement input. That's just not fun to me.

And what make you think sliding around with slippery slope is random? It is not random.

In my opinion, Instabilities should mechanically add to the gameplay of Fractals and make it more interesting and challenging, without being so obtrusive that they become all you think about, trumping the mechanics of the Fractal/Bosses itself.

Yes with slippery slope the mechanic is you now have to release the forward button earlier before you arrive at your desired destination and press the direction button opposite to your character movement to prevent overshoot. I think you're just selectively picking what mechanics you like and don't like. You can have your preferences but you can't have the falsehood that there are no counters to slippery slope. There are counters you just choose to ignore them.

[Vinceman.4572]

Wow, we found this one player who likes Slippery Slope and defends it. It's fine, we understood.One a more serious note the majority that includes speed runners + the usual fractal crowd do not like that stuff. Reddit is full of criticism and lots of players stopped running fractals which is a shame because they are at least decent content. Anyways it's not a matter of adapting or being without skill (fractal god, 500+ cm kps here) Slippery Slope is just annoying and takes the fun out of running fracs. That's all. Fractals weren't hard before or after the patch. Except for usual T4 groups which have a way higher chance of failing nowadays. I don't think that Anet had this in mind when they were changing instabilities. The system doesn't work (long enough) if only a small group remains and annoy others because they think everything is fine although they are heavily wrong.

[squallaus.8321]

@Vinceman.4572 said:Wow, we found this one player who likes Slippery Slope and defends it. It's fine, we understood.

You understand nothing. What I am defending is the truth that there are counters to slippery slope. A fact that a group of people is pretending does not exist because they dislike this instability and they want to spread the falsehood that there are no counters in an effort to drive negative sentiments in the community towards this instability.

One a more serious note the majority that includes speed runners + the usual fractal crowd do not like that stuff. Reddit is full of criticism and lots of players stopped running fractals which is a shame because they are at least decent content. Anyways it's not a matter of adapting or being without skill (fractal god, 500+ cm kps here) Slippery Slope is just annoying and takes the fun out of running fracs. That's all. Fractals weren't hard before or after the patch.Except for usual T4 groups which have a way higher chance of failing nowadays. I don't think that Anet had this in mind when they were changing instabilities. The system doesn't work (long enough) if only a small group remains and annoy others because they think everything is fine although they are heavily wrong.

Then maybe you lot should start telling the truth about Slippery Slope, that there are in fact counters for it, just like every other instability so that players are well informed going into fractals knowing now to handle it - leading to increase in success rate.

[SidewayS.3789]

@"squallaus.8321" said:Then maybe you lot should start telling the truth about Slippery Slope, that there are in fact counters for it, just like every other instability so that players are well informed going into fractals knowing now to handle it - leading to increase in success rate.

Counters for Slippery? Do you play another game? Or you still are learning english and you think "counters" its a term from Counter Strike? YOU DON'T have counters for slippery (even though, the half part of the description says "increase stab duration") so, by their words, Stability should counter Slippery. But like peoples said, above me, you are not in some group for CMs+T4, because noone will take a mirage in their group.

[CptAurellian.9537]

The stability part of SS is absolutely hilarious - slap something useless on the instability to pretend there is a positive effect (same with birds, btw). Anyway, altering very basic gameplay on such a fundamental level, without even having a counter mechanic, was an incredibly stupid decision that should be revoked asap. And no, crippling yourself by trying to play around it a bit is not a counter.

[Vinceman.4572]

@squallaus.8321 said:You understand nothing. What I am defending is the truth that there are counters to slippery slope. A fact that a group of people is pretending does not exist because they dislike this instability and they want to spread the falsehood that there are no counters in an effort to drive negative sentiments in the community towards this instability.

Then maybe you lot should start telling the truth about Slippery Slope, that there are in fact counters for it, just like every other instability so that players are well informed going into fractals knowing now to handle it - leading to increase in success rate.

As the others already have mentioned: There is no counter to Slippery Slope. Get your facts straight.

[nickiehu.1674]

In fact, there is a counter... you can actually stop sliding, when you press the button for running backwards for a moment. yes slippery slope makes movement based skills hard to use, but ppl should really start to adapt. Last week I came back to fractals after not playing them since the rework, cause I "feared" the new instabilities. But I never had such a blast, especially with slippery slope. And I never had problems, not even in Deepstone, cause it just comes down to use your brain and the special action key in the right time (or just negate the slide by pressing the backward running button).

[Spike.5073]

Please just stopthe overrepresentation of your opinion.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Blueberry.8095 said:Not moving? Are we talking about facing bosses who don't phase, don't move from its original location, don't teleport, doesn't spawn mob, or doesn't spam AOE on players?

Oh, that certainly works ... in stuff like T1 fractals :)

Oops, don't have SS there.

[Hex.2579]

Didn't have a single problem on slippery slope with pugs. But of course I was on a healer. I'm constantly reminding them of their position so they don't get outflanked. And protection boon at the right time saves the day.I like fractals and the new ones really up a notch for our player base. You need to watch where you stand and apply boons to negate some damage or bring a different utility that will help the group, etc. It makes game play more active rather than just jump in and dps like dungeons, and half th time skip skip skip.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"squallaus.8321" said:Except i did answer your question. So which instability do you find "fun and challenging"?

Last LaughFlux BombMists ConvergenceToxic TrailAfflictedStick TogetherHamstrungWe Bleed Fire

All of those require a change in utilities or party tactics. You might also notice almost all of them are from the pre-rework.

Ones I don't even notice are active and therefore boring:

No Pain No GainAdrenaline RushFractal VIndicatorsBoon OverloadVengeanceSugar Rush

None of those prompt any changes on the part of the player. Professions that have boon strip baked into their rotation will derive extra benefits, but given there are so few classes that do that already, it's a null point.

Instabilities that are pure and complete nonsense, and are terrible in design:

Social Awkwardness: both the current and previous version prevent players from playing the game the way it is supposed to be played. Stick Together is an intelligently designed instability, SA never has been nor is it currently.

Outflanked: Given how the activator for this instability is so poorly designed, it just leads to players getting 1-2 shot.

Frailty: What nonsense, as if moving 25% faster matters at all... At least if it was endurance regen that was buffed to help with additional dodges, that would make sense, but instead this instability is just a flat reduction in player health, period. Or maybe the devs mistakenly think that running faster means the enemy mobs have a greater chance of missing their attacks?

Slippery Slope: No way to counter it, doesn't add challenge or excitement to the fight as it just makes it awkward to play.

Birds: This instability actually could almost qualify as fun and challenging but for a few reasons, the greatest of them being you need to use a dodge vs the instability instead of the boss, and in certain boss fights, that's very punishing. And again it's counter intuitive, since we should be teaching players to preserve their dodges for use in specific circumstances, not just use them willy nilly. Add to that birds can attack you when in the air (TO, SO), using cannons on Sirens', and they have the added annoyance of keeping you in combat when moving from fight to fight which prevents skill swap / mistlock refresh, can eat your cleave damage, and when paired with last laugh / we bleed fire creates a chain reaction of sheer stupidity. Simple playtesting would have revealed these major flaws, but I guess we're all still beta testing this one.

I went from doing my T4 dailies every day to doing them maybe 2-4 times a week, and that is 100% because of these instabilities; not because they are hard, as I have a 100% success rate of finishing my dailies since the rework, but because they make the fractal less fun to play and more of a chore, and since I don't need relics, ascended chests or even gold for that matter, why do something that isn't fun when not necessary?

The devs said the purpose of the rework was to promote a more positive gaming experience. I'd say they failed for the most part.

[Blueberry.8095]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"squallaus.8321" said:Except i did answer your question. So which instability do you find "fun and challenging"?

Last LaughFlux BombMists ConvergenceToxic TrailAfflictedStick TogetherHamstrungWe Bleed Fire

All of those require a change in utilities or party tactics. You might also notice almost all of them are from the pre-rework.

Ones I don't even notice are active and therefore boring:

No Pain No GainAdrenaline RushFractal VIndicatorsBoon OverloadVengeanceSugar Rush

None of those prompt any changes on the part of the player. Professions that have boon strip baked into their rotation will derive extra benefits, but given there are so few classes that do that already, it's a null point.

Instabilities that are pure and complete nonsense, and are terrible in design:

Social Awkwardness: both the current and previous version prevent players from playing the game the way it is supposed to be played. Stick Together is an intelligently designed instability, SA never has been nor is it currently.

Outflanked: Given how the activator for this instability is so poorly designed, it just leads to players getting 1-2 shot.

Frailty: What nonsense, as if moving 25% faster matters at all... At least if it was endurance regen that was buffed to help with additional dodges, that would make sense, but instead this instability is just a flat reduction in player health, period. Or maybe the devs mistakenly think that running faster means the enemy mobs have a greater chance of missing their attacks?

Slippery Slope: No way to counter it, doesn't add challenge or excitement to the fight as it just makes it awkward to play.

Birds: This instability actually could almost qualify as fun and challenging but for a few reasons, the greatest of them being you need to use a dodge vs the instability instead of the boss, and in certain boss fights, that's very punishing. And again it's counter intuitive, since we should be teaching players to preserve their dodges for use in specific circumstances, not just use them willy nilly. Add to that birds can attack you when in the air (TO, SO), using cannons on Sirens', and they have the added annoyance of keeping you in combat when moving from fight to fight which prevents skill swap / mistlock refresh, can eat your cleave damage, and when paired with last laugh / we bleed fire creates a chain reaction of sheer stupidity. Simple playtesting would have revealed these major flaws, but I guess we're all still beta testing this one.

I went from doing my T4 dailies every day to doing them maybe 2-4 times a week, and that is 100% because of these instabilities; not because they are hard, as I have a 100% success rate of finishing my dailies since the rework, but because they make the fractal less fun to play and more of a chore, and since I don't need relics, ascended chests or even gold for that matter, why do something that isn't fun when not necessary?

The devs said the purpose of the rework was to promote a more positive gaming experience. I'd say they failed for the most part.

Although you "fun and challenging" and "meh" list are different than mine, and I don't mind SA as much, but the words you used to describe Outflanked, Frailty, Slippery Slope, and Birds has deeply touched me, this is exactly how I felt (also plus the fact that Slippery gives me motion sickness ><)! Thank you! Have a beer!

[Vinceman.4572]

Today is a good day.

"FractalsBirds and Slippery Slope have been removed from the list of possible mistlock instabilities. Slippery Slope is still available on the Fractal Console guild decoration.

We Bleed Fire will now damage enemies when reflected, and it can now hit player minions. The duration of applied burning has been reduced from 10 seconds to 3 seconds."

[Spike.5073]

Thread can be closed now. I'm really, really happy.

[Asum.4960]

Birds and Slippery Slope have been removed from the list of possible mistlock instabilities. Slippery Slope is still available on the Fractal Console guild decoration.

Praise the Six.

Anet listens.

I feel like Birds could have been tweaked to be less annoying and could have been fine, but I'm not going to miss it.Truly hope Slippery Slope is gone forever though.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"Vinceman.4572" said:Today is a good day.

"FractalsBirds and Slippery Slope have been removed from the list of possible mistlock instabilities. Slippery Slope is still available on the Fractal Console guild decoration.

We Bleed Fire will now damage enemies when reflected, and it can now hit player minions. The duration of applied burning has been reduced from 10 seconds to 3 seconds."

It is nice to see ANET listening to feedback. The question now is whether they are scrapping them altogether, or they took them down because the need time to craft a fix. Either way, great move in taking them out of the rotation. :+1:

[squallaus.8321]

@SidewayS.3789 said:

@squallaus.8321 said:

Then maybe you lot should start telling the truth about Slippery Slope, that there are in fact counters for it, just like every other instability so that players are well informed going into fractals knowing now to handle it - leading to increase in success rate.

Counters for Slippery? Do you play another game? Or you still are learning english and you think "counters" its a term from Counter Strike? YOU DON'T have counters for slippery (even though, the half part of the description says "increase stab duration") so, by their words, Stability should counter Slippery. But like peoples said, above me, you are not in some group for CMs+T4, because noone will take a mirage in their group.

Quite clearly you don't play guild wars 2. Slippery slope affects character movements. What is the point of movements? To get from A to B. Logic dictates there are weapon skills utils and traits that assist getting from A to B without the need to use direction buttons, therefore completely countering slippery slope. Having extra dodges is also a counter to slippery slope.

@CptAurellian.9537 said:The stability part of SS is absolutely hilarious - slap something useless on the instability to pretend there is a positive effect (same with birds, btw). Anyway, altering very basic gameplay on such a fundamental level, without even having a counter mechanic, was an incredibly stupid decision that should be revoked asap. And no, crippling yourself by trying to play around it a bit is not a counter.

@Vinceman.4572 said:As the others already have mentioned: There is no counter to Slippery Slope. Get your facts straight.

Except there are plenty of counter mechanics against slippery slope. A few of you are just too biased to see it.

@phs.6089 said:Doesn't 'positioning' includes movement/s?I'm still waiting on a single utility or/and trait example that will counter SS.

Any skills that affect movement. Any traits that assist in movement skills being used more frequently. If you still don't know I suggest you consult gw2 wiki.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

Slippery Slope: No way to counter it, doesn't add challenge or excitement to the fight as it just makes it awkward to play.

Biggest lie ever told by a portion of the gw2 community since the release of the game is that there are no counters to Slippery Slope. There are more counters to slippery slope (movement weapon and util skills, traits that lowered those skill CDs and dodging) than there is counter for birds (only dodging).

[squallaus.8321]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:Today is a good day.

"FractalsBirds and Slippery Slope have been removed from the list of possible mistlock instabilities. Slippery Slope is still available on the Fractal Console guild decoration.

We Bleed Fire will now damage enemies when reflected, and it can now hit player minions. The duration of applied burning has been reduced from 10 seconds to 3 seconds."

It is nice to see ANET listening to feedback. The question now is whether they are scrapping them altogether, or they took them down because the need time to craft a fix. Either way, great move in taking them out of the rotation. :+1:

It is indeed nice that ANET listens to feedback. But what is not nice is a portion of the gw2 community lying about Slippery Slope having no counters to the average player in order to get ANET to listen and remove Slippery Slope.

[Eramonster.2718]

Dash and leap skills(mostly if not all) will continue to slide after the end animation. Melee target assist helps in a way, players will stop when collide with their targetted enemy (but skills that have a chance to overshot won't be).

Theres's a chance for channeling skills to be cancelled mid-cast(putting it on cd) when S.S is coupled with Social Awkwardness (terrain).

[squallaus.8321]

@Eramonster.2718 said:Dash and leap skills(mostly if not all) will continue to slide after the end animation. Melee target assist helps in a way, players will stop when collide with their targetted enemy (but skills that have a chance to overshot won't be).

Melee target assist should never be used as colliding with the enemy is part of effective kiting. It depends on the leap skill, some will slide the entire way, some will only slide towards the end, some will teleport and completely circumvent slippery slope. But in all cases of sliding the players can make adjustments with the direction butttons while they contnue to attack. This is because moving and attacking at the same time is possible in gw2. Your movement shouldn't have impact on your skill casts.And dodging acted as a form of adjustment and hard counter to slipperly slope that allowed the player to dodge at any time and at any direction without sliding after the dodge.

Theres's a chance for channeling skills to be cancelled mid-cast(putting it on cd) when S.S is coupled with Social Awkwardness (terrain).

I peronally have not seen this happen. But even if it did happen arguably this is due to the player to player interaction under the effects of social awkwardness not slipperly slope.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"squallaus.8321" said:I peronally have not seen this happen. But even if it did happen arguably this is due to the player to player interaction under the effects of social awkwardness not slipperly slope.

See, and this is why it's pointless to argue with people that have no clue about the whole thing. If you have played another class besides your mirage you would have noticed it, for example druid staff 3. It has nothing to do with "player to player under the effects of social awkwardness not slipperly slope".

And you are still wrong there was no direct counter to Slippery Slope.

[squallaus.8321]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"squallaus.8321" said:I peronally have not seen this happen. But even if it did happen arguably this is due to the player to player interaction under the effects of social awkwardness not slipperly slope.

See, and this is why it's pointless to argue with people that have no clue about the whole thing. If you have played another class besides your mirage you would have noticed it, for example druid staff 3. It has nothing to do with "player to player under the effects of social awkwardness not slipperly slope".

And you are still wrong there was no direct counter to Slippery Slope.

More like you're the one who should play something other than druid. In case you missed it in the thread I've also mentioned having no problems on power reaper with slippery slope with no teleports.

No, the outlier druid staff 3 should have been fixed not removing slippery slope based on false generalization.

No you're the one that is wrong. Teleports completely circumvents the effects of slippery slope therefore countering it. Movement skills in general assist the player getting from A to B but adjustments will need to be made. Dodging is also a powerful counter against slippery slope as the player can dodge at any time in any direction and not slide after the dodge.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

Guess I'll just keep linking this post until the children find another shiny to focus on.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/871459/#Comment_871459